NationStates Jolt Archive

Where, anywhere in the New Testament, does it say that the two Covenants are one?

Covenant One: God will provide to Abraham and his descendants "the land before [him]", and Abraham will circumsize all his offspring as a reminder of this. Later changed; God will provide that same land if Moses and his Hebrew people (all descendants of Abraham) follow a series of Commandments, known as the Law.

Covenant Two: Jesus promises all human beings "eternal life" if they will believe in God. He also mentions forgiving of sins and methods of prayer. It is important to note that he does NOT explicitly describe or start the ritual commonly known as the Sacrement of Communion (or the Eucharest) during his lifetime.

So, these two covenants are not at all linked, except they apparently refer to the same God. Jesus makes a reference to the Law saying that the greatest Commandment is "to love thy neighbor as thyself", although I cannot find that Commandment anywhere in the Old Testament.

Why do Christians feel that they have to accept the Jewish Law as their Law too? And if so, why just follow the first ten Commandments? What about the other 600+?

Please use some kind of Scripture to back your answers. I won't accept "Oh, it's just the Tradition that Catholics have..."

~ CD

Oh yeah...I also won't accept "Burn in ****ing hell, unbeliever!" or any variations on that theme. This isn't God Wars.

~ CD

Hello.

I am very familiar with the first covenant that you mentioned.

While the New Testament does mention and talk about recieving salvation through Jesus Chist - I am confussed about where you are finding this "second covenant" that you are refering to. Some scripture referenances will would be most helpfull for us to get an idea of what you are refering to.

I am a Christian. Though let it be know that there are probably near 100,000 different Christian denominations - all with somewhat different beliefs. That alone might make it hard to get a concise answer to your question as some Christian faiths might believe one thing, while others believe another.

As far as the Old Testament goes and the referance to "to love thy neighbor as thyself" that I believe can be found several times in the Old Testament. One such referance is Leviticus 19:18.


he does NOT explicitly describe or start the ritual commonly known as the Sacrement of Communion (or the Eucharest) during his lifetime

What do you mean by explicitly? I am not Catholic so my definition of Communion might not be exactly the same as you are looking for. But I believe Christ did indeed start the ordainance of the sacrament.

See:
Matthew 26:26-28
Mark 14:22-24
Luke 22:19-20

I hope that helps. Regarding your last Question:


Why do Christians feel that they have to accept the Jewish Law as their Law too? And if so, why just follow the first ten Commandments? What about the other 600+?


That in and of itself is a huge question and would take a while to answer. I dont have the time tonight. Keep in mind that regarding that last question - that Christianity is terribly divided over it (amoung many others). Some faiths argue that you need to keep nearly EVERY commandment in the OT. To others the OT might as well be blank except for Exodus Chapter 20. So you will have a hard time getting straight answers on that one - as there is no concensus throughout Christianity as a whole on handling that issue.

I hope all this has helped :)

-Narsiel

Thanks. I've never met and talked in person with a Christian who can seriously take this question, so I'm looking for a discussion instead of a straight answer. I can't get you any quotes right now, as my Bible has gone missing, but I can say these:

A covenant is a contract offered by one party to another party. Both sides have obligations contingent on the other side's cooperation. Jesus' covenant, informally, is a promise of eternal life to those who believe. That statement is typically interpreted to mean that all who believe in the holiness of Jesus and the God of the Jews as the God of all mankind will recieve some kind of holy eternal reward, usually depicted as Heaven.

I will have to check Leviticus 19:18 to see this for myself. I've looked for it before, but never found it.

Catholics (and a few other denominations) treat Communion or Eucharest as a prerequisite for eternal life. I can't find Scriptural evidence that Jesus intended to create a new ceremony to venerate himself before his followers when he spoke at his last supper. Those passages that you quote are very detailed accounts of what he did and said at that supper, but I can't seem to remember him telling the disciples to reenact it at gatherings. Again, I'll have to look again, but I'm much more sure on these passages.

And that last question is the one I'm really looking forward to getting answers for...but I may have to wait a while...

~ CD

I can help you a bit. A covenant is not a contract.

Also read Paul: There is some mention of which laws carry over and which do not.

Yeah I know what a covenant is... hmm. AFAIK there is nothing in the NT that is very explicit in saying this is the covenant. The OT pretty much says this is the covenant and then lays it out. Though of interesting note: The GREEK word often used for testament, Diatheke, also means Covenant. Therefore instead of "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" one might render it as "Old Covenant" and the "New Covenant".


Jesus' covenant, informally, is a promise of eternal life to those who believe. That statement is typically interpreted to mean that all who believe in the holiness of Jesus and the God of the Jews as the God of all mankind will recieve some kind of holy eternal reward, usually depicted as Heaven.


Yeah that is pretty much it. A good referance scripture might be John 3:16 - the keyword to that verse is "believe" which some Christian faiths argue over what we must do to "believe" or "be saved."


