NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently the hot new children's toys in Iraq are extremely realistic toy guns. AKs and submachine guns. They are so widespread that a US soldier interviewed on NPR this morning said he suspects the insurgents are handing them out to trick US troops into shooting kids. That'll look great on Al Jazeera. When troops went around with flyers to get parents and local leaders to take the dangerous toys out of their kids hands, nobody seemed to see a problem with the fake guns. There was nothing but denial. One local Imam even said "Our religion doesn't permit us to have weapons".

So slanted, it can't be anything but American propaganda.

Insurgents giving kids realistic toy guns so they get shot and create bad media coverage?

LOL, half the insurgents have lost kids or brothers to the many wars Iraq has had. Not even remotely plausible.

A bit like saying that the Americans deliberately car bomb Iraqi civilians to make the insurgents look bad.

So slanted, it can't be anything but American propaganda.

Insurgents giving kids realistic toy guns so they get shot and create bad media coverage?

LOL, half the insurgents have lost kids or brothers to the many wars Iraq has had. Not even remotely plausible.

A bit like saying that the Americans deliberately car bomb Iraqi civilians to make the insurgents look bad.
Well, where do you think the toy guns are coming from?

Well, where do you think the toy guns are coming from?

Toys R Us?

Well, where do you think the toy guns are coming from?
Globalisation. Many consumer items to be found in the middle east are manufactured in countries such as Turkey and Iran, or shipped to distributors there from Western-owed concerns in China.

Like, where do you think the Iraqi provisional government big cheeses get their SUVs? It's not like Iraq has a Toyota plant.

I got a gun that actually fires real elastic bands from a tourist shop in my town today.

I'm not arguing about whether the parents bought them or the insurgents are handing them out in this post. Still, these parents must be complete idiots to allow their children to play with realistic toy guns IN A FUCKING WARZONE!!!
If they had any brains in their heads at all they would heed the advice in the flyers and take their kid's toy guns away.

LOL, their parents might be dead?

Besides, at least half of Iraq's population are kids, quite a handful for the parents to look after, in a war zone.

I guess we can forgive US troops if a few Iraqi kids end up dead then. I mean if their parents and community leaders can't be responsible enough to protect their kids, why hold the troops responsible?

Erm, well, if the soldiers of an occupying power get a bit trigger happy and shoot a few war orphans, then yeah, I'm inclined to place the blame on the soldiers.

EDIT: Besides, the laws of war are pretty clear on the matter of occupying forces bearing sole responsibility for law and order.

Does our toys look extremely similar to the real thing?

It's banned in my country though. Even BB guns have to look like those potato guns or alien lasers before their allowed to be imported.

I'm not arguing about whether the parents bought them or the insurgents are handing them out in this post. Still, these parents must be complete idiots to allow their children to play with realistic toy guns IN A FUCKING WARZONE!!!
If they had any brains in their heads at all they would heed the advice in the flyers and take their kid's toy guns away.

If indeed they are giving such toys to their children. How do we know this to be true? On the say-so of one US troop?

Sounds to me like someone in the know is hoping to drop a little untruth into the mix to cover the asses of hairtrigger GIs shooting at anything that moves.

Oops! I thought that preschooler was Osama Bin Laden, sarge, honest!

Don't worry, we'll just blame their parents. Who wants a brewski?

I guess we can forgive US troops if a few Iraqi kids end up dead then. I mean if their parents and community leaders can't be responsible enough to protect their kids, why hold the troops responsible?

You could say the same about children dieing in Britain or America. "It's their fault they were on the train track anyway, it's not our responsibility to put up fences".
Or something along those lines.

Carrying (well, showing actually) real-looking toy weapons in public is illegal in most parts of the civilized world. No idea whether it is or has been in Iraq. You can get a lot of quite real-looking toys in several places in the world. I have seen actual-sized plastic AK-toys sold in Finland that did not even have the ubiquitous red barrel cap.

