NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4038241.stm

In the UK, if someone breaks into your house, you can't do anything about it... if you do, the burglar can file charges on you. If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them. This is what I'm thankful for this year... I'm thankful my country protects the rights of property owners more than the rights of criminals.

* the title of this thread was edited... I guess it's okay to lampoon the US but not the UK

If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them.

Yes, because it's such an American thing to do to cowardly shoot someone in the back as they run away from you. :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4038241.stm

In the UK, if someone breaks into your house, you can't do anything about it... if you do, the burglar can file charges on you. If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them.

Quite right! They deserve to die for stealing a few possessions! And I think you'll find that you can actually fight back in the UK, just as long as you use reasonable force (which, of course, depends on circumstances, like whether they're armed or not, etc).

Oh no.... it was your son who just didn't put on the lights :mp5: :rolleyes:

What the hell do you think insurance is for?

YEAH! America is best! Cause if something is different in someone else's country, it's wimpy... or it could be COMMUNISM!!@~@~

Dude, your country isn't the best and the rest of the world (which, incidentally does matter :)) doesn't think much of it either. Get over yourself.

When someone invades my home in the middle of the night, they are placing their lives into my hands -- in America, the legal system understands that I don't have a 'moral' resposibility to evaluate how dangerous an intuder before deciding how to defend myself -- in America, the legal system understands that it may be a matter of life and death and that I will do whatever I feel is necessary to protect my family and property. Compare this to the UK where I might get arrested for protecting my family and house. That's lunacy and as a Texan, I can't understand how anyone would support a legal system that favors criminal activity over self-defence.

Criminals are humans too, no one deserves to get shot

Criminals are humans too, no one deserves to get shot
No one deserves to get burgled either dude, if they dont wanna get shot then maybe they shouldnt break into peoples houses.

No one deserves to get burgled either dude, if they dont wanna get shot then maybe they shouldnt break into peoples houses.
True... but would you think it fair someone getting killed over a TV?

Life is more precious than possesion

True... but would you think it fair someone getting killed over a TV?

Life is more precious than possesion
Depends.. is it my TV?

Depends.. is it my TV?
yes... would you kill the guy/girl?

this is exactly why at least half of the americans are total morons.

When someone invades my home in the middle of the night, they are placing their lives into my hands -- in America, the legal system understands that I don't have a 'moral' resposibility to evaluate how dangerous an intuder before deciding how to defend myself -- in America, the legal system understands that it may be a matter of life and death and that I will do whatever I feel is necessary to protect my family and property. Compare this to the UK where I might get arrested for protecting my family and house. That's lunacy and as a Texan, I can't understand how anyone would support a legal system that favors criminal activity over self-defence.


I agree with you but people are too dense to follow the argument. I will simplify.

1. Someone decides to burgle a house.

2. Said individual, in the course of said burglary, LEAVES PUBLIC PROPERTY AND ENTERS PRIVATE PROPERTY ILLEGALLY WITH THE INTENT OF COMMITING A FELONY.

3. Residents of said private property, understandably, have no prior notice of what SAID FELONY IS.

4. Under the strange delusion that said burgler could IN FACT BE THERE TO KILL THEM - PRIOR NOTICE OF THE INTENDED TYPE OF CRIME NOT HAVING BEEN GIVEN, said residents then employ lethal force, being afraid for their lives.

5. If you don't want to be shot, don't break into peoples houses. In public spaces the doctorine of reasonable force applies there. (Unless you rob someone then all bets are off).


And, hippies, if you really believe in the concept of reasonable force, then there is no reason why a woman should ever try to kill a rapist in self defense. After all, he's not going to kill her.


In conclusion. GOD BLESS THE USA.

yes... would you kill the guy/girl?
I cant Im British our legal system punishes people that defend themselves. If I was an American I would certainly shoot them in the stomach if not the head.

True... but would you think it fair someone getting killed over a TV?

Life is more precious than possesion

If someone has already broken into my house, why should I assume that they're not going to attack me, my wife, my children or even my girl friend!

Seriously, I'd like to think that it isn't fair that I risk getting killed over whatever it is this guy wants. How do I know he isn't all hyped up on drugs or am I supposed to just hope he doesn't rape my daughter! That's insane, I'm not going to put FAITH into some creep that has broken into my home. If all he wanted was my TV, then too bad for him -- when someone breaks into my house, I assume they're a drugged-up serial rapist with AIDs and a gun and I take it from there. Better safe than sorry, and the American legal system respects that.

