NationStates Jolt Archive

During a discussion on genocide and stuff, I got on a high horse and posted something like "we all remember those horrid Scandinavian atrocities". The thread was closed before a reply could be posted. It came to me by telegram. This is the reply:

"Yeah, everyone remembers those horrid Scandinavian atrocities!

Well, as a Finn, I would remember them. Do note that the Finns were enslaved by the Swedes and the Russians in a back and forth tug of war of soverignty for quite some period.

And, if I'm not mistaken, the Scandinavians were also the Vikings. We could go on for days about atrocities.

That they got it out of their system by the 1960s does not make them blameless."

By Vastiva. I thought it was a waste to keep a good post to myself and got permission to post it again.

I'm confused. Is Finland part of Scandinavia or not? Some, like me include Finland, others don't.

With regards to the Vikings, they didn't exactly know alot about Christianity when they sacked Lindisfarne.

With regards to the Vikings, they didn't exactly know alot about Christianity when they sacked Lindisfarne.

Lots of gold, little weaponry, enough really :p

I'm confused. Is Finland part of Scandinavia or not? Some, like me include Finland, others don't.

what about Denmark?

what about Denmark?
Eeeh...Scandinavian.

We shall never forget these atrocities

Lots of gold, little weaponry, enough really :p

Try telling your wife "We spent weeks sailing to a different country to bring back essential food and money, landed, decided the natives were a bunch of nice chaps really, and left empty-handed (Keeping in mind Viking women could divorce their husbands for virtually anything)"

Hej alle amerikanske fjolser som ikke kan deres historie ;) Oversæt venligst ikke denne sætning til nogen engelsk sproget person :D

Skandinavia is: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland.

You can not talk about atrocities, when it happend in the 700 century. That would be a anacronism... anakornisme (Wrong spelling... sorry :confused: ). I dont think the scandinavians ever made a prober genoside outside Scandinavia. And only a few atrocitie. :P

Harry "the bastard"

Scandinavians are Evil!

Hej alle amerikanske fjolser som ikke kan deres historie ;) Oversæt venligst ikke denne sætning til nogen engelsk sproget person :D

Skandinavia is: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland.

You can not talk about atrocities, when it happend in the 700 century. That would be a anacronism... anakornisme (Wrong spelling... sorry :confused: ). I dont think the scandinavians ever made a prober genoside outside Scandinavia. And only a few atrocitie. :P

Harry "the bastard"

I think the point he's trying to make is that no nation is innocent. (Espescially my ancestors, bloody germans...)

Noooo! Don´t hate us! Please, I beg of you!

Hej alle amerikanske fjolser som ikke kan deres historie ;) Oversæt venligst ikke denne sætning til nogen engelsk sproget person :D

Skandinavia is: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland.

You can not talk about atrocities, when it happend in the 700 century. That would be a anacronism... anakornisme (Wrong spelling... sorry :confused: ). I dont think the scandinavians ever made a prober genoside outside Scandinavia. And only a few atrocitie. :P

Harry "the bastard"

Fjols. Island tilhorer ikke skandinavien. Heller ikke gronland. De Nordiske lande, det er noget andet.

Fjols. Island tilhorer ikke skandinavien. Heller ikke gronland. De Nordiske lande, det er noget andet.

Island tillhör visst Skandinavien, enligt mina skolböcker i alla fall, ^^

I think the point he's trying to make is that no nation is innocent.
True. But what difference does it make?

Island tillhör visst Skandinavien, enligt mina skolböcker i alla fall, ^^

...dina skolböckar har det forkert! Kig paa defineringen i britannica!

http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=scandinavia

ok, everyone is right

It's Norway, Sweden and Denmark according to Wikipedia, which is was I was taught in school, though it says other countries may include Finland and/or Iceland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

Back to the atrocites, why are there no terrorist attacks on the nordic countries? Is it because no-one bears a grudge?

Skandinavia is Denmark, Sweden, Norway + Iceland and Finland.

Skandinavia is also Iceland because: They where a part of Denmark untill only resently. They Are closely related by blood to the Norwegians and Danish people. Norway was a part of the Danish Kingdom for almost 800 Years. From about 1100 AC untill 1800. So Iceland is a part of the Scandinavian culture. The word "Skandinavia" is older than the independence of Iceland. Therefore i think per definition Iceland must be included into skandinavia.

