NationStates Jolt Archive

Does Bush have the power of critical thinking?

Bad Idea (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041126/ap_on_go_pr_wh/second_term_abstinence)

Disregarding any emotional views on whether you want to see high school kids having sex, is there any way that this is not a terrible waste of money?
130 million dollars on abstinence education? I come from the midwest, bible-belt all the way, and kids are told by their parents from early on to wait for marriage, so how is this going to make any difference?

Not only is it a collosal waste of money, but it is dangerous in that it seeks to eliminate education on contraception, opening a broad door for teen pregnancy and STD's.

God, I hope this gets shot down. I'm sure he will include something about saving kittens in the bill, also. That way he can say that the next democratic candidate voted to promote teen sex and kitten murder.

Phew, for a minute I was worried that someone decent might get in and my country would go back to first on teen pregnancies for a bit. Go Bush!!

All we need to do is get rid of that silly Roe v. Wade and then we can all sorts of abused and malnourished children running around.

Not teaching contraception+outlawing abortion+lowering welfare= :headbang:

Honestly, yeah, it's a waste of money, however, I see where Bush is coming from. Sex SHOULD be saved for marriage, but we can't force kids to wait...if they're going to have sex, they're going to have sex. The alternative, teaching safe sex, is much better.

I think Bush tries to do the right thing, I think he has the American values at heart- he just screws up sometimes.

Honestly, yeah, it's a waste of money, however, I see where Bush is coming from. Sex SHOULD be saved for marriage, but we can't force kids to wait...if they're going to have sex, they're going to have sex.
Sex "SHOULD" be saved for whenever it's appropriate. I am currently 15 and celibate, but I must frankly say I wouldn't turn down a safe opportunity for it. Assuming I wasn't too embarrased... But I digress. The fact of the matter is that sex after marriage is a Christian ideal, not a human one. Hell, male humans can procreate at 10, and females whenever they being menstration. Biologically speaking, it is meant for whenever. Culturally speaking, it is for whenever an individual is ready, in my opinion.
I think Bush tries to do the right thing, I think he has the American values at heart- he just screws up sometimes.
No, Bush has Christian values. Not to be confused with American values.

Honestly, yeah, it's a waste of money, however, I see where Bush is coming from. Sex SHOULD be saved for marriage, but we can't force kids to wait...if they're going to have sex, they're going to have sex. The alternative, teaching safe sex, is much better.

I think Bush tries to do the right thing, I think he has the American values at heart- he just screws up sometimes.

Why SHOULD sex be saved for marriage though? What makes that the 'right thing' for everyone.
As for spending hiiiideous amounts of $ on abstinance edu. well it just reinforces my idea that Bush is a clueless idiot. I still can't believe you people voted for him. He may try to do the right thing, but he sucks at it.

Honestly, yeah, it's a waste of money, however, I see where Bush is coming from. Sex SHOULD be saved for marriage, but we can't force kids to wait...if they're going to have sex, they're going to have sex. The alternative, teaching safe sex, is much better.

I think Bush tries to do the right thing, I think he has the American values at heart- he just screws up sometimes.

Well, like some have already said, waiting til marriage is generally a Christian belief, not American. Does anyone know the percentage of people in this country who lose their virginity voluntarily before marriage? I'm not sure. I personally don't care if the time comes before or after marriage (for me that is), just so long as I honestly love the person. Money should be spent on safe sex as opposed to the alternative. So we agree there.

Sometimes is of course and understatement. He's sort of like a child with his first chemistry set...kaboom...

Yay....Bush is turning sex ed into Catholic school... :headbang:

I come from Denmark...

Quote:
Why SHOULD sex be saved for marriage though? What makes that the 'right thing' for everyone.
As for spending hiiiideous amounts of $ on abstinance edu. well it just reinforces my idea that Bush is a clueless idiot. I still can't believe you people voted for him. He may try to do the right thing, but he sucks at it.

-I think U are right :D

-In the USA you got about 17 times more pregnant teens than in DK :confused: ...Let me put it gently...THE ABSTINANCE STRATEGI DOES NOT WORK AT ALL :headbang:

-Education works better... because:
1) On avarige... it turns out that education makes you have a later sexual debut. :)
2) A much lower frequence (Need a better word, sorry) of unwanted pregnant teens :)
3) Less guilt and moral judgement. Poor girls :rolleyes:
4) You do not give Africa a useless program of abstinance. I tell you... it will cost the lives of millions... but then again it´s just Niggers :( Honestly I think it is the greates FUCK UP Bush ever made. My heart bleeds and I feel like Crying :( It is a very serious matter. A lot of people are horrified by the situation in Iraq... Just remember that Africa is Dying slowly by the 1.000.000´s not 100´s. The amount of money America spend in Africa is not much compared with Iraq!? Almost Half of all woman south of Sahara got HIV by now... abstinance education MY ASS!

Harry (English is not my native Language)

abstinence is unrealistic and unnatural.

abstinence is unrealistic and unnatural.

And unenjoyable. A recipe for a lost generation of masturbating wrecks. A boon for the hand cream industry.

Ahhh, wait a moment. Any manufacturers of lubricant, skin cream/lotion, etc. known to be Bush electoral benefactors? There might be the answer.

Abstinence drives up the demand for masturbatory aids, I should have thought of that one earlier.

And unenjoyable. A recipe for a lost generation of masturbating wrecks. A boon for the hand cream industry.

Ahhh, wait a moment. Any manufacturers of lubricant, skin cream/lotion, etc. known to be Bush electoral benefactors? There might be the answer.

Abstinence drives up the demand for masturbatory aids, I should have thought of that one earlier.
isnt masterbation cheating?

I'm sure he will include something about saving kittens in the bill, also. That way he can say that the next democratic candidate voted to promote teen sex and kitten murder.

The government is WAY too powerful if they can ban kitten murder (masturbation, for those of you who don't get the reference). :mad:

Regardless of whether you believe sex should be saved for marriage, college, the right person, or whenever the hell you decide you want to - teens don't fucking listen to people telling them hard and fast what to do. You have to couple abstinence education with contraceptive and STD-protection education, otherwise, the majority that don't give a damn whether you want them to wait or not are potentially SCREWED, no pun intended. If your parents tell you not to buy a candy bar for the next week and you want to buy a candy bar in the next week, you'll find a way to do it. If there's some danger of it being laced with arsenic and they didn't tell you about arsenic neutralizer, you can't protect yourself when you decide screw it, I'm getting the damn candy bar anyway.

You do not give Africa a useless program of abstinance. I tell you... it will cost the lives of millions... but then again it´s just Niggers :(

Why should we care that 1 000 000 brown people die somewhere? *sarcasm* :headbang:

isnt masterbation cheating?

