NationStates Jolt Archive

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

I very nearly despaired. But my view was that I should accept the truth, no matter how bad (still is… but I have a different concept of the truth now…). Have you ever been an Atheist?

We're alive. We're going to die.
Let's make the most of the time.
Atheists can still help other people and fight for equality etc. because they think it's the right thing to do, not because they think they're going to have eternal bliss as a result (not that every Athiest is so good), a point that seems to have been lost on many so-called 'religious' people (not that I'm accusing anyone here, of course).

I'm not an atheist, but isn't it just as absurd to claim that you know what happens after death just because someone wrote it in a book?

We're alive. We're going to die.
Let's make the most of the time.
Atheists can still help other people and fight for equality etc. because you want to and you think it's the right thing to do, not because you're going to have eternal bliss as a result, a point that seems to have been lost on many so-called 'religious' people (not that I'm accusing anyone here, of course).

Christianity is not just an insurence policy. We dont just do these things because we will get into heven. We do them becuase we love God and God told us to love others and so we do that.

We're alive. We're going to die.
Let's make the most of the time.
Atheists can still help other people and fight for equality etc. because you want to and you think it's the right thing to do, not because you're going to have eternal bliss as a result, a point that seems to have been lost on many so-called 'religious' people (not that I'm accusing anyone here, of course). I don't condemn atheists - I am not one, but I know what it's like. Most of my views haven't changed at all, in fact.

We're alive. We're going to die.
Let's make the most of the time.

That's a basic religious idea. I came up with all sorts of odd theories when I was an atheist. I also half-believed there was a God, and He was evil.

Is that what you think?

Atheists believe God doesn't exist... that talking about God's existance is pointless. So why would a person who does not believe, or have faith in a God, think about it's ramifications? I suppose they do, just like a Christian thinks 'What if I were a Muslim?'... But nothing can make a person have faith just like 'that'. I've been taught my whole life about Christianity, but without any faith, I think religion is a pointless waste of life and being taught about it, a waste of my time.

If you have faith, that's fine.

But your post was still incredibly ignorant.

I'm not an atheist, but isn't it just as absurd to claim that you know what happens after death just because someone wrote it in a book?

Not if said book is a historical account of the activity of God in the lives of those he revealed himself to (the Bible is far more than that though)

I'm not an atheist, but isn't it just as absurd to claim that you know what happens after death just because someone wrote it in a book? About 60 books, actually.

Neo Cannen, have you ever BEEN an atheist?

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.


I must say that the reason I treat others well and do good for others is a sense of empathy, not of divine compulsion.

As for god: there is no reasonable arguement for god's existence and nothing inside me compells me to believe that there is a god.

As for how I live my life with the solemn belief that there isnt a god:

Well, in the morning I wake up, sometimed even in anticipation of my alarm!
I get dressed, make a cup of tea and then get in my car and jet over to the university for classes. Evenings vary day-to-day.

Not believing in a god really doesnt impede my life or the joy of it.

As for an afterlife, it doesnt worry me.
Why? Because I dont remember a 'before life' so I have no reason to expect to continue on into an 'after life.'

Not if said book is a historical account of the activity of God in the lives of those he revealed himself to (the Bible is far more than that though)

Are you saying you can prove the bible is a factual historical account? If that's the case then why is anyone argueing?

Christianity is not just an insurence policy. We dont just do these things because we will get into heven. We do them becuase we love God and God told us to love others and so we do that.

Wow! Did God tell you to personally?

i find these threads very confusing

are you suggesting that i should PRETEND there is a god? that i should find some way to delude myself just so i might feel better about the meaninglessness of existance?

i am an atheist because there IS NO GOD

there is no way around that. i, and all of us, have to deal with it someway.

pretending isnt a good way

i find life a joy, even the hard parts. knowing that when i die that is all i get means i have to live NOW to the best of my abilities and not just drift until i die and get to the big show.

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.
What meaning does life after death give to life?
Why is it thought that activities that are not enjoyed have no meaning? (Is pleasure assumed to be the meaning of them?)
What do we need 'help' for after we are dead and gone?

the reason for living is to make more of us...that's it
look at butterflies, they live for a week and then dye having laid their eggs. they don't have time to do good things that human's are able to do in their lives, like helping others. what we do with our lives is what we believe to be morally (not religiously) right.

what's the point of making the most of your time if it's all for nothing. if there's no god then there us no purpose. we're just matter no different from rocks. so if i walked up to your mother and shot her in the chest, it would be no different than shooting a stump. and don't say it would matter because you love her, say it's because you have an instinctive attachment to her due to te fact that she provided for you when she was nursing you to adulthood.

Why must all 'loud' Christians think people can change what they beleive on a whim? I think i'll be walking on the ground tomorrow, and unless you have some extreme, serious proof, i'll still be thinking it tomorrow. Leave me be. Go ahead and think i'm going to hell because some guys wrote a bestseller that says i am, i cant stop you. Just dont turn up at my door.

what's the point of making the most of your time if it's all for nothing. if there's no god then there us no purpose.

No purpose that you're aware of.

Oh dear. I knew that Neo was going to be flooded with replies.

Well, as an ex-atheist, I can tell you that I did things because I believed them to be right. I believed in Christian concepts (because most of them are self-evidently moral, unless you're some kind of corporate politician), but not God.

I'm really glad, though, that I never got on to thinking about how morality might just be an illusion, if nothing moral could be proven wrong or right. That would probably have driven me insane.

I'm not an atheist, but isn't it just as absurd to claim that you know what happens after death just because someone wrote it in a book? Of coarse not! If that book is truth! And, since my Lord and Savior told me that book is truth, then I have no reason not to believe him! God speaks to man, and if you are not a Christian, then you have no valid grounds to say otherwise, for you have not expirienced the awesome love of Jesus Christ. Your point of reference of completely different, so I do not fault you for not believing the Bible is true, for Why would the most High God speak to you when you have shut your heart to him and closed your hears to his words. Until you realize that he is the one God, the true God and that Jesus, his son, is the only way to heaven, THAT is when God will devinely speak to you, and not before.

Is that what you think?

Atheists believe God doesn't exist... that talking about God's existance is pointless. So why would a person who does not believe, or have faith in a God, think about it's ramifications? I suppose they do, just like a Christian thinks 'What if I were a Muslim?'... But nothing can make a person have faith just like 'that'. I've been taught my whole life about Christianity, but without any faith, I think religion is a pointless waste of life and being taught about it, a waste of my time.

If you have faith, that's fine.

But your post was still incredibly ignorant.

My point was the ramifications of the non existance of God (as far as I can see) are that life has no meaning. So I wanted to ask if Atheists consider this when they take up their intelectual stance.

what's the point of making the most of your time if it's all for nothing. if there's no god then there us no purpose. we're just matter no different from rocks. so if i walked up to your mother and shot her in the chest, it would be no different than shooting a stump. and don't say it would matter because you love her, say it's because you have an instinctive attachment to her due to te fact that she provided for you when she was nursing you to adulthood.

Again the arrogant 'loud' Christian view that non-theists are unfeeling robots who have no conscience. Grow up.

There is meaning to life without God: to live. Being "good" is a relatively new phenomenon, much younger than any religion. It's all relative; 100 years ago it was considered "good" to own slaves. 1000 years ago it was considered "good" to stone people to death. 15000 years ago it was considered "good" to kill anyone who wasn't in your tribe. Now, it's "good" to be generous, forgiving and grateful for life. All these things are possible without a God.

Of coarse not! If that book is truth! And, since my Lord and Savior told me that book is truth, then I have no reason not to believe him!

Well a 6ft green bunny told me otherwise, and I don't even believe in 6ft green bunnies!

Oh dear. I knew that Neo was going to be flooded with replies.

Well, as an ex-atheist, I can tell you that I did things because I believed them to be right. I believed in Christian concepts (because most of them are self-evidently moral, unless you're some kind of corporate politician), but not God.

I'm really glad, though, that I never got on to thinking about how morality might just be an illusion, if nothing moral could be proven wrong or right. That would probably have driven me insane.


Morality cannot be proven wrong or right because it isnt a testable hypothesis, but rather a series of subjective opinions.

In my opinion, it is good not to do things which hurt others unless they are being done to prevent the harm of yet more people.

I dont claim that this is some sort of universal moral truth, it is just how I choose to live my life and judge and respond to the actions of others.

No problem there, no insanity or identity crisis or anything.

Why must all 'loud' Christians think people can change what they beleive on a whim?

I didnt think that, I just asked a question.

My point was the ramifications of the non existance of God (as far as I can see) are that life has no meaning. So I wanted to ask if Atheists consider this when they take up their intelectual stance.


So you want us to take up *your* opinion (that life without religion has no meaning) when making *our* intellectual, reasonable decisions?

what's the point of making the most of your time if it's all for nothing. if there's no god then there us no purpose. we're just matter no different from rocks. so if i walked up to your mother and shot her in the chest, it would be no different than shooting a stump. and don't say it would matter because you love her, say it's because you have an instinctive attachment to her due to te fact that she provided for you when she was nursing you to adulthood.
What is the purpose given to life by life-after-death?

