NationStates Jolt Archive

Ahhh...it's that time of year again, dinner with the family, nice log fire...nice festival, an extra family get-together that we don't have in Europe. Shame about the ethnic cleansing of the Native Americans, though. :(

Happy thanksgiving!
Do anyone remember the story behind it, how it orgininated, and that you're supposed to stop and be thankful for what you have, or is it just "yay! Candy 'n' trick 'n' treatin' time!!!!11111111111" to everyone you know ;) ?

Aah...Thanksgiving. It defines American Culture...it's obesity that is.

Thanksgiving actually is a day to commemorate the help that the native Americans gave to the new Puritan colonists in surviving their first year.

Before we bash America for genocidal cleansing we should look at other nations and their policies of keeping the natives in a state of poverty and second class citizenry... rather a beam in our own eyes, yes?

And calling Americans obese is just a cheap shot.

Thanksgiving actually is a day to commemorate the help that the native Americans gave to the new Puritan colonists in surviving their first year.

Before we bash America for genocidal cleansing we should look at other nations and their policies of keeping the natives in a state of poverty and second class citizenry... rather a beam in our own eyes, yes?
Kat, you are right about the 1st part.

And the 1st generation of colonists did indeed get along pretty well with the Natives. Plus, if non-Americans want to talk genocide . . . I'm sure I could offer some counterpoints.

Thankyou for trying to insult me, but obesity in America is not some bull you find on a pamphlet passed out at a street corner. It symbolizes the consumption of a majority of the earth's resources by only a small percentage of the population. Giving thanks and then eating up more food than the whole of China can eat in 5 days is (fill in blank with accusatory word)

Thanksgiving actually is a day to commemorate the help that the native Americans gave to the new Puritan colonists in surviving their first year.

Before we bash America for genocidal cleansing we should look at other nations and their policies of keeping the natives in a state of poverty and second class citizenry... rather a beam in our own eyes, yes?
I certainly don't consider myself one for America bashing, but I do think that to turn a blind eye to the dark spots in your history is... unpleasant. I'd just say "yes, these people a couple of centuries ago did some very nasty things, no, we don't have any intention of repeating them, now lets have some turkey".

I am not trying to insult you -- rather, you are trying to insult me.

Try again?

My knowledge of american history is lacking, let me try to piece it together: So, the native americans helped the settlers, and the new inhabitants repaid the debt by killing them?

My knowledge of american history is lacking, let me try to piece it together: So, the native americans helped the settlers, and the new inhabitants repaid the debt by killing them?
The idea was that capturing or killing a few Indians every once in a while would help keep them "humble".

It didn't work great.

The idea was that capturing or killing a few Indians every once in a while would help keep them "humble".

It didn't work great.

We sure have learned since then! That is really something to thank for.

The idea was that capturing or killing a few Indians every once in a while would help keep them "humble".

It didn't work great.

So basically they were bored and wanted someone different to bully.

It was rather a back and forth thing... as the Native Americans were groups of different tribes, some of whom made war on and massacred settlers. Thanksgiving occured some 200 years before anything one could conceivably call ethnic cleansing -- however, this thread is not meant to discuss the history of that conflict, but rather to make one believe that Clint Eastwood whipped out an Uzi and killed them all after failing to get the potatoes passed.

I fail to see how eating one meal made up of foods that are native to American shores and grown here is taking food out of the mouths of people in China.

It was rather a back and forth thing... as the Native Americans were groups of different tribes, some of whom made war on and massacred settlers. Thanksgiving occured some 200 years before anything one could conceivably call ethnic cleansing -- however, this thread is not meant to discuss the history of that conflict, but rather to make one believe that Clint Eastwood whipped out an Uzi and killed them all after failing to get the potatoes passed.

I fail to see how eating one meal made up of foods that are native to American shores and grown here is taking food out of the mouths of people in China.

Only in the sense that the money could be used to help other people, if it were so desired.

I am not trying to insult you -- rather, you are trying to insult me.

Try again?

This is what a REAL cheap shot sounds like.