I guess it depends on how you define 'abstinence'. My definition of abstinence DEFINITELY includes masturbation.

So do you happen to know if the manufacturers of K-Y jelly threw any fiscal support behind Bush's re-election, by any chance?

In the words of Joycelyn Elders, "We all know the vows of abstinence break far more easily than latex condoms." Joycelyn Elders served as the US Surgeon General until 1994, when she suggested that schools discuss masturbation. To me, she is a heroine.

In the words of Joycelyn Elders, "We all know the vows of abstinence break far more easily than latex condoms." Joycelyn Elders served as the US Surgeon General until 1994, when she suggested that schools discuss masturbation. To me, she is a heroine.

I recall feeling so happily blown away that you guys had had the good luck to have such an amazing woman as your Surgeon General. She was absolutely a heroine, so of course she had to go. Of course I was upset when I heard the anti-masturbation hysteria.

It's good to masturbate, everybody! Of course, sex with a partner is better, but hey, at least it's sex with someone you love, right?

I lost my virginity a long time ago to a person who I did not love. That said, I do not think abstinance should be the only thing taught. I believe this because I come from a town with one of the highest nation wide teen pregnancy rates in the US. The school I went to taught only abstinance. The people in charge brought in a bunch of church folks in order to "convince us" that abstinance was the only way. They "convinced" one person out of the 200 I asked, and that girl wound up pregnant at our graduation. I find this sad. I would like to recommend a system such as the one in California, where they teach abstinance, but MUST ALSO teach safety. This would upease many of my worries.

Well, like some have already said, waiting til marriage is generally a Christian belief, not American. Does anyone know the percentage of people in this country who lose their virginity voluntarily before marriage? I'm not sure. I personally don't care if the time comes before or after marriage (for me that is), just so long as I honestly love the person. Money should be spent on safe sex as opposed to the alternative. So we agree there.

Sometimes is of course and understatement. He's sort of like a child with his first chemistry set...kaboom...

The highest estimate I've heard of people losing their "V" card before marriage is 92%. I'm not sure about the accuracy of that because I heard it by word of mouth. So, it might not be credible.

They mean well, really. I grew up in a highly conservative family, with abstinence not just exhorted to me, but expected and assumed from me. I was actually abstinent for quite some time (excepting from some minor juvenile curiousities and explorations). Then I hit the real world. I came out of the closet, first to myself, then to my new world.

My problems began, I want to stress this clearly, from my own self-control issues. HOWEVER, had my uber-conservative Christian school actually taught anything other than abstinence and not just glossed over the section in Health class about sex, I might actually have given it some more importance. See, when all you tell a child is not to have sex, and not what it is, what it can do, and the other realities of the actual, physical act, you merely plant the seeds of curiousity, without giving the child a real chance to also see the risks and gravities that sexual intimacy implies.

I'm not saying that kids should go around having sex (even in high school). But it has and will happen. Not everyone waits (not by far, in today's world), so why make things worse by feigning ignorance when all the facts point in the other direction.

Thanks again, Mr. President. Thanks alot. :headbang:

in every single way, he seems incapable of using his ideology as any thing but a weapon... bludgeoning groups and ideas and individuals, left, right, up and down...

studies have shown that where there are only abstinence programs the premarital sex rate was higher and so was the pregnancy rate as compared with those areas that taught sex ed.

if you want sources go to google.

Quote:

Why should we care that 1 000 000 brown people die somewhere? *sarcasm*

-Well you might be right :D But if it was not Niggers in Africa but people from Florida :eek: I think the mood would change!? :p

Quote:

In the words of Joycelyn Elders, "We all know the vows of abstinence break far more easily than latex condoms." Joycelyn Elders served as the US Surgeon General until 1994, when she suggested that schools discuss masturbation. To me, she is a heroine.

-Yes we like her very much :D

Bush has been pushing for abstinence-only education for years. 61 million Americans voted for it and everything else he supports

Bush has been pushing for abstinence-only education for years. 61 million Americans voted for it and everything else he supports

Well that's great but there's at least 300 million of you guys down there, right?

Sure there are approximately 330 million of us here. Unfortunately, all people under 18 cannot vote, and only 50-60 percent of the available registered voters take the time to vote. Also felons cannot vote, and this country has one of the highest enprisonment rates in the world...especially in people of color and youths (people more likely to be liberals.) 40% of the population at large got off their obese asses to vote in the most important election of their lives. Shows how apathetic this country is. Especially when that's the largest turnout (percentage) since Kennedy v. Nixon.

Basically it comes down to:
Bush's trained loonies were stronger and more motivated than Kerry's loonies. And that I need to find a apolitical place safe from nuclear fallout for the next 4-12 years.

What I find most annoying is that the USA spends so much money on preventing HIV worldwide... but most of that money goes towards abstinence promotion groups.

That is just bloody irresponsible. Everything I've learnt in geography shows that that sort of approach does not work. It sort of says something when the King of Lesotho is trying to promote abstinence as well, but has not made the tiniest dent on the 30+% infection rate in his country.
Abstinence is not going to stop young girls who prostitute themselves from getting HIV... it is most definitely not going to stop the highly-infected African armies from raping women or using prostitutes... and it is definitely not going to have any support amongst tribes who rate a man on his sexual virility.
Education, liberation of women, family planning and contraceptives will halt the march of HIV. Not abstinence. Look at Thailand.

What I find most annoying is that the USA spends so much money on preventing HIV worldwide... but most of that money goes towards abstinence promotion groups.

That is just bloody irresponsible. Everything I've learnt in geography shows that that sort of approach does not work. It sort of says something when the King of Lesotho is trying to promote abstinence as well, but has not made the tiniest dent on the 30+% infection rate in his country.
Abstinence is not going to stop young girls who prostitute themselves from getting HIV... it is most definitely not going to stop the highly-infected African armies from raping women or using prostitutes... and it is definitely not going to have any support amongst tribes who rate a man on his sexual virility.
Education, liberation of women, family planning and contraceptives will halt the march of HIV. Not abstinence. Look at Thailand.

but then surely the best way to not get HIV would be not to have casual sex, "use protection, but i dont have any oh well thats the current situation your dealign with"

but then surely the best way to not get HIV would be not to have casual sex, "use protection, but i dont have any oh well thats the current situation your dealign with"

I think rockadia was talking about girls who prostitute themselves because of dire circumstance, legit.

I think rockadia was talking about girls who prostitute themselves because of dire circumstance, legit.

"Education, liberation of women, family planning and contraceptives will halt the march of HIV. Not abstinence" hookers who go to family planning give me a break

It's good to masturbate, everybody! Of course, sex with a partner is better, but hey, at least it's sex with someone you love, right?