I cant Im British our legal system punishes people that defend themselves. If I was an American I would certainly shoot them in the stomach if not the head.
But why? Because he took a replacable TV set which your insurance probably will cover?

A few years ago a British tourist was shot dead in Miami (I think). He was lost, knocked on someones door for directions and was shot dead. The reason? The killer thought he was a burglar as strangers never knocked on his door. You guys must be terrified of each other to need to carry guns around. What happened to trust and neighbourliness?

A few years ago a British tourist was shot dead in Miami (I think). He was lost, knocked on someones door for directions and was shot dead. The reason? The killer thought he was a burglar as strangers never knocked on his door. You guys must be terrified of each other to need to carry guns around. What happened to trust and neighbourliness?
It died when the neighbours got a gun

A few years ago a British tourist was shot dead in Miami (I think). He was lost, knocked on someones door for directions and was shot dead. The reason? The killer thought he was a burglar as strangers never knocked on his door. You guys must be terrified of each other to need to carry guns around. What happened to trust and neighbourliness?

Urban legend.

weve got to think about why robbers rob things. they dont do it for fun, its a risky activity with massive consequences if they get caught. they do it because they are stuck below the poverty line. the poverty line that is in place because the people above the poverty line support the system of inequality. you cant shoot someone for trying to survive in a system youve forced upon them, texstambul.

I'm sure I remember it being on the news. Anyway, illustrates a trust point doesn't it?

It died when the neighbours got a gun

Of cause you Americans shoot at anything that moves without checking what it is like in this BBC thread

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3613319.stm

But why? Because he took a replacable TV set which your insurance probably will cover?

Okay, this isn't imagination land where we're all psychic and know what's going on in Mr-I'm-Breaking-Into-Your-House's Mind. We're talking about 'it's the middle of the night, and a full grown man in a ski-mask has just broken your window and is lurking around your house.' How do you know that all he wants is you TV? How do you know he isn't some drugged-up serial rapist with Aids and a gun?

We're not talking about hiring a private detective to track down some kid that stole your TV so you can disconnect the breaks to his car two weeks afterwards. (although that would be sweet) This is about the heat of the momment, when you don't know what the fuck's going on.

But why? Because he took a replacable TV set which your insurance probably will cover?
a)I dont care that the tv set is replaceable, I care about the fact that its mine, its in my home and the thief has entered my home without my authorisation.
b)I dont care that my insurance covers it, I care about the fact that my insurance costs so much because assfucks break into houses and steal stuff.
c)I dont actually have any way of knowing that the thief only intends to steal my TV set- perhaps he also intends to rape my wife?After all if the law against breaking into my property didnt dissuade the thief why would the law against rape have any influence on him?

weve got to think about why robbers rob things. they dont do it for fun, its a risky activity with massive consequences if they get caught. they do it because they are stuck below the poverty line. the poverty line that is in place because the people above the poverty line support the system of inequality. you cant shoot someone for trying to survive in a system youve forced upon them, texstambul.

Yes, because their lazy fecklessness stops them form owning an M3 BMW, we should let them break into our houses.

Of cause you Americans shoot at anything that moves without checking what it is like in this BBC thread

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3613319.stm

You have never met an american, that is a gross overgeneralization.

How do you know he isn't some drugged-up serial rapist with Aids and a gun?

because they only exist in imagination land.

weve got to think about why robbers rob things. they dont do it for fun, its a risky activity with massive consequences if they get caught. they do it because they are stuck below the poverty line. the poverty line that is in place because the people above the poverty line support the system of inequality. you cant shoot someone for trying to survive in a system youve forced upon them, texstambul.

Riight -- that's why Worldcom and Enron CEO's stole billions of dollars from average middle class people like me, because I created a system that put them below the poverty line. There are no greedy psychopaths out there, all criminals are criminals because of me. I also created their crack addictions and gave them all STDs. By your logic, people who don't feel attractive because they don't fit the media's standard of beauty should be allowed to rape attractive people. Fuck that, here in America people take responsablity for their own actions.