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

You can most certainly enjoy yourself with no hope for an afterlife. i do not believe that there'll be anything past this life, and im quite comfortable with it, because if you make the most of your life, live morally(NOT religiously, mind you) and just try and be bright and happy, you have a ticket to a nice memory just before you die. thats well worth my time.
I live my life just like so many others, but without any belief that there is a higher, 'perfect', being, which either was the watchmaker or is manipulating us each and every day. I have a firm thought that i can make the most of anything, if i just try, and my lifes goals are success, family, and from those two combined, happiness. I dont see my life as a dull preparation for another one, i see it as a bright light that will burn out with time.

My point was the ramifications of the non existance of God (as far as I can see) are that life has no meaning. So I wanted to ask if Atheists consider this when they take up their intelectual stance.

So if you admit that your viewpoint is only "as far as I can see", why do you need atheists to agree to anything?

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life,


Yes ...?


then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves.


People might have overriding concerns due to their ethics or necessity, but enjoying life is a great advice.


What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life.


Didn't you just say life had no meaning (intrinscally)? You have to make your own.


Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power.

... because they're good? Sense of ethics?

You can't have x without God? Cut the presuppositionalist crap.


These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead?


How does god belief help you? Believing doesn't make it true.


Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living.


Seeing as we know this is only chance we have, it wouldn't be smart.


Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

Try to live up to my potential and live life to the fullest. After all, you only get one shot at it.

Being told of these "ramifications" of my views do not alter my perception of the world. A belief is not wrong simply because it is unpleasant. It would be good if it was - I could just believe away anything bad that happened to me. However, it does not appear to work like that.

My point was the ramifications of the non existance of God (as far as I can see) are that life has no meaning. So I wanted to ask if Atheists consider this when they take up their intelectual stance.

Because a person does not believe in an afterlife or see this life as a 'stage' does not mean that they see life with no meaning or purpose. The thought of living, dying and rotting doesn't scare me. The idea of a God existing doesn't sway me at all.

My reasons? I don't know what created life but abiogenesis is a possible explanation. And personally, nothing has made me feel I should believe in a God. I've had no numinous experiences and no attraction to any church. Everything that needs explaining, that I can think of, can be explained by science. Some things haven't been discovered, but that's due to a lack of human understanding. And I always thought if people like Pratchett and Tolkein can come up with their whole worlds and stories, why couldn't a bunch of guys, thousands of years ago, do the same?

Why are Christians Christians? Why not Hindu, or Muslim, or Jewish or Jedi followers? Is the Bible a more valid text that the holy text of said religions? Why do you dismiss all of the other gods?

My point was the ramifications of the non existance of God (as far as I can see) are that life has no meaning. So I wanted to ask if Atheists consider this when they take up their intelectual stance.

Considering myself somewhere on the borderline of being agnostic/atheist, yes I consider that life has no real meaning. We live, we love, we lose, we die. I do not understand why that is not good enough for some people. Who says there needs to be a meaning to life? People call atheists arrogant for their views, but believing that someone's life must have a higher purpose/meaning seems pretty arrogant to me.

I don't believe in God. I personally think that Christianity is laughable.

They're arguements are apalling, for example, "All Those People Can't Be Wrong." These people all thought the Earth was flat, and compared to other religions, there aren't ACTUALLY that many people. Hinduism is the largest religion in the world.

Also, Christianity is the second youngest religion (Sikhism being the youngest.) So could you not argue that they are right as they were there first?

And also, if there IS a God, wouldn't i have been killed by now for not believing in him?

As for Atheists not believing in life-after-death, that is a generalisation. I believe in life-after-death, just not yours. Also, Heaven and Hell are Relative. If a Sado-Masochist died, according to the bible, he would go to hell, yes? Well surely Hell for him would be Heaven, no?

Also, Christianity is the second youngest religion (Sikhism being the youngest.) So could you not argue that they are right as they were there first?





Um... christianity - AD 1 - AD ~350 as date of founding.
Islam ~ AD 600
Sikhism AD 1500

They're arguements are apalling, for example, "All Those People Can't Be Wrong." These people all thought the Earth was flat,..
..
Also, Christianity is the second youngest religion (Sikhism being the youngest.) So could you not argue that they are right as they were there first?..
..
And also, if there IS a God, wouldn't i have been killed by now for not believing in him?


I'd have to point out most Christians don't use the silly arguments and that being young doesn't necissarily make you wrong. Im am not familiar with the Christian take on non-believers, but weren't they supposed to kill the heathens?

Doesn't heathen look suspiciously like heaven...

Um... christianity - AD 1 - AD ~350 as date of founding.
Islam ~ AD 600
Sikhism AD 1500

Not only that, but Judaism is younger than Christianity, being the basis for it and all.

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death

Ever heard of reincarnation? That would be a possible case of [no God+life after death] so you can't really assert that there would necessarily not be life after death without the existence of God.

and no meaning to life,

Why not? You give the meaning to your own life, whether by choosing to accept Christ into your life or by working hard and becoming wealthy.
(This is not meant to imply that being wealthy and accepting Christ are mutually exclusive)

then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves.

Oh dear. Why is my life wasted if I do not spend my time "enjoying myself"? Even if there is no God, you are still able to contribute to the survival of the species.

What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life.

See earlier responses.

Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power.

We could have just made them for the purpose of stabilising our societies as they grew larger.

These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead?

Death is not bad. It is an integral part of life. It will happen to all of us, in one way or another. Be honest with yourself.

Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living.

Probably because they choose to do so.

I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

Uh..oh. I think you will come to regret asking that question once certain posters find this thread.

Um... christianity - AD 1 - AD ~350 as date of founding.
Islam ~ AD 600
Sikhism AD 1500
Add Zoroastrianism ~6000 BC ;)

Add Zoroastrianism ~6000 BC ;)


If you see what I quoted when I posted that you'll notice that I was just correcting somone who said "christianity is the second youngest religiong, sikhism being the youngest."

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life,

If there is no God, life still has whatever meaning it has.



then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do

No. Plus, i think you surely mean millions or billions?

that means they are not enjoying themselves.

Er, what? People enjoy themselves a lot of the time, God or no God.

What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life.

What possible meaning to life is there WITH a belief in the afterlife? Oh gee, nothing in life matters because we're immortal and we'll live forever, in heaven? I mean as long as we believe the Correct Belief. Doesn't sound much more meaningful than the alternatives.

Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power.

Hmmm... ourselves?

These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead?

Well, your occasionally arrogant belief in God's existence may make you feel warm and fuzzy now, but how does warmth and fuzziness help you when you are dead?

For that matter, why does how much help we get when we're dead, matter?

Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living.

It is NOT logical that no God = life is meaningless. Get over yourself. You talk about arrogance of atheists, yet here you are so absolutely 100% certain that atheists have no meaning in their lives... and that you do...

Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code.

Only by your own religion, which is obviously Christianity or some other proselytizing [sp] religion.

At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter).

At the end of life is death. Death usually involves rigor mortis and decomposition. I hope I'm not being too abstract here.

I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

Atheism means "lack of belief in God," not "belief that there is no God." There IS a difference. To a Christian who defines only the Christian God as God, all Muslims are by definition atheists. But they hardly believe that there is no God, do they?

How about this, how do you live your life? Nevermind, I don't want to know, nor do you want to know the answer to your questions. Since you answered them yourself in the asking and allow no room for logical debate. But I guess since logic doesn't help you when you're dead, that doesn't matter either?

But I guess since logic doesn't help you when you're dead, that doesn't matter either?

Correct. Food will not help us when we're dead, so we shouldn't...wait a minute... :D

I should probably mention that views don't have ramifications, actions do.

I should probably mention that views don't have ramifications, actions do.
Well, they do in the sense that they shape your actions, your decisions of what to do.

I should probably mention that views don't have ramifications, actions do.

I believe he's talking about logical ramifications. Like the slippery slope argument. And yes, just because there are logical ramifications it doesn't necessarily mean that there are ramifications in the physical world.

I believe he's talking about logical ramifications. Like the slippery slope argument. And yes, just because there are logical ramifications it doesn't necessarily mean that there are ramifications in the physical world.

Well, I never assumed that illogical ramifications existed, just that they had to involve hypothetical actions, rather than beliefs.

I was merely pointing out what, to the best of my knowledge, was the misuse of a word. I understand the intended meaning though.

Not only that, but Judaism is younger than Christianity, being the basis for it and all.

