NationStates Jolt Archive

I am sick of people declaring the poor in our society "have no drive." I found out otherwise in a very difficult and life-changing assignment for my Sociology 101 course.

For the assignment we are a single, 24 or 25 year old parent, with a 4 year old child. We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago.

Our assignment is to get to get a job to finance everything we need to live, which includes: housing, childcare, food, healthcare, utilities, etc.

We are not allowed to do anything illegal or degrading (like stripping).

For some generous reason, the professor allowed us to assume that we had a car or a bike, but if we had a car we had to pay the insurance and gas and everything. No, you can't sell the car. Or the bike. He also let us assume that we had a first month's security down payment for whatever apartment we find. You can agree that this is alot more than anyone in this situation has.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You have no family and no "connections." Good luck.

(Please continue to post#10 to read results before commenting, unless commenting on the assignment itself)

Is this America? Because if it is, I believe the phrase you need is "Work or die". Also, the child will be a major problem because aren't US schools private i.e. you have to pay? If so, you may have to rely on making friends with neighbours (25, child, no job? probably in an apartment block) and using them as babysitters. Get a job working as many hours possible in a fast food outlet/convenience store in the day, then, with what little funds you have after food, expenses etc. try going to night school for something like secretarial work.

Also, does the state provide any funding for the poor e.g. dole or equivalent?

I don't believe that poor people are in poverty simply because they're too lazy to get jobs. That is just an excuse not to provide aid, which mos people would do even if laziness wasn't a factor. A psychological explanation for our labelling is because most people want to believe that we get what we deserve, and therefore since we're hard-working, level-headed people, we don't have to worry about ending up like those pathetic creatures living on the streets, who obviously don't have priorities like we do. The declaration of, "Lazy! You did this to yourself!" is merely one of fear and self-reassurance that it can't happen to us. Yes, there are some fools out there who make no attempt to pull themselves out of their proverbial pits, but for the most part I can't imagine anyone not at least trying to change their lives.

And no, Tribes; most schools in America are public. In some areas nearly every school is private, but for the most part our education is free.

Is this America? Because if it is, I believe the phrase you need is "Work or die". Also, the child will be a major problem because aren't US schools private i.e. you have to pay? If so, you may have to rely on making friends with neighbours (25, child, no job? probably in an apartment block) and using them as babysitters. Get a job working as many hours possible in a fast food outlet/convenience store in the day, then, with what little funds you have after food, expenses etc. try going to night school for something like secretarial work.

Also, does the state provide any funding for the poor e.g. dole or equivalent?

I like the phrase "work or die"! Havent heard that before.
IMO everybody deserves a basic standard of living, whether they're too lazy to work or not is irrelavent - nobody deserves to be homeless & live on the street. That seems to be one of the points of the 'Lazy' arguement; these people actually deserve to be there - fankly I cant think of many opinions less compassionate and more unpleasant.

K-12 is free in the US. its college that you pay for
and day care/preschool for children under 5 (some places have kindergarten for 4 year olds) if you are very poor your kid can go to free half day preschool called head start.

there are lots of programs for poor people in the US. but this thread is about what it takes to be OFF those programs if you have just a highschool education and little work experience.

it IS tough. if you have "wasted" your life up to age 25. i dont know what you are supposed to have been doing since you graduated highschool 7-8 years ago. but if you woke up one day and found yourself 25 years old with a 4 year old child and no work experience you are gonna have trouble getting started. life is expensive and minimum wage isnt designed to be enough to support ONE person let alone 2.

this is why we need programs designed to help those who want to improve their lives. its a good investment in the future.

I like the phrase "work or die"! Havent heard that before.
IMO everybody deserves a basic standard of living, whether they're too lazy to work or not is irrelavent - nobody deserves to be homeless & live on the street. That seems to be one of the points of the 'Lazy' arguement; these people actually deserve to be there - fankly I cant think of many opinions less compassionate and more unpleasant.
Ah, the UK - decent minimum wage, semi-decent support for the unemployed...shame about a shat government

Aren't US schools private i.e. you have to pay?
No . . .

I am sick of people declaring the poor in our society "have no drive." I found out otherwise in a very difficult and life-changing assignment for my Sociology 101 course.

It took a Sociology course to gain perspective and sympathy?
Yeesh, you're dense.

And no, Tribes; most schools in America are public. In some areas nearly every school is private, but for the most part our education is free.

For the most part, our education is crap, whether private or public...
And inner city public schools are... well... incomprehensibly horrid.

(If you would like to follow along with a map or something, this is in Suffolk County, on Long Island [aka NYC Metro area])

And so we started. I started by looking in the classifieds Newsday for apartments. Forget it, it took over 8 hours to weed through any possibilities, just to find that there were no apartments available, less than $950 that would allow a child.

Now as for my job, I aimed at getting a job at a Starbucks because they give full health benefits to employees that work half time or more. Plus the starting pay was very fair for someone with no skills, 7.25/hr. And another reason for choosing them was that I knew that almost anywhere I lived, there would be one near by. But this turned out to be less easy than I thought.

After over 6 hours (after the 8 hours I spent with Newsday) of sifting through Yankee Traders and Penny Savers, calling apartments and Starbucks alike, I lucked out. I found one Starbucks that would hire someone full-time (with flexible hours too!) in East Setauket. Coincidentily, the cheapest apartment I could find that allowed a child was also in East Setauket! This was particularly lucky since I had to (as a person in this situation would) call during non-business hours, since we would be working/in-school during business hours.

So for $700/mo I had an apartment, and I was earning $870 after tax plus health benefits by working full time, 8-4 Mon. to Fri. at starbucks. To be honest, I just assumed for my own sanity's sake that starbucks would actually give me those hours.

Great, 170 dollar profit! Err... wait... expenses like food and.... kid! Darn! So back to the classifieds where I found a lady in Ronkonkama who ran a daycare in her home for $4/hr. Really cheap actually. So I would have to drop my kid off at 7:30, and pick up at 4:30. (Ronkonkoma is probably a longer distance to travel than that, but f-it.) Okay, so 9 hours a day, at 4 dollars an hour, everyday I work at starbucks...$720!


So I have 150 dollars to cover everything else... at least healthcare is covered (estimated at 200 dollar value). So in two words... another job.

Oh yeah, I need a car to bring my child to daycare, so theres another $200 a month for insurance and basic gas. So now I'm -50 dollars. Theres not alot you can buy with -50 dollars, I can tell you.

Here I stretched a bit, since I had worked at the restaurant Dockside over the summer, I knew their wages and hiring practices. Basically, all I could get was 3 decent nights a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, from 6-closing (average of 5 hours a night) to average the earnings at $125 a night. So after tax, that brought in an additional $1125 dollars during the month.

I was able to get a babysitter to come to my apartment for those times for $6/hr. My mom said that I was assuming the babysitter would show up. I didn't care. So that child care cost 270 a month.

I planned to spend my weekends with my child at a library or other public facility.

So here is a chart of the Incomes/exenses:

$1995 :Total income per month
$870 : Starbucks Income
$1125 : Dockside Income

$1940 :Total expenses per month
$700 : Housing
$720 : Child Care during Starbucks
$270 : Child Care during Dockside
$200 : Automobile insurance and gas
$10 : Phone (Virgin Mobile Pay-as-you-go)
$10 : Clothing (Thrift store I can get clothing for 50 cents to $1 a piece
$15 : Appliances (2 Toothbrushes, toothpaste, 2 rolls toilet paper, soap, etc)
$65 : Food (I worked it out completely, this is feasible)

(Lets just say ramen noodles are a large part of my diet, costing 11.25 for a months worth. Then add on some vitamins and some bananas)

So after working 55 hours a week, I'll 55 dollars left over, right? Because as we all know, nothing ever breaks or goes wrong, and no one ever gets sick. And geez, look at my food cost. Odds are my professor is going to make me use all the extra money towards my food and appliance budget. Although I really wish I could afford a sleeping bag for me and my kid to sleep on.

It took a Sociology course to gain perspective and sympathy?
Yeesh, you're dense.

Hey, I appreciate the conclusion you jumped to.

It was life changing because previously I was giving equal weight to both sides of the arguement. Now I've actually experienced it more.

But seriously, your snide comments are really appropriate.

so NOW you should start to find out the government programs that will help you LIVE on those 2 jobs

earned income credit will add a couple thousand dollars a year

the state may well have a program that will subsidize daycare.

your 4 year old should be in headstart or perhaps setauket has 4 year old kindergarten

subsizied housing can reduce your rent to a reasonable rate. you have to find a landlord who is enrolled. or you could try public housing *shudder*

food stamps or WIC will help you get NUTRITIOUS food for your child. you can subsist on ramen noodles for a while, your child needs real food, her brain is developing

does the health insurance come with the job or do you have to pay extra? medicaid will cover your child if you meet income guidelines.

and you should look into education programs that will get you qualified for a better paying job. sign up for the above programs, dump the second job and get some skills!

bump

so NOW you should start to find out the government programs that will help you LIVE on those 2 jobs

earned income credit will add a couple thousand dollars a year

the state may well have a program that will subsidize daycare.

your 4 year old should be in headstart or perhaps setauket has 4 year old kindergarten

subsizied housing can reduce your rent to a reasonable rate. you have to find a landlord who is enrolled. or you could try public housing *shudder*

food stamps or WIC will help you get NUTRITIOUS food for your child. you can subsist on ramen noodles for a while, your child needs real food, her brain is developing

does the health insurance come with the job or do you have to pay extra? medicaid will cover your child if you meet income guidelines.

and you should look into education programs that will get you qualified for a better paying job. sign up for the above programs, dump the second job and get some skills!

Last comment first... get some skills? Easier said than done. Skills require time and money.

And yes I'm glad you brought this up. You are correct in that some programs do exist. For example the subsidized housing you are probably thinking of is Section 8. I also looked into food stamps. This is Long Island, where people think no poor exist, so no, there isn't free daycare. The kindergarden starts at age 5, which will be a great burden off my shoulders. ($720 of burden!) There do exist homeless shelters, none near Setauket, but there are a few. However, lets just say that staying in a homeless shelter is a gutsy move. Its not safe enough for me, let alone me and my 4 year old. Back to government programs: Government programs would and can help. However it takes several months to be accepted to any of them. And there are extreme limits on income. I have to make less than 1000 a month for Section 8, and less than 950 for food stamps. Out of the students in my class, only 1 was able to meet the requirements (and did).

The government also makes it difficult to find some information in order to reduce the number of people applying for programs. I'm not saying they are trying to not really pay out, but they are looking for only serious applicants.

*bump*

Last comment first... get some skills? Easier said than done. Skills require time and money.

And yes I'm glad you brought this up. You are correct in that some programs do exist. For example the subsidized housing you are probably thinking of is Section 8. I also looked into food stamps. This is Long Island, where people think no poor exist, so no, there isn't free daycare. The kindergarden starts at age 5, which will be a great burden off my shoulders. ($720 of burden!) There do exist homeless shelters, none near Setauket, but there are a few. However, lets just say that staying in a homeless shelter is a gutsy move. Its not safe enough for me, let alone me and my 4 year old. Back to government programs: Government programs would and can help. However it takes several months to be accepted to any of them. And there are extreme limits on income. I have to make less than 1000 a month for Section 8, and less than 950 for food stamps. Out of the students in my class, only 1 was able to meet the requirements (and did).

The government also makes it difficult to find some information in order to reduce the number of people applying for programs. I'm not saying they are trying to not really pay out, but they are looking for only serious applicants.
whoa
how does ANYONE in new york get off welfare? those income limits are WAY too low for an area as expensive as yours. the gap between when you get off welfare (that pays for almost everything) and when you make enough to survive is way too big for many people to be able to do it. no skills = no chance where you live.

whoa
how does ANYONE in new york get off welfare? those income limits are WAY too low for an area as expensive as yours. the gap between when you get off welfare (that pays for almost everything) and when you make enough to survive is way too big for many people to be able to do it. no skills = no chance where you live.

Yes. It should be noted that in the inner cities there is some more "affordable" housing. But that is even worse for poor because now its poor people concentrated together, really leaving no way out (scarce jobs, no role models, etc.).

I think one of the points of the people who call the poor lazy is that they front-loaded their lives with less work and expenditures by not going to college or technical school or something, and that is why they are in such a situation where they lack any marketable skills. (Besides burger flipping)

I think one of the points of the people who call the poor lazy is that they front-loaded their lives with less work and expenditures by not going to college or technical school or something, and that is why they are in such a situation where they lack any marketable skills. (Besides burger flipping)

Yes, most of those people don't realize how desperately these people need money and usually can't afford to go to school either moneywise or timewise.

Also, to most, they have no examples that live near them of people that have actually gone to college.

bump

I would take out a student loan and go to community college. Then I would work my ass off and get into a four-year school.

You'd get a housing subsidy and food stamps. Go do more research.

You'd get a housing subsidy and food stamps. Go do more research.

Did you even read anything he wrote? He tried to get food stamps and housing, but he made too much money.

Did you even read anything he wrote? He tried to get food stamps and housing, but he made too much money.


Uhuh, I did.

Food stamp eligibilty starts at around 1,300 for a single parent family, also ther are in fact low income housing projects. Give up the second kob, move into one drop the second job and take WIC as well.

You don't know everything you know.

I would take out a student loan and go to community college. Then I would work my ass off and get into a four-year school.

Theoretically feasible... kindof... not really. My parents are divorced, and my mom was able to get her associates degree (2yr degree) at the local community college in 6 years. Then again, we were with my dad 49.9% of the time, and my mom was getting child support on top of the job she had.

Uhuh, I did.

Food stamp eligibilty starts at around 1,300 for a single parent family, also ther are in fact low income housing projects. Give up the second kob, move into one drop the second job and take WIC as well.

You don't know everything you know.

So you know more than him, the person who researched this thoroughly. Perhaps, and this is just a crazy, crazy thought, food stamp eligibility starts at different income levels in different locations?

Cute little phrase there. Does it apply to you as well?

Uhuh, I did.

Food stamp eligibilty starts at around 1,300 for a single parent family, also ther are in fact low income housing projects. Give up the second kob, move into one drop the second job and take WIC as well.

You don't know everything you know.

Food stamp eligibility depends on where you live. Here it is 950. I wouldn't be able to afford dropping any one of my jobs either.

I hate to throw your own words at you, but you don't know everything you know, either.

Food stamp eligibility depends on where you live. Here it is 950. I wouldn't be able to afford dropping any one of my jobs either.

I hate to throw your own words at you, but you don't know everything you know, either.

It's $1313, for a household of two in NY.

That took me all of thirty seconds to find out.

Also, there is eligibilty for low income housing - not section 8 BTW.

And no one yet has mentioned WIC checks.

Food stamp eligibility depends on where you live. Here it is 950. I wouldn't be able to afford dropping any one of my jobs either.

I hate to throw your own words at you, but you don't know everything you know, either.

It's $1313, for a household of two in NY.

That took me all of thirty seconds to find out.

Also, there is eligibilty for low income housing - not section 8 BTW.

And no one yet has mentioned WIC checks.

Ah, the UK - decent minimum wage, semi-decent support for the unemployed...shame about a shat government

Decent minimum wage?

No. Really, no. If you do a 40 hour week on the minimum wage you can just about scrape rent, food, and transport to/from work. Bear in mind that most minimum wage jobs are in places like warehouses - the second most dangerous profession, next to army soldier. So it's not like warehouse workers are lazy good for nothing bums. Trust me, I've done my time dekitting trailers, stacking shelves and order picking (and dodging fork lifts, and jumping clear of improperly-parked trailers toppling, and dodged tons of falling stock, and..).

You may, if you're lucky, get a mortgage on a falling-down terrace in a toxic waste part of town. Don't even think of holidays, any holiday money will be going into your pension fund. Oh, that's if pensions are going to be worth jack by the time any of us retire.

This is based on prices in the North West. If you're living in London or the South East... forget it.

I do agree with the shat government though.

For the assignment we are a single, 24 or 25 year old parent, with a 4 year old child. We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago.This oversimplifies the "problem." Problem #1 comes from becoming a single parent at age 21, with little to no skills and only a high school diploma. You see, most (not all) of the people I know, who have become single parents by age 21, don't have any marketable skills, mainly because they dropped out of high school. A more realistic scenario would have included you being a 24 or 25 year old, with a 7 or 8 year old child, which would at least give you an excuse for not possessing any marketable skills, because you dropped out of high school, and could not attend college or any other vo-tech program. I can almost guarantee (sp) you, if you eliminate the "teenage single mom" factor, the scenario you're working on has a smaller probability.

Our assignment is to get to get a job to finance everything we need to live, which includes: housing, childcare, food, healthcare, utilities, etc.

We are not allowed to do anything illegal or degrading (like stripping).I wonder if joining the military is considered "illegal or degrading" in this scenario...

For some generous reason, the professor allowed us to assume that we had a car or a bike, but if we had a car we had to pay the insurance and gas and everything. No, you can't sell the car. Or the bike. He also let us assume that we had a first month's security down payment for whatever apartment we find. You can agree that this is alot more than anyone in this situation has.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You have no family and no "connections."More unrealistic assumptions. Not that they can't happen (after all, I have seen plenty of people who live in abject poverty in the projects, yet somehow manage to have one or two cars, with the requisite massive stereo system and rims and ...,) however, a car is absolutely optional in that kind of situation. And, if you're starting to look for a way to make ends meet, with some of the extra assumptions you list, how can you have a deposit for a place to live???

I am sick of people declaring the poor in our society "have no drive." I found out otherwise in a very difficult and life-changing assignment for my Sociology 101 course.

For the assignment we are a single, 24 or 25 year old parent, with a 4 year old child. We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago.

Our assignment is to get to get a job to finance everything we need to live, which includes: housing, childcare, food, healthcare, utilities, etc.

We are not allowed to do anything illegal or degrading (like stripping).

For some generous reason, the professor allowed us to assume that we had a car or a bike, but if we had a car we had to pay the insurance and gas and everything. No, you can't sell the car. Or the bike. He also let us assume that we had a first month's security down payment for whatever apartment we find. You can agree that this is alot more than anyone in this situation has.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You have no family and no "connections." Good luck.

(Please continue to post#10 to read results before commenting, unless commenting on the assignment itself)

No, by now you're almost a lost cause. Obviously your life is now hard. Do I feel pity for you? No. You have no skills, no training, and no education after your highschool diploma. Your fault, you should have gotten an education or training of some sort. Don't tell me that you couldn't help your situation. You have a kid? Your fault, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant or gotten someone else pregnant without thinking about the rammifications of childbirth. Don't tell me it was an accident either. If you can't support it, keep your sexual experiences to your computer screen and your right hand. You obviously made life-effecting choices that turned out bad. It's not my job to feel sorry for you, and it's not the government's job to support you. Instead of sitting around complaining like a good number of people in situations like these do, get up and do something. Get the training, get a job - any job. There are things to be done...now do them.

No, by now you're almost a lost cause. Obviously your life is now hard. Do I feel pity for you? No. You have no skills, no training, and no education after your highschool diploma. Your fault, you should have gotten an education or training of some sort. Don't tell me that you couldn't help your situation. You have a kid? Your fault, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant or gotten someone else pregnant without thinking about the rammifications of childbirth. Don't tell me it was an accident either. If you can't support it, keep your sexual experiences to your computer screen and your right hand. You obviously made life-effecting choices that turned out bad. It's not my job to feel sorry for you, and it's not the government's job to support you. Instead of sitting around complaining like a good number of people in situations like these do, get up and do something. Get the training, get a job - any job. There are things to be done...now do them.
I definitely agree with you. The "working poor" are so (if they actually do exist,) due to crappy choices they have made in the past.

I wonder if joining the military is considered "illegal or degrading" in this scenario...

Ah...didn't even think of that. The military can put you through college, while at the same time giving you a salary.

Yes, most of those people don't realize how desperately these people need money and usually can't afford to go to school either moneywise or timewise.

Also, to most, they have no examples that live near them of people that have actually gone to college.
Besides their teachers? Oh wait, so many poor people think that their teachers are insensitive pricks because they want them to work! Oh my God! How Cruel!

Ah...didn't even think of that. The military can put you through college, while at the same time giving you a salary....and a house on-post, if need be, with free (or cheap) utilities; and military folks usually get cheaper car insurance rates; and they get free medical services...

But far too many poor see their way out through booze or drugs. Crime is often seen as a method to make a quick buck. Gangs are common in poor urban areas. We need to encourage systemic social change in the school system, starting out in the very beginning.

...and a house on-post, if need be, with free (or cheap) utilities; and military folks usually get cheaper car insurance rates; and they get free medical services...

On top of that you get into excellent shape in training which will benefit you in the future by installing proper exercise habits into your mind...and that pension plan if you stay in long enough...oh my oh my...

Joining the military would be a great idea. The benefits are wonderful. (I tried joining, but I didn't pass MEPS.)


The entire assignment reminds me of my sister. My family wasn't poor, but we definitely weren't the best off. When she turned 17 she started drinking and by the time she was 22 my parents had kicked her out of the house and cut her off financially. She had a full year of college under her belt (because she was kicked out with academic suspension), but no real education after high school. She now works full time at a movie rental store. She does not have a child, but she is paying off student loans and a heart surgery (she was born with a 10mm hole in her heart, parents aren't paying for that either).

It looked like my parents were going to have to let her move back into the house until she had her heart surgery. When she started her surgery, she was given instructions not to drink any alcoholic beverages. She listened to the doc (we were all surprised), and a month later she found she wasn't strained for money anymore. She now pays all her bills early and is on good terms with our parents again.

My point of the story (for all of you too lazy to read and find it yourself) is that her financial situation was bad only because she didn't budget accordingly. These people aren't born 25 with a 4 year old, they make many mistakes that lead up to them being uneducated single parents.



No, by now you're almost a lost cause. Obviously your life is now hard. Do I feel pity for you? No. You have no skills, no training, and no education after your highschool diploma. Your fault, you should have gotten an education or training of some sort. Don't tell me that you couldn't help your situation. You have a kid? Your fault, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant or gotten someone else pregnant without thinking about the rammifications of childbirth. Don't tell me it was an accident either. If you can't support it, keep your sexual experiences to your computer screen and your right hand. You obviously made life-effecting choices that turned out bad. It's not my job to feel sorry for you, and it's not the government's job to support you. Instead of sitting around complaining like a good number of people in situations like these do, get up and do something. Get the training, get a job - any job. There are things to be done...now do them.

My Hero! :)

...and finally...before I get people telling me that I don't understand how it is...

My dad owns three Mercedes-Benz dealerships. Needless to say, I don't have money problems. My mom on the other hand, came from a poor family of 10 kids. That isn't my story though. My family prides themselves on making good decisions. Not that we sit around and talk to each other about it but you know what I mean. Better than that, we pride ourselves on rebounding from poor decisions if they come up.

My cousin got pregnant when she was a senior. She finished highschool. She worked two jobs while going to school. You know what? She's not that bad off right now.

I was born in Russia and I'm 75% Russian. I moved to America in 1991. In what...13 years now...my dad went from an immigrant, granted a college educated one, to a highly successful salesman.

It can happen people. You need the drive and the desire.

Immigrants are usually more driven than normal citizens.

Immigrants are usually more driven than normal citizens.

lol....great....now I'm a stereotype...

My cousin wasn't an immigrant though. My mom was born in the US to a Russian dad and a British mom. Her family's American by birth.

Theoretically feasible... kindof... not really. My parents are divorced, and my mom was able to get her associates degree (2yr degree) at the local community college in 6 years. Then again, we were with my dad 49.9% of the time, and my mom was getting child support on top of the job she had.

What's that have to do with student loans? If you took them out, you could go full-time

(If you would like to follow along with a map or something, this is in Suffolk County, on Long Island [aka NYC Metro area])

And so we started. I started by looking in the classifieds Newsday for apartments. Forget it, it took over 8 hours to weed through any possibilities, just to find that there were no apartments available, less than $950 that would allow a child.

Now as for my job, I aimed at getting a job at a Starbucks because they give full health benefits to employees that work half time or more. Plus the starting pay was very fair for someone with no skills, 7.25/hr. And another reason for choosing them was that I knew that almost anywhere I lived, there would be one near by. But this turned out to be less easy than I thought.

After over 6 hours (after the 8 hours I spent with Newsday) of sifting through Yankee Traders and Penny Savers, calling apartments and Starbucks alike, I lucked out. I found one Starbucks that would hire someone full-time (with flexible hours too!) in East Setauket. Coincidentily, the cheapest apartment I could find that allowed a child was also in East Setauket! This was particularly lucky since I had to (as a person in this situation would) call during non-business hours, since we would be working/in-school during business hours.

So for $700/mo I had an apartment, and I was earning $870 after tax plus health benefits by working full time, 8-4 Mon. to Fri. at starbucks. To be honest, I just assumed for my own sanity's sake that starbucks would actually give me those hours.

Great, 170 dollar profit! Err... wait... expenses like food and.... kid! Darn! So back to the classifieds where I found a lady in Ronkonkama who ran a daycare in her home for $4/hr. Really cheap actually. So I would have to drop my kid off at 7:30, and pick up at 4:30. (Ronkonkoma is probably a longer distance to travel than that, but f-it.) Okay, so 9 hours a day, at 4 dollars an hour, everyday I work at starbucks...$720!


So I have 150 dollars to cover everything else... at least healthcare is covered (estimated at 200 dollar value). So in two words... another job.

Oh yeah, I need a car to bring my child to daycare, so theres another $200 a month for insurance and basic gas. So now I'm -50 dollars. Theres not alot you can buy with -50 dollars, I can tell you.

Here I stretched a bit, since I had worked at the restaurant Dockside over the summer, I knew their wages and hiring practices. Basically, all I could get was 3 decent nights a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, from 6-closing (average of 5 hours a night) to average the earnings at $125 a night. So after tax, that brought in an additional $1125 dollars during the month.

I was able to get a babysitter to come to my apartment for those times for $6/hr. My mom said that I was assuming the babysitter would show up. I didn't care. So that child care cost 270 a month.

I planned to spend my weekends with my child at a library or other public facility.

So here is a chart of the Incomes/exenses:

$1995 :Total income per month
$870 : Starbucks Income
$1125 : Dockside Income

$1940 :Total expenses per month
$700 : Housing
$720 : Child Care during Starbucks
$270 : Child Care during Dockside
$200 : Automobile insurance and gas
$10 : Phone (Virgin Mobile Pay-as-you-go)
$5 : Clothing (Thrift store I can get clothing for 50 cents to a dollar a piece
$15 : Appliances (2 Toothbrushes, toothpaste, 2 rolls toilet paper, soap, etc)
$25 : Food (YES, I CLAIM ITS POSSIBLE as opposed to my other classmates)

(Lets just say ramen noodles are a large part of my diet, costing 11.25 for a months worth. Then add on some vitamins and some bananas)

So after working 55 hours a week, I'll 55 dollars left over, right? Because as we all know, nothing ever breaks or goes wrong, and no one ever gets sick. And geez, look at my food cost. Odds are my professor is going to make me use all the extra money towards my food and appliance budget. Although I really wish I could afford a sleeping bag for me and my kid to sleep on.
Good research … all I got to say is OUCH up here a studio apt is 225 a month (not including electricity … but heating and the likes included)
And a full 4 bedroom living room kitchen NICE apt is just under 7 lol

For two people you could get by a LOT cheaper

Wow

But good research

What's that have to do with student loans? If you took them out, you could go full-time

Oh yeah, cause as long as my mom's tuition is paid, my brothers won't need to eat.

Good research … all I got to say is OUCH up here a studio apt is 225 a month (not including electricity … but heating and the likes included)
And a full 4 bedroom living room kitchen NICE apt is just under 7 lol

For two people you could get by a LOT cheaper

Wow

But good research

Up where? Maybe I should consider it. ALso btw, remember my numbers were USD.

And a studio apartment isn't enough space for a parent and child, child protection services would call you on it. Cheapest studio I found was 600.

This oversimplifies the "problem." Problem #1 comes from becoming a single parent at age 21, with little to no skills and only a high school diploma. You see, most (not all) of the people I know, who have become single parents by age 21, don't have any marketable skills, mainly because they dropped out of high school. A more realistic scenario would have included you being a 24 or 25 year old, with a 7 or 8 year old child, which would at least give you an excuse for not possessing any marketable skills, because you dropped out of high school, and could not attend college or any other vo-tech program. I can almost guarantee (sp) you, if you eliminate the "teenage single mom" factor, the scenario you're working on has a smaller probability.

I wonder if joining the military is considered "illegal or degrading" in this scenario...

More unrealistic assumptions. Not that they can't happen (after all, I have seen plenty of people who live in abject poverty in the projects, yet somehow manage to have one or two cars, with the requisite massive stereo system and rims and ...,) however, a car is absolutely optional in that kind of situation. And, if you're starting to look for a way to make ends meet, with some of the extra assumptions you list, how can you have a deposit for a place to live???

My first idea was to join the military, but my professor asked what would happen to the child if I'm sent to Iraq. I said I'd join the National Guard, but he said that 1/3 of Guardsmen are being sent too.

So yeah actually I found the military to be the best option and I would reccoment it to other people in this situation, especially because most others have family. HOWEVER, for this project we had no family, and if I was killed where would my child go? I think the stat for child abuse in foster care is like 25%.


And like I said, those last things were generous assumptions. Basically the accumulation of out 7 years since high school I guess.

No, by now you're almost a lost cause. Obviously your life is now hard. Do I feel pity for you? No. You have no skills, no training, and no education after your highschool diploma. Your fault, you should have gotten an education or training of some sort. Don't tell me that you couldn't help your situation. You have a kid? Your fault, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant or gotten someone else pregnant without thinking about the rammifications of childbirth. Don't tell me it was an accident either. If you can't support it, keep your sexual experiences to your computer screen and your right hand. You obviously made life-effecting choices that turned out bad. It's not my job to feel sorry for you, and it's not the government's job to support you. Instead of sitting around complaining like a good number of people in situations like these do, get up and do something. Get the training, get a job - any job. There are things to be done...now do them.

Its nice to see that you don't believe anyone in society's lower class deserves a chance.

Whats worse is that you don't even go on to read the results. You somehow assume my assignment was to complain. Please, I ask you, and dare you, to actually read my results and point out where I'm "complaining."

I definitely agree with you. The "working poor" are so (if they actually do exist,) due to crappy choices they have made in the past.

A book came out recently, called "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America." They put the number of single working moms at 4000000. I'm sure thats really an exaggeration of the number zero.

I think the point of the assignement should be to teach people NOT to make stupid decisions, not how hard it is to live if you made the stupid decisions.

But in my psych class we had a similar assignment. We did a marriage project, and we had to deal with all aspects of life. We had some cash left over, and we skipped out on cable TV. As such we had about 100-200 dollars left over each month. We invested it in some lower priced but rising stocks. And over 6 months, well, we were making more than anyone else in the class.

Besides their teachers? Oh wait, so many poor people think that their teachers are insensitive pricks because they want them to work! Oh my God! How Cruel!

Because inner city schools are the greatest.[/Sarcasm] We've studied how more times than not: middle class teachers look down on their lower class students as lost causes.

Because inner city schools are the greatest.[/Sarcasm] We've studied how more times than not: middle class teachers look down on their lower class students as lost causes.
Then we need to teach the teachers not to look down on the lower class students. Systemic change man, systemic change.

I think the point of the assignement should be to teach people NOT to make stupid decisions, not how hard it is to live if you made the stupid decisions.

The professor told us the point of the assignment was to show how hard it is to get out of poverty.

Why would they wait until college to tell kids that they should get an education?

Then we need to teach the teachers not to look down on the lower class students. Systemic change man, systemic change.

Yeah, that was one of the suggestions of the article. You may find it interesting, I'll give you the reference if you're interested.

The professor told us the point of the assignment was to show how hard it is to get out of poverty.

Why would they wait until college to tell kids that they should get an education?
the admittedly elite suburban public school I went to taught us that from the first grade. We need to do the same thing at all schools.

I think the point of the assignement should be to teach people NOT to make stupid decisions, not how hard it is to live if you made the stupid decisions.

But in my psych class we had a similar assignment. We did a marriage project, and we had to deal with all aspects of life. We had some cash left over, and we skipped out on cable TV. As such we had about 100-200 dollars left over each month. We invested it in some lower priced but rising stocks. And over 6 months, well, we were making more than anyone else in the class.

Interesting, sounds like a project I'd much rather do. Many students in my class found as I did that having a roommate or spouse or any other income or even just an independent would make the project so much easier. Child care wouldn't be nearly as strenuous. Thinking it over, if I had say a wife that could take care of the kid, after the costs of the wife, I would have had more than 200 dollars with which to do things. What were the givens of the project? You were yourselves, 25 year olds, grad students, what?

Also remember though, stock investments is akin to gambling, and good investments requires smart decisions. The people in our situation would not have had access to investment education. (Although during my persons weekends, which I would plan to spend at librarys with my kid, I could research stock investments. Then again, after reworking my food numbers today, and my clothing numbers, I only had 10 dollars profit. Not much to start and account, not make but perhaps one trade of a penny stock per month.)

the admittedly elite suburban public school I went to taught us that from the first grade. We need to do the same thing at all schools.

Surely, I agree that massive education reform is needed. If it were up to me, I would increase the funding to those schools by slashing the offense budget.

Edit: On another note, unfortunantely you're not always sure that lower class parents will support the children going to college. Admittedly, I know especially recently many lower class parents put this at top priotity for their children because they know what it will get them. However this is not the case for all parents, and while student loans can help, they don't always pay room and board, and some community colleges (like the local one here) don't have dorms to live in. Thus, No dorm access + lower class parents = Kid goes out and gets a job. So yes after all this its possible for the kid to work and take a class or two at a time if absolutely nothing else goes wrong. But its important to note that at that rate it will take about 6 years to get an associates degree (which means about 12 for a bachelors). So the person would be about 30 years old at this point. So the person finally has the education he/she needs at 30. (And this assuming they've never made one mistake, ever) They've been much too busy to establish any relationships, and the pool is closing up for them, so I guess they better hurry up and get married. Especially since women should really have babies after a certain age, about 40.

bump

I am sick of people declaring the poor in our society "have no drive." I found out otherwise in a very difficult and life-changing assignment for my Sociology 101 course.

For the assignment we are a single, 24 or 25 year old parent, with a 4 year old child. We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago.

Our assignment is to get to get a job to finance everything we need to live, which includes: housing, childcare, food, healthcare, utilities, etc.

We are not allowed to do anything illegal or degrading (like stripping).

For some generous reason, the professor allowed us to assume that we had a car or a bike, but if we had a car we had to pay the insurance and gas and everything. No, you can't sell the car. Or the bike. He also let us assume that we had a first month's security down payment for whatever apartment we find. You can agree that this is alot more than anyone in this situation has.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You have no family and no "connections." Good luck.

(Please continue to post#10 to read results before commenting, unless commenting on the assignment itself)
That sounds like a really cool assignment. Did you actually have to apply to get a job, or was it just theoretical?

No, by now you're almost a lost cause. Obviously your life is now hard. Do I feel pity for you? No. You have no skills, no training, and no education after your highschool diploma. Your fault, you should have gotten an education or training of some sort. Don't tell me that you couldn't help your situation. You have a kid? Your fault, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant or gotten someone else pregnant without thinking about the rammifications of childbirth. Don't tell me it was an accident either. If you can't support it, keep your sexual experiences to your computer screen and your right hand. You obviously made life-effecting choices that turned out bad. It's not my job to feel sorry for you, and it's not the government's job to support you. Instead of sitting around complaining like a good number of people in situations like these do, get up and do something. Get the training, get a job - any job. There are things to be done...now do them.
Wow. You're an arsehole even to people in hypothetical situations.

Wow. You're an arsehole even to people in hypothetical situations.
How's he an asshole (using half german expressions is silly, go all the way)? He's saying that people should take care of themselves.

That sounds like a really cool assignment. Did you actually have to apply to get a job, or was it just theoretical?

We were really supposed to apply for the job under the false pretenses, and then when we were accepted, we had to decline it. However, its easy to realize that we would have had to go for an interview or at least get the application and hand in the application in person, which would have thrown everyone off. Plus false SS#s and everything... so the students basically decided, and the professor accepted, that we call the place, tell them our situation (the relevent information I mean, of course) and ask if we were likely to get the job. I felt bad when the places that said yes said they'd like to hire me, and they told me what hours they were in and everything in order to get an application. I had to say things like "well I'm just checking my options..." etc

...and finally...before I get people telling me that I don't understand how it is...

My dad owns three Mercedes-Benz dealerships. Needless to say, I don't have money problems. My mom on the other hand, came from a poor family of 10 kids. That isn't my story though. My family prides themselves on making good decisions. Not that we sit around and talk to each other about it but you know what I mean. Better than that, we pride ourselves on rebounding from poor decisions if they come up.

My cousin got pregnant when she was a senior. She finished highschool. She worked two jobs while going to school. You know what? She's not that bad off right now.

I was born in Russia and I'm 75% Russian. I moved to America in 1991. In what...13 years now...my dad went from an immigrant, granted a college educated one, to a highly successful salesman.

It can happen people. You need the drive and the desire.And in the case of your dad, a college education.

No doubt there are people who can triumph despite overwhelming circumstances, but you neglect a large majority of people who do not. Technically, it's within my power to become Prime Minister, but I don't think its likely. Also, you neglect health problems, not to mention the depression that I'd imagine would result from spending a long period of time in abject poverty. In fact, all you have is one piece of unverifiable anecdotal evidence, which has since the time of David Hume, has been considered unacceptable as a method of proving your point.

How's he an asshole (using half german expressions is silly, go all the way)? He's saying that people should take care of themselves.
No, he's saying that people should either take care of themselves or <unknown consequence>. Unknown consequence can be death, living on the streets, anything really. That's what I find inhuman.

OT: Half german expressions? Huh?

No, he's saying that people should either take care of themselves or <unknown consequence>. Unknown consequence can be death, living on the streets, anything really. That's what I find inhuman.

OT: Half german expressions? Huh?
Well, if you realize that there are probable nasty repercussions for your choices, you oughta not make those choices. It's not my job to take care of you if such a choice is made (and by "you" I don't mean you, I mean the public in general)

arse is a corruption of the German word Arsch, which means ass (and not ass as in donkey, ass as in the rear)

Well, if you realize that there are probable nasty repercussions for your choices, you oughta not make those choices. It's not my job to take care of you if such a choice is made (and by "you" I don't mean you, I mean the public in general)

arse is a corruption of the German word Arsch, which means ass (and not ass as in donkey, ass as in the rear)

Most college students don't even go into college knowing what they want to major in! How can we expect 17 to know how to plan out the rest of their lives?

Most college students don't even go into college knowing what they want to major in! How can we expect 17 to know how to plan out the rest of their lives?
I'm not saying plan out the rest of their lives, I'm saying that they should consider choices logically and make the best choice as they come. And look at the potential consequences for each decision. If someone fails to do that or does do that and makes the wrong decision, I have very little sympathy for them. I am willing to help them, just so long as they use my help to learn how to fish, instead of buying a fish.

Oh yeah, cause as long as my mom's tuition is paid, my brothers won't need to eat.

What does your mom's situation have to do with the assignment?

$18,000 goes a long way when you live in a small town.

Up where? Maybe I should consider it. ALso btw, remember my numbers were USD.

And a studio apartment isn't enough space for a parent and child, child protection services would call you on it. Cheapest studio I found was 600.
Minnesota lol

Last year stayed in a 4 bedroom apt also ... 225 a month per person all subleased and everything ... I mean it is possible we got a good deal but I thought 550 per month was a hell of a lot lol :) cant imagine 700 lol

Sad thing is our average income is fairly high ... but cost of living is low ... deffinatly an easy place to live lol

I'm not saying plan out the rest of their lives, I'm saying that they should consider choices logically and make the best choice as they come. And look at the potential consequences for each decision. If someone fails to do that or does do that and makes the wrong decision, I have very little sympathy for them. I am willing to help them, just so long as they use my help to learn how to fish, instead of buying a fish.

As I said the hope of the research's finding it to fund money to provide services working people. The unfortunante thing in this country is that it costs a substantial amount of money in order to work, depending on your situation.

What does your mom's situation have to do with the assignment?

$18,000 goes a long way when you live in a small town.

Because you suggest that a single parent should just take out student loans and that will solve their problem.

Minnesota lol

Last year stayed in a 4 bedroom apt also ... 225 a month per person all subleased and everything ... I mean it is possible we got a good deal but I thought 550 per month was a hell of a lot lol :) cant imagine 700 lol

Sad thing is our average income is fairly high ... but cost of living is low ... deffinatly an easy place to live lol

Sad thing? No way! I'd love to do find or do some research on what the causes are of that situation. Your city would become a model for other cities.

bump

Because you suggest that a single parent should just take out student loans and that will solve their problem.

It sure would help. You'll be in debt when you're out, but at least you will have marketable skills. And the single parent part has nothing to do with my argument. I'd suggest it to anyone who is having difficulty getting by due to a lack of training/education.

It sure would help. You'll be in debt when you're out, but at least you will have marketable skills. And the single parent part has nothing to do with my argument. I'd suggest it to anyone who is having difficulty getting by due to a lack of training/education.

Are you not reading what I wrote?

Let me explain again: Lets say I am Single parent with kids. you suggest I take out student loans and go to college. Okay, so now my tuition is paid for now, yay! So how do I feed and house the kids?

I am sick of people declaring the poor in our society "have no drive." I found out otherwise in a very difficult and life-changing assignment for my Sociology 101 course.

For the assignment we are a single, 24 or 25 year old parent, with a 4 year old child. We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago.

Our assignment is to get to get a job to finance everything we need to live, which includes: housing, childcare, food, healthcare, utilities, etc.

We are not allowed to do anything illegal or degrading (like stripping).

For some generous reason, the professor allowed us to assume that we had a car or a bike, but if we had a car we had to pay the insurance and gas and everything. No, you can't sell the car. Or the bike. He also let us assume that we had a first month's security down payment for whatever apartment we find. You can agree that this is alot more than anyone in this situation has.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You have no family and no "connections." Good luck.

(Please continue to post#10 to read results before commenting, unless commenting on the assignment itself)

Okay, first let me start off by saying I do not think ALL homeless people/poor in society are there due to laziness. However, some are. Others are there due to the simple fact that they are incompetant and just about anything they try to do that's worthwhile, and there are those unfortunate few who are truly just that, unfortunate.

That aside, I'd like to say there are some flaws with your assignment. Yes it's true there are many people in that situation (or similar), however the thing is...

a) Why are you a single parent that's that young? Went off and got laid without thinking? Too bad, I don't care. Poor judgement and decided to sleep with an asshole whom, if you had listened to the people who cared about you, told you he'd probably just use you and dump you? Too bad, I don't care. Or maybe, it's possible you were truly unfortunate enough that maybe your husband/wife was killed in a freak accident or something. Assuming it's the 3rd one (although for most of them, it's #1 or #2), moving on...

b) Why don't you have any post-secondary education? Gross incompetance? Laziness? Drug addict? What other explanation can you offer?

I suppose these aren't really "flaws" really, depending on the purpose of your assignment. However, I believe if you factor in incompetence and stupidity on the part of the person, then together with laziness you have the primary reasons why people are in bad situations in life.

a) Why are you a single parent that's that young? Went off and got laid without thinking? Too bad, I don't care. Poor judgement and decided to sleep with an asshole ...
b) Why don't you have any post-secondary education? Gross incompetance? Laziness? Drug addict? What other explanation can you offer? ....
The point is that these people are in this unfortunate position, and they need our, society's, help - regardless of whether its 'their fault' or not.

Are you not reading what I wrote?

Let me explain again: Lets say I am Single parent with kids. you suggest I take out student loans and go to college. Okay, so now my tuition is paid for now, yay! So how do I feed and house the kids?

Student loans also cover living expenses, not just tuition.
In my case, I could get 18 grand. Tuition isn't even half that (especially for community college). And in this town, I rent a four bedroom house (w/ two roomates) for $300/month.

You could also work part time while in school.

Comprende?

a) Why are you a single parent that's that young? Went off and got laid without thinking? Too bad, I don't care. Poor judgement and decided to sleep with an asshole whom, if you had listened to the people who cared about you, told you he'd probably just use you and dump you? Too bad, I don't care. Or maybe, it's possible you were truly unfortunate enough that maybe your husband/wife was killed in a freak accident or something.

...some of us know that condoms can break... :D

The point is that these people are in this unfortunate position, and they need our, society's, help - regardless of whether its 'their fault' or not.

I'm forced to help people who have screwed themselves? I don't think so.

I'm forced to help people who have screwed themselves? I don't think so.
Do you think you are above 'screwing yourself'?

Do you think you are above 'screwing yourself'?

Yes

I'm forced to help people who have screwed themselves? I don't think so.

imagine for a minute that somehow you do manage to screw yourself... are you saying that, if, say, you became homeless and had no money at all, you would not like society to help out at all? That while you starve and freeze to death on the street, society should not interfere?
Besides, many of these people, who need our help, want to get out of whatever situation they may, or may not have, got themselves into, and find it impossible to find a way out - its not possible to get a job without a permament place of residence and without a job, you can't get a permament place of residence - catch 22. You're stuck there. This is another reason why they need our help - if we can help them get out of that, perhaps they could once-again become the productive members of society and good citizens that you evidently wish everyone to be.

imagine for a minute that somehow you do manage to screw yourself... are you saying that, if, say, you became homeless and had no money at all, you would not like society to help out at all?

No chance of that happening. Unless I just flat out refused to work.


That while you starve and freeze to death on the street, society should not interfere?

I'd move to Arizona.

No chance of that happening. Unless I just flat out refused to work.


I'd move to Arizona.

i don't think there is any point in arguing with you. are you really that arrogant or are you trying to wind us up?

imagine for a minute that somehow you do manage to screw yourself... are you saying that, if, say, you became homeless and had no money at all, you would not like society to help out at all? That while you starve and freeze to death on the street, society should not interfere?
Besides, many of these people, who need our help, want to get out of whatever situation they may, or may not have, got themselves into, and find it impossible to find a way out - its not possible to get a job without a permament place of residence and without a job, you can't get a permament place of residence - catch 22. You're stuck there. This is another reason why they need our help - if we can help them get out of that, perhaps they could once-again become the productive members of society and good citizens that you evidently wish everyone to be.
I agree … though I think we still have to tweak the way we currently do it, we cant subsidize peoples life. We have to help them help themselves if they refuse to help themselves we shouldn’t have to support them
(two examples … one friends mom … single mom two kids, husband left she got welfare but she works like a dog 50 hr weeks at least and she pulls herself out. Not completely at times and she needs help but she works and it is only emergencies that she still needs help) in that case the welfare helped her help herself … got her setup with a townhouse and she got her own job and worked her own debt


another friend … single mom 6 girls … her husband got thrown into jail (child molestation) real ass … she couldn’t make it herself went on welfare
has not tried to get off in 4 years … while I understand that she may not be able to make the money needed to provide she hasn’t even tried … no job whatsoever (babysitting and such is no issue her two oldest girls are 19 and 20 and they live at home)

Basically where I am going with this is that you have to try to do for yourself at least … we can help you get set and into a position to help yourself but we don’t want you living off of us without even trying … we don’t want to have to do your work for you

another friend … single mom 6 girls … her husband got thrown into jail (child molestation) real ass … she couldn’t make it herself went on welfare
has not tried to get off in 4 years … while I understand that she may not be able to make the money needed to provide she hasn’t even tried … no job whatsoever (babysitting and such is no issue her two oldest girls are 19 and 20 and they live at home)

Basically where I am going with this is that you have to try to do for yourself at least … we can help you get set and into a position to help yourself but we don’t want you living off of us without even trying … we don’t want to have to do your work for you
i think the way we do it here in the UK is different - we scrapped unemployment benefit a few years back in favour of 'job-seekers allowance' which you get for 6 months at a time as long as you are actively, and with proof, looking for a job. That way people can't just stick on benefit for years as you described - either they do something or you get nothing.
I think its quite a harsh but fair policy, personally.

The point is that these people are in this unfortunate position, and they need our, society's, help - regardless of whether its 'their fault' or not.

Well if that's purely the point of the assignment, then alright. I don't disagree that they probably NEED help, but my argument is basically whether they DESERVE help, which when it's their own fault, usually they don't.

...some of us know that condoms can break... :D

Still bad choice to date a guy that is the type of person who'd just dump you because you got pregnant, esp if he's the one who did it. Poor judgement. Even aside from that, you pay the price of premarital sex. I'm certain you knew the risks, if not, then you're dumb (I don't mean YOU, you, just a general you)

(I only read the first and tenth post)
1. If you are 24 single parent, have a 4 year old and no friends or family to look after them while you work then you are crazy.
2. I used to know a 24 year old single parent with a 4 year old who happened to live in Long Island, she ended up getting job stripping and was roommate with her sister. She said for some reason they ended up giving her a desk job that she hated.
3. I've met some homeless people that could get a job but are just too lazy period. I don't understand it at all so that's all I'm going to say.

i don't think there is any point in arguing with you. are you really that arrogant or are you trying to wind us up?

Probably not.

Look, if I end up homeless despite having a graduate degree from a good uni, I have no one to blame but myself. And if I did run into financial problems, I could count on my friends/family to help me out.

However, if I got run over by a street sweeper and lost my arms, I wouldn't mind a bit o' help. But this is different, because it's not my fault.

Do you ever see yourself falling into this situation?

i think the way we do it here in the UK is different - we scrapped unemployment benefit a few years back in favour of 'job-seekers allowance' which you get for 6 months at a time as long as you are actively, and with proof, looking for a job. That way people can't just stick on benefit for years as you described - either they do something or you get nothing.
I think its quite a harsh but fair policy, personally.

In the US you also have to have proof that you are applying for work to get benefits. They run out after 26 weeks I believe. At least that's how it is in my state.

A book came out recently, called "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America." They put the number of single working moms at 4000000. I'm sure thats really an exaggeration of the number zero.
Ask yourself a question. Why are so many teenage girls "single moms"?? Did anyone force a (vast) majority of them to have sex out of wedlock and get pregnant? The answer of course, is NO. Now, that is not to say that a single working mother can't make something good out of her situation, but far too many make a bad life choice, and it gets compounded by additional bad choices that they claim are forced upon them.

And let's not even talk about (far too many) black teenage girls. Not only do they wind up pregnant after ill-advised sex, but in too much of modern black American society, education per se is seen as "not keepin' it real (whatever that means.)"

Nope, bad choices lead to bad consequences. The chain of events that leads a 17-year old girl to become pregnant and finish high school (or worse, drop out) with zero marketable skills can be stopped right at the beginning, by abstaining. Too bad today's society sees sexual abstinence as "unrealistic."

The professor told us the point of the assignment was to show how hard it is to get out of poverty.The professor missed perfect opportunity to teach you how your choices affect your future. The easiest way to get out of poverty is to avoid the kind of choices that doom you to a lifetime of welfare or low-income jobs. Stay in school...practice safe sex, or better yet, wait until you are in a committed relationship, preferrably marriage...stay off drugs...develop a set of skills that has actual value in the job market. All these decisions would keep you from falling into the poverty trap.

However, if you do fall in the trap, there are ways out. Guess what...they are exactly the same things that would have kept you away from poverty in the first place.

The chain of events that leads a 17-year old girl to become pregnant and finish high school (or worse, drop out) with zero marketable skills can be stopped right at the beginning, by abstaining. Too bad today's society sees sexual abstinence as "unrealistic."


Or by getting an abortion.

Or by getting an abortion.
Or by simple birth control (at least around ere the pill is free at planned parenthood)

The point is that these people are in this unfortunate position, and they need our, society's, help - regardless of whether its 'their fault' or not.
Wrong! Why should I, who have "played by the rules" (i.e., stayed off drugs, stayed in school, refrained from unsafe sex until I was married to the love of my life, etc...and I grew up as one of 6 children of a divorced woman, who could barely make ends meet,) have to pick up the slack for those who made bad choices in their lives?

I have very little compassion left for those who have made bad choices in their lives. Their children, that's a different story, since those children didn't have a choice...but it's up to society to provide those children the opportunity to raise themselves above the level of their parents, not simply give them a handout and expect them to understand the value of hard work.

Or by getting an abortion.
Why should a baby pay the price for a teenager's bad decision? Spare me the whole "it's a fetus, it's not a baby" argument. It's a baby from the moment of conception, and if you can't raise it, either give it up for adoption or prevent its conception by using birth control (pills or rubbers) or by simply NOT having sex. I truly don't care which one, but for crying out loud, don't kill a baby.

Wrong! Why should I, who have "played by the rules" (i.e., stayed off drugs, stayed in school, refrained from unsafe sex until I was married to the love of my life, etc...and I grew up as one of 6 children of a divorced woman, who could barely make ends meet,) have to pick up the slack for those who made bad choices in their lives?

I have very little compassion left for those who have made bad choices in their lives. Their children, that's a different story, since those children didn't have a choice...but it's up to society to provide those children the opportunity to raise themselves above the level of their parents, not simply give them a handout and expect them to understand the value of hard work.
Though the problem is differentiating between those with a choice and those without

(untimely death of providing family member … un expected health issues) that sort of thing and those that could be trying to work for themselfs

Though the problem is differentiating between those with a choice and those without

(untimely death of providing family member … un expected health issues) that sort of thing and those that could be trying to work for themselfs
Even if you find yourself at a bad situation, without a choice (i.e., truly through no fault of your own,) you still have a choice:

a. sit around, feeling sorry for yourself and wait for others to help; or
b. get off your rear end, and do something productive to pull yourself out of the situation.

Trust me, if I know you, and you're in a bad situation that you just couldn't help, and you make choice "b", chances are really good that I will do what I can to help you. If, however, you make choice "a", you will find one less person to help you out.

Even if you find yourself at a bad situation, without a choice (i.e., truly through no fault of your own,) you still have a choice:

a. sit around, feeling sorry for yourself and wait for others to help; or
b. get off your rear end, and do something productive to pull yourself out of the situation.

Trust me, if I know you, and you're in a bad situation that you just couldn't help, and you make choice "b", chances are really good that I will do what I can to help you. If, however, you make choice "a", you will find one less person to help you out.
Oh I understand and agree you should be trying to improve your own situation ... just some people need a boost ... the problem is telling them from the ones that dont try

Oh I understand and agree you should be trying to improve your own situation ... just some people need a boost ... the problem is telling them from the ones that dont try
Actually, when you think about it, it's very easy to tell them apart. The ones who need a boost aren't trying very hard (or at all) to improve their lot in life. All you have to do is look for telltale signs.

All you have to do is look for telltale signs.

Like what?

Why should a baby pay the price for a teenager's bad decision? Spare me the whole "it's a fetus, it's not a baby" argument. It's a baby from the moment of conception, and if you can't raise it, either give it up for adoption or prevent its conception by using birth control (pills or rubbers) or by simply NOT having sex. I truly don't care which one, but for crying out loud, don't kill a baby.

because you can and it is the easiest thing to do after conception

Like what?
Weel, for starters, are they actively pursuing a job...an education? Are they spending more on Xbox games than on their children's education? Are they spending more on sneakers? And (even though this is going to come across the wrong way, here it goes) what kind of music do they listen to? How loud do they play it?

There are more, but I don't have the time, seeing how I have to go put on my flame-resistant suit.

Weel, for starters, are they actively pursuing a job...an education? Are they spending more on Xbox games than on their children's education? Are they spending more on sneakers? And (even though this is going to come across the wrong way, here it goes) what kind of music do they listen to? How loud do they play it?

There are more, but I don't have the time, seeing how I have to go put on my flame-resistant suit.

Is there a correlation between success and music preference?

Actually, when you think about it, it's very easy to tell them apart. The ones who need a boost aren't trying very hard (or at all) to improve their lot in life. All you have to do is look for telltale signs.
But I mean u have to do it the governmental way … which sucks I know but there will be grey area cases and paper work and “cutoffs” that will always be “just short” and all the other things that comes from trying to turn the human condition into paperwork and deadlines

Is there a correlation between success and music preference?
Shit I am probably in trouble … I listen to all the “wrong” music very loud (anything heavy)

Ehhh that’s ok 21 and making 45 k a year ;) I guess music choice didn’t make THAT much of a difference

Is there a correlation between success and music preference?
I'd say there is. The rap culture is one where success, as defined by most of us (getting an education and working for a decent living,) is seen as "selling out" or turning "white."

Ironically, the same culture tends to define success as getting the right kind of "wheels" (i.e., car) and getting the right kind of accessories, while wearing the latest in "gangsta" styles, and engaging in sexual escapades with multiple partners who are then left to fend for themselves when they become pregnant. Work? That's considered to be for chumps. The really successful "man" in the rap culture becomes so, either through sports (where they emphasis is placed on individual achievement and demands for respect,) or through "music" (e.g., P-Diddy or whatever his name is this week,) or through the drug trade and its related violence (e.g., the gang warfare in Los Angeles.)

Only in the rap culture is someone like Russell Simmons or Ron Artest admired, while Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are despised.

But I mean u have to do it the governmental way … which sucks I know but there will be grey area cases and paper work and “cutoffs” that will always be “just short” and all the other things that comes from trying to turn the human condition into paperwork and deadlines
No, no, no. The governmental way makes the problems worse!

We have spent trillions of dollars since 1964, waging a War on Poverty, and poverty has gotten worse, not better. We have spent trillions of dollars in "education" at the federal level, and education in this country has worsened, not improved!

Get the government out of the business of pulling up those who are down...that is, stop giving government incentives for remaining poor and uneducated...and we will see a real improvement in the situation.

Damn uncle-toms

Yes, the 'thug' lifestyle is not too condusive to long-term success.

Shit I am probably in trouble … I listen to all the “wrong” music very loud (anything heavy)

Ehhh that’s ok 21 and making 45 k a year ;) I guess music choice didn’t make THAT much of a difference
What exactly do you do? And where are you from? $45k might not be that much, depending on where you live. And you will notice I did not completely generalize, because there are those who, despite some shoddy choices, have made generally good ones, and get ahead. More power to you.

I'd say there is. The rap culture is one where success, as defined by most of us (getting an education and working for a decent living,) is seen as "selling out" or turning "white."

Ironically, the same culture tends to define success as getting the right kind of "wheels" (i.e., car) and getting the right kind of accessories, while wearing the latest in "gangsta" styles, and engaging in sexual escapades with multiple partners who are then left to fend for themselves when they become pregnant. Work? That's considered to be for chumps. The really successful "man" in the rap culture becomes so, either through sports (where they emphasis is placed on individual achievement and demands for respect,) or through "music" (e.g., P-Diddy or whatever his name is this week,) or through the drug trade and its related violence (e.g., the gang warfare in Los Angeles.)

Only in the rap culture is someone like Russell Simmons or Ron Artest admired, while Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are despised.

Lol what does my sometimes metal preference say about me? Has a lot of the sexual escapades in rap and a lot of other topics
Or country … do the people that listen to that have a majority of problems to do with drinking or broken down pickups …


I understand but I think the culture influences the music rather then the other way around

What exactly do you do? And where are you from? $45k might not be that much, depending on where you live. And you will notice I did not completely generalize, because there are those who, despite some shoddy choices, have made generally good ones, and get ahead. More power to you.

Pretty good for 21...esp. since the avg is 34k or so...

What exactly do you do? And where are you from? $45k might not be that much, depending on where you live. And you will notice I did not completely generalize, because there are those who, despite some shoddy choices, have made generally good ones, and get ahead. More power to you.
Minnesota … considering I am still getting my degree ;) (network design) with a second major in network security
Network admin / network architect
And its very livable considering that don’t cover my full medical dental paid vacations … all the perks


If you are wondering about my music choice

Mudvayne
Slipknot
Korn
Metalica
Skindred
40 below summer


That sort of music … generally

Pretty good for 21...esp. since the avg is 34k or so...
Yeah I dident think I was doing bad for 21 lol specialy when I am getting like 12 k a year in full bennies :) and still no degree (only been in collage for going on my 4th year and I am double majoring)

OK now we have (more or less) come to agree that some deserve help, others not.
When it comes to drawing the line, which is more important, making sure that...
a) those who deserve help get it?
b) those who don't deserve help don't get it?

Bear in mind that it is expensive to have lots of poor people around. Crime rates etc.

Compare this to a factory with lots of employees that just sit around and you can't fire them. What to do? Pay the price of making them useful, kill'em all or just leave them be?

a) those who deserve help get it
there will always be those that defraud the welfare system, but its my opinion that its best to give out too much in welfare rather than too little

OK now we have (more or less) come to agree that some deserve help, others not.
When it comes to drawing the line, which is more important, making sure that...
a) those who deserve help get it?
b) those who don't deserve help don't get it?

Bear in mind that it is expensive to have lots of poor people around. Crime rates etc.

Compare this to a factory with lots of employees that just sit around and you can't fire them. What to do? Pay the price of making them useful, kill'em all or just leave them be?
Hard question actually

Initially I wanted to say those that needed it got it … but its come close

I have to remember this money isn’t coming out of no where … it is being drawn from individuals who themselves might need the money (I know a few years ago if my parents didn’t help with books that money that is taken out could have made the difference between going to collage and getting a career or trying to make it with just a high school education) I mean on the whole there are a lot of people that have the money

There are some that desperately need it themselves
And there are some where it is enough to push them to the point of needing welfare

(small percentage I know) but we cant be of the attitude (oh well if we serve some bad we got all the good) cause those “bad” people are soaking up money that may mean all the difference to some people. We have to be responsible spenders

Bear in mind that it is expensive to have lots of poor people around. Crime rates etc.

Compare this to a factory with lots of employees that just sit around and you can't fire them. What to do? Pay the price of making them useful, kill'em all or just leave them be?

I would like to believe that less people would fall into such a situation if they knew there was no safety net. But that's just me.

I like the phrase "work or die"! Havent heard that before.
IMO everybody deserves a basic standard of living, whether they're too lazy to work or not is irrelavent - nobody deserves to be homeless & live on the street. That seems to be one of the points of the 'Lazy' arguement; these people actually deserve to be there - fankly I cant think of many opinions less compassionate and more unpleasant.
I gotta disagree. If you are a full time worker, you deserve a living wage and help from the gov't. if you can't make ends meet. If you can't work, you deserve the same. If you won't work, fuck you. starve.

OK now we have (more or less) come to agree that some deserve help, others not.
When it comes to drawing the line, which is more important, making sure that...
a) those who deserve help get it?
b) those who don't deserve help don't get it?

Bear in mind that it is expensive to have lots of poor people around. Crime rates etc.

Compare this to a factory with lots of employees that just sit around and you can't fire them. What to do? Pay the price of making them useful, kill'em all or just leave them be?

Mainly to help sort a and b, you offer programs that help workers only. To do this, you force people to live off the money they make. However, you provide services that workers need. As I said, alot of the costs of these people go to paying for themselves to work (because of services such as childcare).

Mainly to help sort a and b, you offer programs that help workers only. To do this, you force people to live off the money they make. However, you provide services that workers need. As I said, alot of the costs of these people go to paying for themselves to work (because of services such as childcare).
Yup ... not just money

and things like traditional food stamps are sold/traded basicaly it would be cool for something like credit card where they and only they can by the essentials

Good for food ... medicine and nessesities but nothing other then that


Bassicaly providing the basics thats it

I would take out a student loan and go to community college. Then I would work my ass off and get into a four-year school.
I like this! Although.... when I applied for a student loan last spring, I was turned down, because I have no cosigner, and I haven't got a credit history. I'm 18. Now i work in a grocery store at night making 8.70 an hour. Just enough to survive (maybe)...

I like this! Although.... when I applied for a student loan last spring, I was turned down, because I have no cosigner, and I haven't got a credit history. I'm 18. Now i work in a grocery store at night making 8.70 an hour. Just enough to survive (maybe)...

Meaning that your EFC (expected family contribution) is too high? I was an independant when applying, and never had any such problems.

Meaning that your EFC (expected family contribution) is too high? I was an independant when applying, and never had any such problems.
No, my EFC is Zero ($0), and I have no spare money, no car. They turned me down because I am a credit risk.

No, my EFC is Zero ($0), and I have no spare money, no car. They turned me down because I am a credit risk.


Lousy credit?

Its nice to see that you don't believe anyone in society's lower class deserves a chance.

Whats worse is that you don't even go on to read the results. You somehow assume my assignment was to complain. Please, I ask you, and dare you, to actually read my results and point out where I'm "complaining."

They had a chance, they blew it.

I never assumed your assignment was to complain, and I don't see anywhere in this thread other than the post above where you are complaining. I meant "you" in a general sense. You = the poor, not you = Irrational Numbers.

Wow. You're an arsehole even to people in hypothetical situations.

You're on my case now for being an "arsehole" to a hypothetical person?

Besides, I'm not being an asshole to anyone, Mr. Spoffin. I'm being realistic. While your world may consist of clouds with smiley-faces on them, mine doesn't. While you may think that giving lazy people other people's money (ie wellfare) is a good idea, I don't. Your elementary school insults contribute little to the conversation at hand. You didn't even tell me why I was being an "arsehole" and what you don't agree with. You just felt like upping the old post count. Congradulations, Spoffin, post count +1.

Most college students don't even go into college knowing what they want to major in! How can we expect 17 to know how to plan out the rest of their lives?

They don't have to plan what they want to do...the just have to know what they don't want to be, ie homeless, poor, etc. and work towards whatever keeps them away from that which they don't want to do or be.

College students go to college to get a better education and hopefully get a good job because of it. The fact that they took the initive and went to college is one example of them planning their life.

Meaning that your EFC (expected family contribution) is too high? I was an independant when applying, and never had any such problems.
Me got screwed with EFC too ... which is fine I just picked up another two jobs

hey I may be working 80 hr weeks but I can pay for school ... no loans

...some of us know that condoms can break... :D

As I said, when it comes down to it, if you can't support it don't have sex...

wouldn't be my first choice either, but i'm not poor so I don't have to worry about it

Me got screwed with EFC too ... which is fine I just picked up another two jobs

hey I may be working 80 hr weeks but I can pay for school ... no loans

If you are getting too high an EFC and can't afford school, then you need to stop letting your parents claim you as a dependant. That way your EFC will be zero and you should get a loan.

If you are getting too high an EFC and can't afford school, then you need to stop letting your parents claim you as a dependant. That way your EFC will be zero and you should get a loan.
Oh I know … but by that time I had the jobs and found out it is better loan free :)
(that was my first year … Ive been in 4)

I'm not saying plan out the rest of their lives, I'm saying that they should consider choices logically and make the best choice as they come. And look at the potential consequences for each decision.

Whilst this is all very good for grown adults, it hardly seems reasonable to simply respond "your own fault" to someone who made stupid decisions when they were a teenager. Maybe you never made any but I'm willing to guess if so then you're in a minority. I know I did, but fortunately I had a family who were willing to support me through it so I could get back on track. Not everyone is so lucky.

Equally, though, I'm not saying everyone who can't make ends meet is a poor unfortunate downtrodden soul. I don't think blanket statements, from either perspective, in any way do the complex nature of society justice. That's why I would support a system of welfare that gives both the means and incentives (both positive and negative) to work out of poverty.

College students go to college to get a better education and hopefully get a good job because of it. The fact that they took the initive and went to college is one example of them planning their life.

I wonder what proportion "college" (just pointing out that putting quotation marks around other forms of English works both ways, I don't mean to be snotty but it is needless and petty) students actually do take the initiative, as you put it. In my experience for a large proportion going to university was pretty much written into their stars by their parents, school and/or society.

OK, half the people here like to use 'personal responsibility' as a reason to deny five-year olds food and shelter because their mothers made bad decisions?

So let's assume that Mom did get laid a few years back and a baby popped out. She has realized the error of her ways but works two jobs and 60+ hours per week in an attempt to feed the child and take care of him/her. Should she not be helped in such an endeavour simply because of one bad decision five years ago?

And why deny support to the child, when it sure as hell isn't the child's responsibility for making said bad decisions? In effect, by ranting about high taxes and welfare queens, you are telling the children caught in the middle, "Because your mother made a bad decision, society does not value you enough to provide you any support whatsoever. Because your mother did not take out student loans ten years ago, your mother has to choose between feeding you and giving you a home. Because we don't want to pay taxes to support other people with our money, you can just go hungry."

Yeah, compassionate conservatives, just try explaining the logic of your philosophy to a five-year old unlucky enough to be caught in this situation. Are you going to accuse that five-year old child of irresponsible decisions? Do you propose to hold small children who are just learning to read accountable for the mistakes of some other person? The consequences of yanking welfare don't just fall upon the mother. They also fall upon the child, who certainly didn't have a voice in being conceived into this crappy situation.

God, if I was a child in this situation, I might commit suicide.

OK, half the people here like to use 'personal responsibility' as a reason to deny five-year olds food and shelter because their mothers made bad decisions?

So let's assume that Mom did get laid a few years back and a baby popped out. She has realized the error of her ways but works two jobs and 60+ hours per week in an attempt to feed the child and take care of him/her. Should she not be helped in such an endeavour simply because of one bad decision five years ago?

And why deny support to the child, when it sure as hell isn't the child's responsibility for making said bad decisions? In effect, by ranting about high taxes and welfare queens, you are telling the children caught in the middle, "Because your mother made a bad decision, society does not value you enough to provide you any support whatsoever. Because your mother did not take out student loans ten years ago, your mother has to choose between feeding you and giving you a home. Because we don't want to pay taxes to support other people with our money, you can just go hungry."

Yeah, compassionate conservatives, just try explaining the logic of your philosophy to a five-year old unlucky enough to be caught in this situation. Are you going to accuse that five-year old child of irresponsible decisions? Do you propose to hold small children who are just learning to read accountable for the mistakes of some other person? The consequences of yanking welfare don't just fall upon the mother. They also fall upon the child, who certainly didn't have a voice in being conceived into this crappy situation.

God, if I was a child in this situation, I might commit suicide.

Speak it brother! I think your right.

I think it's interesting how people that speak such hatred all their lives suddenly flip-flop when they find themselves in an economically desperate situation. To put it frankly, capitalism does not work.

...snip...
God, if I was a child in this situation, I might commit suicide.


That wasn't the assignment

To put it frankly, capitalism does not work.

How's that now?

I am sick of people declaring the poor in our society "have no drive." I found out otherwise in a very difficult and life-changing assignment for my Sociology 101 course.

For the assignment we are a single, 24 or 25 year old parent, with a 4 year old child. We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago.

Our assignment is to get to get a job to finance everything we need to live, which includes: housing, childcare, food, healthcare, utilities, etc.

We are not allowed to do anything illegal or degrading (like stripping).

For some generous reason, the professor allowed us to assume that we had a car or a bike, but if we had a car we had to pay the insurance and gas and everything. No, you can't sell the car. Or the bike. He also let us assume that we had a first month's security down payment for whatever apartment we find. You can agree that this is alot more than anyone in this situation has.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You have no family and no "connections." Good luck.

(Please continue to post#10 to read results before commenting, unless commenting on the assignment itself)
the definitions of the assignment themselves render it irrelevant.

1. anybody who dicked around for 7 years after high school, obtaining no qualification and securing no career path, deserves what they get. their laziness and irresponsibility is their fault and they should own it.
2. anybody who has a baby without first getting basic education and securing a solid career opinion should be permanently sterilized and have their child taken away. that kind of irresponsibility and selfishness is nothing less than child abuse.
3. saying that career paths like stripping shouldn't be an option is stupid and Puritanical, since any LEGAL career path should be considered just as legitimate as all others. i don't see anything degrading about stripping, and i don't see why i should have to care if anybody else does, but i certainly see something degrading about being homeless and destitute. if stripping pays the bills and feeds you then it's a hell of a lot less degrading than being on the streets with an empty stomach...anybody who claims otherwise has no concept of what it means to be poor.

I think it's interesting how people that speak such hatred all their lives suddenly flip-flop when they find themselves in an economically desperate situation. To put it frankly, capitalism does not work.
funny, my experience being homeless is what made me the fervent supporter of libertarian ideals that i am today. i was a socialist until i actually experienced poverty, but now i oppose socialism and communism quite strongly.

Poverty isn't suchj a bad thing in this country. It is just a word that tree-huggers use to gain sympathy. How many people in NY, in poverty, have color televisions and microwaves? Poverty means a person's income is not higher than a certain amount, not necessarily living on the street.

Move to Sweden.
1: all schools are free (even private ones) from kindergarten to university (well.. at university level you have to pay for your own school lunches (of course) and school material. But no tuition fees)
2: if ya cant afford the rent, the government pays part of it (unless ya live like really fashionable)
3: you will get child support (everyone does)
4: if you cant afford to feed your children, the government will pay you a certain amount every month.
5: If you don't have a job, the government will pay you. (not as good as if ya had a real job thou, but enuff to survive)
6: going to the doctor is almost free of charge, and if you can't pay, you can divide the sum (something like 12 dollar) and pay a little every month for grown ups, and completely free of charge for kids under 18.
7: everyone is granted student loans from, yes, you guessed correctly, the government (you will get 200 dollar/month for free, and 500$/month that ya have to repay, once ya finished univeristy and have a job)
8: dental care is free of charge if you're under 20 years old.

And no: 6 and 8 is for private doctors/dentists too. It's free if you're under 18/20 years old.

hey my father has worked as a pipe fitter for the rail road for 28 yeras and he is only 48 yeras (and is not eligleable for retierment until hes 63 years old)he had a wife and me (a son) right out of high school he had no skills but he had the drive to get those skills, anyone can get work if they tried hard, their is work out in this great country and any one with that dirve can get it. so i don't feel sorry for the poor

Poverty isn't suchj a bad thing in this country. It is just a word that tree-huggers use to gain sympathy. How many people in NY, in poverty, have color televisions and microwaves? Poverty means a person's income is not higher than a certain amount, not necessarily living on the street.
that's true as well. technically i live below the poverty line right now, based on my income, but i have a nice studio in a good neighborhood, cable, a dishwasher, and a new computer. life is a bit lean, and i certainly have no money to spare after bills, food, and taxes, but i am nowhere near true poverty.

on the other hand, i have been homeless in urban America, and it was no joke. needing to shower in the lockerroom at school and brush my teeth in the restroom of a Burgerking nearby, having to borrow quarters from friends to do laundry so i wouldn't stink, worrying about if my school lunch would be my only meal for the day...that was seriously not cool. it could have been much worse, but it was no walk in the park.

that's true as well. technically i live below the poverty line right now, based on my income, but i have a nice studio in a good neighborhood, cable, a dishwasher, and a new computer. life is a bit lean, and i certainly have no money to spare after bills, food, and taxes, but i am nowhere near true poverty.

on the other hand, i have been homeless in urban America, and it was no joke. needing to shower in the lockerroom at school and brush my teeth in the restroom of a Burgerking nearby, having to borrow quarters from friends to do laundry so i wouldn't stink, worrying about if my school lunch would be my only meal for the day...that was seriously not cool. it could have been much worse, but it was no walk in the park.
that sucks man

that sucks man
the worst part was that it was my own damn fault :P. it's always better to be suffering if you can pin the blame on somebody else!

the definitions of the assignment themselves render it irrelevant.

1. anybody who dicked around for 7 years after high school, obtaining no qualification and securing no career path, deserves what they get. their laziness and irresponsibility is their fault and they should own it.
2. anybody who has a baby without first getting basic education and securing a solid career opinion should be permanently sterilized and have their child taken away. that kind of irresponsibility and selfishness is nothing less than child abuse.
3. saying that career paths like stripping shouldn't be an option is stupid and Puritanical, since any LEGAL career path should be considered just as legitimate as all others. i don't see anything degrading about stripping, and i don't see why i should have to care if anybody else does, but i certainly see something degrading about being homeless and destitute. if stripping pays the bills and feeds you then it's a hell of a lot less degrading than being on the streets with an empty stomach...anybody who claims otherwise has no concept of what it means to be poor.
that attitude is quite heartless, depsite what you may have been through personally. these people may have got into whatever position they are in through their own fault, laziness or stupidity, but they are nonetheless in that situation and require societies support.

Move to Sweden.
1: all schools are free (even private ones) from kindergarten to university (well.. at university level you have to pay for your own school lunches (of course) and school material. But no tuition fees)
2: if ya cant afford the rent, the government pays part of it (unless ya live like really fashionable)
3: you will get child support (everyone does)
4: if you cant afford to feed your children, the government will pay you a certain amount every month.
5: If you don't have a job, the government will pay you. (not as good as if ya had a real job thou, but enuff to survive)
6: going to the doctor is almost free of charge, and if you can't pay, you can divide the sum (something like 12 dollar) and pay a little every month for grown ups, and completely free of charge for kids under 18.
7: everyone is granted student loans from, yes, you guessed correctly, the government (you will get 200 dollar/month for free, and 500$/month that ya have to repay, once ya finished univeristy and have a job)
8: dental care is free of charge if you're under 20 years old.

And no: 6 and 8 is for private doctors/dentists too. It's free if you're under 18/20 years old.
and sweden sounds cool

They had a chance, they blew it.

I never assumed your assignment was to complain, and I don't see anywhere in this thread other than the post above where you are complaining. I meant "you" in a general sense. You = the poor, not you = Irrational Numbers.

I shouldn't have to point out that I wasn't complaining in that post. Your post does not answer my question either way.

that's true as well. technically i live below the poverty line right now, based on my income, but i have a nice studio in a good neighborhood, cable, a dishwasher, and a new computer. life is a bit lean, and i certainly have no money to spare after bills, food, and taxes, but i am nowhere near true poverty.

on the other hand, i have been homeless in urban America, and it was no joke. needing to shower in the lockerroom at school and brush my teeth in the restroom of a Burgerking nearby, having to borrow quarters from friends to do laundry so i wouldn't stink, worrying about if my school lunch would be my only meal for the day...that was seriously not cool. it could have been much worse, but it was no walk in the park.

We've studied articles about studies showing that the poverty is decerasing based on things bought like TVs and such. These are not indicators of how well the poor are doing, they are indicators of how cheap they are able to make these products now.

That wasn't the assignment

I'll admit some students asked if it or some form were an option. (Not so much suicide, but instead selling the kid into slavery. A bit of black humor. Not to be taken seriously.)

We've studied articles about studies showing that the poverty is decerasing based on things bought like TVs and such. These are not indicators of how well the poor are doing, they are indicators of how cheap they are able to make these products now.
it is an indicator to a certain extent, in the sense that people will not spend $50 on a TV if they are having trouble scraping together enough money for food. it is true that we can now obtain many luxuries for cheaper, and some of the changes in who owns such luxuries can be misleading, but you can still get a bit of a feel for the difference between real poverty and our current income definition of poverty...for instance, anybody who can afford a monthly cable bill is NOT living in poverty, period.

that attitude is quite heartless, depsite what you may have been through personally. these people may have got into whatever position they are in through their own fault, laziness or stupidity, but they are nonetheless in that situation and require societies support.

i disagree. if they got themselves into a situation it's their job to get out, and society has no obligation to clean up their messes for them. i have zero sympathy for people who waste their lives and fail to become independent (barring handicap, of course), and i have nothing but contempt for people who have babies while being such utter failures. i am living proof that it is more than possible to succeed when coming from poor conditions, and i'm not terribly smart or talented or special in any way...if i can do it, anybody can, and thus if they don't do it then that's because they chose not to. their choice, their consequences.

see, saying that the poor are lazy is retarded. but there are people who are poor because of bad decisions.. nevertheless, a little help from society is fine imho.

To all the people who say "If you get yourself in a bad situation, you shouldn't expect help from society," or some similar thing:

You still haven't explained why any children these people might have should also be held responsible for their parents' mistakes. Restricting welfare based on 'personal responsibility,' or a similar vague notion, will have a severely detrimental impact on children who certainly did not choose to be born into poverty.

So please tell me again why five-year olds should be held to suffer for their parents' bad decisions six years ago? :confused:

I'll admit some students asked if it or some form were an option. (Not so much suicide, but instead selling the kid into slavery. A bit of black humor. Not to be taken seriously.)

I hear a healthy caucasian child goes for several grand in Brazil....

So please tell me again why five-year olds should be held to suffer for their parents' bad decisions six years ago? :confused:
if a parent cannot care for the child or children they produce then those children should be taken away, and the parent should be imprisoned for child abuse. the parent should work (in prison) with 100% of their wages going to support their children or save for the kids' education.

see, saying that the poor are lazy is retarded. but there are people who are poor because of bad decisions.. nevertheless, a little help from society is fine imho.

So the government comes to bail out the stupid, poor, and ignorant. It does so by threatening the able, intelligent, and industrious for their time and property. How is that okay?

People that make bad decisions should suffer the consequences. Maybe that will cause them to make better decisions in the future. If it doesn't, well poor people don't die in the U.S. There is always a charity that will help out. Lot's of those charities are supported by the able, intelligent, and industrious people that the government coerces money from. People that make good decisions won't suffer nearly the same when faced with adversity.

if a parent cannot care for the child or children they produce then those children should be taken away, and the parent should be imprisoned for child abuse. the parent should work (in prison) with 100% of their wages going to support their children or save for the kids' education.


I saw a blurb on CNN about how inmates in Missouri can no longer play Hitman on the playstation. What the hell is going on? Why do they have a playstation? I can't even afford one.

You should just go shoot someone, get your three square and a cot, and lay around playing video games and lifting weights.

if a parent cannot care for the child or children they produce then those children should be taken away, and the parent should be imprisoned for child abuse. the parent should work (in prison) with 100% of their wages going to support their children or save for the kids' education.

Yeah right... foster care, way to go. 25% abuse rate. Instability. Fear. No home.

And Prison work doesn't even get minimum wage! Its basically in order to buy some cigerrettes or something, and give them something to do.

*Does the "Why the Hell wouldn't you just do what your ancestors did" Dance*

I.E. Move in with family, or, failing that, move in with another family or multiple families in the same economic bracket as you. Immigrants did this for years, fitting 3-7 families in a single apartment. Most worked, some babysat, some did whatever else had to be done. Shared expenses, shared resources, etc. Furthermore, you can always supplement that income with welfare, and other government funded aid packages for the type of situations you've described.

*Does the "Why the Hell wouldn't you just do what your ancestors did" Dance*

I.E. Move in with family, or, failing that, move in with another family or multiple families in the same economic bracket as you. Immigrants did this for years, fitting 3-7 families in a single apartment. Most worked, some babysat, some did whatever else had to be done. Shared expenses, shared resources, etc. Furthermore, you can always supplement that income with welfare, and other government funded aid packages for the type of situations you've described.

Where do I find these people? New York Post classifieds?

To Steel Butterfly, Bottle, and all of the rest of the personal responsibility fiends, there is nothing it this scenario that indicates that the person WAS irresponsible. Heres a scenario for you...Jen graduated HS didn't do that great so plans to go work waiting tables..she plans to go to the Community college to work her way up to a 4 year school, but is taking a year off first to "live". Towards the end of that year her high school sweethart proposes, and she accepts. They are married six months later, six months after that she discovers she is preggers . She quits her waitressing job..her hubby has a decent job and they agree that she should be a full time Mom. The baby is born and four years go by..the Hubby is making decent money not great, they havn't really been able to save but they have a car and it is finally paid off. Suddenly something happens to Hubby (killed, run off,etc) so Jen is left with the car, the kid and no means of support at the age of 25.


Irrational Numbers, I did find the scenario not to be very realistic. I doubt that many in that situation have NO support. You said the Professor said that she had no family, but what about the Fathers family? does she have any close friends she could crash at..or be roommates with? that would certainly cut down on the rent and possibly some of the child care. As for the military you don't need family, if you have a trusted friend you could draw up guardianship papers. Also did you even concider selling the Car? Thats probably a couple thousand in cash that would cover a couple of months rent leave a little left over for an emergancy fund.

The way I see it there are three types of people in poverty
1) Those that can't do anything about it (handicapped physically/mentally)
2) Those that are trying to work their way out but can't get the momentum
3) those that arn't trying
I believe in helping the first two groups. The first one because it is our duty as a society to help those that can not help themselves. Those in the second group for the purely pragmatic reason that in helping them a little now means that they become a productive part of society instead of a drain, saving reasources in the long run. As for the third group let them starve or better yet make them work planting tress, picking up litter "urban renewl"

Yeah right... foster care, way to go. 25% abuse rate. Instability. Fear. No home.

And Prison work doesn't even get minimum wage! Its basically in order to buy some cigerrettes or something, and give them something to do.

Aw, you beat me to it.

OK, personal responsibility fiends, if you throw the parent in prison and take the child away, you're simply switching from one form of punishment (starvation/lack of adequate housing) to another (foster care, huge instability and increased chances for abuse) for children who had no influence at all over their lot in life.

Yeah right... foster care, way to go. 25% abuse rate. Instability. Fear. No home.

And Prison work doesn't even get minimum wage! Its basically in order to buy some cigerrettes or something, and give them something to do.
let's see, taking kids away from homes where it is 100% certain they aren't getting the care they need, and moving them into homes with a 25% chance of maltreatment...i play the odds, i'm afraid, and if 25% is the best we can do then at least it beats a 100% chance of neglect and/or abuse.

furthermore, i completely support moving funding into adoption programs and the foster care system, to improve conditions for children who must be taken away from abusive or neglectful parents. as for prison wages being low, who cares? they stay in prison until they put their kids through college (or pay off all the kid's loans), and if that takes their whole life then that's fine by me...at least they won't be able to make any more babies while in jail.

Foster care is an ugly slippery slope. I agree that a child who is being abused should be removed from the home, however it is not always so easy to determine, particularly with an uncooperative child. Errors can and do happen which result in a child being removed from a good home. Of course they also happen leaving a child in an abusive home.

A 25% abuse rate in a foster home is not believable. What is believable is the total lack of nurturing a child receives there. My spouse is a pediatric RN and can tell you first hand of the emotional misery these children face.

The trouble is that once a child is in the foster care network it is virtually impossible to get them out. The parents, if they are among the few capable ones, must jump impossible hurdles to get their children back permanently. Meanwhile the state refuses to put the child up for adoption so the parents (who are likely deadbeats, but just in case...) can have a chance to get their children back. For those lucky enough to be eligible for adoption the state males it so ridiculously complicated that there is a waiting list of children AND adoptive parents - all waiting on the ever-so-slow state. How fair is that!

