NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm Jewish, through and through. Born, raised, and practicing. I believe in God whole-heartedly and believe him/her/it to be all knowing/all powerful/etc. But, and this is a pretty big but, if God truly does view Homosexuality as a sin then I consign him to Hell and I don't give it a second thought.

God created all things. He/she/it created Heaven, Earth, and Humanty. He/she/it made the Sky blue and the Sun yellow. Furthermore, he/she/it made Gay people Gay. No ifs, ands, or buts here, if people are Gay then God wanted them to be Gay. Or do you truly believe that God can't control something like that? He/she/it can. Now, I pose a question to you: What kind of divine being, what creature worthy of worship, what person with any kind of morality, could create something and punish the creation for the actions of the creator? It would be like imprisoning a child because a parent commited a crime. God is better than that.

I, personally, think that Homosexuality is just fine. I'm not Gay myself (and I have no plans to be Gay) but I recognize that there's nothing wrong with it. I think that God also sees that there is nothing wrong with it. But, if God truly does believe it to be evil, then I think he deserves to rot in Hell. No being worthy of worship, nothing that deserves to be called 'God', could do such a thing.

I say this right now with no fear of being struck down or punished, because I believe that God is a compassionate and wise being. God knows what is right and what is wrong and I trust him/her/it to make the correct decision.

I'd like to think that God is a just and compassionate fellow to most people. However, religion also has a historical habit of being usurped by mortal and politically ambitious men to be used as a tool of control. If this wasn't the case then Karl Marx certainly wouldn't have had as much a reason to write-

Religion is the opiate of the masses.

And while I don't have the exact sources and all stated I do recall someone mentioning that condemning homosexuality was used primarily as a political tool back in the old, old days when the men in power were the ones most likely to indulge in homosexual relationships.

God created all things. He/she/it created Heaven, Earth, and Humanty. He/she/it made the Sky blue and the Sun yellow. Furthermore, he/she/it made Gay people Gay. No ifs, ands, or buts here, if people are Gay then God wanted them to be Gay. Or do you truly believe that God can't control something like that?

I myself, am not really religious, though I do belive in God, and attend church from time to time. I myself, am also Bisexual. And I have thought the exact same things. If God did'nt want it to be, then it wouldn't been created. But must look at the abortion issue this way too. Although I'm against abortion, would he ment it to be, if he didnt want us to know about it/use it. Also, wars. If god didnt want them to be, then he wouldnt have created anything for that use.

A sin is anything that isn't honoring to God. Anything that you do that is against His wishes or against basic morality is a sin. That's pretty broad. When you get into Christianity and the New Testament, Jesus emphasizes that even bad THOUGHTS are sins. I honestly doubt homosexuality, judging by the destruction of Sodom and Gamorra, is something God is hunky-dorey with. Besides, your argument is fallicious, God doesn't make anyone anything. Maybe they have tendencies to do things, like homosexuals to be gay, serial murderers to kill, kleptomaniacs to steal, but not everyone who is inclined to do something wrong does do something wrong.

If God did'nt want it to be, then it wouldn't been created. But must look at the abortion issue this way too.
Then God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey Him? God wants people to murder and rape each other? He wants people to eat people and screw their cats? Just because something is possibly, or appetizing to you, doesn't mean God wants it or that it is right, even in the absence of a divine power.

Not saying God is gay, not saying that at all. But if Jesus Christ was God and God created all, then Jesus Christ created the homosexual.

There might be a little fag in us all.

Not saying God is gay, not saying that at all. But if Jesus Christ was God and God created all, then Jesus Christ created the homosexual.

There might be a little fag in us all.
God no more creates a homosexual than a parent creates a murderer. Neither is responsible for the actions of the person they create.

Yeah, totally I mean when people murder as well, how can God make someone who murders and then say it's wrong?

What about theft?

It's considered a moral sin, ok. If you don't believe it, don't live by it, this society certainly doesn't make you.

I'm Jewish, through and through. Born, raised, and practicing. I believe in God whole-heartedly and believe him/her/it to be all knowing/all powerful/etc. But, and this is a pretty big but, if God truly does view Homosexuality as a sin then I consign him to Hell and I don't give it a second thought.

God created all things. He/she/it created Heaven, Earth, and Humanty. He/she/it made the Sky blue and the Sun yellow. Furthermore, he/she/it made Gay people Gay. No ifs, ands, or buts here, if people are Gay then God wanted them to be Gay. Or do you truly believe that God can't control something like that? He/she/it can. Now, I pose a question to you: What kind of divine being, what creature worthy of worship, what person with any kind of morality, could create something and punish the creation for the actions of the creator? It would be like imprisoning a child because a parent commited a crime. God is better than that.

I, personally, think that Homosexuality is just fine. I'm not Gay myself (and I have no plans to be Gay) but I recognize that there's nothing wrong with it. I think that God also sees that there is nothing wrong with it. But, if God truly does believe it to be evil, then I think he deserves to rot in Hell. No being worthy of worship, nothing that deserves to be called 'God', could do such a thing.

I say this right now with no fear of being struck down or punished, because I believe that God is a compassionate and wise being. God knows what is right and what is wrong and I trust him/her/it to make the correct decision.

You sure have a demented form of belief IMO. God created all, yes that is true, but God did not make a gay person gay. They made themselves gay by their own free will, which God gave us free will. We either follow his rules to become closer to God, or sin and get put away from the presence of God a.k.a. Hell. He didn't make the serial killer a murderer, the insane crazy, or the evil bad. They did it with free will along with a little thing called Satan. Denying free will is denying the existence of God or even your own existence.

Now we begin to see how religion makes no sense, and that Atheism is the answer. :D

As someone once said (I can't remember who) something along the lines of: "I find it hard to believe in an all-loving, all-powerful god who creates faulty humans and then blames all his mistakes on them."

They made themselves gay by their own free will
That's pure tripe. You cannot choose your sexuality; proven psycological fact. It's like claiming someone is choosing to be black or white.

And as for your argument about the rules of God; the Bible (the word of God as use by so many people) sanctions genocide, incest and murder. Go figure.

Exscuse me! How dare you imply that people choose if they are gay. Most gay people are BORN gay, they can't choose it. It is the same thing about Both sexes. If you are a guy, and you look at a girl you like, you feel aroused, although when you first experiance this you are not compleatly sure what it means. If you are a gay man, and you see a guy you like, you can't HELP it, no more you can help liking girls. There is no way to change it. There is nothing wrong with gay people, I happen to know 4 myself. What is sinful about being born with something you can't control. That is like sending someone to death for liking women, it is stupid. If Gays had been normal, and you or me not, what would your argument be?

As someone once said (I can't remember who) something along the lines of: "I find it hard to believe in an all-loving, all-powerful god who creates faulty humans and then blames all his mistakes on them."

What is faulty about God giving humans a free will? If He hadn't given you a free will, you wouldn't have the opportunity of being pissed off with Him, would you? :rolleyes:

They made themselves gay by their own free will, which God gave us free will.

I think you're totally missing the point here. Do you really think that people choose to be gay? Even in societies such as the American one where they're denied rights, and countries in the middle east where they may be locked up or executed? People don't choose to be gay any more than they choose to be straight.