What is Chirsitanity name CHRISTianity. Its kind of a given that it as a religion begins when Christ came but its age doesnt mean very much in terms of its validity.

what's the point of making the most of your time if it's all for nothing. if there's no god then there us no purpose. we're just matter no different from rocks. so if i walked up to your mother and shot her in the chest, it would be no different than shooting a stump. and don't say it would matter because you love her, say it's because you have an instinctive attachment to her due to te fact that she provided for you when she was nursing you to adulthood.
and if i walked up to YOUR mother and shot her in the chest, killing her, you would REJOICE because as a believing christian i have just sent her to her eternal reward and she is in heaven with jesus and the angels.

doesnt make any more sense that way does it.

and if i walked up to YOUR mother and shot her in the chest, killing her, you would REJOICE because as a believing christian i have just sent her to her eternal reward and she is in heaven with jesus and the angels.

doesnt make any more sense that way does it.

So how does it make sense for you, Ashmoria? Just curious about your belief system and all.

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

I'm not Atheist in the sense that I denounce and existence of God. I prefer to classify myself as an Agnostic, meaning I don't believe you can prove the existence of a God as you know him, but at the same there, possibility of there a God, and most likely not in the traditional sense (I.E. The God that the Holy Bible and scriptures speak of.), possibility still exists.

There are many, MANY things about this universe that we DO NOT KNOW. This itself warrants the ideals that there may not be a God as we know it after all. I've seen these posts recently about, how can we live without a "meaning of life". In my opinion, there is no "God", and if there is, it is something we never thought of or have the knowledge to comprehend.

All opinions aside, I know one thing above all, we are here. I am currently wrapping up high school. I am conscious, I am aware, I have obligations, business, and general activities to take care of. I spend my time focusing on what needs to be done now, and focus on what I need to do for a secured future. Most of the time, there is no need for me to think about what will happen after my life has expired. I have no desire to praise and worship something, that if you use logic, very well could not exist. People who want to answer these questions should spend time researching scientific areas that would help to explain why we, and everything else came about. I do not need aa meaning or a reason that exists beyond my life, and reasonable existence, for me to live.

A few quotes from you:

These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead?

If there is no God, and no afterlife, then it's quite obvious, (If you spell correctly) intellectualism, doesn't help after you after your life is over. But your thoughts and ideals carry on to those whom are still alive. These principals can guide people, and help them give a wider perspective of life as we know it. The world does not revolve around individuals, but using intelligence now, and studying areas of how we came into existence, helps the future. It helps more than just yourself. It's about helping life, and humanity itself.

That's all I have for now, you can debate my statements with the usual rhetoric many of you tend to use. I will respond after I get home in a few hours from our family's annual Turkey dinner.

And in any rebuttal to my statements and opinions, please use a spell-checker, or please proof-read your post, before you submit it.

About 60 books, actually.

I guess it's impossible for sixty people to lie, then. AND many of the books were written by the same people. I guess all of those people who follow other religions that have books and books written about them must be right too.

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power.

There is a very simple explanation. Evolution not only work on physiology - it can work on cultures. An ant isn't going to eat its queen, cause that would hurt the colony even if in the short term, it helps that particular ant. In the end, ants just try to do the best for their colony.

A mother that does not educate well her children will see them die quickly. Someone who cares only about himself won't integrate in the tribe and will eventually die, cause it's hard to survive alone.

All of these reasons brought the notion of good and evil that men have.

But thinking that doesn't make me deny morality. The same way you cannot judge a theory by judging its funder, you cannot say moral values should not be followed because they weren't created by God. I follow moral values not because God told me to, nor because I want to go to heaven, but because I want to bring more happiness than harm to the people around me, and because I want to leave a better world than the one I came in.
Being happy during my life is also a goal, but I don't want to be a happy animal. Even if I am atheist (not athieist) I have some human feelings too ;)... I want to be free, I have dreams that I want to realize etc.


These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

I don't have beliefs to help when I'm dead, I have beliefs because I believe in them, period. If the only reason you believe in God is to feel secure about afterlife, you should seriously reconsider your faith.
Finally, I've lived with christians and other atheists, and seriously, found no real differences. Many christians are assholes, just like are many atheists. The way they live their lives depends on their personality more than on their faith in my opinion.

As being agnostic myself, I don't need to defend athiests but your obvious bashing is quite uncalled for. The point of life is to live and enjoy yourself; to accomplish your goals; to be free. Life is not a test to see where you go afterwards. We aren't here to serve some greater purpose. Stopping wasting your life trying to satisfy a being you don't know exist and enjoy it while it lasts.

I guess it's impossible for sixty people to lie, then. AND many of the books were written by the same people. I guess all of those people who follow other religions that have books and books written about them must be right too.
What about all the books that were left out because people felt they didn't fit with the flow of the rest of the Bible? What about all the corruption of those books that has taken place since they were written, mainly by politicians who sought personal gain, or by translators who let their own opinions shine through?

So how does it make sense for you, Ashmoria? Just curious about your belief system and all.
ut o
how does what make sense? the nonsense i just said to Reformed Hotelfians?

im fine with answering you im just not sure what you are asking?

ut o
how does what make sense? the nonsense i just said to Reformed Hotelfians?

im fine with answering you im just not sure what you are asking?

Basically I'm asking what position you take on the same scenario of walking up to someone's mother and shooting her. Would you do it? Why or why not? What system of morality/ethics do you have and how does it apply to the hypothetical situation?

what's the point of making the most of your time if it's all for nothing. if there's no god then there us no purpose. we're just matter no different from rocks. so if i walked up to your mother and shot her in the chest, it would be no different than shooting a stump. and don't say it would matter because you love her, say it's because you have an instinctive attachment to her due to te fact that she provided for you when she was nursing you to adulthood.

I love when this kind of extremists come up. You just proved you have absolutely no sense of moral and you are the reason why some people need religion - they are too sick to ever reach the responsability of an adult, they will always need a God looking at them, giving prizes or punitions. Or get out of control.

NB: I know that he represents a little minority. This was not a generality about religious.

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life,

Bzzzzt. Non sequitur.

I deny that the non existence of God means there is no meaning to life.

Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power.

Most Christians who think they do “good deeds” are liars and they know it. For example: they knowingly buy products made in sweatshops because to have anything other than name brand would make them unpopular – or, some say, it’s just too inconvenient.

Besides, Christianity is the biggest excuse for sinning ever created. Incase you haven’t noticed most Christians, by and large, act thusly: they engage in pre-marital sex as much as Atheists do and don’t think anything of it because “God will forgive them”. Basically, any bad deed you do can be forgiven so most Christians don’t give sincere effort (although many – if not all of them – lie to themselves [and others] and say they do).

So, as you can see, Christianity is defeating it’s own purpose.

Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living.

“Meaning for your actions can only come from others.” – that’s what you’re essentially saying; or, as heard on farms, “Baa, baaa, baaaa”….

I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

The same way people did prior to the Judaic religions came to their lands (and there tends to be a huge, huge gulf between “traditional” religions and Judaic religions) – realistically.

Christianity is not just an insurence policy. We dont just do these things because we will get into heven. We do them because we love God and God told us to love others and so we do that.

That’s an OBVIOUS lie – history has proven that. If God told you that, in order to go to heaven, you had to kill someone, would you? You would – if you say “no” you’re a liar.

Not only that but you show people “Christian love”; a concept that seems to be awfully ephemeral and convenient for whatever situation you’re in.

Really, Neo, you are not original at all. Your “point” (which really is just the topic of Nihilism) is trite, old, and boring. Nietzsche discoursed on it quite a bit. Sartre did, too. Really, a simple search on google will bring up a mountain of relevant information.

if there's no god then there us no purpose.

If there is a god there is no purpose – you’re just doing what you’re told. You’re attempting to be a robot and curse yourself for not being mechanical. Atheism gives life purpose.

I believed in Christian concepts (because most of them are self-evidently moral, unless you're some kind of corporate politician),

Moral concepts can’t be “self-evident” without a deity. Morality is a concept, one that has been proven to be quite counterproductive to it’s own goals.

Again the arrogant 'loud' Christian view that non-theists are unfeeling robots who have no conscience. Grow up.

A conscience is ingrained, not natural. A simple tour through a history book – hell, even current events prove this.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking ALL atheists are humanists like you – many of us have rejected Christianity in it’s entirety – not just in a symbolic ways.

All of these reasons brought the notion of good and evil that men have.

Woah, wait a second. Good and Evil are NOT natural concepts. Certainly pre-Judaic religions had values, but they didn’t go as far as Dualism. Really, where on earth did you pull that concept from?

Because God is a human creation, and like all human creations, it works until it breaks, in this case, god becomes disfunctional when you die,since there is no life after death, and therefore no god after death, at least not for you.

That's all I have for know, you can debate my statements with the usual rhetoric many of you tend to use. I will respond after I get home in a few hours from our family's annual Turkey dinner.

Now, Har Land, I'm all for a little grammar and spelling pedantry, but it does make one look silly (not to mention arrogant) if one makes basic errors whilst castigating others for theirs. Just looking at this one little paragraph, one can see that you have used "know" erroneously (instead of "now"), and also that your use of the comma in the first line is incorrect - it should be, depending on your preferred style and precise implication, either a full stop or semicolon, or possibly a dash. Perhaps you could proof-read your posts in future?

And I really hope I haven't made any mistakes myself...