Is that not a Woody Allen quote? :rolleyes:

This is actually one of the times where I disaggree with my president.

The natural urge to screw is stronger than the federal urge to not.

My question is: Why can't we talk about screwing at home rather than in school. Let's educate children how to be intelligent and to do what they want, not how to do who they want and be safe about it. We have worthless slackers for parents who know that our government will take care of their kids (or try vainly to) and use that as a cop-out on their responsibility.

On the flip-side...maybe if we taught contraception a few generations ago, people would keep from having kids and asshole parents like the ones prevously described would have not been born. Either way...tellin' people to not have sex will not work, because people want to have sex.

R.A.

Is that not a Woody Allen quote? :rolleyes:

Is it? Oh, wait - maybe it is. Unintentional if true.

Yeah, I agree it's a sad development, but I'm not surprised. American politics have been conservative for as long as I can remember (this program started, strangely enough, with Bill Clinton), and this is merely a continuation of that. Because of this, I think it will be a while before sex education becomes supported politically, regardless of who is in charge.

This is actually one of the times where I disaggree with my president.

The natural urge to screw is stronger than the federal urge to not.

My question is: Why can't we talk about screwing at home rather than in school. Let's educate children how to be intelligent and to do what they want, not how to do who they want and be safe about it. We have worthless slackers for parents who know that our government will take care of their kids (or try vainly to) and use that as a cop-out on their responsibility.

On the flip-side...maybe if we taught contraception a few generations ago, people would keep from having kids and asshole parents like the ones prevously described would have not been born. Either way...tellin' people to not have sex will not work, because people want to have sex.

R.A.

The thing is, everybody's got to be working with the same information, especially about STDs and pregnancy - and a place like a school is ideally suited to getting that info out there.

I learned through a course on human sexuality taught by the Unitarians to their senior RE class, back when I was a wee nipper. Well, 12, actually. And incredibly sexually precocious. Good course. Completely demystified it for me, but without making it dull or pedantic.

My concern is that if left to home-schooling, there's no way of knowing how well-informed young people would be - and you can't expect somene to make well-informed decisions if they're lacking information withheld for whatever reason.

Quote:

"Education, liberation of women, family planning and contraceptives will halt the march of HIV. Not abstinence" hookers who go to family planning give me a break"

-Hurra! Hurra! And Legit has taken the MORAL highground... :headbang:

-Reality check LEGIT! They are people too and they need help. We are talking about half of all mature women south of the Sahara desert in Africa. They will be dead before the decade ends from HIV/AIDS. :rolleyes: You can call them hookers if want to... it will not solve the problem, only make it worse.

Harry (English is not my native language)

"Education, liberation of women, family planning and contraceptives will halt the march of HIV. Not abstinence" hookers who go to family planning give me a break

Okay, I'll explain myself.

Education: - Gives women the opportunity to actually pursue a proper career, rather than being forced into something like prostitution. Also, education on STDs will raise awareness and will make people more cautious.

Liberation of Women: - Gives them the motivation to get an education, pursue their own career etc. Also, women who are more aware of their opportunities will be less inclined to be accepting of being forced into prostitution. Also, in terms of what I said with the African army units... some of their infection rates are horrendous. And with the number of civil wars and refugees in Africa, the number of vulnerable women is high. Women who are more aware are less likely to submit themselves to prostitution for soldiers. Rape is a hard thing to escape any way.

Family Planning: - This applies more to breaking the poverty cycle (and in any case, my original post did not refer only to prostitutes). Breaking that though can help to ease the burden on families and the country as a whole, making it less susceptible to major HIV/AIDS outbreaks.
But also, family planning does teach more about responsible sex (i.e. how to prevent having children, and not being too promiscuous), and this can impact on HIV infection rates from casual sex.
And, family planning by its very nature introduces health issues into families. It can help prevent HIV-positive mothers from transmitting to their unborn children, because family planning introduces outside help to the family, including doctors who can prescribe short courses of AZT

Contraception: - Obvious in its own way.

I direct you to http://www.avert.org/aidsthai.htm

See what they have done, and their relative success in their battle against one of their biggest problems. No where on the page is abstinence mentioned.

How many times do I have to repeat Bush is a bloody fool? US representatives at the world AIDS gathering where almost funny! And now Bush plans to do it on a smaller scale, but wasting much more money for it. I suspect he sees abstinence as a capitalist term.

"We give you money only if it doesn't go to sex-ed and straight to abstinence education. And give our companies some space in the meantime. Sure, abstinence might not succeed, but there will be another world AIDS day next year. We can give you more funds then, in exchange for company privileges, and it will go down the drain again. But rest assured we will continue to fund your abstinence program and fill our own pockets. Just don't EVER stop the spread of AIDS!"

Blown out of proportion? Maybe. But still, what good does abstinence in a continent where women can't say to their husbands 'no sex untill you get a condom, or cure for your disease'? In Africa, women have NO RIGHTS, you hear that? In Morocco women might be equal by law but that's about the only exception I could name. Bush's abstinence programs do nothing to stop STDs, waste loads of cash and all it accomplishes is maintain his own little world of ignorance where all who have teen sex are baaaaad Americans.

Bush's next bad idea is the devaluation of the dollar and the removal of it as a serious world currency ...

Bush's next bad idea is the devaluation of the dollar and the removal of it as a serious world currency ...

I thought he already started doing that. Japanese Yen just gained in value by almost 10% and a single Euro is the same as 1.3 dollars lol...he's well on his way. Soon Yen will be 1:1 with the dollar...that's a scary thought

Really, this is a matter for teens to discuss with their parents, their clergy if any, and planned parenthood. There is no reason to involve schools in anything other than a basic "how things work".

-In the USA you got about 17 times more pregnant teens than in DK :confused: ...Let me put it gently...THE ABSTINANCE STRATEGI DOES NOT WORK AT ALL :headbang:

Just one quick note, Ussel Mammon. In the USA we also have a considerably higher population than Denmark, so its not surprising that we have more pregnant teens.

However, if you look at the teen pregnancy rates on this page (http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/3201400.html), you will note that Denmark has a much lower proportional number of teen pregnancies as well, with 22.7 pregnant teens per every thousand females aged 15-19, whereas the USA has 83.6 pregnant teens per every thousand females aged 15-19.

Note: You may have to scroll down the page quite a bit to find the chart.

Really, this is a matter for teens to discuss with their parents, their clergy if any, and planned parenthood. There is no reason to involve schools in anything other than a basic "how things work".

But some parents would be too embarassed. possibly leading to screwed up kids. Especially if they make them see sex as something bad.