Then God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey Him? God wants people to murder and rape each other? He wants people to eat people and screw their cats? Just because something is possibly, or appetizing to you, doesn't mean God wants it or that it is right, even in the absence of a divine power.

first of all, congratulations on saying what everyone thought you were going ot say, way to not have a personality, way to go.....seriously


second of all, yes i do think god wanted adam and eve to disobey "Him" because if he didn't why did "He" tempt them in the first place??

third of all, you objection is completely wrong, the correct response would be:


"WHY COULDN'T HAVE GOD CREATED FREE WILLL???????????????" which is what you kinda said, but you didn't clairify it enough for me to not be an asshole about it (seriously dude fuck you)


and i base this on the fact that i know more than anybody ever(that ever lived) about anything(anything)


...later jerks

You sure have a demented form of belief IMO. God created all, yes that is true, but God did not make a gay person gay. They made themselves gay by their own free will, which God gave us free will. We either follow his rules to become closer to God, or sin and get put away from the presence of God a.k.a. Hell. He didn't make the serial killer a murderer, the insane crazy, or the evil bad. They did it with free will along with a little thing called Satan. Denying free will is denying the existence of God or even your own existence.
hey dude, your wrong too(imagine that!) because if God created "His" rules about morality then he therefore disenfranchised free will

i base this on the fact that you used hell as an example

do you get what im saying?(there can be no bad without something saying it is bad, in this case god) fuck you too dude

A sin is anything that isn't honoring to God.How about sitting down and watching a game of football? Is that honoring God... or no?

I think you're totally missing the point here. Do you really think that people choose to be gay? Even in societies such as the American one where they're denied rights, and countries in the middle east where they may be locked up or executed? People don't choose to be gay any more than they choose to be straight.
quit being a whiny bitch

God created all things. He/she/it created Heaven, Earth, and Humanty. He/she/it made the Sky blue and the Sun yellow. Furthermore, he/she/it made Gay people Gay. No ifs, ands, or buts here, if people are Gay then God wanted them to be Gay. Or do you truly believe that God can't control something like that? He/she/it can. Now, I pose a question to you: What kind of divine being, what creature worthy of worship, what person with any kind of morality, could create something and punish the creation for the actions of the creator? It would be like imprisoning a child because a parent commited a crime. God is better than that.

So your saying god also wanted to have ebola, murder, rape, floods, volcanos, suicide, incest, parkinsons, cancer, aids, teletubbies, syphilis, weapons of mass destruction, war, faminie, robbery, pestiliecne and the like......

by the way, the #1 best selling fiction book of all time, aka the bible says:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is an abomination."
so i guess god is going to hell according to you...

Denying free will is denying the existence of God or even your own existence.How so? I fail to see any logic in that statement whatsoever (but then again, this is a religious issue, so I should have been expecting that anyhow).

Personally, I think that if you believe in that "God has a plan" idea (and therefore in God), then you don't believe in free will (or that free will means little to nothing in the long run).

So your saying god also wanted to have ebola, murder, rape, floods, volcanos, suicide, incest, parkinsons, cancer, aids, teletubbies, syphilis, weapons of mass destruction, war, faminie, robbery, pestiliecne and the like......

by the way, the #1 best selling fiction book of all time, aka the bible says:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is an abomination."
so i guess god is going to hell according to you...
hye dude, your teletubbies joke was a total bomb

So your saying god also wanted to have ebola, murder, rape, floods, volcanos, suicide, incest, parkinsons, cancer, aids, teletubbies, syphilis, weapons of mass destruction, war, faminie, robbery, pestiliecne and the like......But of course! What kind of God would he be if he wasn't constantly testing our faith by tormenting us with the most horrible plagues devised???

I shudder to think of a world where everyone is happy and healthy and peaceful. Oh wait...

But of course! What kind of God would he be if he wasn't constantly testing our faith by tormenting us with the most horrible plagues devised???

I shudder to think of a world where everyone is happy and healthy and peaceful. Oh wait...
nobody(me) cares about your left-ist bullshit, that's why i voted for badnirk

How about sitting down and watching a game of football? Is that honoring God... or no?

Speaking of which, why is it that members of the winning team always thank God for their win? Do they think God prefered them? Like he didn't like the other team? Did God have money on the game?

Heh... I don't mean to go off-topic, but I just couldn't help it when this was mentioned...

But, to be on-topic (sort of, but opening a bigger can of worms), homosexuality is most definitely not a choice, nor is it something that can be "learned"... You can't "catch" homosexuality...

Sexual preference is an instinctual, genetically-encoded trait... It is by no means something we decide on our own...

How can I assert that? All you've got to do is look at the animal kingdom...

Animals just know to be heterosexual (under normal circumstances)... Even the ones that aren't raised by parents... Even the ones that live entirely alone until the point of mating... Even the ones that are too primitve to even make decisions...

All of these types of creatures have absolutely no way of "learning" that males go with females... They have no way of "choosing" otherwise... Yet, they somehow just know...

How can that be? Well, it only works if sexual preference is a pre-programmed thing... And the only way for that to be is if it is a genetically encoded trait...

Therefore, we must conclude that sexual preference is a product of our genetic make up in some way... In the same way that all other instinctual knowledge is pre-programmed into our brains...

So, homosexuality is nothing more than a mix-up in that coding... It is an instinctual defect, so to speak... The wiring has gone wrong...

And thus, homosexuality is not a choice, any more than any other genetic or instinctual trait is a choice...

Besides, like someone else mentioned, do you actually think someone would choose to be among a minority, let alone a highly persecuted minority? That makes no sense at all...

Please note that I'm not trying to be negative towards homosexuals in saying this... Yes, in essence, this means that something is wrong with them... And in natural terms, something is wrong with them... They are not among the "normal" conditions for a life form... But, at the same time, there's nothing wrong with them in terms of value as a human being...

Speaking of which, why is it that members of the winning team always thank God for their win? Do they think God prefered them? Like he didn't like the other team? Did God have money on the game?

Heh... I don't mean to go off-topic, but I just couldn't help it when this was mentioned...

But, to be on-topic (sort of, but opening a bigger can of worms), homosexuality is most definitely not a choice, nor is it something that can be "learned"... You can't "catch" homosexuality...

Sexual preference is an instinctual, genetically-encoded trait... It is by no means something we decide on our own...

How can I assert that? All you've got to do is look at the animal kingdom...

Animals just know to be heterosexual (under normal circumstances)... Even the ones that aren't raised by parents... Even the ones that live entirely alone until the point of mating... Even the ones that are too primitve to even make decisions...

All of these types of creatures have absolutely no way of "learning" that males go with females... They have no way of "choosing" otherwise... Yet, they somehow just know...

How can that be? Well, it only works if sexual preference is a pre-programmed thing... And the only way for that to be is if it is a genetically encoded trait...

Therefore, we must conclude that sexual preference is a product of our genetic make up in some way... In the same way that all other instinctual knowledge is pre-programmed into our brains...

So, homosexuality is nothing more than a mix-up in that coding... It is an instinctual defect, so to speak... The wiring has gone wrong...

And thus, homosexuality is not a choice, any more than any other genetic or instinctual trait is a choice...

Besides, like someone else mentioned, do you actually think someone would choose to be among a minority, let alone a highly persecuted minority? That makes no sense at all...

Please note that I'm not trying to be negative towards homosexuals in saying this... Yes, in essence, this means that something is wrong with them... And in natural terms, something is wrong with them... They are not among the "normal" conditions for a life form... But, at the same time, there's nothing wrong with them in terms of value as a human being...

no! you are totally wrong, gay animals are always on college campuses actively recruiting

As someone once said (I can't remember who) something along the lines of: "I find it hard to believe in an all-loving, all-powerful god who creates faulty humans and then blames all his mistakes on them."

What is faulty about God giving humans a free will? If He hadn't given you a free will, you wouldn't have the opportunity of being pissed off with Him, would you? :rolleyes:
I assume:God can do anything,god loves all(humans,that is)
He could have given a better version of free will which is resistant to satan,but it apparently did want *some* people to fall in satans traps and go to hell(AFAIK some sins will make you stay in hell forever),which means he's NOT all loving.Its simple to see the contradiction.

And BTW can someone(who believes in free will) define me "free will",I have some trouble understanding the concept(free from what??).

-God gave us a free will and what you do with it is up to you. That is why it is called a free will.
-Why did God create "faulty" humans? God wanted something to love Him. Robots don't count as they are ordered to do something whereas something with free will can "choose" to love. "I find it hard to believe in an all-loving, all-powerful god who creates faulty humans and then blames all his mistakes on them." God didn't make mistakes, we did.
-As with many behavioral characteristics of people, they are not all shaped by our genes or upbringing alone. An orphaned child might pick up excessive anger from their foster parents but will have a sense of compassion from their biological parents. The same applies to homosexuals in many cases. They might be the way they are because of their upbringing, natural tendencies in their genes, or a combination of both. It is too misleading to try to claim that all people grouped in one category for a certain behavior is caused by one thing. Some people *gasp*"choose" to be gay.
-"second of all, yes i do think god wanted adam and eve to disobey "Him" because if he didn't why did "He" tempt them in the first place??" The devil tempted Eve using a serpent and Eve convinced Adam to eat. God didn't tempt anyone.
-"free from what??" It is the ability to make your decisions without God. Free will means individuality, the ability to think on your own so a better version of free will would mean limited free will.
-Finally, it is inevitable that you will sin at least once in your life and technically that means condemnation to hell. Faith the size of a mustard seed saves so although homosexuality is still sinful, if they are true Christians then they will still be saved.

Speaking of which, why is it that members of the winning team always thank God for their win? Do they think God prefered them? Like he didn't like the other team? Did God have money on the game?

Heh... I don't mean to go off-topic, but I just couldn't help it when this was mentioned...It's good to see someone else showing a lighter side in the midst of a pointlessly-heated debate about religious values. :)

I might just clarify (because I'm anal like this... pun not intended) that it's not really accurate to say that choosing one's sexuality is the same as choosing one's race. Yes, it is true that neither is possible, but it's really comparing apples with oranges.

Sexuality is psychological, as most people are saying (correctly). Race, however, is purely genetic, and unless someone has recently discovered a genetic marker that hard-codes someone's sexuality, they aren't comparible. Sexuality can change (it can change but it cannot be changed... if that makes sense), while race can not.

"Free will" simply means the ability to make decisions on your own, thereby controlling your own destiny...

It is a completely hands-off sort of thing... If God gave us Free Will, then He doesn't play any (direct) role in the decisions we make...

He can't help us make decisions, he can't help us from making the "wrong" decisions...

He can try to guide us through teachings, in hopes that we'll make better decisions, but He can't tell us what to decide...

Of course, I'm not a believer in God (I do believe in Free Will, though... as the opposition of "destiny" or "fate", which I think are bunk), but that's how it works for those that do...

-As with many behavioral characteristics of people, they are not all shaped by our genes or upbringing alone. An orphaned child might pick up excessive anger from their foster parents but will have a sense of compassion from their biological parents. The same applies to homosexuals in many cases. They might be the way they are because of their upbringing, natural tendencies in their genes, or a combination of both. It is too misleading to try to claim that all people grouped in one category for a certain behavior is caused by one thing. Some people *gasp*"choose" to be gay.

I disagree... The point I made concerning the "lower" animals shows that upbringing and environmental influences have little to nothing to do with sexual preferece... Many, many creatures have absolutely no "role models" to learn their sexual preference from, and they still just know it... Creatures that are far too simple to even make conscious choices at all still just know it...

Therefore, it simply can't be a learned trait or a conscious decision, but rather, an entirely instinctual matter... And the only way an instinct can be carried on is through genes... Your brain can't be pre-programmed any other way...

Now, I will agree that it may be closer to a predisposition to being homosexual... Just like there's a genetic predisposition to becoming an alcoholic, or to getting heart disease...

But the fact remains that a conscious decision is not involved... And neither is "learning" to be gay...

A person either born gay, or born hetero... If you are born heterosexal, then nothing will change that... If you are born gay, perhaps you've still got a shot at pretending to be heterosexual, but you really are homosexual...

[QUOTE=Arrgh1-"free from what??" It is the ability to make your decisions without God. Free will means individuality, the ability to think on your own so a better version of free will would mean limited free will.
.[/QUOTE]
So you think how we make decisions is independent of the environment(god created),our own body-strenghts,weaknesses-(god created),other people(god created).
But I now understand why god sends men to hell,think about it you believe you're perfect,omnipotent,blah,blah and you create things which have "free will" so that youll prove yourself that even things that are free from yourself can see the greatness in you and worship you by themselves,yet some radicals come up and say "if you dont show yourself,I have no plan to chase you".This should have angered him a lot.I know a philosopher who says every action man makes is caused by his inferiority complex,I guess this also goes for gods.

So the religious folk who claim to know God's mind have spoken up and we have:

1)God made all these rules for a reason, the reason being that God likes these rules
2)God does not "cause" anyone to sin as we have free will

So we have an omnisicinet, omipotent God, who was lonely so he decided to created these things called rules or sins which he KNEW FUCKING AHEAD OF TIME (def: omniscient) that the people with this agency to break them (free will) would indeed break them, thus causing a large number of them to be consigned to everlasting torment.

And this ALL LOVING Being decided it was worth the cost of doing this because
3)He was LONELY??????????

Basically, it's a test... One big, sadistic test...

Not quite the "all benevolent" guy He is made out to be, huh? And my readings through the Bible support this... God isn't a nice guy...

If I may play devil's advocate for a while: Homosexuals may be born gay, however that doesn't mean to say they have to become a 'practicing' homosexual - they have the choice to live a life of celabacy (sp?) and therefore enter heaven, not hell.

I personally don't believe in hell myself - it seems a bit cruel. I may be making this up but the 'Wee free' church (not their real name, northan Scottish church) beleives that God first made hell, then made man, therefore he was effectively setting man up for a fall. Maybe God, like man, likes pulling wings of insects and stomping on ants. :)

Here's a theory:

God made the universe to see what would happen, and doesn't give a flying fuck what we do, just as long as we do something funny (i.e. commit genocide, or make up stupid rules (such as 'don't be gay') and back them up with 'god said so'(Imagine the ammount of beer that left god through his divine nostrils every time someone did that)).



Heyyyyyyyyy, you know what? I just invented a religion, ... Okay, what shall I call it? ... Psychotolanity? ... ... OOOHHHHH, I know, Psychotolism, ... ... naaaah, ... ... Dvinie Pranksterism? ... ... someone help me out here, what would be a good name for my new religion?

If I may play devil's advocate for a while: Homosexuals may be born gay, however that doesn't mean to say they have to become a 'practicing' homosexual - they have the choice to live a life of celabacy (sp?) and therefore enter heaven, not hell.

I personally don't believe in hell myself - it seems a bit cruel. I may be making this up but the 'Wee free' church (not their real name, northan Scottish church) beleives that God first made hell, then made man, therefore he was effectively setting man up for a fall. Maybe God, like man, likes pulling wings of insects and stomping on ants. :)

The "wee free" or Free Presbetarian is a fire and brimstone type church. MY brother in law was brought up by wee frees, he couldn't do anything on a Sunday except pray and go to church, no radio, no telly (no telly at any time! it was the devils tool!)
He thought homosexuals only frequented parks at night and preyed on children (his grandfather told him they molested children).
It took me years to educate him on survivng outside the wee free church (which his Father and mother left after his grandfather died) even now, at 41 years of age, he is fascinated by television.

If I may play devil's advocate for a while: Homosexuals may be born gay, however that doesn't mean to say they have to become a 'practicing' homosexual - they have the choice to live a life of celabacy (sp?) and therefore enter heaven, not hell.

I personally don't believe in hell myself - it seems a bit cruel. I may be making this up but the 'Wee free' church (not their real name, northan Scottish church) beleives that God first made hell, then made man, therefore he was effectively setting man up for a fall. Maybe God, like man, likes pulling wings of insects and stomping on ants. :)

Nope. I was informed earlier in a thread where I was trying to get them to explain why homosexuality deserves to be legislated against but adultery does not, that if a person THINKS about commiting a sin it is the EXACT SAME as if that person had done it. Sounds like a total scam... I mean we have free will so that if we are ever tempted or something we can go "oh no, I prefer the big G" but .... oops.... being tempted was a sin equal to the actual doing? I think the person who started this thread was a little off in the assesment of God's character. I mean, if all this weird shit is true, then God doesn't need to be kicked to hell, he needs to be locked up in a padded room in a maximum security psych ward and kept severely sedated - for his own good.

Here's a theory:

God made the universe to see what would happen, and doesn't give a flying fuck what we do, just as long as we do something funny (i.e. commit genocide, or make up stupid rules (such as 'don't be gay') and back them up with 'god said so'(Imagine the ammount of beer that left god through his divine nostrils every time someone did that)).



Heyyyyyyyyy, you know what? I just invented a religion, ... Okay, what shall I call it? ... Psychotolanity? ... ... OOOHHHHH, I know, Psychotolism, ... ... naaaah, ... ... Dvinie Pranksterism? ... ... someone help me out here, what would be a good name for my new religion?

Discordianism.... oops wait, that's one taken and makes a tad bit more sense than this one..

I'm Jewish, through and through. Born, raised, and practicing. I believe in God whole-heartedly and believe him/her/it to be all knowing/all powerful/etc. But, and this is a pretty big but, if God truly does view Homosexuality as a sin then I consign him to Hell and I don't give it a second thought.

God created all things. He/she/it created Heaven, Earth, and Humanty. He/she/it made the Sky blue and the Sun yellow. Furthermore, he/she/it made Gay people Gay. No ifs, ands, or buts here, if people are Gay then God wanted them to be Gay. Or do you truly believe that God can't control something like that? He/she/it can. Now, I pose a question to you: What kind of divine being, what creature worthy of worship, what person with any kind of morality, could create something and punish the creation for the actions of the creator? It would be like imprisoning a child because a parent commited a crime. God is better than that.

I, personally, think that Homosexuality is just fine. I'm not Gay myself (and I have no plans to be Gay) but I recognize that there's nothing wrong with it. I think that God also sees that there is nothing wrong with it. But, if God truly does believe it to be evil, then I think he deserves to rot in Hell. No being worthy of worship, nothing that deserves to be called 'God', could do such a thing.

I say this right now with no fear of being struck down or punished, because I believe that God is a compassionate and wise being. God knows what is right and what is wrong and I trust him/her/it to make the correct decision.
i would raise the related point that if God were to be so petty and stupid as to condemn humans to everlasting torture for the sin of loving based on something besides baby-making, then that God would not deserve any worship from any of us. rather, we should dedicate ourselves to the overthrow of that malicious, evil entity. any God who thinks love should be about genitals alone is no God that deserves my respect or praise, and any God that would torture me for loving a PERSON rather than their body parts is a God that i would willingly battle to my death and beyond.

Jesus emphasizes that even bad THOUGHTS are sins.
It looks like we had the concept of thoughtcrime *FAR* before Phillip K Dick and Minority Report

i understand ur view about this whole issue. but i believe that God is right. People are gay for 2 reasons: they are born that way, or they chose to be. For those who chose, that is a sin based upon their own decision. As for those being born, it may very well being a punishment. In the bible, the Israelites sinned again during the time of Moses and God punished them by not allowing that genereration to see the promised land. U have to remember that although God is all powerful, he has laws that limits himself from doing somethings. If he did whatever he wanted, she would create a new universe without the fault of Adam and Eve, no violence or hate, and make everybody worship him without having his people fight about it. Also note that everything in the bible should not be taken literally. It never said BEING gay was a sin but rather the ACT of homosexuality is. I know a great deal of homosexual christians who changed because of this statement. thats my opinion. in addition, u have no right to disrespect God that way. u have to remember that we are OBLIGATED to praise him as thanks for life. Yet if God did whatever he wanted, y are people still not prasing, y did he give us free will? because he LOVES US. Also remember that God has forgiven our sins before we even commited them. he doesnt fogive AFter to do something. Praising God is the true test, because he gave us all free will and those who are true chose to praise God. if u wanna talk more personally then telegram at kxtigerlxi.

Although I see your argument as valid, I am just in a rather nit-picky mood right now so I will destroy your argument through your contradiction (It's prolly just a typeo, but *must . . . exploit . . . it!*)

.... God is all powerful, he has laws that limits himself from doing somethings. If he did whatever he wanted, she would create a new universe without the fault of Adam and Eve ....
You 1st say God as 'he' - why all of a sudden do you call God 'she'?

God loves us. If we're gay though, we can't love each other.

Hmmm, yes, makes perfect sense. Thanks God.

How so? I fail to see any logic in that statement whatsoever (but then again, this is a religious issue, so I should have been expecting that anyhow).

Personally, I think that if you believe in that "God has a plan" idea (and therefore in God), then you don't believe in free will (or that free will means little to nothing in the long run).

Apparently he hasn't heard of Calvinism. He's got a lot to learn about his own religion.

Although I see your argument as valid, I am just in a rather nit-picky mood right now so I will destroy your argument through your contradiction (It's prolly just a typeo, but *must . . . exploit . . . it!*)


You 1st say God as 'he' - why all of a sudden do you call God 'she'?

i got a real observant jewish friend who refers to god with gender-neutral pronouns (ze & hir) which i think makes a bit more sense than implying god's a Man with a Divine Penis, if you believe in that sort of thing.

this friend also has a nice interpretation of the "thou shalt not lie with a man as thou liest with a woman: it is an abomniation" bit:

A: when interacting with someone sexually, you should take their gender into account. if someone is male-identified, you oughta respect that and treat them like a boy in bed, same goes if ze's female-identified or genderqueer-identified. so the rule could be paraphrased as "thou shald not lie with a transman as thou liest with a woman: it is an insult to that person's gender identity"

B: Queer folk shouldn't try to mimic straight sexuality. Straight sexuality and queer sexuality are different, and trying to make queer relationships just like straight relationships "except they happen to be gay" is, again, insulting.

that's why i got hella respect for the jews of the progressive variety: they're totally willing to look at the torah, and make interpretations that suit them, and then recognize that what they're doing is imposing interpretations on an imperfect document.

You sure have a demented form of belief IMO. God created all, yes that is true, but God did not make a gay person gay. They made themselves gay by their own free will, which God gave us free will. We either follow his rules to become closer to God, or sin and get put away from the presence of God a.k.a. Hell. He didn't make the serial killer a murderer, the insane crazy, or the evil bad. They did it with free will along with a little thing called Satan. Denying free will is denying the existence of God or even your own existence.

You see, that kind of thinking makes me angry. Im Jewish, born and raised in the Holy land; Israel, yet no so religious, am gay and know both (semi- , and plain)religious and not religious Jews.
Someone saying people CHOOSE to be Gay, plainly will never understand the sufferings of growing up as a gay guy, especially if you're from a religious family. People CHOOSE to be gay? like you CHOSE being straight, or you were (and are) attracted to women since ever?
Do you know how many people commit suicide on the cause of being gay? not to mention the high rated of religious-gays-suicide. Can you imagine growing up, yearning for something you're taught you MUSTN'T do, and still, have the urge to? you can quiet it down, but never end it, so cut the CR*P about 'choosing'. There are things you can't control (like diseases, mental as you mentioned), yet religious people say 'it's all from god', so if God doesn't make you insane, you do? better, you CHOOSE being insane (without treatment)? No.
To say everything comes from choice and you can make your life in anyway different in 180º is rather easy, talk is cheap. You can repress certain aspects within yourself, but change? Please.

Exscuse me! How dare you imply that people choose if they are gay. Most gay people are BORN gay, they can't choose it. It is the same thing about Both sexes. If you are a guy, and you look at a girl you like, you feel aroused, although when you first experiance this you are not compleatly sure what it means. If you are a gay man, and you see a guy you like, you can't HELP it, no more you can help liking girls. There is no way to change it. There is nothing wrong with gay people, I happen to know 4 myself. What is sinful about being born with something you can't control. That is like sending someone to death for liking women, it is stupid. If Gays had been normal, and you or me not, what would your argument be?

1) You cannot prove that people are born gay
2) It has not been proved that people are/are not born gay
3) The sin is not being a homosexual (Attracted to members of the same sex) the sin is the act of homosexual sex, which can be restrained from

So we have an omnisicinet, omipotent God, who was lonely so he decided to created these things called rules or sins which he KNEW FUCKING AHEAD OF TIME (def: omniscient) that the people with this agency to break them (free will) would indeed break them, thus causing a large number of them to be consigned to everlasting torment.


http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part3.html

See here

Kxtigerlxi:
As for those being born, it may very well being a punishment.Hang on a minute here - you're a Christian AND a Buddhist? :confused:

I think something has to be cleared up here, because EVERYONE has the wrong idea about what causes homosexuality.

1. Homosexuality is not a choice. Ask any gay person. You can choose to pretend to be gay if you wish, but you'd be no more gay than Ali G is black. The person who made the point about animals made it well, but missed one crucial point - homosexuality is common practise in the animal world, and has in fact been observed in almost every species of mammal that has been studied in depth. In fact, we have a pair of gay guinea pigs.

2. Homosexuality is not genetic. This is just common sense. Think about it for a second - Homosexuals don't breed... :rolleyes:

Sexuality is now known to be determined by the balance of hormonces in the womb, altering our brains. As such, it is hardwired into our brain, and so is not a choice, but it is also not passed on in our genes.

Just wanted to clear that up.

The sin is not being a homosexual (Attracted to members of the same sex) the sin is the act of homosexual sex, which can be restrained from.Okay, a few people have said this now, and I feel I have to say something here: Do you honestly think that saying people must live a life of deprivation and abstinence or they go to Hell and burn for all eternity is any better than just sending them there in the first place? Either way, God's an arsehole.

Okay, a few people have said this now, and I feel I have to say something here: Do you honestly think that saying people must live a life of deprivation and abstinence or they go to Hell and burn for all eternity is any better than just sending them there in the first place? Either way, God's an arsehole.


Our pathetic brains cannot comprehend anything that He does.

Okay, a few people have said this now, and I feel I have to say something here: Do you honestly think that saying people must live a life of deprivation and abstinence or they go to Hell and burn for all eternity is any better than just sending them there in the first place? Either way, God's an arsehole.

I have heard this before. I have a case study (although unhelpfully I cant remember the date) Steven (or second name) was 16 when he lost the use of his legs perminantly. During his time in hospital before he left he became a Christian. When a local reporter interviewed him about his faith he said "Aren't you a little angry at God for depriving you of these great years of your life" at which point Steven shrugged and says "he has eternity to make it up to me"

I have never in my life heard that it is a sin to be gay, I have only heard about it being a sin to be involved or in a relationship with another gay person. And I don't think that he hates people who are gay either. God doesn't hate anyone, no matter what they do (in my opinion).

Hang on a minute here - you're a Christian AND a Buddhist? :confused:

I think something has to be cleared up here, because EVERYONE has the wrong idea about what causes homosexuality.

1. Homosexuality is not a choice. Ask any gay person. You can choose to pretend to be gay if you wish, but you'd be no more gay than Ali G is black. The person who made the point about animals made it well, but missed one crucial point - homosexuality is common practise in the animal world, and has in fact been observed in almost every species of mammal that has been studied in depth. In fact, we have a pair of gay guinea pigs.

2. Homosexuality is not genetic. This is just common sense. Think about it for a second - Homosexuals don't breed... :rolleyes:


So its not a choice and its not genetic. So what is it? Enviromental factors mainly it would seem, which can be controled.

So its not a choice and its not genetic. So what is it? Enviromental factors mainly it would seem, which can be controled.

You clearly weren't paying attention. I'll repeat myself, and this time, I'll put it in bold, for the hard of understanding:

Sexuality is now known to be determined by the balance of hormonces in the womb, altering our brains. As such, it is hardwired into our brain, and so is not a choice, but it is also not passed on in our genes.

See now? While it is not passed on by our parents, it is still determined before birth, and cannot be altered.

You clearly weren't paying attention. I'll repeat myself, and this time, I'll put it in bold, for the hard of understanding:

Sexuality is now known to be determined by the balance of hormonces in the womb, altering our brains. As such, it is hardwired into our brain, and so is not a choice, but it is also not passed on in our genes.

See now? While it is not passed on by our parents, it is still determined before birth, and cannot be altered.

And as I have said, it is not a sin to BE a homosexual, just to have homosexual sex. And for the record this has not been proven since if it was the case, then twins would both be homosexual but that is not so in more than 55% of cases. If you are both exposed to the same hormones then why are you both not homosexual?

And as I have said, it is not a sin to BE a homosexual, just to have homosexual sex.How would you feel if you were told that you could never have sex or you would go to Hell?

And for the record this has not been proven since if it was the case, then twins would both be homosexual but that is not so in more than 55% of cases.Sorry, could you quote a source here? I find it curious that the homosexuality rate among twins would be over five times that among single births.

If homosexuality is determined by an imbalance of hormones, then it becomes a mental disorder and is therefore treatable, like schizophrenia. If the hormones are at fault, plant and animal hormones are there to create the correct balance. Merely accepting what's wrong with yourself without trying to find a cure is like living with a curable disease.

How would you feel if you were told that you could never have sex or you would go to Hell?


You dont "Go to hell" if you sin. You go to hell if you sin and are unrepentent toward God.


Sorry, could you quote a source here? I find it curious that the homosexuality rate among twins would be over five times that among single births.

http://dunamai.com/articles/Christian/is_homosexuality_genetic.htm

Disganistan:
If homosexuality is determined by an imbalance of hormones, then it becomes a mental disorder and is therefore treatable, like schizophrenia. If the hormones are at fault, plant and animal hormones are there to create the correct balance. Merely accepting what's wrong with yourself without trying to find a cure is like living with a curable disease.You misunderstand me - it's not directly caused by a hormonal imbalance, but the hormones in the womb cause a permanent alteration of the brain. Once you have left the womb, the problem is no longer hormonal, and therefore cannot be treated as such.

Neo Cannen:
You dont "Go to hell" if you sin. You go to hell if you sin and are unrepentent toward God.Hair splitting at its finest. "If you have sex, you must apologise to God and promise not to do it again" is still not a nice thing to do.

Does it not strike you as a little petulant of God to give people free will and then say "But if you don't do what I want you to do you'll be punished". What kind of free will is that? :\

(Sorry, but I've always been a little sceptical of articles with a clear agenda. However, I'll do my best to read it without scepticism.)

I assume:God can do anything,god loves all(humans,that is)
He could have given a better version of free will which is resistant to satan,but it apparently did want *some* people to fall in satans traps and go to hell(AFAIK some sins will make you stay in hell forever),which means he's NOT all loving.Its simple to see the contradiction.

If God gave us a "free will", "resistant to satan" (assuming you believe in Satan), then it still wouldn't be a free will, would it? It is either our will to resist Satan, or to go along with him. It's really up to you. Problem is, it seems easier to go along with Satan than to resist.

Also, you might want to know that God sees all sin equally. No sin is worse or better than another, because they all have the same outcome - death and separation from God. I'm not sure what "AFAIK" means, but there is only one thing that will make you stay in hell forever, and that is not accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour. Jesus is like your lawyer on Judgment Day, and He defends you and has already taken the punishment for YOUR sins - that is too cool. And people curse Him and His name? Geez, talk about ungrateful! :confused: So, God actually IS all-loving, because, although we've screwed ourselves over, He has made a way for us to get out of the mess we're in. I know which decion I'd take - accept Jesus, obviously! ;)

And BTW can someone(who believes in free will) define me "free will",I have some trouble understanding the concept(free from what??).

Free will is being free to make decisions on your own. Compare it to robots - most robots are programmed to perform specific tasks, and contrary to science fiction, they cannot do things they were not programmed to do. They have no emotions, and will only do what they are told to do. Humans, on the other hand (within the bounds of physical laws), can do anything they choose. They can love, hate, kill, steal, work, play, over-eat, under-eat, be honest, be dishonest... the list goes on.

As for free will being free from anything - I think you have the wrong concept of the word in this context. In this context, I think free means, Grant relief or an exemption from a rule or requirement to. Something to that effect. Or, you could look at it that free will is freedom from being bound by certain decisions, or free from limitations. Unlike robots that are bound by the restrictions of their software.

Who said homosexuality is a sin? Man, so who cares? God has "no formalities", "no labels". We as people want to limit ourselves with formalities and limit others by our labels (and formalities). Just because some country bumpkin comes along and says I wrote this little black book with a bunch of my friends does not mean anyone else needs to listen to their book. Read or don't read the bible but for our sake don't believe everything you read. You can find falsehoods and truths in probably any book, movie or song out there.

Considering that the definition of hell is "separation from God," I find the original statement very funny. Are we going to make God schizophrenic now?

nobody(me) cares about your left-ist bullshit, that's why i voted for badnirk

http://www.slightlywarped.com/forumpictures/trolls/feed_troll.jpg

I've read some of your posts, and seriously dude, i doubt anyone cares what you have to say, because you are obviously
1)An idiot
2)getting off topic
3)offensive

Now just leave these people in peace. It's people like you that give the internet a bad name.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=377256

An explanation of my opening post

One of the things we have to ask ourselves is what really is a sin. It is easy to say that it is just doing something that goes against Gods will or displeases God, but that seems to broad. Sin or evil, is something that harms another person or an act that is selfish. Such acts injure another person with out their consent. So ask yourself how is homesxuality or specificaly, homosexual acts harmiong others? If it is forced than of course that is a sin. But, in general homosexual acts occur between consenting adults. How are they harmed Of course there is the issue of diseases, but those are passed through heterosexual acts as well.

So let us then consider the matter of Leviticus. When the law prohibiting sodomy was writen was this a cultural occurance? Was it done as a way of prohibiting male prostitution? Was it suposed to be a way to show the difference between the Israelites and those around them?
Also consider the sexual laws before it. Most, if not all, are acts in which a person is taken advantage of. If we go by my above statement then we realize that taking advantage of another person is a sin. The prohibitition of sodomy is the only prohibition that does not have power inequality as a context(such as the prohibitions against incest).


Lastly there is the issue of reproduction. It is obvious that homesxuality does not produce offspring. Is this really a problem? No. There have been segments of the population that do not produce children due to being barren. They are not considered siners even though they can only have sex for pleasure. Their barreness is not considered a reason not to bar them from marriage. Neither is old age. If my 85 year old grandmother decided to remarry would the church prevent her from doing so simply because she and her husband could not have children? No. Would anyone labe her a sinner for having non-reproductive sex with her husband? No.
Then why is the ability to have children used against homosexuals?


These are my reasons that I find homsexuality in and of its self not a sin.

"Not all Christians reject homosexuality as incompatible with the Christian faith. It's true that some Christians maintain the stance that homosexuality is abominable and can quote several (meaning eleven) out-of-context Biblical citations to back up their claim. But using such prooftexts oversimplifies the issue, a favorite tactic employed in the inflammatory rhetoric of the Christian right. The Biblical texts quoted by many as the unquestionable and inerrant final word on the issue of homosexuality have many different and legitimate interpretations.

As Biblically-centered Protestants, we reject the homophobic position so vehemently proclaimed by some Christians. We believe that homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice nor a deviant urge reversible through earnest prayer and counseling. It is simply the way God has created some people. We advocate the welcoming of all -- regardless of their orientation -- because that is the message of the Gospel. Jesus brought a message of love and redemption from God to all who would accept it. "

"...Jesus brought a message of love and redemption from God to all who would accept it. "

Redemption for WHAT?

They made themselves gay by their own free will, which God gave us free will.

You're acting like a fu¢king idiot. It wasn't my idea to be a trans, but here I am wearing panties, having shaved my legs yesterday when at no time did I decide I wanted to be this way, I simply found out that I am. Now, if I were given a choice today, I'd say screw you I'm gonna stay this way anyway, and may be I'd go to Hell for that; but I wasn't given that choice so get the stick out of your @$$ and shutup.

Not saying God is gay, not saying that at all. But if Jesus Christ was God and God created all, then Jesus Christ created the homosexual.

There might be a little fag in us all.

I remember when I liked Corporate Avenger.

Redemption for WHAT?

In very simple terms - redemption from the old testatment notion of "original sin." The change of message from the OT to the NT was/is that:-
- the way to heaven is belief in Jesus (not a whole heap of rules)
- all sins have been washed away, humans no longer live in the 'darkness' of Eden
- God is loving, not murderous and vengeful

In very simple terms - redemption from the old testatment notion of "original sin." The change of message from the OT to the NT was/is that:-
- the way to heaven is belief in Jesus (not a whole heap of rules)
- all sins have been washed away, humans no longer live in the 'darkness' of Eden
- God is loving, not murderous and vengeful

I agree with your first and 3rd points, however, humans DO still live in the 'darkness' of Eden, because we are all born as sinners. That is our inheritance from Adam & Eve.

God IS loving, not murderous and vengeful, but He is also a God of justice, and must still punish sin that has not been dealt with. What good parent would withhold a punishment from his/her child for doing the wrong thing? To withhod the punishment is in effect, saying that doing the wrong thing is ok, and that you don't really care about it.

Our sins are washed away, ONLY when we ask Jesus for forgiveness, and if we continue to live in that sinful manner after we have asked for forgiveness, without an attempt to change, then we throw contempt on the forgiveness we have received.

Not saying God is gay, not saying that at all. But if Jesus Christ was God and God created all, then Jesus Christ created the homosexual.

There might be a little fag in us all.

I wouldn't mind a little fag in me.

im not really reply to anythign someone has said i just want to add this.

homosexuality is not a decision, if you are gay you were born that way, even if you dont figure it out till ur 30 u were still born that way. a gay person cant help being gay, its like lesch-nyhan syndrom, u cant help bitting youself, you were just born that way.

hey i'd just like you all to know that i'm still much much smarter then you will ever be

Phuckneckville, you are warned for flaming in these posts:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7573718&postcount=15
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7573729&postcount=16
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7573739&postcount=18
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7573788&postcount=23
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7573798&postcount=25

Play nice.

hey i'd just like you all to know that i'm still much much smarter then you will ever be

First of all, sweet life, looks like you live a good one there, buddy.

anyway, onto my real post.

God won't damn anyone to Hell just because they're gay. We do have to realize that the bible/Torah was written well over a thousand years ago. In that time, homosexuality was serious. If someone was gay, it meant their bloodline ended with them, assuming they had no brothers. That was something very serious. That's why people in that time was so against it, and why the authors of the Torah/bible were so firm on the issue.

Nowadays, being gay isn't the same as it was. But, everyone is still reads the same writings as thousands of years ago, which condemn gays.

First of all, sweet life, looks like you live a good one there, buddy.

anyway, onto my real post.

God won't damn anyone to Hell just because they're gay. We do have to realize that the bible/Torah was written well over a thousand years ago. In that time, homosexuality was serious. If someone was gay, it meant their bloodline ended with them, assuming they had no brothers. That was something very serious. That's why people in that time was so against it, and why the authors of the Torah/bible were so firm on the issue.