Woah, wait a second. Good and Evil are NOT natural concepts. Certainly pre-Judaic religions had values, but they didn’t go as far as Dualism. Really, where on earth did you pull that concept from?
Zoroastrianism (http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm) created dualism - Ahura Mazda vs. Angra Mainyu.

Basically I'm asking what position you take on the same scenario of walking up to someone's mother and shooting her. Would you do it? Why or why not? What system of morality/ethics do you have and how does it apply to the hypothetical situation?

Ashmoria was giving a what-if situation.

You incorrectly assume that this means Ashmoria would actually do it.

And as an answer: As Atheists do not believe in an afterlife, why in the blue HELL would they want to spend their mortal life in a jail cell?

Not exactly making the most of the possibilities if ya ask me.

Basically I'm asking what position you take on the same scenario of walking up to someone's mother and shooting her. Would you do it? Why or why not? What system of morality/ethics do you have and how does it apply to the hypothetical situation?
o
well im a very practical person
i wouldnt do it because i would have no reason to
because it would make me feel "icky"
because it would have no benefit to me
because it would potentially send me to jail or execution.

i try to not do stupid destructive pointless things. no real upside to it eh?

im not sure that afterlife-punishement is ANYONES primary reason for not killing someone. after all one can repent afterwards and still get into heaven.

Of coarse not! If that book is truth! And, since my Lord and Savior told me that book is truth, then I have no reason not to believe him!

This is a circular argument: God exists because the Bible says so; the Bible is true because God tells me so...

God speaks to man, and if you are not a Christian, then you have no valid grounds to say otherwise, for you have not expirienced the awesome love of Jesus Christ.

Or, in other words: if you have not heard voices in your head, you have no grounds to believe otherwise...

Your point of reference of completely different, so I do not fault you for not believing the Bible is true, for Why would the most High God speak to you when you have shut your heart to him and closed your hears to his words. Until you realize that he is the one God, the true God and that Jesus, his son, is the only way to heaven, THAT is when God will devinely speak to you, and not before.

So, you mean that once one has made a completely irrational decision based on precisely no evidence, God will then decide that this in some way makes one special and worthy of being spoken to? Have you considered that perhaps the reason that you hear the voice of God at this point is because you want to?

Ashmoria was giving a what-if situation.

Yes...

You incorrectly assume that this means Ashmoria would actually do it.

You just incorrectly assumed that I assumed something. If I had assumed she would do it, I would not have posted this:

Would you do it?

And so we move on...

And as an answer: As Atheists do not believe in an afterlife, why in the blue HELL would they want to spend their mortal life in a jail cell?

Not exactly making the most of the possibilities if ya ask me.

That's lovely, but I wasn't asking you, I was asking Ashmoria.

*Yawn*

Not only do I detest being grouped with others, as Atheists' views on life differ far more than any pathetic squabbling denominations of actual religions, but I loathe the implications that I haven't actually thought through my philosophy.

As a person with an extremely high level of intelligence and OCD, I assure you I've thought more about the meaning of life than anyone on this thread combined. I'd say I've probably wasted 20% of my life gleaning and cultivating and combining and analyzing the views of others, from all dogmas, philosophies, sciences, and religions.
Simply put, "STFU n0ob!!1 I 4m t3h 1337 h4x0or uv 7HoV6hT!!1"

Also, you might like to know that the retort to existential nihilists insinuating suicide is not only entirely very "un-Christian" (as if Crusades and voting conservative weren't), but simply antithetical, as your personal dogma taken to actual serious and logical ends would demand self-sacrifice and suicide far more than mine would. Furthermore, the world needs intelligence and creativity; we already have plenty of maufacturing, harvesting, producing, and manual labor slaves... So feel free to clean up the gene pool. You've impeded on scientific progress for far too long in these passed two millenia. :p

o
well im a very practical person
i wouldnt do it because i would have no reason to
because it would make me feel "icky"
because it would have no benefit to me
because it would potentially send me to jail or execution.

i try to not do stupid destructive pointless things. no real upside to it eh?

I love that. :)

So, you mean that once one has made a completely irrational decision based on precisely no evidence, God will then decide that this in some way makes one special and worthy of being spoken to? Have you considered that perhaps the reason that you hear the voice of God at this point is because you want to?
I think that's kind of the point of most religious communion --those who accept god into theirselves are the ones who get to know him. Then you have your evidence.

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves.

No, what is a waste of life is the belief that one can screw their life up and expect life after death. One should make the most of their life for in reality they only have one.

What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life.

None, life is for living even if their is no meaning. In my thinking, life is pure gibberish....

Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power.

I am an atheist and despite my flaws like arrogance and egotism that are built into the human condition, I consider myself a good person. Of course, as an atheist, I cannot believe in absolutes of good and evil. I consider myself a moral relativist, I have grown up in a tolerant and relatively peaceful country (UK) and have been taught right and wrong according to the culture, laws and social norms of my country. While I may find certain act distasteful and 'evil', I also accept the fact that the people doing the 'evil' are not morally wicked and eternally corrupted, I accept that they have an alternative view of the world, that they may percieve that what they are doing is good and right, at least to them.
Absolutism should be avoided.

These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead?

Look intellectual? I am intellectual, at least for my age group (17-18). And in answer to your question, is it not obvious that intellectualism won't help you when your dead? I won't have any brain activity, no mind, no consciousness, no soul. Of course intellectualism won't help me!!!

Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living.

Because I think, therefore I am....

Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code.

I am an atheist because of the concept of god.
According to the Holy Bible, God gave man free will. By what right does God have to command us? To judge us?
That is arrogance, that is self-righteousness, that is not wisdom!
God is supposed to be perfect and yet he has so many flaws.
Tis better to stick with humans and reality than to put my faith with a whimsical, imperfect God and all the painful mysticism that goes with it.

At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

I would live a happy, content and meaningful life on my own terms. I would raise my children based on my own accumulated wisdom over the years, teaching the child not to make the mistakes I made and to allow that child to follow its own path. Then I will die, and be happy that I can rest in peace without the burden of consciousness and soul in some God's afterlife. And if I had wished to keep my consciousness, would it not be preferable to have immortality than to live in a prison for eternity with some entity.

I hope that answers your questions....

i find these threads very confusing

are you suggesting that i should PRETEND there is a god? that i should find some way to delude myself just so i might feel better about the meaninglessness of existance?

i am an atheist because there IS NO GOD

there is no way around that. i, and all of us, have to deal with it someway.

pretending isnt a good way

Indeed, it's a terrible way, and I always have to laugh whenever a Christian posits that atheists should have faith because if they're wrong they're going to Hell. How often in the NT did Jesus belittle the disciples for having insufficient faith? These were men who wanted to believe with all their hearts, so what do you think Jesus would have said to someone who was paying God lip-service out of fear of death?

I am an agnostic, and I'll stay an agnostic until I come to a conclusion that God exists. Then I'll have genuine faith to truly accept Him. I can live my life because my morals exist independently of religion, and I look forward to tomorrow for living.

blablabla men got the idea that there is good an evil
Woah, wait a second. Good and Evil are NOT natural concepts. Certainly pre-Judaic religions had values, but they didn’t go as far as Dualism. Really, where on earth did you pull that concept from?

1st, please insert the name of the person you quote, so we know we are concerned ;)

2nd: Thinking there are some good things and some evil things isn't dualism. The greeks believed there were good and evil things, without being dualists like the zoroastrians. In a sense, I think the notion of good is likely to have existed, in a basic form, before the first religions. However, I have absolutely no proof of it, but I don't think you can show me any proof that men before Judaism had no idea of what is good and what is evil. How can you have values anyway, without the concepts of good and evil?!?

You just incorrectly assumed that I assumed something. If I had assumed she would do it, I would not have posted this:

Your response to Ashmoria's statement implied that you suspected that Ashmoria's beliefs would give her no restricting compulsions AGAINST doing such a thing. It would be akin to someone saying what would happen if they smacked into a wall, and you following up by asking what would stop them from doing it on purpose. It was not so much THAT you asked the question, it was in the manner you asked it.

But eh, whatever.


That's lovely, but I wasn't asking you, I was asking Ashmoria.

I don't really care. Public forums being what they are, and all.

Your response to Ashmoria's statement implied that you suspected that Ashmoria's beliefs would give her no restricting compulsions AGAINST doing such a thing. It would be akin to someone saying what would happen if they smacked into a wall, and you following up by asking what would stop them from doing it on purpose. It was not so much THAT you asked the question, it was in the manner you asked it.

But eh, whatever.
I think you read him wrong. *shrug*

o
well im a very practical person
i wouldnt do it because i would have no reason to
because it would make me feel "icky"
because it would have no benefit to me
because it would potentially send me to jail or execution.

i try to not do stupid destructive pointless things. no real upside to it eh?