So basically they were bored and wanted someone different to bully.
Its strange, but almost every group who have ever been persecuted, assuming that they survive, go on to persecute others. Romans persected Christians, Christians spilt to become Catholics and Protestants, who persecute each other fairly indescriminately all through the middle ages. British persecute white South Africans, who then persecute black South Africans. Nazis, coming out from under the shadow of the persecution of the treaty of Versailles, try to persecute everyone in the world, not least of all the Jews, who go on to persecute the Arabs, and if something doesn't change pretty soon, a small group of very fundamentalist Arabs are gonna gather a very large group of moderately fundamentalist Arabs, drive Israel back into the sea and the western world back into the stone age.

This is what a REAL cheap shot sounds like.

I beg your pardon?

You must remember when they started killing natives they were English settelers. then they countinued after we got freedom.

The people who had the first feast were peaceful with the natives.

It was rather a back and forth thing... as the Native Americans were groups of different tribes, some of whom made war on and massacred settlers. Thanksgiving occured some 200 years before anything one could conceivably call ethnic cleansing -- however, this thread is not meant to discuss the history of that conflict, but rather to make one believe that Clint Eastwood whipped out an Uzi and killed them all after failing to get the potatoes passed.

I fail to see how eating one meal made up of foods that are native to American shores and grown here is taking food out of the mouths of people in China.
Columbus was one of the first people to partake in the practice of biological warfare, when he gave smallpox ridden blankets to the Native Americans

http://www.usaid.gov/
http://mumbai.usconsulate.gov/wwwhwashnews1165.html
http://www.catholicrelief.org/about_us/who_we_are/global_partners/us/domestic.cfm
http://www.gkfrancis.btinternet.co.uk/1environment/1potential.htm "Many millions of people are already online

Some 170 million people are online worldwide, a figure which looks set to have increased to a billion towards the end of this decade – one sixth of the planet (IDC Research).

Over 42 million current users are in Europe alone, with 136 million online in the US and Canada, over 2.5 million in Africa, nearly 70 million in Asia/Pacific, nearly 2 million in the Middle East; and almost 11 million in South America (Forrester Research)."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/932297.cms

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf
"There are five major categories of foreign assistance: bilateral development aid,
economic assistance supporting U.S. political and security goals, humanitarian aid,
multilateral economic contributions, and military aid. Due largely to the recent
implementation two new foreign aid initiatives — the Millennium Challenge
Corporation and the Global AIDS Initiative — bilateral development assistance has
become the largest category of U.S. aid.
In 2004, the United States is providing some form of foreign assistance to about
150 countries. Israel and Egypt continue, as they have since the late 1970s, as the
largest recipients, although Iraq, receiving over $20 billion for reconstruction
activities since mid-2003, is the biggest recipient in FY2004. The importance of
Latin America counter-narcotics efforts is also evident, with Bolivia, Peru, and more
recently, Colombia, among the top U.S. aid recipients. The impact of the terrorist
attacks on September 11, 2001, and the subsequent use of foreign aid to support the
war on terrorism is clearly seen in the country-aid allocations for FY2004.
Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan, and Indonesia are key partners in the war on
terrorism.
By nearly all measures, the amount of foreign aid provided by the United States
declined for several decades but has grown in the past few years. After hitting an alltime
low in the mid1990s, total foreign assistance (but excluding Iraq reconstruction)
for FY2003/2004, in real terms, has been larger than any two-year period since the
mid-1980s. The 0.2% of U.S. gross national product represented by foreign aid
obligations the past two years, however, is among the smallest amounts in the last
half-century. The United States is the largest international economic aid donor in
dollar terms but is the smallest contributor among the major donor governments
when calculated as a percent of gross national income.
The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) manages the bulk of
bilateral economic assistance; the Treasury Department handles most multilateral aid;
and the Department of Defense (DOD) and the State Department administer military
and other security-related programs. The Millennium Challenge Corporation is a new
foreign aid agency created in 2004. The House International Relations and Senate
Foreign Relations Committees have primary congressional responsibility for
authorizing foreign aid programs while the House and Senate Appropriations Foreign
Operations Subcommittees manage bills appropriating most foreign assistance funds."