Riight -- that's why Worldcom and Enron CEO's stole billions of dollars from average middle class people like me, because I created a system that put them below the poverty line. There are no greedy psychopaths out there, all criminals are criminals because of me. I also created their crack addictions and gave them all STDs. By your logic, people who don't feel attractive because they don't fit the media's standard of beauty should be allowed to rape attractive people. Fuck that, here in America people take responsablity for their own actions.

What have you got against people with STIs?

here in America people take responsablity for their own actions
including your government?

Just because you're all gun happy over there and for some reason feel the need to inflict your love of shooting on other countries by dragging their armies into battles so they can get shot too doesn't mean you have the right to condemn the policies of other countries.
Shooting someone because they've broken into your house is just insane. If nothing else you're putting yourself at more risk by doing that than you would be if you got your family into one room together and called the police. After all, they are employed to make sure people stick to the law. If everyone decided to take the law into their own hands here in the UK, we'd probably end up with drugged up psycho maniacs with aids wanting to rape us too. Ever thought about that? :fluffle:

Just because you're all gun happy over there and for some reason feel the need to inflict your love of shooting on other countries by dragging their armies into battles so they can get shot too doesn't mean you have the right to condemn the policies of other countries.
Shooting someone because they've broken into your house is just insane. If nothing else you're putting yourself at more risk by doing that than you would be if you got your family into one room together and called the police. After all, they are employed to make sure people stick to the law. If everyone decided to take the law into their own hands here in the UK, we'd probably end up with drugged up psycho maniacs with aids wanting to rape us too. Ever thought about that? :fluffle:
Crime in the UK is higher than in the US- ever thought about that?

It's different when the guy actually starts attacking people of your family, but as long as he doesn't pose a threat (except to you possesion, WHICH IS REPLACABLE AND YOU HAVE IT INSURED UNLESS YOUR A TOTAL RETARD), why risk him becoming a threat?

including your government?

Oh boo-hoo, I don't liek teh amreicens


Yes the government takes responsibility, To the american people. That's who. Not you.

Crime in the UK is higher than in the US- ever thought about that?

Gun crime isn't.

Crime in the UK is higher than in the US- ever thought about that?

maby but we don't have areas of our citys that are controled by gun wheilding gangs like in maimi or LA.

EVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT

It's different when the guy actually starts attacking people of your family, but as long as he doesn't pose a threat (except to you possesion, WHICH IS REPLACABLE AND YOU HAVE IT INSURED UNLESS YOUR A TOTAL RETARD), why risk him becoming a threat?

He's in your house, he poses a threat already. He came in without invitation.

maby but we don't have areas of our citys that are controled by gun wheilding gangs like in maimi or LA.

EVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT

Nor or ours.

Stop watching TV.

Crime in the UK is higher than in the US- ever thought about that?
Read this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/810522.stm)
bear in mind it is 4 years old.

It's different when the guy actually starts attacking people of your family, but as long as he doesn't pose a threat (except to you possesion, WHICH IS REPLACABLE AND YOU HAVE IT INSURED UNLESS YOUR A TOTAL RETARD), why risk him becoming a threat?
He became a threat when he entered my home without my consent, I am not psychic and have no way of knowing he is only in my home to steal. He ceases to be a threat when I shoot him.Had he not broken into my home he wouldnt have got shot.

But the death rate is plenty lower and the reason the crime rate is higher is because people report crimes rather than dealing with them themselves!

What have you got against people with STIs?

an econo-pack of rubbers.

He's in your house, he poses a threat already. He came in without invitation.
No he doesn't.... you're asleep in your bed and he has NO INTENTION of waking you up so you can CALL THE COPS and send him in jail

Nor or ours.

Stop watching TV.

Even documenterys about LA gangs :p

Read this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/810522.stm)

BBC bollocks. Look at the nation as a whole. Crime is lower here, it just peaks in the blue areas which you guys love so much.

You are far more likely to be a victim of crime in the UK that th US on average.

You are far more likely to be a victim of crime in the UK that th US on average.

Well give us some proof to back that up then.

But the death rate is plenty lower and the reason the crime rate is higher is because people report crimes rather than dealing with them themselves!
They cant deal with crime themselves in the UK look at what happened to Tony Martin for christs sake.