Well put. You seem to have a very pragmatic system of ethics, which is what most religious folks have. Thanks for responding. :)

I think you read him wrong. *shrug*

I think so too. I went over my posts several times and still couldn't find the implication Godular mentioned. :confused:

I'm not an atheist, but isn't it just as absurd to claim that you know what happens after death just because someone wrote it in a book?

i know what will happen after death because terry prachet wrote about it in lots of books :D

Of coarse not! If that book is truth! And, since my Lord and Savior told me that book is truth, then I have no reason not to believe him! God speaks to man, and if you are not a Christian, then you have no valid grounds to say otherwise, for you have not expirienced the awesome love of Jesus Christ. Your point of reference of completely different, so I do not fault you for not believing the Bible is true, for Why would the most High God speak to you when you have shut your heart to him and closed your hears to his words. Until you realize that he is the one God, the true God and that Jesus, his son, is the only way to heaven, THAT is when God will devinely speak to you, and not before.

correct me if i am wrong but surely as no one could be born following a specific religion (the mind of a baby not being able to grasp such abstract concepts) then why would this god person not just show up when the kids are sayy about 4 or 5 and explain how yeah he is god you can belive if you like. seems to me that you cant shut your heart without being given the option to accept first and hey if there realy was this wonderfull god figure would any one realy stupid enough to damn themselves?

relating to the point that god tells you to be good people, suppose we found undenyable proof there was no god would you still behave the same way or would you decide that as there is no afterlife you may as well be as malicious and spitefull as you like in this one?

1st, please insert the name of the person you quote, so we know we are concerned ;)

2nd: Thinking there are some good things and some evil things isn't dualism. The greeks believed there were good and evil things, without being dualists like the zoroastrians. In a sense, I think the notion of good is likely to have existed, in a basic form, before the first religions. However, I have absolutely no proof of it, but I don't think you can show me any proof that men before Judaism had no idea of what is good and what is evil. How can you have values anyway, without the concepts of good and evil?!?


What the zoroastrians invented was the idea of absolute good and evil, a polar view of the subject that was later manifested in christianity.

What the zoroastrians invented was the idea of absolute good and evil, a polar view of the subject that was later manifested in christianity.
So I was right. *proud*

thx for your help :-)

I think that's kind of the point of most religious communion --those who accept god into theirselves are the ones who get to know him. Then you have your evidence.
Or, alternatively: those who decide arbitrarily that God exists are the ones who then convince themselves that He does, through delusion and fantasy. Honestly, if anyone else talked about voices in their head, or feelings of presence, they'd be locked up somewhere! Belief in God, in the majority of cases, is nothing more than a socially acceptable derangement.

Most Christians who think they do “good deeds” are liars and they know it. For example: they knowingly buy products made in sweatshops because to have anything other than name brand would make them unpopular – or, some say, it’s just too inconvenient.


Proof please, not just random acusations. Knowingly buying from sweatshops is an acusation. You cant just say that without proof. Since I doubt on the forum you can prove it, you rearly shouldnt have said it.


Besides, Christianity is the biggest excuse for sinning ever created. Incase you haven’t noticed most Christians, by and large, act thusly: they engage in pre-marital sex as much as Atheists do and don’t think anything of it because “God will forgive them”. Basically, any bad deed you do can be forgiven so most Christians don’t give sincere effort (although many – if not all of them – lie to themselves [and others] and say they do).


Again you need to provide proof of your accusations. You cant just make them, thats an insult and borderline flame. And as for the "God will forgive you point" the Christian logic is that if you know how much horrible pain and suffering Jesus went through for your sins, you wouldnt want to add another sin to what he has to deal with.


That’s an OBVIOUS lie – history has proven that. If God told you that, in order to go to heaven, you had to kill someone, would you? You would – if you say “no” you’re a liar.


For something like murder you would have to do a great deal of soul searching, prayer, bible study and mediatation before you come to whether or not God wants you to. But I think the ten commandments should stop you before you waste your time. How exactly has history proven this anyway. If your talking about the crusades, that was a territoral issue, the Saracans took the Europeans land and they wanted there land back.


Really, Neo, you are not original at all. Your “point” (which really is just the topic of Nihilism) is trite, old, and boring. Nietzsche discoursed on it quite a bit. Sartre did, too. Really, a simple search on google will bring up a mountain of relevant information.


I didnt claim to be original, I was asking a quesiton


If there is a god there is no purpose – you’re just doing what you’re told. You’re attempting to be a robot and curse yourself for not being mechanical.
Atheism gives life purpose.


What purpose is that?

Or, alternatively: those who decide arbitrarily that God exists are the ones who then convince themselves that He does, through delusion and fantasy. Honestly, if anyone else talked about voices in their head, or feelings of presence, they'd be locked up somewhere! Belief in God, in the majority of cases, is nothing more than a socially acceptable derangement.

When do Christians talk about voices in their head? Belief in something without proof is called faith. See Hebrews 11: 1

Or, alternatively: those who decide arbitrarily that God exists are the ones who then convince themselves that He does, through delusion and fantasy. Honestly, if anyone else talked about voices in their head, or feelings of presence, they'd be locked up somewhere! Belief in God, in the majority of cases, is nothing more than a socially acceptable derangement.
Such a downer. You see.. the upside of delusion and fantasy is creative imagination and vision, the ability to understand the world through symbolism, and the exercise of the highest faculty of the mind: compassion.

God's words are not necessarily heard as a voice. Have you ever had a "little voice" tell you "pick that one! no!... that one!" and after you picked the wrong one, you bemoan, "Darn! I knew I should have picked the other one"? ;)

I'm an agnostic who feels that the existence or non-existance of a god is irrelevant. If there is a god, I'd like to think that belief in him/her is irrelevant when compared to how you lived your life.

Either way, I find meaning in love, how you relate to other people and just trying to make the most positive impact on the world that you can.

Now, Har Land, I'm all for a little grammar and spelling pedantry, but it does make one look silly (not to mention arrogant) if one makes basic errors whilst castigating others for theirs. Just looking at this one little paragraph, one can see that you have used "know" erroneously (instead of "now"), and also that your use of the comma in the first line is incorrect - it should be, depending on your preferred style and precise implication, either a full stop or semicolon, or possibly a dash. Perhaps you could proof-read your posts in future?

And I really hope I haven't made any mistakes myself...

I'm just saying when you're opening up a new thread, and trying to get into a debate, at least spell the words correctly. Subtle mistakes like simple typo's, and sometimes people will put two of the same words right next to each other (like ... is is... or ...the the...) and not realize it, it's all part of computer useage, but to use larger words, and not even check to see if you spelled them correctly, it's more a pet peeve of mine than anything. And thank you for pointing that out, it gives me the chance to edit and correct it. :)

I put more time into that post than I usually do for posting, and no one has any actual contradiction to it, or are people just passing it over? Every time I post in a thread like this, regardless of the forum, no one ever responds to it for the subject matter at hand.

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

*yawns and groans*

Finally I brought myself around to read this flame-trap... and I must say that your concept of ethical philosophy and whatever may be the meaning of life is rather sophomoric, as is your view of Atheism.

Firstly, why should life be lived solemnly? Life should be enjoyed, whether you are a Theist or an Atheist. Secondly, Atheism does not inherrently include the belief that existence ends at death.

But more importantly you seem to have the condescending view that morality and meaning can only be parts of life if one believes in G-d. Without G-d, even without an afterlife, life can have its own meaning, such as enjoy life, love your family, make the world a better place when you leave it, etc. You might think that the lack of belief a divine judgement removes any real motivation for leading a virtuous and meaningful life, but the presence of it has also led many to lead lives of oppression and injustice against those whose beliefs differ. In addition you should consider that those who value moral action without the need for a punishment hanging over their heads could well be seen as more moral than those who do so from a fear of eternal torture by a G-d who supposedly embodies the highest form of universal love.

Thinik about it a little more, and please come down off of your high horse. I am a Theist as well, but I can see things from both sides. Your assumption that Atheists live meaningless amoral lives is the kind of thing that has been used in the past to regard non-Theists, non-Christians, non-Protestants, etc. as sub-humans unworthy of basic dignity and rights.

I put more time into that post than I usually do for posting, and no one has any actual contradiction to it, or are people just passing it over? Every time I post in a thread like this, regardless of the forum, no one ever responds to it for the subject matter at hand.
You have a fine, well-thought out philosophy and stated it well. Not much to contradict, there. :-)

QUOTE=Insperia]I'm not an atheist, but isn't it just as absurd to claim that you know what happens after death just because someone wrote it in a book?[/QUOTE]
NOT JUST SOMEONE :mad: GOD :cool:

You have a fine, well-thought out philosophy and stated it well. Not much to contradict, there. :-)

Agreed. Har Land's post was good.

NOT JUST SOMEONE :mad: GOD :cool:

God didn't actually write it, men did. That being the case I repeat my second question in this thread.

Are you saying you can prove the bible is a factual historical account? If that's the case then why is anyone argueing?

When do Christians talk about voices in their head? Belief in something without proof is called faith. See Hebrews 11: 1
Ho ho, I thought that might get you going. And faith is a euphemism - a nice way of saying belief on the basis of insufficient evidence; ie., an irrational belief.