That bastard bush, hes taking away my chance of doing 1000 hot chicks by christmas.

[QUOTE=The Rockonians]

My question is: Why can't we talk about screwing at home rather than in school.

Answer: Like millions of other Americans, I am a guy who was raised by a single woman (my Grandmother). Because of a pretty good SexEd program here in Florida, I knew more about the issue than she did by 6th grade.
We didn't discuss sex (her opinion was, Don't Have It!)... open, honest discussion occurred in the classrooms.
Some people need these educational resources, and won't find them at home.
And thanks to a good program, I'm 28 and haven't knocked up anyone yet.

Really, this is a matter for teens to discuss with their parents, their clergy if any, and planned parenthood. There is no reason to involve schools in anything other than a basic "how things work".

There is plenty of reason when the parents or clergy or whomever are not getting through. Firstly, if my mother came to me and said "don't have sex cause I said so" or tried to give me an STD talk, I'd wave my hand and disregard it, I might even go against what she says. Fact is teens in America are rebellious for the most part, they try to do what they want, against what their parents say. Maybe not to the extent like we see sometimes (gangs, violence, excessive drug use, etc) but to a small extent sure. If the parents either a) can't get it through to the kids, or b) aren't doing their job to begin with, then something else has to be done. We have health ed in schools, might as well use a small portion of that to teach about safe sex.

...edit...
That and if you think about it. if we started just having it taught at home and nobody was learning anything new about the subject, you'd see a deterioration (spelling?) in the education of kids. Schools are far more informed than the home. I know if I had a kid, I wouldn't be able to give any good information on the subject at all, that and I'd rather have and educated teacher do it instead, they'd get a better education from it.

But some parents would be too embarassed. possibly leading to screwed up kids. Especially if they make them see sex as something bad.

Katganistan thinks that all those fundie Christian parents will actually show their kids how to use condoms and take them for proper checkups. Never mind that some of them can't even discuss sex with their own spouse or doctor...

Does Bush have the power of critical thinking?

Bad Idea (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041126/ap_on_go_pr_wh/second_term_abstinence)

Disregarding any emotional views on whether you want to see high school kids having sex, is there any way that this is not a terrible waste of money?
130 million dollars on abstinence education? I come from the midwest, bible-belt all the way, and kids are told by their parents from early on to wait for marriage, so how is this going to make any difference?

Not only is it a collosal waste of money, but it is dangerous in that it seeks to eliminate education on contraception, opening a broad door for teen pregnancy and STD's.

God, I hope this gets shot down. I'm sure he will include something about saving kittens in the bill, also. That way he can say that the next democratic candidate voted to promote teen sex and kitten murder.

There is nothing wrong with abstinence education. There's nothing wrong with increasing spending on abstinence education. But not at the expense of safe sex education. Deliberately promoting ignorance is not an educational policy.

There is nothing wrong with abstinence education. There's nothing wrong with increasing spending on abstinence education. But not at the expense of safe sex education. Deliberately promoting ignorance is not an educational policy.

Exactly. Of course it is important to encourage young people to hold off until they are truly ready, but only with the knowledge that some will do it anyways - and they should be as prepared as possible.

Abstinence-only education is like telling your kids "don't play with fire," and then hiding the fire extinguisher since "they shouldn't need it."

There is nothing wrong with abstinence education. There's nothing wrong with increasing spending on abstinence education. But not at the expense of safe sex education. Deliberately promoting ignorance is not an educational policy.

Other than abstinence education not working, there is nothing wrong with it. Kids aren't so stupid as to not equate that the best way to not get an STD is through not having sex. I don't see how a school teaching that is going to work. I cannot think of any outcome of abstinence education that doesn't involve kids who are woefully uneducated on safe sex.

Does Bush have the power of critical thinking?

Bad Idea (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041126/ap_on_go_pr_wh/second_term_abstinence)

Disregarding any emotional views on whether you want to see high school kids having sex, is there any way that this is not a terrible waste of money?
130 million dollars on abstinence education? I come from the midwest, bible-belt all the way, and kids are told by their parents from early on to wait for marriage, so how is this going to make any difference?

Not only is it a collosal waste of money, but it is dangerous in that it seeks to eliminate education on contraception, opening a broad door for teen pregnancy and STD's.

God, I hope this gets shot down. I'm sure he will include something about saving kittens in the bill, also. That way he can say that the next democratic candidate voted to promote teen sex and kitten murder.

Interesting. I noticed that blindLiberals and workForMe are not allowed to respond any more. What's wrong with this site?

Interesting. I noticed that blindLiberals and workForMe are not allowed to respond any more. What's wrong with this site?

:eek: BlindLiberals can't post anymore?! :eek:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I'm not really worried about it, he'll be back look for KillDonks or StabDemocraps.

:eek: BlindLiberals can't post anymore?! :eek:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I'm not really worried about it, he'll be back look for KillDonks or StabDemocraps.

They were both interesting (good?) Why do you not care if we can no longer hear their unusual opinions. I thought that they were "different".

They were both interesting (good?) Why do you not care if we can no longer hear their unusual opinions. I thought that they were "different".

They broke board rules more than once. Maybe not on this thread. I don't know. But somewhere along the line, they(he?) were bad boys.

They were both interesting (good?) Why do you not care if we can no longer hear their unusual opinions. I thought that they were "different".

Really, I don't care whether BlindLiberals can post or not, I thought he was rediculous, but at least he was good fun.

Apparently you missed some of BlindLiberals more interesting (good?) posts:

I was not talking to you. Good-night, Dick.

Pretty useless of you. What other nonsense do you have to waste our time?

That is exactly the way the DUMOCRATS ran things for 30 years. You lost. Move to Canada. They think they have better Medicare (unless you are sick).

I will miss all the Hillary "Rotten" Clinton, DUMOCRATS, and Donk references.

Really, I don't care whether BlindLiberals can post or not, I thought he was rediculous, but at least he was good fun.

Apparently you missed some of BlindLiberals more interesting (good?) posts:







I will miss all the Hillary "Rotten" Clinton, DUMOCRATS, and Donk references.

And your point is???

Does Bush have the power of critical thinking?

Bad Idea (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041126/ap_on_go_pr_wh/second_term_abstinence)

Disregarding any emotional views on whether you want to see high school kids having sex, is there any way that this is not a terrible waste of money?
130 million dollars on abstinence education? I come from the midwest, bible-belt all the way, and kids are told by their parents from early on to wait for marriage, so how is this going to make any difference?

Not only is it a collosal waste of money, but it is dangerous in that it seeks to eliminate education on contraception, opening a broad door for teen pregnancy and STD's.