Well give us some proof to back that up then.
The link you supplied earlier (to the BBC) stated that people in the UK were more likely to be the victim of burglarly or have their car stolen. People in the US however are more likely to be murdered//raped.

They cant deal with crime themselves in the UK
Why should we, thats what we pay the police for.

But the death rate is plenty lower and the reason the crime rate is higher is because people report crimes rather than dealing with them themselves!

I guess we're more self-sufficent that way...

also, one reason there may be a higher crime rate in the UK is because of retarded laws that make it illegal to protect yourself...

The link you supplied earlier (to the BBC) stated that people in the UK were more likely to be the victim of burglarly or have their car stolen. People in the US however are more likely to be murdered//raped.

please tell me how that makes uk crime rate look worse coz where i'm sitting it looks like the US is worse off

No he doesn't.... you're asleep in your bed and he has NO INTENTION of waking you up so you can CALL THE COPS and send him in jail


Unlike the UK we do not have policemen stationed right in front of our houses, the response time for the cops is around ten minutes usually. (Far longer inrural areas).

So while I'm calling the cops and distrubing mister shitface burgler, what should I do. Make him a nice cup of tea while he waits?

If someone has already broken into my house, why should I assume that they're not going to attack me, my wife, my children or even my girl friend!

Seriously, I'd like to think that it isn't fair that I risk getting killed over whatever it is this guy wants. How do I know he isn't all hyped up on drugs or am I supposed to just hope he doesn't rape my daughter! That's insane, I'm not going to put FAITH into some creep that has broken into my home. If all he wanted was my TV, then too bad for him -- when someone breaks into my house, I assume they're a drugged-up serial rapist with AIDs and a gun and I take it from there. Better safe than sorry, and the American legal system respects that.

The American legal system is fascist.
With your name in this forum you could be living in United Statistan...
USA is as integralist as any other integralist you like to go around bombing.
The whole "shoot first" thing is a mess!
You guys likes to spill blood, and that isn't nice, you know?
I am afraid of americans, and that is probably what you want, isn't it?
Soon they'll elect the new Hitler to be on charge and there will not be any space to hide on earth.

Please, don't shot me for saying this. I am just the pianist.

I guess we're more self-sufficent that way...

also, one reason there may be a higher crime rate in the UK is because of retarded laws that make it illegal to protect yourself...
It's illegal to take a man's life... why is that bad?

Why should we, thats what we pay the police for.
If the police did their jobs and caught burglars rather than people driving 11 miles over the sodding speed limit perhaps Tony Martin wouldnt have taken things into his own hands?
The police in this country are useless.

The link you supplied earlier (to the BBC) stated that people in the UK were more likely to be the victim of burglarly or have their car stolen. People in the US however are more likely to be murdered//raped.
I know, it also pointed out that violent gun crime and death from shooting were much higher in the US. My point being that it is too simplistic for us to say it is worse here or there, both societies have crime problems. The issue is whether ownership of guns makes a difference. The answer would seem to be yes. Less robbery and more murder - depends which you think is more immoral really doesn't it?

Why should we, thats what we pay the police for.

well then, you might want to reconsider your payment options because they seem to be doing a piss poor job.

They cant deal with crime themselves in the UK look at what happened to Tony Martin for christs sake.

I think you'll find that was my point! because we don't all run around in the dark waving guns at people and instead report crimes when they happen the crime FIGURES probably are a little higher but only because a lot of crimes in America aren't reorted. I bet if you looked the types of crime in America would be more serious. even shop lifting incidents get included on the UK figures!

I guess we're more self-sufficent that way...

also, one reason there may be a higher crime rate in the UK is because of retarded laws that make it illegal to protect yourself...

No, its just illegal to shoot someone who has tried to knick your car.... you can smack em over the head with a frying pan or whatever, and as long as you can prove it was self defence you're fine. If they come at you with a knife you can defend yourself, you just can't kill them.

It's illegal to take a man's life... why is that bad?
Its stops you killing burglars, dead burglars= less burglars-less crime. Its win win.

Unlike the UK we do not have policemen stationed right in front of our houses, the response time for the cops is around ten minutes usually. (Far longer inrural areas).