Nowadays, being gay isn't the same as it was. But, everyone is still reads the same writings as thousands of years ago, which condemn gays.

I keep hearing that reason as to why the infamous lines in leviticus. However, what would be the punishment for someone unfortunate enough to be gay in that time? Exile? Torture? Death?

The bloodline would end with them anyway, if that happened. So.. kind of an own goal?

I keep hearing that reason as to why the infamous lines in leviticus. However, what would be the punishment for someone unfortunate enough to be gay in that time? Exile? Torture? Death?

The bloodline would end with them anyway, if that happened. So.. kind of an own goal?

I think that they were trying to encourage homosexuals to pretend to be heterosexual. It has happened in many cultures, including our own, and people can put up with that kind of psychological force for quite a while. Most of the men who force themselves into heterosexual marriage despite being gay don't come out about it until their 30's or 40's - well after most people in ancient Israel would have been dead, and well after the bloodline would have been continued.

here is how it works, if we use the logic that if he didn't want it to be then we wouldn't have it then what is the point of us being here, the whole reason for us to be here is to be tested to see if we are worthy to go back and live with him again, and in order to show that we are worthy we are being tested, which means being subject to tests, being sin, and being a homosexual is a sin, what purpose does it serve? you can't create another human being, all it does is spread evil diseases, i am genralizing of course not all gays go out and have sex all the time with who ever but nevertheless it is prevelent, that is another reason why havin sex out of wed lock is considered by some is a sin also, you are doin it simply for the pleasure of it not for the reason in which it is intended to be, and that to spreads disease, so if it is alright to be gay and it is alright to have sex with who ever, then why is their such terrible consquences for those actions? how bout you put the pieces together

Perspective from a gay man here.

The whole thing of the Judeo-Christian resoning that homosexuality is a sin is based largely on the fact that the whole story of Sodom and the letter to the Romans was taken so far out of context, it's not funny.
Sure, you can talk about the law that Moses laid down, but if you are a Christian, you are following the teachings of the Christ, not Moses. So much for Leviticus.
Sodom was allegedly destroyed NOT due to homosexuality, but due to the extreme arrogance, pride, inhospitality, etc. of the people that lived there. (That is to say, they were not nice people).
The letter to the Romans cautioned against the visitation to temple prostitues, many were male, and the thing was not even about consensual gay sex, it was about doing it to honour a pagan god/goddess.
SO much for Biblical reasons. On to the other discussions.

I can say this for the many other things that are said to lead to homosexuality, and the whole 'is it a chioce' nonsense.
Did I lack strong male role models? Nope, my Dad was there for me, and was the 'good male role model'. For that, Mom and Dad are still married after 48 years.
Was my Mom overbearing or too attentive of me? Nah, not really. She was a loving Mom, and wasn't over-protective or anything.
Abused as a child? Nope.
Lesse...did I ever have any sexual attration to females? Nope.
Did I ever TRY to have a girlfreind or have sex with a female? Yeah, tried...but I just couldn't get past the whole "this is NOT me" thing. LIke if a straight guy tried to date another guy, yanno?
SO, I knew that I was attracted to other men. No-one told me about it, no-one taught me about it. Hell, it wasn't even discussed around my neck of the woods.

So, was there any choice involved? Oh yeah! I finally chose to stop lying to myself and others about my being gay. It was a bit scary, but it was the best thing for everyone, and I felt so much better about myself, instead of having to lie and look in the mirror every day know what I was and not telling anyone.

I don't parade it, I'm not an effite flouncing mary or anything, but I am a gay man. I've been with the most amazingly wonderful man for the last 10 years, and looking forward to the next 10 years and beyond.

Oh, and I'm not going into my sex life because it really none of anyone's business, ok?

So, umm....go ahead and comment on my rant.

Thanks!

Hang on a minute here - you're a Christian AND a Buddhist? :confused:

I think something has to be cleared up here, because EVERYONE has the wrong idea about what causes homosexuality.

1. Homosexuality is not a choice. Ask any gay person. You can choose to pretend to be gay if you wish, but you'd be no more gay than Ali G is black. The person who made the point about animals made it well, but missed one crucial point - homosexuality is common practise in the animal world, and has in fact been observed in almost every species of mammal that has been studied in depth. In fact, we have a pair of gay guinea pigs.

2. Homosexuality is not genetic. This is just common sense. Think about it for a second - Homosexuals don't breed... :rolleyes:

Sexuality is now known to be determined by the balance of hormonces in the womb, altering our brains. As such, it is hardwired into our brain, and so is not a choice, but it is also not passed on in our genes.

Just wanted to clear that up.
you better read your last comment and #2 cuz you just said it wasn't genetic then you said it was

I love that people use the whole "There's no homosexuality in the animal world" argument.

I've watched a male dog try to mate with another dog at a dog park not 1 month ago. It was promptly ended by their owners, but I couldn't help but think about the ignorance of those who use that argument. It's really quite funny!

Oh, also, if heterosexuality is not a choice, homosexuality isn't either. If you can't change the fact that you're attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals can't help that they're attrated to the same sex.

Call it what you want, but it's here to stay, and sinning or not, I'm happy with the way I am. There's no helping what my sexual orientation is. It may be a sin, but it would be just as sinful for me to pretend I'm something I'm not. That would be hypocracy. Especially since *controversial statement* I'm religious and I believe God made me the way I am for a reason. Who am I to question Him?

Rather than spend an hour or two reading through the several pages posted here - I sort of skimmed through it. If this has already been mentioned then please forgive me.

To the Jew who started the thread. Most Jews believe in and follow the Pentateuch even more closely than Christians. I myself am a Christian.

We know that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its wickedness - particularly homosexuality. This would tend to make me think that God (of the Bible) was against homosexuality.

If that wasn’t clear enough for you then another example might be necessary:
Leviticus 18:22 (KJV) says:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."

That’s pretty straightforward. Still not convinced? Another perhaps:
Leviticus 20:13 (KJV) says:
"If a man lieth with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

That right there should be enough to convince any Jew what God's stance on the issue is. Now as for Christians, some whine and cry that nothing in the Old Testament is of any consequence - yet still hold the 10 commandments to be true. I fail to see this reasoning - but whatever. So because of that I’m sure some Christian is thinking right now – “but that was in the Old Testament - it’s *done away with*." I don’t believe it is done away with - but nonetheless we still have some New Testament scripture to back up Gods view on homosexuality.

Lovely enough this scripture also damns a lot of other very immoral acts... this may come as a shock to some:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)
9) "...neither fornicators [having sex without being married], nor idolaters [worshiping false gods], nor adulterers, nor effeminate [the Greek word here is: Malakos which means: 1) a male prostitute or 2) a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [this last phrase is actually just one Greek word which is: Arsenokoites. Arsenokoites means 1) one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite, a homosexual],
10) ... shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Very black and white. While the KJV is kind of confusing with words such as effeminate or a phrase like "abusers of themselves with mankind" - the original Greek makes it much easier to understand. Infact the NIV often translates these words as “homosexual perversions.”

From these verses alone - I can’t see how any Jew or Christian who believes in the Bible could possibly believe that homosexuality is not wrong.

If you believe homosexuality is ok then you obviously do not believe in the Bible.

From what I read there were some interesting arguments for homosexuality. Of course I think ultimately their arguments are groundless.

I likely won’t have time to look at this thread again. Should anyone care to discuss homosexuality or any other biblical topic, feel free to e-mail me at palidorsk@hotmail.com - I believe I have a solid understanding of the Bible and I served as a minister for a few years.

-Narsiel

2. Homosexuality is not genetic. This is just common sense. Think about it for a second - Homosexuals don't breed... :rolleyes:

Sexuality is now known to be determined by the balance of hormones in the womb, altering our brains. As such, it is hardwired into our brain, and so is not a choice, but it is also not passed on in our genes.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Ahh, good point...