God, I hope this gets shot down. I'm sure he will include something about saving kittens in the bill, also. That way he can say that the next democratic candidate voted to promote teen sex and kitten murder.

Exactly what are you complaining about?

They broke board rules more than once. Maybe not on this thread. I don't know. But somewhere along the line, they(he?) were bad boys.

You should have been on the OJ jury.

And your point is???

1. Welcome back, I was worried.

2. I had no point, hence more than 10 words.

3. Clever disguise.

4. Did you get kicked out for that Mods suck post?

5. Mods do suck.

Exactly what are you complaining about?

1. Abstinence education does not work.

2. Bush plans to spend 130 million on abstinence education.

3. I should take 130 million dumps and wipe with a dollar.

4. Septic tank would clog, but it would be more useful.

1. Welcome back, I was worried.

2. I had no point, hence more than 10 words.

3. Clever disguise.

4. Did you get kicked out for that Mods suck post?

5. Mods do suck.

1. Thanks. (Saves 1 word) Don't worry, be happy.

2. Me neither. That's why we are here.

3. So far.

4. I have no idea. Please explain it to me.

5. Si. (As we say in San Diego.)

You should have been on the OJ jury.

Jury? Hah! They aren't the ones that screwed up. They DID their job. I should've been doing the investigation. Then maybe it wouldn't have gotten screwed up.

1. Abstinence education does not work.

2. Bush plans to spend 130 million on abstinence education.

3. I should take 130 million dumps and wipe with a dollar.

4. Septic tank would clog, but it would be more useful.

Bush BS got more COUNTED votes than Kerry's.

Jury? Hah! They aren't the ones that screwed up. They DID their job. I should've been doing the investigation. Then maybe it wouldn't have gotten screwed up.

He plays golf every day in Florida. Go get him, TIGER.

He plays golf every day in Florida. Go get him, TIGER.

WHy? He's innocent.

Bush BS got more COUNTED votes than Kerry's.

True, nevertheless, it is still bullshit.

Why can't America vote for a non-BS candidate.

Anyone would be better than the last three choices.

Kerry + Gore + Bush = :headbang:

He plays golf every day in Florida. Go get him, TIGER.

Oops, 11 words, and easily avoidable.

True, nevertheless, it is still bullshit.

Why can't America vote for a non-BS candidate.

Anyone would be better than the last three choices.

Kerry + Gore + Bush = :headbang:

You forgot to mention Clinton + Clinton.

You forgot to mention Clinton + Clinton.

And Dole. ANd Pat Buchannan. And AL Sharpton. And Dole.

Did I mention Dole?

abstinence is unrealistic and unnatural.
it is the only truth

You forgot to mention Clinton + Clinton.

I didn't mind the he-Clinton.

I will vote republican in the she-Clinton runs.

WHy? He's innocent.

He is not "innocent". He was not considered "guilty" by a biased "jury of jerks" in the criminal trial. He was guilty in the civil trial.

I didn't mind the he-Clinton.

I will vote republican in the she-Clinton runs.

I respect your insight. I think most would vote for HE rather than SHE Clinton. (I was about to say HE over SHE Clinton, but NEVER MIND).

He is not "innocent". He was not considered "guilty" by a biased "jury of jerks" in the criminal trial. He was guilty in the civil trial.

'Innocent until proven guilty'.

He's innocent.

Doesn't mean he didn't do it, the prick.

I don't see the LAPD looking for the real killer.

This topic has gotten derailed. And we have yet to hear what Blindliberals thinks of the primary topic too.

He is not "innocent". He was not considered "guilty" by a biased "jury of jerks" in the criminal trial. He was guilty in the civil trial.

they don't find you 'guilty' in civil trials.

'Innocent until proven guilty'.

He's innocent.

Doesn't mean he didn't do it, the prick.

I don't see the LAPD looking for the real killer.

The LAPD (and everyone else) knows that the "real" killer lives in Florida, and his phony lawyers are to blame (they "live" in Beverly Hills, Calif.). Anyway, what is the "real-important point" of this thread.

they don't find you 'guilty' in civil trials.

Obviously, you skipped "Divorce Court".

True, nevertheless, it is still bullshit.

Why can't America vote for a non-BS candidate.

Anyone would be better than the last three choices.

Kerry + Gore + Bush = :headbang:

VO, please! Re-take your flock.

Obviously, you skipped "Divorce Court".

So far, so good. :)

So far, so good. :)

You win! Go away and pick up your prize.

So far, so good. :)

By the way, GOOD NAME.

Thanks. And despite my name, I have spent less than 72 total hours of my life in a straitjacket. *nod*

VO, please! Re-take your flock.

Alas, I have no flock.

No, Bush has Christian values. Not to be confused with American values.

I totally agree. I think this is just another case of george w bush trying to push his belives on the rest of the country.

I really despise Bush, but I don't think this is a terrible idea. Can it really do any harm? I'm Jewish for crying out loud, so this isn't in the name of Christian values for me.

OK, 6 pages of posts, and not 1 mention of...

This is a case of the government trying to limit personal behavior!

Please keep people from killing me. Please maintain my roads, provide for my healthcare (heh), regualte business and international relations, and do the other basic necessities that allow a society to function.

But don't tell me what to do, when it is not required for one of your basic services above! Give me all the freedom to do what I want, unless it intrudes on someone else's freedom.

The ONLY argument here should be that abstinence training makes an obvious differnce to a society's health (a basic government function), but we know that's NOT the case. So should the argument end.

But does it?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc5.jpg

For the greater good of BL and his views on anything but the topic at hand.

Does Bush have the power of critical thinking?

Bad Idea (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041126/ap_on_go_pr_wh/second_term_abstinence)

Disregarding any emotional views on whether you want to see high school kids having sex, is there any way that this is not a terrible waste of money?
130 million dollars on abstinence education? I come from the midwest, bible-belt all the way, and kids are told by their parents from early on to wait for marriage, so how is this going to make any difference?

Not only is it a collosal waste of money, but it is dangerous in that it seeks to eliminate education on contraception, opening a broad door for teen pregnancy and STD's.

God, I hope this gets shot down. I'm sure he will include something about saving kittens in the bill, also. That way he can say that the next democratic candidate voted to promote teen sex and kitten murder.


