NationStates Jolt Archive

This Thanksgiving I think I had too much salt in my food (it was served at a restaurant) and experienced a near-death sort of euphoria. The end result was that I could sort of stand spending quality time with the family, and by extension, see that people are complex organisms, not simply abstract concepts and black and white labels.
Well, the good vibes have warn off, and the angst and depression are back on track, but I'm left with the old cliche Enlightenment question regarding mankind.

Locke or pot, Calvin or Hobbes, bitches?

(Yes, I know the theories don't exactly coincide with the names, but work with me, it worked with the damn rhymes. :p)

I don't know, sound like someone in the kitchen mighta spiked the buffet...sounds kinda trippy, though.

I don't know, sound like someone in the kitchen mighta spiked the buffet...sounds kinda trippy, though.
Yep.


For the record, I'm one of the little sh*ts who picked "other".

It's a fact that mankind is inherently selfish and guided by self interest. But that isn't necessarily good or evil...
And besides, it fucked with the rhyme scheme, and was a forethought. ;D

Humankind didn't survive this long stictly on selfishness and irrationality. Don't discount the group as an extended organism. The trick for the next few centuries is finding a way to transfer individual allegiance from the tribe to humankind as a whole ... and beyond that, to life as a whole. When that happens, and I have faith that it will, humankind will have truly matured.

Mankind is selfinterested but its a nationalistic self interest for example a country will do what is best for its people first

Motive of Man? Banging a chick.

Motive of Man? Banging a chick.

HaHa nice one, but what if hes gay???

motive of man? enjoy his life to the best of his abilities. at least thats what i think it should be, everything else is just a waste of time :)

Eh, I'm optomistic.

Man's heart is deceitfully evil.

Man on the most basic level is evil and self-guided. In this time that we live in, where everyone is complex, with many attributes and modern-day traits, Man will try to justify it's actions, good or evil.

It really is all a race to the top of the heap. Everyone will trample each other (representing evil actions) without really giving it a sub-concious thought, and will justify their actions in the end.

Man is born "good", i.e. relatively harmless. He only learns to be "bad" as he grows in consciousnss, until he reaches a point where he realizes he doesn't have to be "bad". Then he dies.

It is a law of nature that animals (including humans) do what gives them the greatest benifits with the least amount of effort. It depends on the person whether they choose to be good or not; whether they value being kind to others or being rich.

in a "civilized" society it helps not to punch your neighbor in the face. when theres no structured society it probably will help you to punch him in the face and steal his food and run away.

I checked all boxes.

Why? Because I could.

I think that attitude sums up mankind for me.

Mankind is irredemably egoistical, but can use reason to escape his 'nature' (Stirner, sort of)

To Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love,
All pray in their distress,
And to these virtues of delight
Return their thankfulness.

For Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love,
Is God our Father dear;
And Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love,
Is man, His child and care.

For Mercy has a human heart;
Pity, a human face;
And Love, the human form divine:
And Peace the human dress.

Then every man, of every clime,
That prays in his distress,
Prays to the human form divine:
Love, Mercy, Pity, Peace.

And all must love the human form,
In heathen, Turk, or Jew.
Where Mercy, Love, and Pity dwell,
There God is dwelling too.

Mankind is irredemably egoistical, but can use reason to escape his 'nature' (Stirner, sort of)

To Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love,
All pray in their distress,
And to these virtues of delight
Return their thankfulness.

For Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love,
Is God our Father dear;
And Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love,
Is man, His child and care.

For Mercy has a human heart;
Pity, a human face;
And Love, the human form divine:
And Peace the human dress.

Then every man, of every clime,
That prays in his distress,
Prays to the human form divine:
Love, Mercy, Pity, Peace.

And all must love the human form,
In heathen, Turk, or Jew.
Where Mercy, Love, and Pity dwell,
There God is dwelling too.
Why does he need to "escape"? The ego, glowing healthy, as demonstrated in William Blake's poem above, is a very good thing.

Why does he need to "escape"? The ego, glowing healthy, as demonstrated in William Blake's poem above, is a very good thing.
The Ego isn't healthy, it keeps us in an animal like existence, it is only by transending that that we begin to exhibit values like Mercy, Love etc.

There is another side to that poem though.

Cruelty has a human heart,
And Jealousy a human face;
Terror the human form divine,
And secrecy the human dress.

The human dress is forged iron,
The human form a fiery forge,
The human face a furnace seal'd,
The human heart its hungry gorge.

Humankind is biologically motivated. It does what evolution thinks is best for the species. It is just like any other organism. Morals are a human conception, not a natural one.

This Thanksgiving I think I had too much salt in my food (it was served at a restaurant) and experienced a near-death sort of euphoria. The end result was that I could sort of stand spending quality time with the family, and by extension, see that people are complex organisms, not simply abstract concepts and black and white labels.
Well, the good vibes have warn off, and the angst and depression are back on track, but I'm left with the old cliche Enlightenment question regarding mankind.

Locke or pot, Calvin or Hobbes, bitches?

(Yes, I know the theories don't exactly coincide with the names, but work with me, it worked with the damn rhymes. :p)

People who let huge events rule their emotions tend to collapse under the weight of those events. Sure, people are complex organisms...but that doesn't keep them from being bigoted, ego-national, ego-racial assholes.