Skandinavia is also Finland because: There has always been a large number of Swedish people in the Western and southern part of Finland. There are still a large number of Swedish people in Finland. Finland was ruled by the swedish people for many years. Our culture is very much alike. Our language is not the same, but I still think they should be included into the skandinavian "Family".

Harry

Back to the atrocites, why are there no terrorist attacks on the nordic countries? Is it because no-one bears a grudge?
Maybe because they fear retaliation.

If you ask me, the Scandanavian Vikings founded much more than atrocities in Scandanavia. They were among the best sailors in that time, the best traders...and sure they were ruthless ones.

Sometimes attrocities of the past are what makes a Nation's tradition. I'm partly an American Indian, my folk were massacred (and we massacred too),driven from homelands and most of us...were sent to Oklahoma.
That's were many of us stayed, and from the ashes, created new traditions.
Same thing with Scandanavians I suppose.

But the Scandanavians make up for that with the greatest Metal ever...
Let's hear it for In Flames, Dimmu Borgir and Borknagar, the bringers of goodwill. The soothsayers whom atone for past misgivings.

Scandinavia is "t3h l33t 0wnz0rz". They were one of the last Pagan peoples. Actually, pretty much the last. Yeah, the Vikings sure showed those Chirstian pussies what was better for a time... And plus, Iceland has the world's oldest Parliament, the Althingi.

-The Vikings quite early left the Pagan tradition. From 900-1000 they converted quite quickly. They did however still burn and pillage the English for seval more years :)

Quote:

Sometimes attrocities of the past are what makes a Nation's tradition. I'm partly an American Indian, my folk were massacred (and we massacred too),driven from homelands and most of us...were sent to Oklahoma.
That's were many of us stayed, and from the ashes, created new traditions.
Same thing with Scandanavians I suppose.

-The Scandinavian people have never been driven from their homeland. We have always hold our ground. We where never massacred by anybody.

I dont think we have much i common with the indians. Of cause we had settlements in North america and Greenland for seval years around 1000 AD. But the bloody Indians didnt like us :confused: So the Vikings proberly move away from North America... quite fast.

Harry "The Bastard" (English is not my native language)

If you ask me, the Scandanavian Vikings founded much more than atrocities in Scandanavia. They were among the best sailors in that time, the best traders...and sure they were ruthless ones.

Sometimes attrocities of the past are what makes a Nation's tradition. I'm partly an American Indian, my folk were massacred (and we massacred too),driven from homelands and most of us...were sent to Oklahoma.
That's were many of us stayed, and from the ashes, created new traditions.
Same thing with Scandanavians I suppose.

But the Scandanavians make up for that with the greatest Metal ever...
Let's hear it for In Flames, Dimmu Borgir and Borknagar, the bringers of goodwill. The soothsayers whom atone for past misgivings.
ABBA!!!!

Haha, well, perhaps my anology was a bit off. But I wasn't making a comparison to how Scandanavians were massacred, or were herded away from their homelands. I was simply saying that out of any attrocity for the long term (be it for one people, or against them) can be engrained within their traditions. Hopefully this will clear up misconception..or simply cause more. :)

And, us Indians, we did it for the Casinos and excellent healthcare.

-The Scandinavian people have never been driven from their homeland. We have always hold our ground. We where never massacred by anybody.
We did, however, oppress the Sami people living in the northern regions of Norway, Sweden and Finland. There were also many wars between the Scandinavian countries.

We've done our fair share of murdering and oppressing in Scandinavia. It all worked out rather well for us in the end though, it's a very stable region today.

Quote:

We've done our fair share of murdering and oppressing in Scandinavia. It all worked out rather well for us in the end though, it's a very safe region today.

-Danes/Norwegians/Swedish people did (Ofcause) in war Kill, Maim, Torture, Slay, Rape and Burn eachother :fluffle: But we never kill off whole populations... sometimes a little conquest of enemy land when required. :)


Harry "the Bastard" (My native language is not english)

...
We've done our fair share of murdering and oppressing in Scandinavia. It all worked out rather well for us in the end though, it's a very stable region today.