For something like murder you would have to do a great deal of soul searching, prayer, bible study and mediatation before you come to whether or not God wants you to. But I think the ten commandments should stop you before you waste your time. How exactly has history proven this anyway. If your talking about the crusades, that was a territoral issue, the Saracans took the Europeans land and they wanted there land back.

Hmm... I seem to remember a specific instance of God-sanctioned murder in the Bible... And it was the man's own son, no less (no, not Jesus).



Now, in response to the initial post which started this whole thing:

I'm not athiest nor agnostic, but I find those who consider them ignorant to be the most ignorant people themselves. Why must morality be justified by religion? Is a utilitarian view or consequentialist basis for good deeds not good enough? Must all good be dictated by some supreme being? Why can people not simply do good deeds for the sake of satisfaction derived from such? Believing that good deeds rely upon a supreme being to have justifications ruins the goodness of it all, doesn't it?

a belief in what? the bible that contradicts itself?

Now, in response to the initial post which started this whole thing:

I'm not athiest nor agnostic, but I find those who consider them ignorant to be the most ignorant people themselves. Why must morality be justified by religion? Is a utilitarian view or consequentialist basis for good deeds not good enough? Must all good be dictated by some supreme being? Why can people not simply do good deeds for the sake of satisfaction derived from such? Believing that good deeds rely upon a supreme being to have justifications ruins the goodness of it all, doesn't it?

Very well put!

Why can people not simply do good deeds for the sake of satisfaction derived from such? Believing that good deeds rely upon a supreme being to have justifications ruins the goodness of it all, doesn't it?

It is not even the satisfaction of doing a good thing, it is more the duty to do it. There is no need for anything in return, even satisfaction. Nice post still :)

Such a downer. You see.. the upside of delusion and fantasy is creative imagination and vision, the ability to understand the world through symbolism, and the exercise of the highest faculty of the mind: compassion.

God's words are not necessarily heard as a voice. Have you ever had a "little voice" tell you "pick that one! no!... that one!" and after you picked the wrong one, you bemoan, "Darn! I knew I should have picked the other one"? ;)
One of my favourite expositions of religious feeling came from a Hindu. She said she was "constantly catching Krishna in the corner of her eye". That spoke very clearly to me.

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

I suffer from occasional depression. In another thread I've been told I'm probably type two rapid-cyclic bipolar or something, my GP said it was just my hormones and put me on the contraceptive pill, so I'm not being treated for it. I cope. Just. Mostly. But possibly only because it is rapid-cyclic. I crash and bounce back fairly quickly.
When I'm depressed, I can't see a reason. For anything. Even at these times, I cannot accept that there is a God, and it would take far longer than I'm prepared to spend to go into all that.
I do not believe in an afterlife. Would it not be horrible to find that you had devoted your life to God, putting aside what *you* want in the hope of some future reward, and in your last few seconds somehow realise that you had wasted all that time, that there was nothing?
We cannot, really, know for sure because as I understand it, religion tends to state that (a) God shouldn't need to prove itself. However, this also means that we cannot be sure that any book or teachings of what God wants are right, because they are after all only Man's interpretation, and Man is of course fallible.
What it boils down to, for me, is this: We're here, so we might as well make the most of it. Why do nice things for other people? Because it filters through. More people benefit than those directly involved. If I help a little old lady get her suitcase up a flight of stairs, she's got an easier time of it, I'm happier because I did something useful, yes, bust also, all the other people who have to use that staircase on their way to work won't get held up and frustrated because she's blocking the staircase and struggling, and are more likely to get to work on time and unruffled. They'll be that little bit nicer to their customers and coworkers than they might otherwise have been, and then be more inclined to do nice things as well.

NOT JUST SOMEONE :mad: GOD :cool:

You must be referring to the Koran, which is the word of God or at least that is what it says. And it is good to see muslims on the board. :)

The Bible is was not written by God, but by men who witnessed Christ. It makes no claim to be the word of God, but is rather observations of lessons taught by Christ and interpreted by men. It is this interpretation that allows for a degree of dispute as to how close to the truth some aspects are and how much some parts were added later to the advantage of the author.

(a reworking of a previous thread)
I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.
Because there is no evidence that a god exists. Whether or not the world is a better place with a god is irrelevant since gods don't exist.
Now whether or not the world is better off with or without beliefs in the supernatural is another question. I happen to think truth is better than fantasy.
How can you live your life believing there is no Santa Claus?

Such a downer. You see.. the upside of delusion and fantasy is creative imagination and vision, the ability to understand the world through symbolism, and the exercise of the highest faculty of the mind: compassion.

God's words are not necessarily heard as a voice. Have you ever had a "little voice" tell you "pick that one! no!... that one!" and after you picked the wrong one, you bemoan, "Darn! I knew I should have picked the other one"? ;)

Oh, I am all for imagination and fantasy, and the products thereof; I am merely pointing out that sane people generally try not to confuse fantasy with reality. And I really cannot see that compassion and delusion are intrisically linked.

Whether or not it is a voice is somewhat irrelevant: it could be a voice, a sensation, a vision, a feeling of presence, et cetera; it makes little difference to the argument which one one picks on.

Could you (or someone) clarify for me what you mean by understanding the world through symbolism? I'm not quite sure...

you asked why i bother to live if not for god...

to be with people i love
to do things i want to do
TO HAVE FUN WITH IT! :D

NEWS FLASH: LIFE IS COOL! IT'S FUN!
if being so weirdly religious has made you lose sight of that :confused: , then i feel really bad for you...

This may be a little off topic, but what do atheists believe happens after death? Nothing, you just stop thinking and feeling and it's just dark? That scares the hell out of me, and I don't understand how someone could just accept something like that.

You must be referring to the Koran, which is the word of God or at least that is what it says. And it is good to see muslims on the board. :)

The Qu'ran was written by the followers of Muhammed, and is their edited recollections of his speeches which he stated was the direct word of God.

This may be a little off topic, but what do atheists believe happens after death? Nothing, you just stop thinking and feeling and it's just dark?


Less than dark....nothing.

That scares the hell out of me, and I don't understand how someone could just accept something like that.

Okay.

This may be a little off topic, but what do atheists believe happens after death? Nothing, you just stop thinking and feeling and it's just dark? That scares the hell out of me, and I don't understand how someone could just accept something like that.

No, that is on topic.

How is that at all scarier than believing that, if you have not been chosen for, or have rejected, a redemption that you have no control over other than to accept or reject, you will be tortured forever by the agents of Love Himself?

Can you explain how someone can just accept something like that?

Sorry if this is redundant, but these are my views on the issue:

1. It is pointless to argue over whether god exists or not. Just as you can not prove religion with science and vice versa, you can not prove or disprove god.
2. I am an atheist, and I am offended by the original post.
3. Philosophy can govern your actions (e.g. morals), just as Religion can.
4. I believe that it is time that this thread ended.

If I offend, I am sorry.

I also feel depressed on a regular basis and in times like that it is hard enough to beleive in things that are tangible, let alone the invisible god.
Though there does seem no point to life if it is not perpetual, I cannot bring myself to believing in life after death. I would relish the thought of living forever, but there seems no way it is possible. I was not brought up as religious, but through meditation it is possible to feel, reach out and touch your death. To know there is nothing there, to sense nothing, to think nothing... Like a knife edge. If you have felt it you will understand.

did I mention that all Athiest haters are bigots who should be :sniper:

Sorry if this is redundant, but these are my views on the issue:

1. It is pointless to argue over whether god exists or not. Just as you can not prove religion with science and vice versa, you can not prove or disprove god.
2. I am an atheist, and I am offended by the original post.
3. Philosophy can govern your actions (e.g. morals), just as Religion can.
4. I believe that it is time that this thread ended.

If I offend, I am sorry.

Amusing that your very first post in this forum has been to protest the free exchange of views here. :D Although I do sympathize with the offence you have taken, it is good for people to express to the holders of such views just WHY they are offensive.

Have you considered the fact that if "God" loves us all, he sends some of us to hell?

did I mention that all Athiest haters are bigots who should be :sniper:

Of course you didn't, this was your first post. :rolleyes:

There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think that the world would be better without certain people, and those that do not. If you are like me, you look fondly forward to the day when we will join together as one people and finally learn... to identify those of the first type so that we can round them up and deal with them.

if there's no god then there is no purpose

If there's no purpose, it makes us automomous beings capable of creating our own purpose.

That's called freedom :D

This may be a little off topic, but what do atheists believe happens after death? Nothing, you just stop thinking and feeling and it's just dark? That scares the hell out of me, and I don't understand how someone could just accept something like that.


Like once you started existence, once you'll stop existing. Accepting it isn't that easy, but well, you don't chose what you believe in.

Amusing that your very first post in this forum has been to protest the free exchange of views here. :D Although I do sympathize with the offence you have taken, it is good for people to express to the holders of such views just WHY they are offensive.
I should have phrased it differently. I mean that the pointless arguments and bickering over religious views should stop. I didn't mean to try and suppress your right to the freedom of speech. My bad.