He's a redneck. He's a farmboy, his daddy didn't have no money til after them boys was grown. Hell, just look at George Jr's brother down in Fla. Jeb is a crook from waaaay back. Everybody knows that. You want ta know why George Jr. does like he does, you look at where he came from. That boy's feathering him a nest with outside folks for later on. You cityfolks thinks too much, it ain't near as hard to reckon as you're tryin' ta make out. That family was dirt poor back in th' day, as the sayin' goes. He don't want ta be dirt poor no more and he don't really give a damn who goes down long as HE don't and his family don't. It's purely that simple. Bitch of it is, he's STILL better than that damned fence-settin' Kerry, that fella was just plain 'I say whatever ya want if it'll get me in that Oval Office. He had more waffles in him than Waffle House.
:gundge:

isnt masterbation cheating?
:mp5:

I'm forty-one, have been sexually active since I was 13 and I assure you, playing with yourself will NOT cause fur or whatever to grow on your fingers and palms, nor is it un-natural, nor is it cheating nor anything else that is negative.

(young fool)

Question, please, in the back.

What in the hell is the Kerry the waffler thing. What the hell is wrong with waffles and why do you need to put Kerry and waffles together!?!

Question, please, in the back.

What in the hell is the Kerry the waffler thing. What the hell is wrong with waffles and why do you need to put Kerry and waffles together!?!

We're out of butter.

Question, please, in the back.

What in the hell is the Kerry the waffler thing. What the hell is wrong with waffles and why do you need to put Kerry and waffles together!?!

Before you start to bitch, make sure you have a nice, strong command of the language being posted in. The word 'waffle' can also refer to a tendency to 'wobble' back and forth where decision making is concerned, or it can refer to an inability to remain firm in one's convictions.
:rolleyes:

Sex "SHOULD" be saved for whenever it's appropriate. I am currently 15 and celibate, but I must frankly say I wouldn't turn down a safe opportunity for it. Assuming I wasn't too embarrased... But I digress. The fact of the matter is that sex after marriage is a Christian ideal, not a human one. Hell, male humans can procreate at 10, and females whenever they being menstration. Biologically speaking, it is meant for whenever. Culturally speaking, it is for whenever an individual is ready, in my opinion.

No, Bush has Christian values. Not to be confused with American values.
and the majority of americans are what??? oh ya thats right god fearing christians, and it looks to me like you are just a horny kid that would get it from anything that you can stick it into

Before you start to bitch, make sure you have a nice, strong command of the language being posted in. The word 'waffle' can also refer to a tendency to 'wobble' back and forth where decision making is concerned, or it can refer to an inability to remain firm in one's convictions.
:rolleyes:


While you're still moaning about the pros and cons of education, I suggest you apply to re-enter fourth or fifth grade. That would be about the level that teaches you how to use words like 'waffle' in ways other than food-related.

and the majority of americans are what??? oh ya thats right god fearing christians, and it looks to me like you are just a horny kid that would get it from anything that you can stick it into

I'm not a christian. I'm pagan. Why the FUCK should I adhere to YOUR values? Speak for yourself and ONLY for yourself, ya little twerp.

Question, please, in the back.

What in the hell is the Kerry the waffler thing. What the hell is wrong with waffles and why do you need to put Kerry and waffles together!?!

John Kerry is such a weak-willed, spineless little shit that he would have been a WORSE choice. We had two BAD choices. We took the one that was slightly LESS BAD than the other one. Better an idiot than a rank coward.

I'm not a christian. I'm pagan. Why the FUCK should I adhere to YOUR values? Speak for yourself and ONLY for yourself, ya little twerp.
i am not speakin for your stupid ass, i am speakin for the majority of the country so if you would learn to read that would be helpful

John Kerry is such a weak-willed, spineless little shit that he would have been a WORSE choice. We had two BAD choices. We took the one that was slightly LESS BAD than the other one. Better an idiot than a rank coward.

And stop him from pissing on our nation like stopping an untrained puppy from going potty on the best couch in the house. It's a good comparison. Just don't get the idea he's actually in charge. He's not. No president is. The American political structure has a lot of nice little checks and balances built in to prevent someone like, say, Bush, from doing so much damage in his eight years in office that the guy after him can't fix it.

i am not speakin for your stupid ass, i am speakin for the majority of the country so if you would learn to read that would be helpful

Why should he adhere to the majority of the country's values?

Why should he adhere to the majority of the country's values?
he can do what he wants but the fact remains "american values" as he puts are commonly "christain values"... better read his quote

i am not speakin for your stupid ass, i am speakin for the majority of the country so if you would learn to read that would be helpful


The only person you can legitimately speak for is yourself. THAT is guarenteed by the American Bill of Rights and the American Constitution. I can read. That jumped up assumption of your's that you were what? Chosen to speak for the rest of us? was dead WRONG.

Get over yourself.

What a fucking moron.



That's America for you.

The only person you can legitimately speak for is yourself. THAT is guarenteed by the American Bill of Rights and the American Constitution. I can read. That jumped up assumption of your's that you were what? Chosen to speak for the rest of us? was dead WRONG.

Get over yourself.
you are an ignorant moron, i am not assuming anything look it up, unless of course you think it is a conspiracy or some stupid shit, but that fact remains the majority of united states citizens are christian, apprentally you are not one of the majority, and i am not speakin for you, if i was you would be sayin somthin completely different

he can do what he wants but the fact remains "american values" as he puts are commonly "christain values"... better read his quote

Gee, which sect would that be? You are aware that Christian views vary widely, right? All Christians are not the same, hence to say that American values are Christian values in a sweeping statement is foolish.

Furthermore, why should the country be held to Christian values any more than various Middle Eastern nations should be held to Muslim values?

he can do what he wants but the fact remains "american values" as he puts are commonly "christain values"... better read his quote

He seems to believe he's got the right to speak for and thus represent the rest of the country. And as far as that 'commonly held' remark...I'd say, probably, not nearly as much as most people would think. There's been a huge surge of the population who are, have been or who are considering converting to alternate religions. Probably at least a full third of the total number of Americans and that does not include the portion of the population that are born into other religions who are not, never have been and are highly unlikely to ever be, part of the christian faith.

That's America for you.

It's a failsafe for people who can't find anything logical to say. We tend to ignore it.

He seems to believe he's got the right to speak for and thus represent the rest of the country. And as far as that 'commonly held' remark...I'd say, probably, not nearly as much as most people would think. There's been a huge surge of the population who are, have been or who are considering converting to alternate religions. Probably at least a full third of the total number of Americans and that does not include the portion of the population that are/are born into other religions who are not, never have been and are highly unlikely to ever be, part of the christian faith.
fine i am not speaking for you, feel better, the fact remains

he can do what he wants but the fact remains "american values" as he puts are commonly "christain values"... better read his quote

American Values have nothing to do with Christian values except that they occasionally overlap. American Values can be summed up in one easy sentence: American Values are that we have the freedom to say, do and worship as we please as long as such actions do not interfere with others' right to do the same, and we have the right to fight for that freedom.

That's it.