I wasn't thinking along the lines of generic hereditary genetic traits, like eye color or whatnot... But more along the lines of genetic defects/mutations... After all, these sorts of genetic screw-ups occur all the time among the breeding population... And in most cases, the afflicted offspring won't be having children (most genetic defects end in death, and the ones where the child survives usually result in a person who isn't likely to have children), so how do these defects get passed on (or even occur in the first place)?

Of course, if evidence points to hormonal balances in the womb, then this hypothesis could be wrong (and probably is)...

But, anyways, regardless of how it is programmed into our brains, the simple fact remains that it is a pre-programmed trait, and not a choice...

Rather than spend an hour or two reading through the several pages posted here - I sort of skimmed through it. If this has already been mentioned then please forgive me.

To the Jew who started the thread. Most Jews believe in and follow the Pentateuch even more closely than Christians. I myself am a Christian.

We know that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its wickedness - particularly homosexuality. This would tend to make me think that God (of the Bible) was against homosexuality.

If that wasn’t clear enough for you then another example might be necessary:
Leviticus 18:22 (KJV) says:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."

actully.the correct translation is,it is not productive.

and useing levitus doesnt fly when you break most the rules in it every day anyways.

Then God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey Him? God wants people to murder and rape each other? He wants people to eat people and screw their cats? Just because something is possibly, or appetizing to you, doesn't mean God wants it or that it is right, even in the absence of a divine power.

If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then God created what God wanted created, and knew beforehand how things would turn out.

Who are you to judge what God wants or did?
Who are you to tell others what God wants or did?

Rather than spend an hour or two reading through the several pages posted here - I sort of skimmed through it. If this has already been mentioned then please forgive me.
(snip)


It is our hope in your next life, you learn clearly the error of your ways without too much suffering.

1) You cannot prove that people are born gay
2) It has not been proved that people are/are not born gay
3) The sin is not being a homosexual (Attracted to members of the same sex) the sin is the act of homosexual sex, which can be restrained from

You cannot prove that God excists, nor has it been proven, yt you insist He does and that people follow 'His' guidelines.
Sounds like a double standard to me.

actully.the correct translation is,it is not productive.

What are you refering to? My only guess is: "It is an abomination." What translation are you using? More importantly what hebrew text are you refering to? In the Masoretic text the hebrew word for abomination is Tow`ebah which means exactly that: an abomination.

Know what you are talking about next time before flamming me. Gezz...


and useing levitus doesnt fly when you break most the rules in it every day anyways.

Obviously you didnt read my post very well. Try again:


That right there should be enough to convince any Jew what God's stance on the issue is. Now as for Christians... we still have some New Testament scripture to back up Gods view on homosexuality.


In case you still failed to understand. The Leviticus scriptures was mostly quoted for our Jewish friend Klonor who started this thread or any other Jew. Also who is to say that not all OT scripture does not apply to what Christians believe? I think you would find that most Christians still believe in certain commandmants from the OT (which specific ones though - are to be debated).

Regardless, the NT scriptures I provided are for those who wont believe that the Leviticus scriptures are valid.

Rather than spend an hour or two reading through the several pages posted here - I sort of skimmed through it. If this has already been mentioned then please forgive me.

To the Jew who started the thread. Most Jews believe in and follow the Pentateuch even more closely than Christians. I myself am a Christian.

We know that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for its wickedness - particularly homosexuality. This would tend to make me think that God (of the Bible) was against homosexuality.

If that wasn’t clear enough for you then another example might be necessary:
Leviticus 18:22 (KJV) says:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."

That’s pretty straightforward. Still not convinced? Another perhaps:
Leviticus 20:13 (KJV) says:
"If a man lieth with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

That right there should be enough to convince any Jew what God's stance on the issue is. Now as for Christians, some whine and cry that nothing in the Old Testament is of any consequence - yet still hold the 10 commandments to be true. I fail to see this reasoning - but whatever. So because of that I’m sure some Christian is thinking right now – “but that was in the Old Testament - it’s *done away with*." I don’t believe it is done away with - but nonetheless we still have some New Testament scripture to back up Gods view on homosexuality.

Lovely enough this scripture also damns a lot of other very immoral acts... this may come as a shock to some:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)
9) "...neither fornicators [having sex without being married], nor idolaters [worshiping false gods], nor adulterers, nor effeminate [the Greek word here is: Malakos which means: 1) a male prostitute or 2) a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [this last phrase is actually just one Greek word which is: Arsenokoites. Arsenokoites means 1) one who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite, a homosexual],
10) ... shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Very black and white. While the KJV is kind of confusing with words such as effeminate or a phrase like "abusers of themselves with mankind" - the original Greek makes it much easier to understand. Infact the NIV often translates these words as “homosexual perversions.”

From these verses alone - I can’t see how any Jew or Christian who believes in the Bible could possibly believe that homosexuality is not wrong.

If you believe homosexuality is ok then you obviously do not believe in the Bible.

From what I read there were some interesting arguments for homosexuality. Of course I think ultimately their arguments are groundless.

I likely won’t have time to look at this thread again. Should anyone care to discuss homosexuality or any other biblical topic, feel free to e-mail me at palidorsk@hotmail.com - I believe I have a solid understanding of the Bible and I served as a minister for a few years.

-Narsiel

I would especially like to take a look at the phrase:

If you believe homosexuality is ok then you obviously do not believe in the Bible.

Now, I'm a Catholic, needless to say I believe in the teachings of God and his son, Jesus Christ. Now, if you are talking about believing in the bible, I hope that you don't mean worship. Because we Catholics do not worship the bible, and it was my understanding that no Christian sect did.

Also, being a Catholic, I was taught that the bible is not to be interpretted literally. And for those of you who have studied the Old Testament, we know that we definitely need to take into account the time in which it was written.

So, let's take a look at that. This would be viewing the writings in a diachronic interpretation. Like I said, we (Catholics) do not interpret the bible literally. You know, like Jonah didn't really live in the whale for 3 days, it was supposed to symbolize the death and resurrection of Christ (after 3 days). So, when we look at Leviticus especially, we must realize that this was written during a time where survival was difficult. Nowadays, almost anyone can live to a ripe old age, with very little effort.

Plus, we must also realize that these things were written down much later than when they actually happened. For a very long time much of the Old Testament (and New) was passed down through oral tradition (word of mouth). So, who knows if anything in Leviticus was actually said by God. It was really just so the people had the specifics on what and what not to do. Homosexuality was not to be done, because it interfered with reproduction. It's as simple as that.

I might not be a completely ideal Catholic, but I believe that, to some extent, God will judge us at the end of time based largely on our faith in Him, not necessarily our sins. Of course, if you've murdered like 50 people I doubt God would look kindly on you, but I think that since homosexuality isn't something chosen, God won't be too harsh on people with that orientation.

I do think that some gays will go to hell, because I think it is what you make of what you are given. If you turn your back on God as a result of being gay, then I think you will go to hell. But I do think that a gay can live out his life and go to Heaven when he dies. The God I believe in would not punish a person just for being gay, they'd have to do something that would offend him in another way to face Hell. I'm straight and I like it. I could never be gay for a second, because in my mind I think it's disgusting. I imagine there is a similar thought process that goes on in the mind of a gay, so why would God punish a person for something they could not change if they wanted to?

1) You cannot prove that people are born gay
2) It has not been proved that people are/are not born gay
3) The sin is not being a homosexual (Attracted to members of the same sex) the sin is the act of homosexual sex, which can be restrained from

Ooh, ooh! Look at #3!! That's what I was trying to say!!! It's the act, that's what determines whether you go to Hell or Heaven. You choosing to live immorally. There we go.