Have you considered the fact that if "God" loves us all, he sends some of us to hell?

No...just, no. He doesn't send us to hell, or let us go to hell. He saved us as much as he could while keeping his promise of us having free will. Other than that it has nothing to do with god.

This may be a little off topic, but what do atheists believe happens after death? Nothing, you just stop thinking and feeling and it's just dark? That scares the hell out of me, and I don't understand how someone could just accept something like that.
It's probably because many other people feel the same fear about death that has compelled them to believe in a god and sometimes an afterlife. It's also probably a significant part of why people operate the way we do: we're more afraid of death than other life forms, so we do everything we can to extend our lives.

No, that is on topic.

How is that at all scarier than believing that, if you have not been chosen for, or have rejected, a redemption that you have no control over other than to accept or reject, you will be tortured forever by the agents of Love Himself?

Can you explain how someone can just accept something like that?

It seems to make sense to me. It's the same as in everyday life, if you break a law/rule you are punished. That's not as scary to me as just ceasing to exist. But, then, I think of myself as a decent person who has a chance of gaining entry to at least Purgatory.

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

I believe that to truly live an optimal life, one must be concerned for one's own interests as well as those of the groups; this is how I "square in" social responsibility. Humans are social creatures; and as a result, one must navigate their way through the devices humans create in order to create a common good for all...

No...just, no. He doesn't send us to hell, or let us go to hell. He saved us as much as he could while keeping his promise of us having free will. Other than that it has nothing to do with god.

God created the rules so it has everything to do with "him".

No...just, no. He doesn't send us to hell, or let us go to hell. He saved us as much as he could while keeping his promise of us having free will. Other than that it has nothing to do with god.

Wrong. According to John, G-d will command that all sinners be cast into Gehenna, and according to the Bible G-d created all things, which thus includes Gehenna. This "Hell is being outside of the presence of G-d" is unbiblical, nay, against biblical teachings, and thus a crock from a biblical standpoint. Gehenna, the lake of fire, is "in the presence of G-d and His holy angels." Sinners will be tormented in the presence of G-d and His holy angels, after being condemned to Gehenna by the judgement of G-d and Christ, and being cast into the fire by angels.

To those who say that faith is an "irrational belief"...

I agree completely. But on the other hand, I have no problem believing that some things in this universe may be irrational, may defy logic, which is why I choose to have faith in something that I know can never be proven. Am I simply deluding myself? I believe in an afterlife, but even if somehow I were to die and discover that my beliefs were erroneous, I would not consider my life "wasted". Because to me, following God is something that, when done correctly, should lead to happiness anyway.

(An aside: I think we all need to be conscious of stereotypes here. I would encourage anyone who wants to make a reasonable point not to further the false stereotypes of religious Christians as ignorant/bigoted and Athiests as arrogant.)

I have no problem believing that some things in this universe may be irrational, may defy logic

Logic is a human construct based on observation of phenomena, which means phenomena are perfectly free to defy it. We simply observe phenomena we believe to be illogical, and attempt to explain it in the best way we can. It only becomes logical once an explanation is widely accepted.

Christianity is not just an insurence policy. We dont just do these things because we will get into heven. We do them becuase we love God and God told us to love others and so we do that.

Excuse me. I am a practicing Roman Catholic and I have never been taught that our good deeds are performed solely upon the encouragement of God. Goodness and compassion toward humanity comes from the heart and not by command of any higher power.

Hm, the ramifications. Of what?
Life consists of being born, screwing around for about 60 years or whatever, and then dying.
Why do we need to do anything other than live? If I don't shoot up a building, don't get on my ass for not having religious morales.

Goodness and compassion toward humanity comes from the heart and not by command of any higher power.

I almost agree - however in my opinion Goodness and compassion are relative to the individual implementing them. I can't say whether my version of Goodness and compassion is the same as anyone else's, and I can't be sure my version is perfect.

Edit: On a reread, it appears my version is actually in full agreement, if you consider coming from the heart as being equivalent to coming from the individual :D

I think our ideals are very strongly based on our ability to comprehend and empathise with the suffering of others. If we can empathise with the suffering with others, we can appreciate the value in alleviating it.

If there is no ever-present being observing our actions and judging us based on them, then everything boils down to an individual's instinctual desire for security.

Security means a healthy personal environment where all the natural processes of being human can occur with as little hardship as possible.

Hence, if we empathise with another's suffering, and we take steps to alleviate their suffering, we are in turn creating a more healthy personal environment for ourselves, by diminishing the suffering we share with them.

Empathy is the key (I think) to a cohesive, caring society, regardless of religion / faith / non-faith.

Wrong. According to John, G-d will command that all sinners be cast into Gehenna, and according to the Bible G-d created all things, which thus includes Gehenna. This "Hell is being outside of the presence of G-d" is unbiblical, nay, against biblical teachings, and thus a crock from a biblical standpoint. Gehenna, the lake of fire, is "in the presence of G-d and His holy angels." Sinners will be tormented in the presence of G-d and His holy angels, after being condemned to Gehenna by the judgement of G-d and Christ, and being cast into the fire by angels.


The Teutonic Goddess of the Dead and daughter of Loki was named Hel, a Pagan god of torture and punishment. Another "L" was added when the books of the Old Testament were formulated. The prophets who wrote the Bible did not know the word "Hell"; they used the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades, which meant the grave; also the Greek Tartaros, which was the abode of fallen angels, the underworld (inside the earth), and Gehenna, which was a valley near Jerusalem where Moloch reigned and garbage was dumped and burned. It is from this that the Christian Church has evolved the idea of "fire and brimstone" in Hell.


Emboldening my own. You may pooh-pooh the source, but at the time this was written, Anton Lavey had a vested interest in his information being accurate. He wanted to bring the church down, not increase its power.

Basically, your lake of fire mythology was based on a real-life rubbish dump. Now, being cast into a rubbish dump probably isn't the nicest of things to happen to you, but still, it ain't no lake of fire.

And here are my views as an agnostic:

1. Claiming there is no god is just as ridicolous as claiming there is a god, since the existence of a god can neither be proved nor disproved.
2. I neither know nor care wether such a god exists or not. Therefor I can live and act according to what I think is right.
3. I truly respect people with strong faith, wether it is religious or not. However, I do not believe that a person who has never questioned his beliefs can have a strong faith. Strong faith comes from inside, not from people telling you what is right or wrong.
4. I would never introduce my children to any religion. I would however teach them about different religions so that they know as much as possible. If they submit to a religious belief it should be a choice of their own when they are old enough to know what they are doing.
5. As for an afterlife, I sometimes wonder how such a thing would be, but I also realize that there is probably no such thing. My life is just a parenthesis in the eternity of the universe. When I die, I will probably rest in peace and not be disturbed by anyone, neither human nor divine.

I'm not going to bother to read every single post (quit at page 3).

So here's how I feel. I am an Aethist,I think I'm pretty well off with out Christ-love or God in my life. Not that I am against somone who has spirtual values.
I think Aethists really have gotten the short end of the stick with culture these days. We're not all bad people. And to have that pre-concived notion (if I spelled that wrong,yeah I lack in the whole being able to spell department) that your right as a Christian is really how to put this small of you. You wont see me praying anytime soon but you wont see me telling a Christian off anytime also. We'd all be better off if people would just be a little more open minded which is a HUGE thing to ask. Btw: :headbang: nice emoticon,haha.

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

I actually find your post to be rather offensive. Why?

I am someone who does not question the beliefs of others whatever it may be. I expect the same from other people. No one has any right to question the spirituality of another person, not even the Pope himself.

I do not need the influence of religion to determine how to do the right thing and to live a full and happy life.

I have been part of a Peer Tutoring and Mentoring Program for five years. I have helped hundreds, possibly close to the thousand mark, (I'm being conservative in my numbers here), with their studies, primarily science and mathematics, at high schools. This was purely volunteering and although it was based from the university that I attend, it did not contribute to my academic progress in any way.

I have helped out local church groups and muslim groups with their fundraising ventures whether it be to help set up or when purchasing their wares. Why? Because they were not being fundamentalists and they only wished to tell others about what they do without preaching to people and being judgemental. From what I read in the post, I feel that you are being judgemental.

I am also going to volunteer my time to a group that works towards conserving the environment, though I don't know which one as I have many to choose from and I am interested in quite a lot of areas. Not only this, I am going to become a friend of the zoo in my city and join in any projects that interests me and when I can. Similiarly with the large park that is located in my city.

In addition to this, I plan to make a yearly sizeable donation to the Peer Tutoring Program that I have been a part of for my studies. I have just recently completed a Bachelor of Science in Chemistry and will be commencing work shortly.

I do good things because I want to without the influence of any god or supernatural force. I am not comfortable with the thought of others suffering or struggling when I know that I can be of help. This is something that my parents have taught me. They simply stated that if I myself did not like being in such a state, then neither does anyone else. Then when you are able to help, do so.