Hey Brooks, why don't you head back a page and look at my response.

fine i am not speaking for you, feel better, the fact remains


Commonly held is mostly what people THINK they know.
Commonly KNOWN is what people ACTUALLY know.

You're still way off base.

Dunno if I'll be back, tonight anyway. Later, guys.

Dunno if I'll be back, tonight anyway. Later, guys.

I hope everything comes out okay. :)

Gee, which sect would that be? You are aware that Christian views vary widely, right? All Christians are not the same, hence to say that American values are Christian values in a sweeping statement is foolish.

Furthermore, why should the country be held to Christian values any more than various Middle Eastern nations should be held to Muslim values?
well american values are wide sweeping are they not? depends totally on who you talk to, and i am not sayin what our countrys values should be held to(although i am a christain so...) it is the peoples choice on what their countrys value system should be based on isn't it?

So... peeps voted for bush because they were afraid of change, right?

:headbang: dammit! whats so bad about change? theres no way in hell things could get worse for the world than if bush stays in office. I dont feel like explaining, but i will if i am asked to. (even for the economy, if im not mistaken, doesnt bush give tax cuts to companies who outsource jobs?)

back on topic... if abstinence ed alone isnt working, then he should... notice, maybe? and change something?

in my fantasies...
:confused: :sniper:
^bush.....^me

So... peeps voted for bush because they were afraid of change, right?

:headbang: dammit! whats so bad about change? theres no way in hell things could get worse for the world than if bush stays in office. I dont feel like explaining, but i will if i am asked to. (even for the economy, if im not mistaken, doesnt bush give tax cuts to companies who outsource jobs?)

back on topic... if abstinence ed alone isnt working, then he should... notice, maybe? and change something?

in my fantasies...
:confused: :sniper:
^bush.....^me

mods rule

well american values are wide sweeping are they not? depends totally on who you talk to, and i am not sayin what our countrys values should be held to(although i am a christain so...) it is the peoples choice on what their countrys value system should be based on isn't it?

"Wide sweeping?" I have no idea what you mean by that. If you mean that Americans hold common values, then I might have to disagree. It seems that wherever you look, you'll find some people opposed to certain basics of our system. America is quite diverse in opinion right now, as are all nations. You suggest that America ought to hold Christian values because most Americans are Christian (source?), yet this doesn't take into account just how many different Christian viewpoints there are.l Many, for example, are quite opposed to forcing their views on others.

People will always determine a country's value system implicitly. When it begins to be done explicitly, it becomes a problem.

"Wide sweeping?" I have no idea what you mean by that. If you mean that Americans hold common values, then I might have to disagree. It seems that wherever you look, you'll find some people opposed to certain basics of our system. America is quite diverse in opinion right now, as are all nations. You suggest that America ought to hold Christian values because most Americans are Christian (source?), yet this doesn't take into account just how many different Christian viewpoints there are.l Many, for example, are quite opposed to forcing their views on others.

People will always determine a country's value system implicitly. When it begins to be done explicitly, it becomes a problem.

Did you miss the election results?

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli.

Ownage.

He's a redneck. He's a farmboy, his daddy didn't have no money til after them boys was grown. Hell, just look at George Jr's brother down in Fla. Jeb is a crook from waaaay back. Everybody knows that. You want ta know why George Jr. does like he does, you look at where he came from. That boy's feathering him a nest with outside folks for later on. You cityfolks thinks too much, it ain't near as hard to reckon as you're tryin' ta make out. That family was dirt poor back in th' day, as the sayin' goes. He don't want ta be dirt poor no more and he don't really give a damn who goes down long as HE don't and his family don't. It's purely that simple. Bitch of it is, he's STILL better than that damned fence-settin' Kerry, that fella was just plain 'I say whatever ya want if it'll get me in that Oval Office. He had more waffles in him than Waffle House.
:gundge:

You do know that George W. Bush was born and raised in New England, right? You are aware that the Bush family is one of the wealthiest in the nation and Prescott Bush, W's grandfather, was one of the most powerful men in America, right? I was almost convinced that you were a misinformed idiot talking out of your ass.


And the argument that Christian Values=Majority Values=American Values is just a load of bullshit. American values rely on the lack of authority and provide autonomy amongst its citizens. Saying that either Christian or majority values rules in America is just ignorance of America's past.

religious people are Anti-God bigots

Did you miss the election results?

What about them? Bush got about 50%, pretty standard, really. But, I suppose you want to trot that out as if he were some kind of relgious figure and everyone voted on Christian beliefs...sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm not buying that. There wasn't a landslide in any way, and the claim of a "mandate" is a joke.

Sex "SHOULD" be saved for whenever it's appropriate. I am currently 15 and celibate, but I must frankly say I wouldn't turn down a safe opportunity for it. Assuming I wasn't too embarrased... But I digress. The fact of the matter is that sex after marriage is a Christian ideal, not a human one. Hell, male humans can procreate at 10, and females whenever they being menstration. Biologically speaking, it is meant for whenever. Culturally speaking, it is for whenever an individual is ready, in my opinion.

No, Bush has Christian values. Not to be confused with American values.

Yet, if you had any brains whatsoever, you would no that an individual can't be ready for kids until they can support the kids, and law says you can't work until you are 14, and even then it is 18 hours a school week/40 hours a non school week until you are 16. No one can support a child on that.

I really despise Bush, but I don't think this is a terrible idea. Can it really do any harm? I'm Jewish for crying out loud, so this isn't in the name of Christian values for me.

Can it do harm?

Depends. Do you think increased rates of teen pregnancies and STDs constitutes harm?

you are an ignorant moron, i am not assuming anything look it up, unless of course you think it is a conspiracy or some stupid shit, but that fact remains the majority of united states citizens are christian, apprentally you are not one of the majority, and i am not speakin for you, if i was you would be sayin somthin completely different

Of course, the majority of Christians don't necessarily want to piss all over the Constitution by turning our country into a theocracy. That's only people like Bush and his cronies.

Abstinence education isn't a waste. Lets take a look at a few things.

Where are the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the country? Low income areas.

What else do you notice about these areas? Crappy school systems.

Teaching abstinence along with safe sex isn't a bad thing. Hell, that program is probably as successful as the reading programs in those areas.

After all, how do you get an STD without the S?

As for teaching Africa about abstinence, why not? Handing out condoms and such won't make a bigger dent. They are available over there and aren't used. You think those soldiers who go around raping that were mentioned are going to stop to put on a rubber?

What do I think is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy and the spread of STDs? X-Box.

abstinence programs are universal failures

Abstinence education isn't a waste. Lets take a look at a few things.

Where are the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the country? Low income areas.

What else do you notice about these areas? Crappy school systems.