As for "trigger happy" soldiers -- it's all in the context:
A marine rifle squad is taking fire and is pinned down in the alleys of Falluja. A kid wielding a real-looking plastic AK runs accross the street 20 meters away in the direction of the incoming fire. I fully expect the soldiers to shoot him dead -- I don't particularly blame the kid, but I don't blame the soldier either.
And I could think of several cases both ways, where you could place the blame on either. Regardless, it's an incomprehensibly moronic idea to carry a real-looking toy gun in an area where firefights are common.

Of course, we don't have any proof that they're being carried around in combat areas. I mean, even if they are I doubt that the kids are running around, pointing them at American soldiers and shouting Bang, Bang.

sounds a lot like propaganda to me.
this is setting it up for when the red cross come up and say
'but you killed loads of kids'

sounds a lot like propaganda to me.
this is setting it up for when the red cross come up and say
'but you killed loads of kids'

Too true. It reeks of set-up for 'plausible deniability' from the top brass down.

Of course, we don't have any proof that they're being carried around in combat areas. I mean, even if they are I doubt that the kids are running around, pointing them at American soldiers and shouting Bang, Bang.
Yeah, if it was happening a lot, I'm sure we'd have had a high-profile televised case already. But, no.

And I stand by my comparison of these allegations, to accusing US soldiers of planting carbombs in Iraqi civilian areas and blaming them on insurgents.

As for "trigger happy" soldiers -- it's all in the context:
A marine rifle squad is taking fire and is pinned down in the alleys of Falluja. A kid wielding a real-looking plastic AK runs accross the street 20 meters away in the direction of the incoming fire. I fully expect the soldiers to shoot him dead -- I don't particularly blame the kid, but I don't blame the soldier either.
And I could think of several cases both ways, where you could place the blame on either. Regardless, it's an incomprehensibly moronic idea to carry a real-looking toy gun in an area where firefights are common.

Whatever the case may be. It would always hit the newstands as "Soldier shoot's harmless kid running for cover".

If indeed they are giving such toys to their children. How do we know this to be true? On the say-so of one US troop?

Sounds to me like someone in the know is hoping to drop a little untruth into the mix to cover the asses of hairtrigger GIs shooting at anything that moves.

Oops! I thought that preschooler was Osama Bin Laden, sarge, honest!

Don't worry, we'll just blame their parents. Who wants a brewski?
"Hairtrigger" GIs, huh. You obviously have a lot to learn, but I suspect you won't want to learn anything which doesn't fit your preconcieved notions. Places you in the same category with Fundamentalists ... "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already closed." :(

why would they need to trick the americans they'll do it anyway

the amount of shelling they give each building their gonna get a whole generation atleast, excuses or no excuses

Whatever the case may be. It would always hit the newstands as "Soldier shoot's harmless kid running for cover".

The media tends to do that whatever it's reporting. The world is simply not exciting enough to have 24 hour news channels without a bit of "poetic license".

So slanted, it can't be anything but American propaganda.

***

A bit like saying that the Americans deliberately car bomb Iraqi civilians to make the insurgents look bad.

Ha, you think that doesn't happen?

Meh ... we got some pretty realistic toy guns here in the US ... sometimes cops shoot someone for having one ...

I'm more interested in why - if we're trying to make Iraq into US 2.0 - can Iraqi children not have something US children get gleefully under the xmas tree.

Ha, you think that doesn't happen?
Yes, I think that doesn't happen. And if you do, you're less in touch with reality than I thought you were. Once again, the "Don't confuse me with the facts" approach applies ... just another "Fundamentalist" in disguise.

Whatever the case may be. It would always hit the newstands as "Soldier shoot's harmless kid running for cover".
In some papers, certainly. That kind of thing sells. Doesn't mean I have to give a bleep. Once the people who write those articles and the general public have tried what being under fire is like I can perhaps start respecting their views on such matters.