You argue that intellectualism is no good when you're dead. I agree with that. I don't think that life is defined by intellectualism or any beliefs that you may have. It is defined by the actions of a person, that is how anyone leaves their mark on the world.

I have begun to leave a mark on this world. Many students that I have helped have thanked me. Many others that I have helped thank me.

And do you know what I say to them? I don't need any thanks. Your smile said it all when I was able to help you. And if they ever want to repay the "debt", then perhaps they could do it by being considerate and helping others.

Sitting around discussing whether people have full lives or not depending on whether they have a religion achieves little and can cause others to be upset. You say that aethism is arrogant, however you come across as arrogant in your post. You suggest that everyone only attempts to live a full life and that no one really achieves it unless they believe in a god, or more specifically God. That I find the most offensive.

I suppose you're wondering about my personal beliefs. You're probably thinking that I am an aetheist. I'm not.

I believe there is an afterlife. I don't know what. It's just something I belive in. I believe that there are greater forces than humanity, but not a god per se. And this is certainly not the thread to go into why. You wanted to know how I could live a full life and not believe in a god.

I am engaged to a wonderful man that I want to have his children and to grow old with.

And yes, I do feel that my life is fulfilling and happy. And no, I do not want or need any approval from any spiritual leader in order to get approval from a ethereal being.

And what mark have you left on the world? What good have you done for the world? And by good, I mean have you volunteered your time, energy and skills towards something in which you have recieved no gain? Because I believe that is the most that anyone can give back to the community and it is something more than just merely donating money and closing our eyes to the situation at hand and letting someone else to do the work.

And if you're wondering about my age. I am 23. I've got a whole lot of living to do yet.

Brilliant post, Phenylketonurica :D

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.


The fact that you need the promise of an afterlife from a God in order to make it worth your while to be compassionate is pretty sad really.

Defining life as needing to be defined according to your religion, simply because it is how your religion defines it is circular reasoning.

Many of us find beauty in the world, compassion in our hearts, and a desire to lead a decent, fulfilling life without needing there to be a reward dangled in front of us. We care for our fellow man, our planet, our neighbours, because there is goodness within us. Assuming that such goodness and caring can only have come from God is an interesting theory, however I think it sells the human race short.

But if it's what YOU need to find meaning in your life and a reason to live your life morally - well knock yourself out. Personally, I'll be spending the time that you spend in church and praying for divine help doing something that I feel is more prodctive: actually helping.

Oh, I am all for imagination and fantasy, and the products thereof; I am merely pointing out that sane people generally try not to confuse fantasy with reality. And I really cannot see that compassion and delusion are intrisically linked.

Whether or not it is a voice is somewhat irrelevant: it could be a voice, a sensation, a vision, a feeling of presence, et cetera; it makes little difference to the argument which one one picks on.
No, I suspect you are merely trying to be insulting by demeaning a religious experience :) but that's neither here nor there... Fact is you --along with the current state of objective scientific method --cannot provide insight into the subjective experience of other people, so you have no grounds on which to judge if it is a part of reality or not.

In other words, just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it hasn't been experienced.

And yes, and there are religious sane people.

Could you (or someone) clarify for me what you mean by understanding the world through symbolism? I'm not quite sure...
Sure. Symbolic understanding is a function of the imagination. Humans create symbols. Just about everything that encompasses human understanding of the universe around them is a symbol, from simple words and numbers of language to the artifacts we create to express the emotions and ideals of religion (you know... like crosses, Mother and child X-mas images, chevrons, waves, phallos, obelisks, standing stones, sows, mares, lions, i-ching, astrological symbols, stars, crescents, knots, triskelions, rings, circles, pentagrams, triangles, yoni, ying-yang, grim reaper, virgins, daemons, fairies, ogres, graces, muses, gorgon, cupid, centaur, sphinx, akeru, labyrinths, sekmet, shekina, sophia, dagon, p'an ku, ea, yahweh, oshirvani, osiris, amen-ra, athena, artemis, maya, tiamat, tatara-rabuga, xmucane, raven, coyote, bur, kingu, jove, pragapati, odysseus, arthur, and skywalker).

Oh, and Satan ;-)
http://www.galactanet.com/comic/184.htm

To the person who asked what atheists believe is after life -

Right, now here a major problem with that - Atheism is unstructured. I think something, my atheist friend thinks another thing, and my other atheist friend thinks another. Its so much more individual than religion.

Personally? I think that we all just live on permanetly in our memories. Like, we never die, we just exist infinatly. I think I think that. I dont dwell on my death, I have a few scores of years left (I think... a score is twenty right?), so thats just pointless.

Life is its own meaning. Mine right now?
1) Have Fun
2) Build & Maintain relationships
3) Spend time with girl
4) Have Fun
5) Get skills that I can use
6) Evaluate other people that might have importance in my later life, as to know how they will act in a scenario, so I can turn that to my advantage, which, guess what? My advantage will be used for... preventing very un-fun things from happening to me.

Notice something? The 4 things that aren't have fun are additive and conclusive to having a fun life.

Charity? Sure, that makes me feel good.

If you think I am exceptionally conceited, and only interested in myself, good. I will leave being a martyr to you. But each to his own. I have a sence of honour that is more powerful to me than any religion. Or else I think I do. You see, what matters not is the truth as the world will see it, what matters is the truth according to the community, so I can, (guess what?) be happy without getting stoned to death

Have fun (you saw it coming didn't you!) with your waiting for heaven!

Emboldening my own. You may pooh-pooh the source, but at the time this was written, Anton Lavey had a vested interest in his information being accurate. He wanted to bring the church down, not increase its power.

Basically, your lake of fire mythology was based on a real-life rubbish dump. Now, being cast into a rubbish dump probably isn't the nicest of things to happen to you, but still, it ain't no lake of fire.

Learn to read in context, friend. "My" mythology is none of the above. I was refering to the Christian paradigm. And in that mythology, which I was referencing, not positing, the Ga ben Hinom will become a lake of fire. And it is neither that nor a trash heap today. It is a lovely valley, containing a museum, the Jerusalem Cinematheque, an arab town, and goat/sheep pasturing.

There was not any doubt in my mind that Saddam had them, but was that reason to go to war? Perhaps, perhaps not.

You people go on and on blindly following this so-called "Google" as god. What if he don´t return a search? What if Google lies to you? Have you ever tought about that?

(a reworking of a previous thread)

If their is no God, and therefore no life after death and no meaning to life, then aren't so many thosands of people wasting their lives on anything they do that means they are not enjoying themselves. What possible meaning to life is there without any kind of basis in a belif in the post-earth-life. Good deeds and helping people are wonderful things to do, and I applaud people who do them, but where did we get the idea that we should do them if not from God or some other supernautral power. These (occasionaly arrogent) beliefs in God's non existance may make yourself look very intellectual now, but how does interlectuallism help you when you are dead? Why exactly is someone who is certain that there is no God (and logicaly no meaning to life) living. Life is by a religious definition, a stage. The stage is for you to do as best you can for your God, spread his word, explain to people (while not sounding arrogent/annoying) what he did for the world, how he says people should live their lives and attempt to live their lives by that code. At its end is an afterlife which is diffrent depending on your beliefs (IE its diffrent in your own mind. What it actually is is another matter). I would ask you how you live your life sollemly believeing there is no God.

How come people need god to tell them to do good deeds? Shouldn't we be doing that already? And people define life in different ways. Your way may be to spread god's word, but mine is different. Why do you feel the need to try and convert everyone? Why are you so right in your god? Atheism is a religion as well. Live and let live.

Oh good.

We now have evidence that US invasions cause chemicals to appear in laboratories.

Ho hum.

Wonder who has the largest collection of chemical, biological and nuclear weaponry. Bet its not in Fallujah, nor even in Iraq.

(reworked from other thread)

Have you considered that THIS HERE THREAD might be the ramifications of your thread? Or maybe that the "have YOU considered the ramifications of your views" might be the next trend?

Or perhaps that by me making this thread, im basically reinforcing that both of these threads are now guaranteed to be trends?

confused?? me too...

might as well CONFUSE you more!
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_beready.jpg

Buy Linux. I think that's all that needs to be said here.

Oh, I am all for imagination and fantasy, and the products thereof; I am merely pointing out that sane people generally try not to confuse fantasy with reality. And I really cannot see that compassion and delusion are intrisically linked.
You're not familiar with the conservative view of a "bleeding heart liberal"? What is that if not an accusation of delusion?

maybe the Yahoo God will help us??? or do they work together?

I cant help but notice the part about Anthrax. I remember seeing Powell infront of the UN telling them that Iraq had knowledge of Anthrax, but they didnt believe him. Just goes to show how bad the UN REALLY is.

I cant help but notice the part about Anthrax. I remember seeing Powell infront of the UN telling them that Iraq had knowledge of Anthrax, but they didnt believe him. Just goes to show how bad the UN REALLY is.

I seem to recall that the last recorded attack using anthrax occured in the US.

Who should invade them in order to destroy their stockpiles of WMDs and impose regime change?