I fail to see how eating one meal made up of foods that are native to American shores and grown here is taking food out of the mouths of people in China.

Actually, you failed to see that I was referring to the consumption of resources such as food. Also, I doubt that all of the turkeys, potatoes, cranberries and so on that Americans eat today comes solely from "the American shores"

Also, with apparent effort to cut down my replies so that people don't get bored by simply looking at the length and wordiness of it...

America refuses to join Kyoto Protocol.

Columbus was one of the first people to partake in the practice of biological warfare, when he gave smallpox ridden blankets to the Native Americans

Columbus was not an American. A Genoan, I believe, working for Spain.

America refuses to join Kyoto Protocol.

Thats only because they're japanese, and asian people are hot

Actually, you failed to see that I was referring to the consumption of resources such as food. Also, I doubt that all of the turkeys, potatoes, cranberries and so on that Americans eat today comes solely from "the American shores"

Hmm. Turkey is native to America. So is corn. So are cranberries (cranberry bogs in New England). So are pumpkins.

Why would we import food that is native here? That would be more expensive. Unless you can back up your assertion?

Hmm. Turkey is native to America. So is corn. So are cranberries (cranberry bogs in New England). So are pumpkins.

Why would we import food that is native here? That would be more expensive. Unless you can back up your assertion?

We would import food here because its cheaper to get the chinese to make it and send it over than to pay more to have fat americans make it, you dolt.

My knowledge of american history is lacking, let me try to piece it together: So, the native americans helped the settlers, and the new inhabitants repaid the debt by killing them?

The dirty little secret that no one likes to talk about, in fact the Native Americans had foreseen people coming from across the sea. They welcomed them with open arms. However, the puritans once settled and in good condition tried to "convert" the native Americans to Christianity, but because the Native Americans had a rich culture of their own they did not wish to be converted. So, tribe after tribe was wiped out, in some cases by killing all of their food supply mostly and namely the Buffalo.

Then in the generous fashion of us North Americans we took it one step further by offering them worthless trinkets and alcohol (which they had never drank before) for all of their land.

Yes, the west, a true shinning example of how the rest of the world should be. :rolleyes:

Ahhh...it's that time of year again, dinner with the family, nice log fire...nice festival, an extra family get-together that we don't have in Europe. Shame about the ethnic cleansing of the Native Americans, though. :(

Darn all the English, Portugese and Spanish that killed all those Native Americans!

(That is, there were no Americans until 1776/87, and the Spanish and Portugese cleaned up in South/Central America... and half the US.)

However, the puritans once settled and in good condition tried to "convert" the native Americans to Christianity

Um... wouldnt the puritans try to convert them to puritanism? duh.

Um... wouldnt the puritans try to convert them to puritanism? duh.

Umm "puritans" were Christians.. :rolleyes:

We would import food here because its cheaper to get the chinese to make it and send it over than to pay more to have fat americans make it, you dolt.

Warned for flaming.

All countries have a black stipe on their record, Americans are ofcourse not special, and there is no way we change what our forefathers did: but that doesnt mean that we should be ashamed of ourselves because of it.

And steph, your bleeding heart is spilling on me! please, its really quite gross.

Also, with apparent effort to cut down my replies so that people don't get bored by simply looking at the length and wordiness of it...

America refuses to join Kyoto Protocol.

Congratulations, you hate America. Do you want a medal?

Warned for flaming.

I do not see this as flaming. This is a true fact, although (s)he could have said it in a different way, it is true that it's cheaper to import it than to manufacture.

I don't doubt that the facts are clear. No reputable historian would dream of denying what actually occured.

I am surprised at people's reaction. To attempt to "justify" what occured by claiming that others have committed genocide is ludicrous. Not even the Nazis at Nuremberg tried that one. Murder is murder. Collective murder is no better. How would you regard someone guilty of murder who claimed "but other people have killed before - why pick on me"?

Pretty pathetic defence, doesn't change the facts, doesn't change the motive.

I do not see this as flaming. This is a true fact, although (s)he could have said it in a different way, it is true that it's cheaper to import it than to manufacture.

He/she called Kat, the mod, a dolt. Flaming. It's usually not wise to insult a mod.