Scandinavia...probably the best place in the world :D

-The Vikings quite early left the Pagan tradition. From 900-1000 they converted quite quickly. They did however still burn and pillage the English for seval more years :)

Quote:

Sometimes attrocities of the past are what makes a Nation's tradition. I'm partly an American Indian, my folk were massacred (and we massacred too),driven from homelands and most of us...were sent to Oklahoma.
That's were many of us stayed, and from the ashes, created new traditions.
Same thing with Scandanavians I suppose.

-The Scandinavian people have never been driven from their homeland. We have always hold our ground. We where never massacred by anybody.

I dont think we have much i common with the indians. Of cause we had settlements in North america and Greenland for seval years around 1000 AD. But the bloody Indians didnt like us :confused: So the Vikings proberly move away from North America... quite fast.

Harry "The Bastard" (English is not my native language)

Actually in Minnesota at least, Swedes and the local Native Americans did intermarry a bit. There were some points of culture in common.

Sweden was Chritianized pretty early on. They adopted Christianity with very little pagan admixture in their religion.
In Sweden itself the main attrocities committed were when Sweden changed from Catholic to Protestant. That was a bad time. Catholics had no choice but to become Lutheran.

Over all I don't think Scandinavians are any more inclined to commit attrocities than other nations.
The Vikings got an undeservedly bad press. Yes some of them did terrible things but far more often they engaged in legitimate trade all over the world.

All the modern Scandinavian nations do a lot of valuable peace-keeping work in very dangerous places and I know that all of the modern Scandinavian nations have been helpful in taking in refugees from other places.
Still my late mother used to fondly, very fondly refer to Swedes as 'the Swedish Menace'!
Katarina of Zahumlje
(English isn't my native language either! just ask my kids!)

But the Scandanavians make up for that with the greatest Metal ever...
Let's hear it for In Flames, Dimmu Borgir and Borknagar, the bringers of goodwill. The soothsayers whom atone for past misgivings.


Bleh! Sure we make some good metal but trust me the germans and italians make better (well except for our Neo-classical metal master Yngve Malmsten (Yngwie Malmsteen))! ^^

Now Dimmu Borgir: somewhat okay... I am not all into that growling so... But sure, they do have some fine tunes ^^

In Flames: *pukes* ...don´t ask...

In my opinion the best metal in Scandinavia comes from Finland (yay).

But on the topic, yeah Scandinavia is beautiful and an awesome place to live. Now the don´t get me wrong I love snow and all but my Axe(guitar) doesn´t seem to enjoy it as much as I. :(

And oh, about terror attacks, I wouldn´t worry too much about them. Seeing as we have been quite friendly towards most people on earth (I think...) ;)

Skandinavia is Denmark, Sweden, Norway + Iceland and Finland.

Skandinavia is also Iceland because: They where a part of Denmark untill only resently. They Are closely related by blood to the Norwegians and Danish people. Norway was a part of the Danish Kingdom for almost 800 Years. From about 1100 AC untill 1800. So Iceland is a part of the Scandinavian culture. The word "Skandinavia" is older than the independence of Iceland. Therefore i think per definition Iceland must be included into skandinavia.

Skandinavia is also Finland because: There has always been a large number of Swedish people in the Western and southern part of Finland. There are still a large number of Swedish people in Finland. Finland was ruled by the swedish people for many years. Our culture is very much alike. Our language is not the same, but I still think they should be included into the skandinavian "Family".

Harry


Finland has been ruled by Sweden, that can make us, the Finns, part of Scandinavia. But what I've learned in school Finland isn't part of the Scandinavia; we belong in a Finno-Ugrian language family as the rest (Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark) are Germanic languages.
Our history has been long with Sweden but so it has been with Russia.

About that emphasis I made to Ussel Mammon's post:
The Swedish speaking people in Finland are in fact Swedish speaking Finns (they are about four-five per cent of Finland's population).
They cheer for Finland in Finland-Sweden icehockey matches and so on ;)
Their first language just is Swedish.

Skandinavia is also Iceland because: They where a part of Denmark untill only resently. They Are closely related by blood to the Norwegians and Danish people. Norway was a part of the Danish Kingdom for almost 800 Years. From about 1100 AC untill 1800. So Iceland is a part of the Scandinavian culture. The word "Skandinavia" is older than the independence of Iceland. Therefore i think per definition Iceland must be included into skandinavia.

First of all, 1800 minus 1100 is 700. Not almost 800. Secondly, the Kalmar union did not begin until 1397 and at that time, the three kingdoms were still largely independant of each other. The Swedes quit, and Norway and Denmark were left in the union alone, Norway gradually becoming the weaker part. It was not until 1536, however, that Norway officially was placed under the Danish throne.

So that's 278 (1536-1814) years of official Danish rule. We still haven't forgiven you for weaseling off with Iceland, the Faroes and Greenland, by the way. Sorry. It's just that there's a little nationalist sitting inside my head next to my ear that gets really agitated some times. We're all friends now, right?

Anyway, I think the geographical Scandinavia is in fact Norway, Sweden, Finland and parts of Russia. The historical Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, the islands north of the British mainland and, to some extent, Greenland.

All that being said... As a Norwegian, I'm proud to say that in an age of fear, violence and general unpleasantness, the Vikings were among the most fearsome, violent and generally unpleasant of them all!

I may be proclaiming terrible ignorance here, but I was under the impression from things that I have read that "viking" was what the people did, not what they were. The people were just "the people".


Oh well, if I'm wrong, it's good to find out...... :p

Both. If you head out in viking, you are a viking.

And if you stayed home?

Last atrocity that happened in Scandinavia is, i think, in Ådalen (Sweden) 1931, when the military opened fire at peacful demonstrators, killing 5 people (and injuring a few more)

I may be proclaiming terrible ignorance here, but I was under the impression from things that I have read that "viking" was what the people did, not what they were. The people were just "the people".


Oh well, if I'm wrong, it's good to find out...... :p

The word Viking, was never used by the vikings themselves, or by anyone they enqountered, the historians have discovered. It is a 'new' word, invented in the 16th or 17th century. (They think)
The vikings themselves, called themselves by the 'tribe' names. And the people in Europe and middle east, called them norsemen.
Thats where the word Normandy (a region in France) comes from. It was given by the French king, to a viking chief, and in exchange, the viking promised to stop all viking attacks on France.
And this viking chief was the grand grand grand father (or somehting like that anyway) to William the conqueror


A furore normannorum libera nos domine
Save us oh Lord, from the wrath of the norsemen
inscription found in french churches, from the 10th century.

That's pretty much what I thought. Thanx :)

„ipsi vero pyratae, quos illi wichingos appellant“

(ad 1075)

As a proud son of norway I must say, if you have a problem with the scandinavians, you deserve to be raided and sacked.

:)

Note: scandinavia is the best place in the world to live :)

Quote:

First of all, 1800 minus 1100 is 700. Not almost 800. Secondly, the Kalmar union did not begin until 1397 and at that time, the three kingdoms were still largely independant of each other. The Swedes quit, and Norway and Denmark were left in the union alone, Norway gradually becoming the weaker part. It was not until 1536, however, that Norway officially was placed under the Danish throne.

So that's 278 (1536-1814) years of official Danish rule. We still haven't forgiven you for weaseling off with Iceland, the Faroes and Greenland, by the way. Sorry. It's just that there's a little nationalist sitting inside my head next to my ear that gets really agitated some times. We're all friends now, right?

Anyway, I think the geographical Scandinavia is in fact Norway, Sweden, Finland and parts of Russia. The historical Scandinavia is Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, the islands north of the British mainland and, to some extent, Greenland.

All that being said... As a Norwegian, I'm proud to say that in an age of fear, violence and general unpleasantness, the Vikings were among the most fearsome, violent and generally unpleasant of them all!

-Details... Details! About 800 years... take or give a 100, and not all of them was official. Its not like took the book and cheked the facts! :D

-I think you are quite right about most of your claims :)

-People tend to be very... White/black oriented when the are talking/thinking about the Vikings. I am a Acheologist ... So I know a bit more about it than the avarige person :p

Harry "the Bastard" (English is still not my native language) :)

„ipsi vero pyratae, quos illi wichingos appellant“

(ad 1075)

That refers to the tribe of Vicingoths (dunno the EXACT spelling in english), which was a northern german tribe of barbarians.