There is very little criteria to become a foster parent, the pay is not bad and per chld, there is not much oversight and there is a huge shortage of foster parents.

Imagine how hard it is to be a foster parent - you take in a child who has likely been abused. You nurture that child then the state takes the child from you and places him/her back with the parent who promises to be 'nice' for a trial period. A few weeks later the child is back all messed up again. Maybe with you, maybe with another foster parent. This happens over and over again. Eventually you become emotionally detached as a defence mechanism.

I'm afraid there is no easy answer to foster care.

I am sick of people declaring the poor in our society "have no drive." I found out otherwise in a very difficult and life-changing assignment for my Sociology 101 course.

For the assignment we are a single, 24 or 25 year old parent, with a 4 year old child. We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago.

Our assignment is to get to get a job to finance everything we need to live, which includes: housing, childcare, food, healthcare, utilities, etc.

We are not allowed to do anything illegal or degrading (like stripping).

For some generous reason, the professor allowed us to assume that we had a car or a bike, but if we had a car we had to pay the insurance and gas and everything. No, you can't sell the car. Or the bike. He also let us assume that we had a first month's security down payment for whatever apartment we find. You can agree that this is alot more than anyone in this situation has.

Oh yeah, one last thing. You have no family and no "connections." Good luck.

(Please continue to post#10 to read results before commenting, unless commenting on the assignment itself)
OK - I'll play.

The first thing to note is the flaw in the assignment. You are a single 25 year old high school graduate with a child. The first question begs "How did you become single?". This is conviniently left out of they hypothesis.

If you were divorced then you are due child support - or even out of wedlock if you know who the father is. If you were were widowed then you are due social security. If you had a child without knowing who the father is then you have made a poor life choice which you now must bear the responsibility for. (You could have used contraception or adoption)

Now as for "We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago." Just what HAVE you been doing for the last 7 years? (three of which you had no child) You've not been employed, not been in school and not achieved anything? How can you afford that without being either married or living with family? As before, if you were married then now you are eligible for child support or social security. If you were with family then there is your support group which is denied in this assignment.

Lets just assume the ridiculous - You spent the last seven years as an alien medical test subject aboard a spaceship, which was also the cause of your pregnancy.

The first mistake you made was looking in the NYC Metro area. There is no rule that you cannot move to a more affordable part of the nation. I would suggest Florida since they now offer preschool for low income households. The cost of living in the central areas is pretty low. There are other attractive places as well.

For daycare there is also the Church. Many churches offere reduced cost daycare for their congregation members who are poor. Many also can offer much needed help in other regards - food, clothing, rent help, etc.

The second error you made is in assuming she must not establish any social contact. Often women (married and single) will meet at the park, mall or wherever and create a network of friends, playgroups and... babysitter 'co-ops'. Since you've been on a spaceship for the last seven years we can assume you have neither a friend or the capacity to relate to people and make friends. (NERD!)

You can still have a roommate or sublet a room. This esentially reduced your costs 35-40%. (a 2 bedroom still costs more than a 1 bedroom) If your roommate has a child then you are in good shape and can split babysitting and toys/clothing swapping.

Health benefits at work are not needed becaouse you are eligible for public asistance. Medicare offeres reduced cost insurance and most states offer no cost (such as medi-cal in CA) for low income households.

Daycare is a problem. However now that you've reduced your living costs with a roommate, moved to a less expensive area and picked up free or low cost health inusrance you can afford it. (If you can't find a co-op partner or don't live in a state with free preeschool or belong to a church that offers this)

Finally there is the problem of what you are doing with your social life. For seven years you've been on a spaceship and not had a man. It is time to start dating. Luckily for you it is free except babysitting. If you find Mr. Right then you have finally fixed the broken formula. You have a two-parent household and life becomes much more simple - which is the most important part of the lesson.

OK - I'll play.

The first thing to note is the flaw in the assignment. You are a single 25 year old high school graduate with a child. The first question begs "How did you become single?". This is conviniently left out of they hypothesis.

If you were divorced then you are due child support - or even out of wedlock if you know who the father is. If you were were widowed then you are due social security. If you had a child without knowing who the father is then you have made a poor life choice which you now must bear the responsibility for. (You could have used contraception or adoption)

Now as for "We have no skills, no training, and no education after our highschool diploma. We don't really know much from highschool anymore since we graduated 6 to 7 years ago." Just what HAVE you been doing for the last 7 years? (three of which you had no child) You've not been employed, not been in school and not achieved anything? How can you afford that without being either married or living with family? As before, if you were married then now you are eligible for child support or social security. If you were with family then there is your support group which is denied in this assignment.

Lets just assume the ridiculous - You spent the last seven years as an alien medical test subject aboard a spaceship, which was also the cause of your pregnancy.

The first mistake you made was looking in the NYC Metro area. There is no rule that you cannot move to a more affordable part of the nation. I would suggest Florida since they now offer preschool for low income households. The cost of living in the central areas is pretty low. There are other attractive places as well.

For daycare there is also the Church. Many churches offere reduced cost daycare for their congregation members who are poor. Many also can offer much needed help in other regards - food, clothing, rent help, etc.

The second error you made is in assuming she must not establish any social contact. Often women (married and single) will meet at the park, mall or wherever and create a network of friends, playgroups and... babysitter 'co-ops'. Since you've been on a spaceship for the last seven years we can assume you have neither a friend or the capacity to relate to people and make friends. (NERD!)

You can still have a roommate or sublet a room. This esentially reduced your costs 35-40%. (a 2 bedroom still costs more than a 1 bedroom) If your roommate has a child then you are in good shape and can split babysitting and toys/clothing swapping.

Health benefits at work are not needed becaouse you are eligible for public asistance. Medicare offeres reduced cost insurance and most states offer no cost (such as medi-cal in CA) for low income households.

Daycare is a problem. However now that you've reduced your living costs with a roommate, moved to a less expensive area and picked up free or low cost health inusrance you can afford it. (If you can't find a co-op partner or don't live in a state with free preeschool or belong to a church that offers this)

Finally there is the problem of what you are doing with your social life. For seven years you've been on a spaceship and not had a man. It is time to start dating. Luckily for you it is free except babysitting. If you find Mr. Right then you have finally fixed the broken formula. You have a two-parent household and life becomes much more simple - which is the most important part of the lesson.

All of your comments have been evaluated through the course of this thread.

let's see, taking kids away from homes where it is 100% certain they aren't getting the care they need, and moving them into homes with a 25% chance of maltreatment...i play the odds, i'm afraid, and if 25% is the best we can do then at least it beats a 100% chance of neglect and/or abuse.

furthermore, i completely support moving funding into adoption programs and the foster care system, to improve conditions for children who must be taken away from abusive or neglectful parents. as for prison wages being low, who cares? they stay in prison until they put their kids through college (or pay off all the kid's loans), and if that takes their whole life then that's fine by me...at least they won't be able to make any more babies while in jail.

The entire point of this thread... would be for that funding to go to single working parents so they can care for their child.

The entire point of this thread... would be for that funding to go to single working parents so they can care for their child.
No, the entire point of the thread is to be selective of who you procreate with, being certain they will be there and able to share in the cost and nurturing of the child for the long haul.

No, the entire point of the thread is to be selective of who you procreate with, being certain they will be there and able to share in the cost and nurturing of the child for the long haul.

What do you propose, people submitting applications for a background check before being approved for a date?

What do you propose, people submitting applications for a background check before being approved for a date?
I consider myself fairly modern, yet I don't try to procreate on the first date. (at least when I was dating back in my single days) Dating itself IS a background check in many ways.

The entire point of this thread... would be for that funding to go to single working parents so they can care for their child.
Though you have to admit the guidelines of this assignment are pushed to the point of being silly (worst of the worst case)
I would be willing to bet that it is a VERY small amount of real people fit to the guidelines presented by your teach/prof

Though you have to admit the guidelines of this assignment are pushed to the point of being silly (worst of the worst case)
I would be willing to bet that it is a VERY small amount of real people fit to the guidelines presented by your teach/prof

Only about 4 million people.

I consider myself fairly modern, yet I don't try to procreate on the first date. (at least when I was dating back in my single days) Dating itself IS a background check in many ways.

Where are you supposed to find "suitable" courtships when you're in the lowest of conditions? "All he needs from me is sex" Joe is a lot more suitable then "abusive" Joe.

Hopefully the lesson learned from this assignment is how much preparation you should put into your life, not how stupid some people can be. And certainly not how much of our life should be given to the ignorant and lazy by the government to overcome their problems.

Where are you supposed to find "suitable" courtships when you're in the lowest of conditions? "All he needs from me is sex" Joe is a lot more suitable then "abusive" Joe.
why do you need courtships, if they are of that sort? why lower your standards to accept the attentions of men who only want sex? i think it's pretty pathetic to date a shallow and disinterested fellow just because you can tell yourself, "at least he doesn't beat me." if that's the best you could do then you are better off alone.

The entire point of this thread... would be for that funding to go to single working parents so they can care for their child.
i don't support that in the slightest. single working parents don't deserve any more or less funding than any other parents, or indeed any other citizens. children who are in the care of the state (those that have been taken away or put into the foster care system) require funding, and programs that deal with placement of those children deserve funding, but private citizens should not be given any government assistence when it comes to rearing the children they have chosen to produce.

if i choose wisely, find a worthy mate, produce a single child, and maintain a career that supports my family beautifully, then why should i be punished by having my hard-earned money given to people who made poor choices and fail to support their families? i have no problem supporting children the state cares for, but i strongly object to supporting other private families because their bad decisions have left them in a tough spot.

i don't support that in the slightest. single working parents don't deserve any more or less funding than any other parents, or indeed any other citizens. children who are in the care of the state (those that have been taken away or put into the foster care system) require funding, and programs that deal with placement of those children deserve funding, but private citizens should not be given any government assistence when it comes to rearing the children they have chosen to produce.

if i choose wisely, find a worthy mate, produce a single child, and maintain a career that supports my family beautifully, then why should i be punished by having my hard-earned money given to people who made poor choices and fail to support their families? i have no problem supporting children the state cares for, but i strongly object to supporting other private families because their bad decisions have left them in a tough spot.

What about cases of rape? Those mothers didn't choose to produce the resulting child. Of course, they could have chosen to kill said child (abortion); would you support mandatory abortions in case of rape to get around welfare? Somehow, I doubt it...

Where are you supposed to find "suitable" courtships when you're in the lowest of conditions? "All he needs from me is sex" Joe is a lot more suitable then "abusive" Joe.
Ah, so accourding to you poor men make bad fathers. They are all sex fiends or abusers. nice.

Oh, and there aren't 4 million, there are 15. Of course, I made up that number, just like you.

What about cases of rape? Those mothers didn't choose to produce the resulting child. Of course, they could have chosen to kill said child (abortion); would you support mandatory abortions in case of rape to get around welfare? Somehow, I doubt it...
Few people object to abortion in the even of rape or incest. Adoption is also a valid option. The number of women who are single parents as a result of rape are few.

Ah, so accourding to you poor men make bad fathers. They are all sex fiends or abusers. nice.


Great way to twist my words. So according to you, everyone is surrounded by perfect men.


Oh, and there aren't 4 million, there are 15. Of course, I made up that number, just like you.

[Sarcasm]I didn't research this.[/quote]

Source: Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America, by Barbara Ehrenreich.

Oh snap.

You better be pretty damned sure before you accuse me of making things up.

Few people object to abortion in the even of rape or incest. Adoption is also a valid option. The number of women who are single parents as a result of rape are few.

I am aware that those who oppose abortion even in cases of rape are a small minority. I was pointing out, however, the inconsistencies of those few who do oppose abortion in the case of rape, and also oppose welfare for the existing child.

For adoption to work, there has to be someone willing to adopt the child, which isn't a guarantee.

Sometimes uberconservatives amaze me. I have the feeling that the poster with whom I was originally responding to might fall in this category.

For adoption to work, there has to be someone willing to adopt the child, which isn't a guarantee.

.
There is presently a waiting list and has been for some time.

There is presently a waiting list and has been for some time.
unfortunately, the waiting list is simply there because of screening procedures and red tape...if the numbers are actually compared, the reality is that there are roughly 10 times more children waiting for families then there are families waiting to adopt them.

unfortunately, the waiting list is simply there because of screening procedures and red tape...if the numbers are actually compared, the reality is that there are roughly 10 times more children waiting for families then there are families waiting to adopt them.
according to whom?

according to whom?
I’ve been looking myself … all I can find out is how to get onto an adoption waiting list lol (but I’ve been distracted by work so … yeah)

according to whom?
according to:

AFCARS, CWLA, and even the US census data, all point to roughly 110,000 children who are currently eligible for adoption waiting in America alone. more than three times that number are "gray area" kids, where they are in the foster system and don't have parental rights fully terminated, or are wards of the state (or in juvi), or have complicating factors like serious health problems that keep them off the straight listings. when you start looking at world statistics the numbers get depressing in a hurry...an estimated 2 million children in African countries have been processed through various organizations and are awaiting adoption procedures, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 700,000 children in South East Asia. the US is actually a world leader in adoption, so these children are largely looking for homes with American or Canadian families...but we already have more children looking for homes in our own country than we seem able to provide.

though many people cite huge figures of parents wanting to adopt, what they fail to realize is that many of those couples or individuals will not be found to be competant parents. we don't just give a baby to anybody who says they want one, and it is only fair to consider the homes that actually CAN care for a child in our estimates. a commonly cited statistic is that there are 3.3 waiting parents for every successful adoption, but that number is based purely on people who enter the process; it's not based on people who are actually CLEARED for adoption, or even people who get to advanced stages of the process. for instance, according to the National Survey on Family Growth (circa 1998, i believe), about 2 million women ages 15 to 44 (3.5%) had ever sought to adopt a child, but of these, 1.3 million dropped out of the adoption process before adopting. less than 700,000 had successfully adopted, and only about 300,000 were still looking.

EDIT: to be especially clear, the 10-to-1 figure i gave originally is if you look WORLD WIDE, total number of children to total number of capable and willing adoptive homes. i wrote a paper on this a couple years ago and did the math way back when, and i am trying to dig it out to get the direct numbers. i just cited some quick stats to give you the flavor of it, but i shall try to get you more solid stuff if at all possible.