Not that I've ever been under live fire, but what little I've read from combat reports and from the better books describing combat (like Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden), I can only conclude that simply thinking coherently when under fire is extremely difficult for the average human being, even if very well trained -- let alone being able to tell between an actual AK and a real-looking toy AK at range within a fraction of a second. It would be truly ridiculous to, for example, require the soldiers to actually witness that particular person to be shooting at them before shooting at him back.

And I'm still not saying I think this is a true story, or that the soldiers aren't often to blame. Just that always blaming the military and the soldier specifically for such things is unnecessarily harsh.

Re: Americans deliberately car bombing Iraqi civilians to make the insurgents look bad.

Regardless of the "US Is Evil" vs "Paranoid Hatemongering" factor, I doubt US agencies would be stupid enough to do that. I doubt the car bombs actually make the US look any better -- on the contrary, they are seen by many as a reminder of the fucked up situation US has put them in. And whether US agencies actually did that or not, you can bet your ass some local news agencies there, and a significant part of the population, will still think US is behind at least some of the car bombs. I don't doubt US is "3v1l" enough to do it, I just doubt they'd be stupid enough.

MMMM.. Like the US distributed toys and food to the Afghans?

OH WAIT! Those weren't toys :/

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/CBAfgh1116.htm

Actually you'll be surprised at the level of anti-americanism in Muslim countries.

Some of my Muslim friends actually believe that American's do car bomb Iraqi civilians. Or that suicide bombers that blow up themselves in markets and police stations are right, because it's a noteworthy expression that "America shouldn't be there".

MMMM.. Like the US distributed toys and food to the Afghans?

OH WAIT! Those weren't toys :/

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/CBAfgh1116.htm

But they were toys! Lovely explosive ones!

"Hairtrigger" GIs, huh. You obviously have a lot to learn, but I suspect you won't want to learn anything which doesn't fit your preconcieved notions. Places you in the same category with Fundamentalists ... "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already closed." :(

And your mind isn't terribly open, either, Eutrusca, at least not where this is concerned. Yes, I'll say it again: 'hairtrigger' GIs. Huh. Yeah.

Like the hairtrigger pilot who killed those Canadian troops in Afghanistan. Like any number of other examples we've all seen or heard about.

Isn't it a tad naive to assume that every US soldier is above 'shooting first and asking questions later'?

Just saying.

Americans deliberately car bomb Iraqi civilians to make the insurgents look bad.
wouldn't put it past them

You could say the same about children dieing in Britain or America. "It's their fault they were on the train track anyway, it's not our responsibility to put up fences".
Or something along those lines.
The thing is we DO put up fences. Our communities try to take care of the kids. The parents and community leaders in Iraq don't seem interested in keeping their kids safe.

Of course, we don't have any proof that they're being carried around in combat areas. I mean, even if they are I doubt that the kids are running around, pointing them at American soldiers and shouting Bang, Bang.
One of the soldiers interviewed recounted the story of being on routine patrol and having a 17 year old kid point a realistic SMG at him. When he raised his M4 the kid dropped his toy. When the soldier took the kid back home and warned his parents the parents didn't seem to understand that their kid was putting himself in grave danger.

Whatever the case may be. It would always hit the newstands as "Soldier shoot's harmless kid running for cover".
Especially on Al Jazeera.

why would they need to trick the americans they'll do it anyway

the amount of shelling they give each building their gonna get a whole generation atleast, excuses or no excuses
Are you fucking high? The US has been pretty careful to minimize civilian casualties. They do their best to keep civilian deaths down and still complete their missions. If they really went around shooting everything that moved and bombing the hell out of entire neighborhoods there would be damn few Iraqis left.

MMMM.. Like the US distributed toys and food to the Afghans?

OH WAIT! Those weren't toys :/

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/CBAfgh1116.htm
Unexploded cluster bombs are a fact of war. It's not like we left toys packed with tetryl to take off kid's hands.