I can't seem to remember him telling the disciples to reenact it at gatherings


I believe Jesus gave his Apostles the commandment to continue this ordinance with these words (found in Luke 22:19):
"...this DO in rememberance of me."

Like alot of stuff in the Bible. That can be argued whether Christ meant it only for that single time, or as a commandment from there on out. DO combined with rememberance would seem to imply this as something to carry on after his death. Though I admit that might seem sketchy. Unfortunately the Bible isnt super clear on everything - which is why everyone argues and interprets it so diffrently.

That passage, along with the fact that all three synoptic authors include it - where they often leave out other occurances would seem to signify its importance.

Jesus also tells the people of Capernaum in John 6:53-54:
"..Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54) Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

That is pretty significant. How could his followers or disciples, eat of his flesh and drink of his blood? And more importantly, if they do not - they will not have eternal life?

Remember what Christ told his Apostles at the last supper?:
"Take, eat: this is my body."
"And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood..."

Then later: DO this in rememberance...

Despite what specifics we may want, i think what is there is adequate evidence. And regardless of what you and I might theorize - His Apostles believed it was a commandment and continued in performing the sacrament. The New Testament is full of examples where it mentions the members of the church partaking of it.

I got to get to bed. I probably wont be checking back on this forum for a few days in which its really likely this thread will be buried under pages and pages. I wont want to spend the time looking for it.

All The Pretty Colors should you continue to have questions, or want me to give you my personal belief on following OT commandments or not as a Christian, feel free to e-mail me at palidorsk@hotmail.com and I will respond to you in that manner :)

Hope this helps

You asked why the two covenant's are connected. Yes, as you said it'a because they are the tow revelations of the same God. The Old Testament, as well as setting out the laws that God had established for His people, showed how they, as sinful himan beings,were unable to keep these laws. As a result they had to make animal sacrifices to cover up these sins. However, they only covered up the sins, but didn't forgive them, and these people were only forgiven because they believed in the prophecies of the Old Testament that stretch all the way back to Genesis 3, that the Messiah would come who could live the perfect, flawless, life as Jesus did by not breaking any of the Old Testament laws, and take on their sins in death.

Jesus was a Jew, and clearly states that His life didn't mean that the Old Testament was now irrlevant, we are still obliged to follow that Law, and because we are still failing to do that we still need a Saviour. Therefore, Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (matthew 5:17). He was the embodiment of the law and the prophecies, and connects the two together.

I rambled a bit, but I hope that helps.

There is no differentiation with the covenant. It has always been honored and signified by blood. Circumcision of newborn males, for example, sheds blood and is symbolic in nature, as is the slaying and subsequent burning sacrifice of animals for remission of sins.

Perhaps the 'old' covenant may be what you're referring to as the animal sacrifice, and the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus being the initiation of the 'new' covenant. That is not two covenants, they are actually one. The first was a type or foreshadow of the one to come, which is the one of promise. Symbolically, the one of law versus the one of promise (also known as faith) is also found in Abraham's wife Sarah and her handmaiden Hagar, an Egyptian. Sarah was barren/infertile for many years, though the Almighty had promised a child to Abram, later known as Abraham, through her. Abraham had intercourse with Hagar at Sarah's request in order for them to fulfill the promise, thinking that childbearing was not possible with her because of her age. Yet she eventually bore Abraham a child. was Sarah sent Hagar away with her child inside her when she became jealous. The scripture records that "Sarai dealt hardly with her," and that Hagar "fled from her face." Genesis 16:6 KJV

She was eventually found by an angel at a fountain in the wilderness on the way to Shur. Today, that location is better known as Macca, or Mecca in English, is situated in Iraq and is reputed to have the fountain beneath the temple. The scripture records it was called "Beerlahairoi" and "it is between Kadesh and Bered." It is the most holy place in Islam. While there, the angel of the LORD promised her that "I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude." That child was named Ishmael, and is the forebear of today's Muslims. Sarah's child was named Isaac, and is the forebear of today's Jews.

The lineage of the covenant is through Abraham's child Isaac, the child of promise. Which is not to say that the Almighty does not bless Ishmael's descendants, because that was promised by the Angel. The covenant is that the Almighty would redeem His people with a savior. That person is Christ Jesus. Christ is the Greek for 'anointed' and Jesus was his name, just as Mike, Mary, Thomas or Sandy is a name.

The Genesis account in the Garden of Eden recounts the promise that the Almighty made saying "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15 KJV

The bruising of the heel refers to the crucifixion of Christ, whereas the bruising of the head refers to the ultimate destruction of the Evil One, the Father of Lies, also known as Satan. Speaking as a nurse, head injuries are almost always serious if not fatal, such as basal skull fractures, which is where the heel would strike the head of a serpent, most likely inflicting death. Also, seed is the male, whereas eggs are from the female. How then is it, that a woman should have seed? The answer is that Christ Jesus was the seed of woman, having been born immaculately, i.e. not through human-human sexual intercourse, but instead of the word of the Almighty.