People who let huge events rule their emotions tend to collapse under the weight of those events. Sure, people are complex organisms...but that doesn't keep them from being bigoted, ego-national, ego-racial assholes.
Well, if you want to technical, all multicellular organisms, except a few protists that are only kind of a multicellular organism, are complex. What he meant was that the human mind is more complex than is stereotypically thought by cynics. I used to think that way, but when you get to know different types of people and find out why they are bigoted and egotistical, you begin to appreciate them more. I'm still cynical, but I'm not as bad as I was before.

The Ego isn't healthy, it keeps us in an animal like existence, it is only by transending that that we begin to exhibit values like Mercy, Love etc.

Hmm, I guess I disagree, then; with Blake or you, though, I'm not sure. ;)

A healthy ego is a very fine thing to be around. We rise above our "animal nature" by virtue of knowing ourselves and asserting our ego.

Hmm, I guess I disagree, then; with Blake or you, though, I'm not sure. ;)

A healthy ego is a very fine thing to be around. We rise above our "animal nature" by virtue of knowing ourselves and asserting our ego.
I think we are saying the same thing but are using different definitions.

bump

Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men?

The Shadow knows

Mu-ha-ha-ha!!!

(Credit where credit is due - The love of my life made this reply as I read the thread topic to her :fluffle: )

I chose one, two and three because I think human nature is a mix of both good and evil. While I'm neither denying nor affirming the existence of God or the devil I don't think you need to rely on either to account for human actions, because we have a proclivity for both. Sure, most everything we do is done out of self-interest, but humans have also shown a capability for great altruism and sacrifice for the good of others.

I also picked three because that's how I feel most days, being a bit of a cynical bitch who doesn't suffer fools lightly. :P

The Shadow aside, man has as many motives as there are men (and women). While these motives can be broken down into generalized catagories and moral opposites, but the nuances behind the motives are vast and spledily variable. This is one of the beautiful things about humanity. Thus, I choose option five - other. I also like picking other, especially when dared to do so. This being said, most people do seem to be out for number one or at the most them and theirs. This probably goes back to some primeval trait in the reptile part of our brains.



I also picked three because that's how I feel most days, being a bit of a cynical bitch who doesn't suffer fools lightly. :P


I'm with ya, but even though I can be a fool at times, wouldja still suffer me if I'm cute about it? :D :fluffle:

The Shadow aside, man has as many motives as there are men (and women). While these motives can be broken down into generalized catagories and moral opposites, but the nuances behind the motives are vast and spledily variable. This is one of the beautiful things about humanity. Thus, I choose option five - other. I also like picking other, especially when dared to do so. This being said, most people do seem to be out for number one or at the most them and theirs. This probably goes back to some primeval trait in the reptile part of our brains.





I'm with ya, but even though I can be a fool at times, wouldja still suffer me if I'm cute about it? :D :fluffle:

Hehe sure! :D Heck, everyone's foolish at times, God knows I am!

Hehe sure! :D Heck, everyone's foolish at times, God knows I am!


Tanx! let's be foolish together sometime!

ps pls ignore BL. He/she should be deleted by the mods (again) in the next few days at therate he/she's going - as long as they do their jobs. previous handle was Blind Liberal - original, no? :rolleyes:

We are neither good nor bad, but have free will.

I checked the first 3 boxes and left Calvin (inherently guided by god) and Other empty. Man can be pratially described, but not completely, by each of the first three. But not the fourth. God does not exist.

Now, you see, the purpose of man is an old question.
The answer is not as simple as 2 or 3 lines of text.
Man is inherently beautiful, whether in body or spirit, life or death. Man is good by nature, and after that can become corrupted towards evil and treachery.

Man is good until he betrays, and greatest after. The greatness is in his eyes, the good in the eyes of the world. (I think that was mine, but it could be a quote)

I hope someone else will understand what I'm trying to say. I have trouble putting things like this into words.

Edited for spelling

That was beautiful, you rambling fool.

But seriously, to pick the first two choices or the fourth choice is to undermine mankind and to label him.

Sure, everything we do is derived from selfish self interest; But who is to say whether that is bad or good? Perhaps it is the way in which we shape our self interest, our priorities, that defines us by those abstract terms.

And fuck God, he's too old to be playing with humans and legos. He should go get a real hobby.

Man is inherently beautiful, whether in body or spirit, life or death. Man is good by nature, and after that can become corrupted towards evil and treachery.
My God, that's a bunch of bullsh*t. I agree that the cycle of life and death is pristinely beautiful, but humans are most certainly not inherently good or any such nonsense. Saying such things would completely eliminate the aspect of nature in nature vs. nurture. Explain sadism, if you will. Sometimes I'm sure it is brought about by experience, but I'd wager quite a bit that there are heavy biological factors as well. That's just an extreme example, though, as I understand there is no pandemic of sadism in the world. (Though there is the sadistic epidemic among politicians...either that or idiocy)

Man is good until he betrays, and greatest after. The greatness is in his eyes, the good in the eyes of the world. (I think that was mine, but it could be a quote)
Betrays whom, praytell? Betrayal in its purest form is impossible in our world. What atom may go against the universe? Not too many, I expect you'll find.