The date of the quote also makes it after the viking era, as it ended in 1066 with the battle for Hastings. (There were a few viking raids after this thou, but non very succesful, as the countries in Europe. now had a more organized defence forces, and better government structure. )

visigoths?

http://www.cdli.ca/CITE/vikings_who.pdf

Scandinavian chicks are hot.

Scandinavia is a bit hard thing to define. In the strictest sense it's only the peninsula occupied by Norway and Sweden. Nowadays the word is used to describe the culturally related countries of northern Europe. This latter definition includes Iceland and Finland too (aswell as Denmark of course). In geographical sense Finland and Scandinavia form an area called Fennoscandia.

I'd include to 'Scandinavia' all the members of the Nordic Council (this makes Greenland a part of Scandinavia too, but no definition is perfect). The Council, to my understanding, has tried to launch the term 'Nordic Countries'. This is term is relatively clear and free of historical load.

Last atrocity that happened in Scandinavia is, i think, in Ådalen (Sweden) 1931, when the military opened fire at peacful demonstrators, killing 5 people (and injuring a few more)
Well, I don't know... there must've been some 'small' atrocities occurring when Finland fought the Soviets.

All in all, we are easy going bunch of countries and people, aren't we!? YAY US! :D

Just try to first clear out that scandinavia is there the problem is the english speaking world useally only now and use scandinavia. That actually only is Norway and Sweden and sometimes including denmark in the strict tirm. But I think it also have been used about the nordic community (that atleast we in Sweden call Norden) that includes also Finland and Iceland). My country Sweden have had no wars sens the begining of the 19:th century even if we did some stupid thing or atleast the goverment did like for example the treatment of samis (lapps) and other minorities. And that I understand the other countries has also been peacfull sens then except then they have to defend themself, and then Finland had there civilwar that you can see as a civilwar or a defence against Russia.

-Details... Details! About 800 years... take or give a 100, and not all of them was official. Its not like took the book and cheked the facts! :D

-I think you are quite right about most of your claims :)

-People tend to be very... White/black oriented when the are talking/thinking about the Vikings. I am a Acheologist ... So I know a bit more about it than the avarige person :p

Harry "the Bastard" (English is still not my native language) :)


Between 1030 and 1035, there Norwegian king was a puppet under the Danish king, but when he died, so did that union. Parts of modern day Norway had been Danish until the 1030s, yes, but that's because Norway didn't conquer them until then ;)

...At least, that's what I've been taught in school, for whatever that's worth ;)

The word Viking, was never used by the vikings themselves, or by anyone they enqountered, the historians have discovered. It is a 'new' word, invented in the 16th or 17th century. (They think)
The vikings themselves, called themselves by the 'tribe' names. And the people in Europe and middle east, called them norsemen.
Thats where the word Normandy (a region in France) comes from. It was given by the French king, to a viking chief, and in exchange, the viking promised to stop all viking attacks on France.
And this viking chief was the grand grand grand father (or somehting like that anyway) to William the conqueror[/I]

I may be wrong, but I distinctly remember the expression "å fare i viking" (to go in viking) being used in Snorre Sturlason's "Heimskringla", which was written in the 1200s... I suppose it could just have been the translation, though...

Scandinavians... Errr.
You' know, Scandinavians show me exactly how evil and hopeless the world is. ERR! Scandinavians are the children of the devil! AAAAAAAAHHH!

Between 1030 and 1035, there Norwegian king was a puppet under the Danish king, but when he died, so did that union. Parts of modern day Norway had been Danish until the 1030s, yes, but that's because Norway didn't conquer them until then ;)

...At least, that's what I've been taught in school, for whatever that's worth ;)



I may be wrong, but I distinctly remember the expression "å fare i viking" (to go in viking) being used in Snorre Sturlason's "Heimskringla", which was written in the 1200s... I suppose it could just have been the translation, though...

Ah well.. i might have been wrong with a couple of decades. but.. the main point was... Vikings, did not use the word vikings, and neither did any of the peoplethey enqountered called the vikings. Have to check up on the snprre thing thou,. thanx :)

Scandinavians... Errr.
You' know, Scandinavians show me exactly how evil and hopeless the world is. ERR! Scandinavians are the children of the devil! AAAAAAAAHHH!
Your confusing them with Americans.

The biggest scandanavian atrocity is the 'rock band' HIM,

good looking though