Teaching abstinence along with safe sex isn't a bad thing. Hell, that program is probably as successful as the reading programs in those areas.

After all, how do you get an STD without the S?

As for teaching Africa about abstinence, why not? Handing out condoms and such won't make a bigger dent. They are available over there and aren't used. You think those soldiers who go around raping that were mentioned are going to stop to put on a rubber?

What do I think is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy and the spread of STDs? X-Box.Gimme a break, you don't think that crap has already been tried? It didn't work then and it's a waste of money because it won't work now.

In the immortal words of Whoopi Goldberg "Teenagers are gonna fuck, it feels good."

Any program to reduce pregnancy or STD's needs to take that as a given right from the start and work from there. Abstinence is against our instincts and thus a losing battle.

I don't know about you, but I'm no rhesus monkey. I can control my urges.

Want to know why its crap to say "they are going to fuck anyway"? Because they look for attractive mates. Animals acting on base instinct don't do that. They just look for a fertile partner and go.

We humans have the ability to be selective, so don't give me that "instinct" crap.

If somebody kills his neighbor to take his new car, do you say he was just acting on instinct?

Teenagers also like to drink, but are you against telling them the best solution is not to drink?

I'm not saying don't give a complete sexual education. I'm saying that abstinence is part of that.

Abstinence education isn't a waste. Lets take a look at a few things.

Where are the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the country? Low income areas.

What else do you notice about these areas? Crappy school systems.

Teaching abstinence along with safe sex isn't a bad thing. Hell, that program is probably as successful as the reading programs in those areas.

After all, how do you get an STD without the S?

As for teaching Africa about abstinence, why not? Handing out condoms and such won't make a bigger dent. They are available over there and aren't used. You think those soldiers who go around raping that were mentioned are going to stop to put on a rubber?

What do I think is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy and the spread of STDs? X-Box.For the record, the highest rates of STD and teen pregnancy int he US are in areas that are not only poor, but that use abstinence only sex education. Look--I've got a 14 year old daughter, and she's not sexually active yet, but she's physically mature, and she could conceivably become active at any time, no matter how much her mother and I hope she waits. Forewarned is forearmed, and I'll be damned if I'll take a chance with her health by not providing her every all the information I can and all the tools she needs to stay healthy.

That was my point. The problem isn't abstinence education. Its incomplete education.

You do point out to your daughter that the best way to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex right?

I don't know about you, but I'm no rhesus monkey. I can control my urges.

Want to know why its crap to say "they are going to fuck anyway"? Because they look for attractive mates. Animals acting on base instinct don't do that. They just look for a fertile partner and go.

We humans have the ability to be selective, so don't give me that "instinct" crap.

If somebody kills his neighbor to take his new car, do you say he was just acting on instinct?

Teenagers also like to drink, but are you against telling them the best solution is not to drink?

I'm not saying don't give a complete sexual education. I'm saying that abstinence is part of that.Grow up.

The instinct I was refering to is a fact. Humans are one of the few animals that have sex for pleasure. That's because we lost the ability to percieve ovulation during our evolution. To compensate, nature made sex so pleasurable we'd want to do it whenever possible.

You're fighting human instinct, you're gonna lose.

You can fight instinct. It isn't easy, but its possible.

You fight instinct to live in society.

Your insinct tells you to go have sex with that woman right now.

Your instinct tells you to get that food right now.

We can control our base urges.

Now, people do choose to have sex. I have no problem teaching teenagers about protection. Abstinence just happens to be one form of protection.

Abstinence education isn't a waste. Lets take a look at a few things.

Where are the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the country? Low income areas.

What else do you notice about these areas? Crappy school systems.

Teaching abstinence along with safe sex isn't a bad thing. Hell, that program is probably as successful as the reading programs in those areas.

After all, how do you get an STD without the S?

As for teaching Africa about abstinence, why not? Handing out condoms and such won't make a bigger dent. They are available over there and aren't used. You think those soldiers who go around raping that were mentioned are going to stop to put on a rubber?

What do I think is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy and the spread of STDs? X-Box.


You miss the point entirely. Bush is pushing for abstinence-only education. Now, I am all for including abstinence in sex-ed. In fact, there's no way not to include it and be thorough. It's not like you're going to tell kids that they are required to have sex.

However, telling them "don't do it, the end" is just asking for high teen pregnancy and STD rates. Some teens are going to have sex, so while we should certainly impress upon them that it is a big deal and one they should not enter into lightly, we should prepare them for the instance (that will happen) that they decide (properly or not) that they are ready.

We tell teens not to drink alcohol, but does that mean that we don't teach that drunk driving is especially bad? Does it mean that we shouldn't teach about alcohol poisoning, the symptoms, how serious it is, and where to go for treatment?

I was responding to the people who were saying abstinence was a waste.

Like I said, I want complete education, with heavy parental involvement.

You can fight instinct. It isn't easy, but its possible.

You fight instinct to live in society.

Your insinct tells you to go have sex with that woman right now.

Your instinct tells you to get that food right now.

We can control our base urges.

Now, people do choose to have sex. I have no problem teaching teenagers about protection. Abstinence just happens to be one form of protection. :rolleyes: You're not gonna let go of that bone are you?

Humans are social creatures, so you're off on that one.

As for the others, sure you can control your urges but they're not gonna go away and sooner or later most succumb. We're wired that way to guarateed the survival of the species.

Abstinance programs just don't work. Sure you can keep them in a balanced education program, but you better have a lot more than that for the program to have any degree of success. But that's not what the programs our taxes are being wasted on are doing. They are preaching abstinance, cold and simple, bottom line. That's just not gonna work.

It's been repeated but I'll say it. Abstinence is indeed best taught as merely one option. It is a miserable failure when it's taught as the only option of preventing pregnancy and STDs.

Abstinence does not eliminate sexual desires. It merely suppresses and sets aside that desire, leaving it to build up unless released by one means or another.

While fictional, Stevenson's The Strange Case of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde is a parable and a warning on the dangers of artificially suppressing some of the more natural and primal instincts of man.

In something much more grounded in real life, the Catholic Child Molestation scandals serve as a warning to the world to what happens when sexual urges are forced to be contained as an evil thing instead of being allowed to vent out. From what I seem to understand, Catholic priests are not allowed to indulge in sexual relations or to even marry.

Short of castration chemical or physical, sexual urges will continue to build up until at one particularly bad moment in one's life it takes control like Mr. Hyde and screws up a whole lot of lives besides your own.

When it is supplemented with realistic sexual precautions, abstinence is an effective method of preventing pregnancy and STDs. On its own, it's turning a whole lot of Jeckylls into potential Hydes.