I do not see this as flaming. This is a true fact, although (s)he could have said it in a different way, it is true that it's cheaper to import it than to manufacture.

Calling a moderator a dolt is rarely going to inspire feelings of lovingkindness, puppet. ;)

I don't doubt that the facts are clear. No reputable historian would dream of denying what actually occured.

I am surprised at people's reaction. To attempt to "justify" what occured by claiming that others have committed genocide is ludicrous. Not even the Nazis at Nuremberg tried that one. Murder is murder. Collective murder is no better. How would you regard someone guilty of murder who claimed "but other people have killed before - why pick on me"?

Pretty pathetic defence, doesn't change the facts, doesn't change the motive.

You're right, and it did happen -- the point I was trying to make is that those who are pointing this out should take a look at their own history before pointing fingers.

Fuck the Indians.

Genocide, pah.

If it were genocide, they wouldn't have casinos in California now would they?

puppet-for-Bentastic.
Yes, you caught me.

But now my opinion: Because it was no one specific group of people ed the Native Americans, I don't think it's right to be accusing the Americans just beacuse it's Thanksgiving for them. It was wrong, but why blame the Americans?

You're right, and it did happen -- the point I was trying to make is that those who are pointing this out should take a look at their own history before pointing fingers.
All i can say about Thanksgiving is.....
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_hishome.jpg

You're right, and it did happen -- the point I was trying to make is that those who are pointing this out should take a look at their own history before pointing fingers.

And this would make a difference to what????

If people do recognise faults which have occured in their own nation's history, are they then permitted to show faults in yours?

Does this matter or make any difference at all?

Cannot see any validity in the argument.

Fuck the Indians.

Genocide, pah.

If it were genocide, they wouldn't have casinos in California now would they?

Well, the fact is that they WERE marginalized, forced to live on reservations, and have up to the present tended towards poverty and alcoholism.

Their ability to own casinos goes back the the fact that the tribes inandofthemselves are considered sovereign nations, and they can therefore, according to US treaty, have their own laws there.

If they're alive and kicking, kind of rules out your genocide idea doesn't it?

And this would make a difference to what????

If people do recognise faults which have occured in their own nation's history, are they then permitted to show faults in yours?

Does this matter or make any difference at all?

Cannot see any validity in the argument.

We never see anyone calling for Spain to apologize for its past, nor the English -- remember the sun never setting on the British Empire -- hey, let's get Attila the Hun's descendants to apologize -- how about Genghis Khan, too -- hmm, and the Japanese for China......

What be genocide?

It doesn't matter. The whole Indian thing is just an attempt by fuck offs to try to make America look bad or feel guilty.

Won't happen.

I dare any nation who wants to spit on the U.S. to show their stainless reputation.

It doesn't matter. The whole Indian thing is just an attempt by fuck offs to try to make America look bad or feel guilty.

Won't happen.

I dare any nation who wants to spit on the U.S. to show their stainless reputation.

Yeah, everyone remembers those horrid Scandinavian atrocities!

What about any Americans who wish to spit on themselves? (I know plenty of those.) Then what?

We never see anyone calling for Spain to apologize for its past, nor the English -- remember the sun never setting on the British Empire -- hey, let's get Attila the Hun's descendants to apologize -- how about Genghis Khan, too -- hmm, and the Japanese for China......

You left out the Romans (what have they ever done for us?), the Crusades and many more.

So what?

I agree that an apology is pointless.

However, to attempt to now claim that past genocide is O.K. because "everybody did it" is IMHO a fallacious and immoral argument.

Thanksgiving is a time to be thankful for the fact that the big ol' U.S. of A. is strong enough to consume loads of wares, crap out almost as much pollution as china with a third of the peole and not a single country to stop us. You must jion together to take down the mighty, yes? I say, everyone to England! It seems to be our only safe-have... anywhere else and we must pretend we're Canadian...shame on us. But we're so thankful for it!

On another point, I agree with Smeagol-Gollum.
signed, the Swales

Man, this was supposed to be a light-hearted thread, and everyone goes off on a tengent about American obesity? *Sigh* :rolleyes: