NationStates Jolt Archive

When, if ever, will we meet intelligent beings from another planet? Is there life somewhere else?

Never and No....If by some odd chance there is life out there besides us it will look just like us...

They exist somewhere very, VERY far away. Or on another plane of existence.

there might be life, but it will never reach us.

Is life not interesting enough for you on this planet? Really, I don't see why people are so obsessed with extra-terrestrial organisms. The conditions of life on a planet are so specific that the probability that another planet spawns life is very low. And, more importantly, when do you think humans will get intergalactic transportation? Not before we blow ourselves up! Competition will prevent any other intelligent or sentient life from leaving their own solar system, most likely. Assuming that there is any more. But, I swear, you alien-freaks are just weird in your obsessions.

A long time ago...
In a galaxy far far away

Seriously though (NOT!) why would any adavanced culture capable of traversing the distance it would take to reach us want to have anything to do with a species as violent and self-obsessed as Homo Sapiens sapiens? Other than possibly having a reality show about how not to act in the universe at large.

I realize the distance problem is possibly something that could be overcome by some means we haven't devised as of yet, but still. We can't even get along with eachother. Who would want us mingling with their species that have overcome the problems we haven't yet? Other than myself and the other (mostly) enlightened beings on the NS forum :D

Now it is entirely possible, IMHO, we'll wind up with alien overlords a-la Battlefield Earth and the Psychlos, but I expect a public first contact would be more along the lines of The Day The Earth Stood Still (Klatu Verata Niktu, y'all).

(my 100th post! woo-hoo!)

But, I swear, you alien-freaks are just weird in your obsessions.


Excuse us for actually stopping and pondering "why." Is it wrong to want to meet another life form? If you are happy with complete and utter human isolation then so be it. Don't berate someone for being a tad bit more open minded than you'll ever be.

OF COURSE THERES LIFE OUT THERE!!!

Im try to be as logical as possible in all aspects of life and so far so good, I CAN TAKE IT! But its foolish to assume theres no life out there when we know there are billions upon billions of stars and infinitely more that we dont even know of, so of course one of those has matter orbiting at the right distance to produce life! You dont have to assume that theres life in our near vicinity as advanced as us, and we probably never will see green men in flying saucers advanced far beyond us, but odds are its there...somewhere...in a galaxy far, far away... :eek:

(By the way, it's quite self-centered to assume we're they only ones consciously alive based on those facts...are you nervous about something?)

I think there is life out there... and the First Invasion will actually be a good event in the long-run,allowing us to meld together to get rid of the Formi...Bugge..Aliens. Yes. Aliens.

A long time ago...
In a galaxy far far away

Seriously though (NOT!) why would any adavanced culture capable of traversing the distance it would take to reach us want to have anything to do with a species as violent and self-obsessed as Homo Sapiens sapiens? Other than possibly having a reality show about how not to act in the universe at large.

I realize the distance problem is possibly something that could be overcome by some means we haven't devised as of yet, but still. We can't even get along with eachother. Who would want us mingling with their species that have overcome the problems we haven't yet? Other than myself and the other (mostly) enlightened beings on the NS forum :D

Now it is entirely possible, IMHO, we'll wind up with alien overlords a-la Battlefield Earth and the Psychlos, but I expect a public first contact would be more along the lines of The Day The Earth Stood Still (Klatu Verata Niktu, y'all).

(my 100th post! woo-hoo!)
I only quoted you because of my signature.

I'll go with Sagan on this. Stastically life not only should have happened, it should have happened several times. Also, statistically, it is not likely that any of it will run into each other.

Our tendancy to fetishise the 'other' creates the notion that the aliens will have a wisdom beyond us or some lesson that we can learn, but just as likely they could have just as many faults and advantages as humans, it's a crap shoot. Even if they advanced enough to make travel this far possible.

Narratively, however, that is interesting and a good tool, so we'll continue to see that in fiction.

Its amazing that people can KNOW that there are an almost infinite number of planets out there and not think that its possible that something else could have evolved, especialy for the non-creationists.
If life on Earth is pure coincidence, then how is it not possible that a meteor with certain chemicals landed on a certain spot on a certain planet, get this, OUTSIDE OF OUR SOLAR SYSTEM, which happens to have the right conditions to spawn single celled life.
Dont get me wrong, I dont think were going to be invaded/analy probled by monsters with tentacles for eyes, maybe most aliens are actually MORE primitive than us, maybe not. Maybe The Galactic Empire is fighting the Rebel Alliance as we speak and Earth is going to be used to test the new Death Star. Maybe (OMG!) the Aliens are absolutly fascinated by our culture and are on their way now to demand we start broadcasting the Three Stooges and MASH on a regular basis again, maybe the President of the Galaxy is coming to demand that Douglas Adams pay him royalties for the use of the name of his drink and his own name.
Its a pretty freakin' big place, our Universe.

Back of an Asimov paperback short story collection I was reading this week:

"ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN

and probably will

RIGHT HERE ON EARTH".

I remembered it for some reason when I first saw this thread, and I think the idea that was forming was that Earth, as much as we know, is like a wonderful little oasis in a pretty lifeless Solar system.

Sure, there might be Martian microbes, Europan sea creatures, Hell there could be living gas bags floating in the atmospheres of Jupiter or Saturn for all I know. I guess we're all thinking of 'meaningful' life - something we can relate to. Something if not equal to, than approximate to ourselves, to our human condition.

But such meaningful life might be exceedingly far away from us in time and space. It's an awfully big desert that stretches out from our little wet pond-planet.

Anyway, the phrase - 'Anything can happen, and probably will' made me think about all the different possibilities, all the ways in which the Earth might have been a changed place had past events turned out differently. I had this flash, that maybe what people see and describe as 'aliens' aren't aliens at all, maybe they're seeing peole from Earth. People from another Earth, an Earth where some other form of mammal, or marsupial, rose to the top of the food chain.

Wouldn't it be just too cool to get a little sample of 'alien' DNA and get it analyzed, only to find they're hyper-evolved mice, a la Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Heh heh heh.

Did I just think this or did I type it? Oh, I see the little words on the screen...never mind...

A long time ago...
In a galaxy far far away

Seriously though (NOT!) why would any adavanced culture capable of traversing the distance it would take to reach us want to have anything to do with a species as violent and self-obsessed as Homo Sapiens sapiens? Other than possibly having a reality show about how not to act in the universe at large.

I realize the distance problem is possibly something that could be overcome by some means we haven't devised as of yet, but still. We can't even get along with eachother. Who would want us mingling with their species that have overcome the problems we haven't yet? Other than myself and the other (mostly) enlightened beings on the NS forum :D

Now it is entirely possible, IMHO, we'll wind up with alien overlords a-la Battlefield Earth and the Psychlos, but I expect a public first contact would be more along the lines of The Day The Earth Stood Still (Klatu Verata Niktu, y'all).

(my 100th post! woo-hoo!)

Why must people constantly go back to the idea that intelligent life would disdain us for being violent. Do people forget that if there is somehow a chance that other lifeforms exist with the intelligence to create space travel then those beings are probably also violent or have tendencies the same as us? It's foolish to even delve into the idea of alien existence since we probably wont know anyways, until we ourselves can transverse the galaxy. Even then though, a new lifeform outside of our planet that is intelligent will be rare, since our species is a phenomena.

Also, please don't reference horrible sci-fi movies to our culture.

I had this other notion, just a gut feeling, I guess, that technology can really only take us so far, and maybe it won't take us far enough to get to other stars.

Well, scratch that, I think it probably would be possible - but the 'economic system of choice' so many NSers seem to believe in would never allow it to happen (unless there's a chance to install a Starbuck's in orbit of Vega, presumably).

Nonetheless...

the thought still persists that perhaps as we reach the limits of technology, we'll realize the limits that technologies (and our reliance upon them) have imposed limits upon US. Travelling through space and time might not require artifice, after all. It could be as simple as developing a new sense or faculty that would permit us to see spacetime as a single event, allowing us to move independently through it at will. No rockets, ro ramscoops, no generational ships, cryochambers, or other such contrivances.

It wouldn't be a question of belief, it would be evident to anyone capable of comprehending/expressing it. A new essential truth.

Anyway, I'm just ramblin' tonight, as you can see...

I'm really only going to talk about life that has an intelligence similar or greater to ours (because, let's face it, that's mostly what excites people). As Fermi's paradox has so much going for it, I'd say that it's likely that there's no intelligent aliens anywhere near us if they exist at all. And as for people who say the universe is so large and therefore there must be (intelligent) life there, that assumes we know something about the probability of (intelligent) life, of which we do not. Anyway, as Arthur C Clarke once said (paraphrased here) whether there exists alien life or not, either idea is staggering.

I was waiting for an aliens topic to arise (we've got pretty much all of the other "hot button" topics covered, so this was a natural)...

Anyways, I am a firm believer that alien life does exist...

I'm also one of those that doesn't think we'll ever get to see it, though...

It's a simple mathematical fact that life popped up somewhere else in this utterly immense universe of ours...

And I don't understand why people assume that conditions have to be the same as here on Earth for it to happen... Sure, that's probably the most conducive, but did it ever occur to anyone that the life here evolved to fit the environment, rather than "the environment was right, so life appeared"?

I mean, perhaps our atmosphere is a poison to some other life out there... Life here took what it could get, and it adapted to use this potentially poisonous mix of gases...

Life somewhere else might be set up with entirely different mechanisms, and using entirely different elements...

Basically, anything is possible... And there are (for all intents and purposes) an infinite number of places out there that it could happen... It's a falacy to think that it wouldn't...

The phrase "throw enough mud at a wall, and eventually, some of it will stick" comes to mind... Well, the universe has thrown a LOT of mud at the wall... Yes, most of it has fallen right off, but some of it had to stick (we're one of those lucky clumps...lol)

And to pacify the Religiously minded (pretty much the only ones who should have any claims against extraterrestrial life), why do you think that your God made all of this vast universe, to only meddle with this one little planet...?

I mean, if you think of Him as an artist, isn't he wasting an awful lot of canvas that way? I'd think that he'd be working in other places as well as here on Earth...

Why does our Bible not mention it, then? Why would God tell us that we're not His only creations? Well, since it's never specifically mentioned, it's just something he left out... He didn't lie, he just neglected to mention it to us...

Is that so hard to accept? I mean, do you really want to insult your God by saying that he could only handle this one planet? Or that he wasted all of that time to make billions more planets, but never use them for anything? Or that He can't spend his time on anything but babysitting us?

It seems to me that, just like evolution, this topic doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with Religious beliefs...

But anyways, yeah, life almost certainly exists out there... Most likely in all various forms of sophistication (some better than we are, some worse, some just the same, etc)... But I doubt they'll ever reach us, or that we'll ever reach them...

But here's an interesting thing to ponder (one that was semi-mentioned already, and even shot-down as bunk, but meh): Most of our movies involving aliens depict those aliens as big, nasty, human-killing monsters... But, what if we're actually the worst things out there? What if all other sentient life in the universe is less violent than we are? What if we're the "bad aliens"?

I don't think that's the case (like I said, there's probably an infinite range out there, with a huge curve towards our level, I'll explain in a bit), but it's kind of funny to consider it...

Like I mentioned above, I'd imagine that there's a huge curve towards our general level... After all, any weaker, and we'd be killed off, any more violent, and we'd kill ourselves off (faster than we are already, that is...lol), so basically, for life to stabilize, it has to come to roughly the same balance that we have here... Which should give a huge curve towards this general level... But that doesn't mean the other levels aren't possible, there might be plenty of overly-weak, or overly-strong beings out there...

When, if ever, will we meet intelligent beings from another planet? Is there life somewhere else?
Not in our lifetimes. Yes, there is.

Not in our lifetimes. Yes, there is.

Might it not happen within somebody's lifespan? Maybe someone living already?

That's always my problem, always a little too early or a little too late. Never right on time.

Might it not happen within somebody's lifespan? Maybe someone living already?

That's always my problem, always a little too early or a little too late. Never right on time.
Join the club! LOL!

I cant believe the Drake equation hasn't come up yet. Or maybe it has and I missed it. Anywhere here it is.

N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL

The equation can really be looked at as a number of questions:

N* represents the number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy

Question: How many stars are in the Milky Way Galaxy?
Answer: Current estimates are 100 billion.

fp is the fraction of stars that have planets around them

Question: What percentage of stars have planetary systems?
Answer: Current estimates range from 20% to 50%.

ne is the number of planets per star that are capable of sustaining life

Question: For each star that does have a planetary system, how many planets are capable of sustaining life?
Answer: Current estimates range from 1 to 5.

fl is the fraction of planets in ne where life evolves

Question: On what percentage of the planets that are capable of sustaining life does life actually evolve?
Answer: Current estimates range from 100% (where life can evolve it will) down to close to 0%.

fi is the fraction of fl where intelligent life evolves

Question: On the planets where life does evolve, what percentage evolves intelligent life?
Answer: Estimates range from 100% (intelligence is such a survival advantage that it will certainly evolve) down to near 0%.

fc is the fraction of fi that communicate

Question: What percentage of intelligent races have the means and the desire to communicate?
Answer: 10% to 20%

fL is fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations live

Question: For each civilization that does communicate, for what fraction of the planet's life does the civilization survive?
Answer: This is the toughest of the questions. If we take Earth as an example, the expected lifetime of our Sun and the Earth is roughly 10 billion years. So far we've been communicating with radio waves for less than 100 years. How long will our civilization survive? Will we destroy ourselves in a few years like some predict or will we overcome our problems and survive for millennia? If we were destroyed tomorrow the answer to this question would be 1/100,000,000th. If we survive for 10,000 years the answer will be 1/1,000,000th.

When all of these variables are multiplied together when come up with:

N, the number of communicating civilizations in the galaxy.


By this formula, current trhinking is there must be many civilisations evolvig . Un fourtunatly, many of the variables are little more than guesswork atm, so this is liable to change.

I cant believe the Drake equation hasn't come up yet. Or maybe it has and I missed it. Anywhere here it is.


By this formula, current trhinking is there must be many civilisations evolvig . Un fourtunatly, many of the variables are little more than guesswork atm, so this is liable to change.

Yeah...the variables listed are kinda surprising in some cases. I don't doubt there's 'meaningful' life other than our own in spacetime, but would interaction be a realistic expectation? I can only wonder, and who knows - ?

Hope?

I cant believe the Drake equation hasn't come up yet. Or maybe it has and I missed it. Anywhere here it is.


By this formula, current trhinking is there must be many civilisations evolvig . Un fourtunatly, many of the variables are little more than guesswork atm, so this is liable to change.
And there's the rub. That's why I believe that Fermi's paradox says more than Drake's equation with regards to the existence of intelligent extra-terristrials. But now that I come to think about it, the two can be used in concert to put a likely upperbound on N.

OK, what is Fermis' Paradox?

You have to wonder how many civilisations rose and fell during the time before us. I mean, the dinosaurs were around for millions of years and if human kind were to end tommorrow, thats about 5000 years worth of history. So on a timescale we are but a blip in otherwords, and other races could have already been and gone, before we even knew about it.

In short, where are they? (http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/cosmo/lectures/lec28.html)

In short, where are they? (http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/cosmo/lectures/lec28.html)

So, that goes to (almost) proof that wherever they be, they either don't have the means to travel effectively through space, or they are keeping a low profile?

So, that goes to (almost) proof that wherever they be, they either don't have the means to travel effectively through space, or they are keeping a low profile?

There are some millions of intelligent (or should I say "sentient") races in this galaxy alone. Most do not resemble anything like a human - the most common appearance would be more akin to an upright squid then a bipedal ape.

Who says they are keeping a low profile? Because you don't hear about it? How much looking do you do? How much of the "oh its a hoax" traffic do you figure is someone trying not to tell you something?

As for the limit to speed - it was once believed the "sound barrier" would never be broken. Further back, it was believed if someone travelled in a train, they would be flung to the back and destroyed, crushed.

Why does everyone believe that the speed of light is some sort of barrier? Because of bad math that Einstein himself made into bad math because the ramifications of what he had stated mathematically were mindboggling?

There are some millions of intelligent (or should I say "sentient") races in this galaxy alone. Most do not resemble anything like a human - the most common appearance would be more akin to an upright squid then a bipedal ape.


You seem rather well informed. How did you come by this knowledge?

Heres an interesting read if your interested in a Christian viewpoint

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c028.html

You seem rather well informed. How did you come by this knowledge?


Yeah, come clean. Which are you? the upright squid? Or the ... monkey brain eating giant blue pebble bird of Qaonfhellus Major?

Despit the slim odds of the coditions for life being present, there is enough out there that the odds are in the favor of life devoloping elsewhere, even if it is so far away as to not matter.

I think that it is certain that humans will meet another form of intelligent life. Someone mentioned Asimov in an earlier post, which is what I'd return to. I say that the first intelligent non-human we meet will be the first sentient machine. As for other intelligent life existing, it's a certainty. There's so many stars in the universe, and so many planets to have life that it just wouldn't be possible that we have developed in isolation. Whether we are near any of that life is another matter, but it's certainly there.

And for the people who wonder why we want to meet other life? It's human nature. We're a social species. We need contact to survive. And since we are sentient, we can become dis-satisfied and want for more. We want intelligent life because it will give us something else to talk to. We want it to be alien because we've been talking to ourselves for thousands of years and it's getting boring, because we only have so many opinions. (of course, none of us would remember conversations of one thousand years ago, but the important opinions were noted, and now we want more. Just for proof, I'll take the machine example again. One of the tests for sentience is the Turing test.(unless I am mistaken.) it involves asking unseen participants a series of questions. If the machine blends in perfectly and cannot be distinguished from the human responses, then some might suggest that the machine is at least partially sentient. The test is nowhere near perfect, and certainly not scientifically approved as "definitive" but it shows that with all the tests that could be done, the populist test is nothing more than a conversation.

A little bit OT there, but never mind.

Heres an interesting read if your interested in a Christian viewpoint

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c028.html

Oh the infallible logic of religion! I didn't know that christianity had a problem with extraterrestrial life though. But it makes sense. When did the church agree that the earth spins round the sun?