I like the phrase "work or die"! Havent heard that before.
IMO everybody deserves a basic standard of living, whether they're too lazy to work or not is irrelavent - nobody deserves to be homeless & live on the street. That seems to be one of the points of the 'Lazy' arguement; these people actually deserve to be there - fankly I cant think of many opinions less compassionate and more unpleasant.


You know actually some of them it's not that there to lazy it's that there life could have gotten ruined a long tim ago. I know this person that now is homless and has the crappiest life but you know what the sad thing is they used to have a good life and lots of money. Its amazing how easily people can get screwed. And you know some of them cant get a job and its not because they are lazy

You know actually some of them it's not that there to lazy it's that there life could have gotten ruined a long tim ago. I know this person that now is homless and has the crappiest life but you know what the sad thing is they used to have a good life and lots of money. Its amazing how easily people can get screwed. And you know some of them cant get a job and its not because they are lazy
exactly. People screw over other people. It seems to be part of capatalism (im not an anti-capatalist nut, calm down :rolleyes: ). It's just accepted - if you can screw over somebody else to get that promotion or whatever, even if they deserve it, its ok to do it cos thats the way the system works. I don't like it. It's that kind of attitudes that can ruin lives, marrages and leave honest, hard working people on the street.

Example: my parents. they started a company in 1984 after my dad worked for Schweppes and before that Glaxo-Smith-Kline as a brand manager for both. My mum was a PR manager for some PR firm in London. Hard-working people. This company they started was worth £6 million by 1991. Then a useless empoyee (who used to shove any letters of complaint into a shoe-box under her desk for eg), who was also sleeping with a client, got found out to be fiddling the books to get more ££. She was told off, but not fired. In her revenge she scuppered relatonships with my parents' clients by talking very negatively behind their backs, and pursuaded the client she was screwing to file a case of fraud against my parents. This went to court and the case was completely dismissed as there was no evidence (simply not true). Unfortunatley, if your client gets taken to court for fraud this has a slightly negative impact on what you think of them... and my the company lost a lot of clients in the process. This was not helped a few months later when another client took a £50,000 investment from my parents, and declared himself (legally) bankrupt... with the money in a trust fund. Thus he stole the money. Then the 1992 recession kicked in, arguably engineered for political gain by the Conservative government of the time, and all this fucked them completely.

I was one of those snotty kids who said 'upper-middle class culture is the best because our family works for our money' etc... but I know different now. I was one of those people who said stuff like 'people deserve everything they get - they're the ones making their own choices'. I know different now.
Money doesn't mean a thing in 'class'. Being 'hard working' doesn't mean a thing either - it just depends on who is the bigger bastard, and who is going to screw you over the most. Or are you going to screw other people over before they get a chance?
For completeness, my parents still run the same company, but by themselves, with no employees, out of the bedroom in the house, earning just enough to pay the bills... 12 years later.

rant over (what a rant :) ) but that's why I believe that everybody dererves a certian standard of life - nobody deserves to be on the street. It might be their fault, it might not... who cares? they're still people - still humans with feelings and desires - and nobody dererves it.
That's also why i don't like (right-wing) conservatives (incidentally, both people who screwed my parents over in that little story were Conservative-voters, and the second one was a devout church goer, also a member of his local conservative club. he was, we found out sometime later, having an affair... good christian man then :rolleyes: )


and if you read all that you deserve a prize!

exactly. People screw over other people. It seems to be part of capatalism (im not an anti-capatalist nut, calm down :rolleyes: ).
Seems to be part of humanity itself but capitalism gives a little more freedom to act on such things

Seems to be part of humanity itself but capitalism gives a little more freedom to act on such things
oh god we're going down a Hobbes vs Rousseau arguement again... :eek: :)

oh god we're going down a Hobbes vs Rousseau arguement again... :eek: :)
Hmmm not familiar with that one

Enlighten me :D

Hmmm not familiar with that one

Enlighten me :D
sorry - I just did an essay on this for my Political Theory module...

Thomas Hobbes (17th Century British political philosopher, living during the English Civil War) was basically of the opinion that humans were, by nature, animals. Without society or government ("a power to keep them in awe") everyone would simply do whatever it takes to survive - be it murder or otherwise. Basically, its a 'war of all, against all'.

Rousseau (an inspiration for the French Revolution) said that this was wrong. Humans, if left without government (in the 'state of nature') would have no reason for conflict - there would be resources enough to go around and nobody would need fight. He argued that Hobbes had taken modern, 'civil' man, with his desires for wealth, power and aquisition, and placed him in a pre-political society; and that's why Hobbes' vision is in a state of war. Without the effects of society, man would be peaceful and desire little other than to eat, drink, have shade, sleep and fuck. It is because, somewhere along the line towards constructing society and politics, somebody said "this is mine" that the sysetem has been corrupted with greed, anger and 'unpleasantries'.

Basically Hobbes says that its all-against-all and survival of the fittest. Rousseau argues that this is modern society, capatalism, and that it need not be this way.
They go on to talk about individual freedom, the role of the state, the importance of god and morality, but that's the gist of it anyway.

sorry - I just did an essay on this for my Political Theory module...

Thomas Hobbes (17th Century British political philosopher, living during the English Civil War) was basically of the opinion that humans were, by nature, animals. Without society or government ("a power to keep them in awe") everyone would simply do whatever it takes to survive - be it murder or otherwise. Basically, its a 'war of all, against all'.

Rousseau (an inspiration for the French Revolution) said that this was wrong. Humans, if left without government (in the 'state of nature') would have no reason for conflict - there would be resources enough to go around and nobody would need fight. He argued that Hobbes had taken modern, 'civil' man, with his desires for wealth, power and aquisition, and placed him in a pre-political society; and that's why Hobbes' vision is in a state of war. Without the effects of society, man would be peaceful and desire little other than to eat, drink, have shade, sleep and fuck. It is because, somewhere along the line towards constructing society and politics, somebody said "this is mine" that the sysetem has been corrupted with greed, anger and 'unpleasantries'.

Basically Hobbes says that its all-against-all and survival of the fittest. Rousseau argues that this is modern society, capatalism, and that it need not be this way.
They go on to talk about individual freedom, the role of the state, the importance of god and morality, but that's the gist of it anyway.

Got it :)

Thanks … learn something new every day

Decent minimum wage?

No. Really, no. If you do a 40 hour week on the minimum wage you can just about scrape rent, food, and transport to/from work. Bear in mind that most minimum wage jobs are in places like warehouses - the second most dangerous profession, next to army soldier. So it's not like warehouse workers are lazy good for nothing bums. Trust me, I've done my time dekitting trailers, stacking shelves and order picking (and dodging fork lifts, and jumping clear of improperly-parked trailers toppling, and dodged tons of falling stock, and..).
here warehouse workers get a lot more than minimum wage. i worked in a warehouse getting $10 an hour for a couple weeks in the summer.

retail and fast food are where you get minumum wage.

Got it :)

Thanks … learn something new every day
no problem :cool:

here warehouse workers get a lot more than minimum wage. i worked in a warehouse getting $10 an hour for a couple weeks in the summer.

retail and fast food are where you get minumum wage.
Hell even around here Mc Donald’s is paying almost 2 above minimum wage (which is surprising because we have such a low Cost of Living)

Hell even around here Mc Donald’s is paying almost 2 above minimum wage (which is surprising because we have such a low Cost of Living)
wha..?

wow, the mcdonalds around here have a habit of firing people when they come up for raises based on the number of hours they work. and they start people off at minimum wage.

Dakini: that's just a result of how McDonald's works. When you're working in a minimum wage job, you're really little more than chattel- if you go they'll find someone else (or three) who would take your place. You get laid off or fired at whim.

(I know it's a harsh simplification of things but it's reality)

Also, to those who say "you're poor: it's your fault", I'd like to say that it's not easy to get a job. You have to work just as hard to get a job as you would to keep it, and that process can take a while. Jobs don't just magically appear you know.

Well I read the first page and the last... And I have to say this just because i have had experience at being in the situation described... well except for a few differences.... Those being I had someone willing to provide childcare in exchange for other services (housecleaning and errand running )

While looking for work I did have to get on "welfair" It payed 427 a month, that did not even cover my rent.. and it takes up to 3 years to get an any kind of housing program... I took advantage of a program that helped me get some college under my belt so I could look for work for something above minimum wage... which I am grateful for... but while I was going to school I had to find a way to suppliment my income and yet still be able to go to school full time and have time to care for my special needs child... so I donated plasma... it brought in 160 a month... So that finished paying off my rent and gave me a little for electric and phone so i could get calls in case i did get called for a job.. which i was still looking for all through the schooling process as well... so when i was done with school most of the places i now had the skills for wanted experience i didn't have... so I went through the State's "work" program... which pretty much farms out people so they gain "experience" and you were required to put in 40 hrs a week as well as look for work.. leaves you little in the way of free time when you factor in I still had to donate Plasma to make it at all.... I got off the roller coaster by pure luck... I now work full time as a caregiver for the person I was doing odd jobs for... I can now afford to live... and have time to do for my child what he needs... but while I was in the "program" I was working very very hard to get out of it and stand on my own...
Poor does not mean lazy by any stretch.... I should know....

which is why you are no longer poor....

Oh hell I still am poor..lol I live in a shoddy apartment and shop at discount stores... or should I say terminally broke...lol but I am off the stupid welfair system and can finally afford to get my kid something neat for Christmas.. so yeah I am kinda proud of that *smiles*

(If you would like to follow along with a map or something, this is in Suffolk County, on Long Island [aka NYC Metro area])

And so we started. I started by looking in the classifieds Newsday for apartments. Forget it, it took over 8 hours to weed through any possibilities, just to find that there were no apartments available, less than $950 that would allow a child.

Now as for my job, I aimed at getting a job at a Starbucks because they give full health benefits to employees that work half time or more. Plus the starting pay was very fair for someone with no skills, 7.25/hr. And another reason for choosing them was that I knew that almost anywhere I lived, there would be one near by. But this turned out to be less easy than I thought.

After over 6 hours (after the 8 hours I spent with Newsday) of sifting through Yankee Traders and Penny Savers, calling apartments and Starbucks alike, I lucked out. I found one Starbucks that would hire someone full-time (with flexible hours too!) in East Setauket. Coincidentily, the cheapest apartment I could find that allowed a child was also in East Setauket! This was particularly lucky since I had to (as a person in this situation would) call during non-business hours, since we would be working/in-school during business hours.

So for $700/mo I had an apartment, and I was earning $870 after tax plus health benefits by working full time, 8-4 Mon. to Fri. at starbucks. To be honest, I just assumed for my own sanity's sake that starbucks would actually give me those hours.

Great, 170 dollar profit! Err... wait... expenses like food and.... kid! Darn! So back to the classifieds where I found a lady in Ronkonkama who ran a daycare in her home for $4/hr. Really cheap actually. So I would have to drop my kid off at 7:30, and pick up at 4:30. (Ronkonkoma is probably a longer distance to travel than that, but f-it.) Okay, so 9 hours a day, at 4 dollars an hour, everyday I work at starbucks...$720!


So I have 150 dollars to cover everything else... at least healthcare is covered (estimated at 200 dollar value). So in two words... another job.

Oh yeah, I need a car to bring my child to daycare, so theres another $200 a month for insurance and basic gas. So now I'm -50 dollars. Theres not alot you can buy with -50 dollars, I can tell you.

Here I stretched a bit, since I had worked at the restaurant Dockside over the summer, I knew their wages and hiring practices. Basically, all I could get was 3 decent nights a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, from 6-closing (average of 5 hours a night) to average the earnings at $125 a night. So after tax, that brought in an additional $1125 dollars during the month.

I was able to get a babysitter to come to my apartment for those times for $6/hr. My mom said that I was assuming the babysitter would show up. I didn't care. So that child care cost 270 a month.

I planned to spend my weekends with my child at a library or other public facility.

So here is a chart of the Incomes/exenses:

$1995 :Total income per month
$870 : Starbucks Income
$1125 : Dockside Income

$1940 :Total expenses per month
$700 : Housing
$720 : Child Care during Starbucks
$270 : Child Care during Dockside
$200 : Automobile insurance and gas
$10 : Phone (Virgin Mobile Pay-as-you-go)
$10 : Clothing (Thrift store I can get clothing for 50 cents to $1 a piece
$15 : Appliances (2 Toothbrushes, toothpaste, 2 rolls toilet paper, soap, etc)
$65 : Food (I worked it out completely, this is feasible)

(Lets just say ramen noodles are a large part of my diet, costing 11.25 for a months worth. Then add on some vitamins and some bananas)

So after working 55 hours a week, I'll 55 dollars left over, right? Because as we all know, nothing ever breaks or goes wrong, and no one ever gets sick. And geez, look at my food cost. Odds are my professor is going to make me use all the extra money towards my food and appliance budget. Although I really wish I could afford a sleeping bag for me and my kid to sleep on.

On the bright side, your child is four so most of the extra costs associated with babies are gone.

the downside?

Starting next year you need to worry about finding a way to start getting them too and from school. This may mean finding a diferent day care who will get him/her too and from the school. You will save on the costs for the hours they are in school, but such people are probably more expensive to start off with - so it's a wash. You also will need some supplies for that, and - if living in a northern clime - proper winter wear.

Also, remember to factor in sick days. And it's not just yours you have to worry about. You might get sick. Your day care will probably not accept a sick child. Your babysitter might get sick.

So subtract a day a month of income. Minimum.


However, to point you in some other cost savings directions, do you have local church-run (or other) food banks? You would qualify. Also, check out your city for any day care subsidization, housing subsidization, or other programs for the poor. If you don;t at least try to find out what is out there, your prof will mark you down. At least tell him what you tried to find.

Other options: Check into shared accommodations allowing children. Or, look into renting a larger apartment and renting out a room to a boarder.



But yes, as you have discovered, being poor puts you into a situation where you will be spending so much of your time taking care of immediate needs that the idea of getting schooling to drag your ass out of poverty is almost impossible.

bump

$1995 :Total income per month

Indeed. And if you think that's difficult, try supporting eight people with that much.

bump

But yes, as you have discovered, being poor puts you into a situation where you will be spending so much of your time taking care of immediate needs that the idea of getting schooling to drag your ass out of poverty is almost impossible.
Being a single parent compunds the problem far worse than just being poor.

Oh hell I still am poor..lol I live in a shoddy apartment and shop at discount stores... or should I say terminally broke...lol but I am off the stupid welfair system and can finally afford to get my kid something neat for Christmas.. so yeah I am kinda proud of that *smiles*
Heck, I shop at discount stores, and I am closer to being a millionaire than being poor.

You should be proud. I hope you and your kid have a merry Christmas.