The Law to which you refer is a shadow, albeit an imperfect one, of the promise of faith. One performed the act hoping for the result, yet not obtaining it. The esssence of the Law was making one in right standing with the Almighty through a series of acts or behaviors. With the resurrection of Christ Jesus, belief or faith in his name (e.g., the resurrection) is sufficient to obtain right standing with the Almighty; "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10

Actually there are quite a few covenants in the bible. Some like the one with Adam and Eve (not to eat the tree), with David, The mosaic covenants, some others.. and the last covenant set with Jesus.

I think most can be found in the writings of Paul, considering Paul was the one preaching to the christians, and gentiles.

I'm short of time, so I'll just briefly quote what I believe.
---------------------------------------------------------
Old Covenant (Usually when the bible talk about the old covenant) is the mosaic covenant. - The Law, and that if you obey the Law, you would be blessed, if not, you would be cursed.

The old covenant is of doing good works. That you do good, get good. Do bad.. YOUR GOING TO HELL!!!! FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!!

Notice, that everybody is going to hell. No one is righteous. Right after the laws were given, God commanded Moses to have the sacrifices. 5 different sacrifices.. one of them is sin offering, tresspass offering, peace offering, burn't offering, .. bla bla (can't remember the rest). That they are cleansed from their sins. But people always undershadow the importance of the sacrifices and glorifies the law.

Because what happens, is that man loves to prides himself in his ability to keep the law, (hence the pheresies, seducees bla bla). If you notice, Jesus always says a harsh word to the pheresies (brood of vipers), and to those who has "Holier than thou" attitudes. But to the sinners, the prostitutes, the tax collecters, the fishermans, Jesus always came with love and forgiveness.
---------------------------------------

New Covenant - Redemption through Christ Jesus. Whoever should believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Do good, do bad... as long you have Jesus, you are saved.

Romans 3:23-27

23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Galatians 2:16-21

16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18: For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19: For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

+ Alot more verses.

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Have fun arguing.. I'll be back maybe tomorrow to answer. :p Going out.

Greedy pigs has some excellent thoughts to share.

I thought I would point out however, that as I posted earlier - many Christians believe different things from others.

For some odd reason some Christians believe that the God of the OT was cruel and harsh and had no love for the children of men.

Then suddenly Christ comes and God is love. Suddenly God doesnt care about what you do. Suddenly all of the commandments go out the window. Just say you believe and its all good.

I think this contradicts the entire Gospel message from God contained in both the OT and NT.

Many churchs in fact just focus on several key verses about believing or having faith and contort them into such a way that all you must do is say some little prayer and you are "saved." I've seen numerous prayers like these printed on that backs of Bibles that have been given to me.

I believe they in essence ignore the true meaning of faith and believing.

In fact it is interesting that if we examine the life of Jesus that He himself promotes action rather than inaction.

Example:
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke chapter 10:
"26": He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

"27": And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

"28": And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this DO, and thou shalt live.

A few verses later after the lawyer tried to be tricky and Christ gave the parable of the Good Samaratin:

Christ instructs the man:
"37:" ...Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and DO thou likewise.

A few more examples: Christ took an occasion to make a lesson when he was told that His Mother and brothers wanted to see him but could not because of the crowd. What does he say?

"21": And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and DO it.

Wow so we actually need to DO what Christ has asked us to do? Shocking. You mean I cant just say some little prayer and Im off on my way to do whatever I want and Im saved? Apparently not.

There are SOO many other examples both from Christ himself and his Apostles later writings that I wont even attempt to share them all.

However, Paul was right in what he said. It is by the grace of God we are saved. Looking at what he said in historical context might help us out here. All of the previously quoted scriptures by Greedy Pig were part of the Pauline epistles. Many of Pauls converts were Jews. They had a hard time trying to understand the concept of Grace and what Christs atonement had done for them. As a result many often focused to much on "works" or "the law" and left Christ out of it. Paul wrote to correct this falasie (sp?). He reminded them that we are saved only by the Atonement of Christ and His goodness. We can perform good works all day long - and without Christ we are still damned. That is why Paul focuses so much on having Faith and Believing. But even taking faith and believing into context and looking at what it really means we will find that faith and believing themselves are verbs (action words O_o) and that a belief without doing is indeed not believing at all (in its truest sense).

I wish I had more time to provide examples but I dont. Perhaps later. However if you are interested I am sure you can run a google search of sorts and look at what actual Biblical schollars have said on Faith and Believing and the meaning that those greeks words behind them carry. But I think the Bible itself is enough evidence when we look at it as a whole and do not ignore what other scriptures have said.

Greedy Pig - sorry to use you as an example. You may very well recognize the importance of keeping the commandments. I was just simply reminded of many Christians I've met who misunderstand the epistles of Paul along with the teachings of Jesus.