So while I'm calling the cops and distrubing mister shitface burgler, what should I do. Make him a nice cup of tea while he waits?
he runs away, you wait for the cops and go back to sleep.
Hey! No lives wasted! unbelievable

Unlike the UK we do not have policemen stationed right in front of our houses, the response time for the cops is around ten minutes usually. (Far longer inrural areas).

So while I'm calling the cops and distrubing mister shitface burgler, what should I do. Make him a nice cup of tea while he waits?
a) don't disturb the burglar
b) even if the cops come late there is still a fair chance they can catch him pretty fast (if you took the trouble to look out your window to see what car he was in)

If the police did their jobs and caught burglars rather than people driving 11 miles over the sodding speed limit perhaps Tony Martin wouldnt have taken things into his own hands?
The police in this country are useless.

Hey, you get 10% plus 2 thats usually enough, and 11mph is plenty enough different enough when it comes to breaking distance. But its not all over the country, my local area has a good police force, others like Humberside, have crappy ones.

I think you'll find that was my point!
You think Tony Martin deserved to go to prison?

Its stops you killing burglars, dead burglars= less burglars-less crime. Its win win.
Killing burglars = dead burglars = a life taken.
There isn't less crime because of it. There is ONE criminal less because of it.
And how is it win win if one of the parties DIES?

Well give us some proof to back that up then.

There are home office white papers thst document crime nationwide.

There are FBI studies that do the same. Look at them both. The most crime free areas in the world are the heart of those "red" states you despise over there so much.

BTW, the british crime stats consistenlty under-report the level of actual crime.

Plus, while you are at it, enjoy London, the rape capital of the western world.

he runs away, you wait for the cops and go back to sleep.
Hey! No lives wasted! unbelievable
The burglar wasted his life when he broke into a house and got shot for it.
Or dont you think that people can feel their life is wasted when they are the repeated victims of burglarly?

It's illegal to take a man's life... why is that bad?

It's bad if it is illegal for me to defend himself... see, we have laws against murder in the USA too, but they make a distinction between defending yourself from an intruder and going out into the street and randomly blowing someone's brains out. The UK doesn't seem to make a distinction.

Killing burglars = dead burglars = a life taken.
There isn't less crime because of it. There is ONE criminal less because of it.
And how is it win win if one of the parties DIES?

You forgot one thing now the guy who killed the burglar is a killer

Its stops you killing burglars, dead burglars= less burglars-less crime. Its win win.
Burglas=criminals
you killing then=criminal
less burglars more murderers Great!

an econo-pack of rubbers.

What kind of answer is that supposed to be? There are all-sorts of ways people can end up with HIV or other STIs.

Blood transfusions
Burst condoms (it happens, even if used correctly)
Lack of education/prevalence of myth
Exploitation of dependents (blackmail, basically)
Rape
Kissing - yes, several STIs are spread by kissing, and catching an STI makes you around 10 times more likely to pick up HIV. Many STIs don't show obvious symptoms in women, too, so a lack of education and testing can lead many responsible people to go untreated.

Add to that stigma in society (something you have just demonstrated), and people feel scared to admit they might be at risk, so don't get themselves tested.

Killing burglars = dead burglars = a life taken.
There isn't less crime because of it. There is ONE criminal less because of it.
And how is it win win if one of the parties DIES?
Its win win because a)the burglar wont steal from me again
and b)he wont steal from anyone else either.
I dont actually give a fuck about the burglar I am more concerned with his victims- does that make me a bad person?

Your crass comment that the citizens of the Uk are *wimps* because they do not shoot someone dead for burglary, is completely unjustified.
Ever you considered that we may have the sense not to shoot and ask questions later? I mean Why are they burgling your house? for the TV to sell so that they can feed their drugs addiction. They don't need to be shot, they need *Help*.

We are wimps eh? Consider the fact the the Americans were too wimpy enter WW2 until someone attacked their home soil. The Uk declared war on Germany for invading *another* country, Poland. The other side of Europe.
And the effect of 9/11 has resulted in thousands of more deaths. 5000 people died on 9/11, that many people are killed on the roads every day. Also bear in mind that our Black Watch are covering your hairy behinds as you realise that you don't have enough troops for your crazy jaunts over the Iraqi countryside.

Think about how you use the term *wimp* when mention the Uk in the future.

a) don't disturb the burglar
b) even if the cops come late there is still a fair chance they can catch him pretty fast (if you took the trouble to look out your window to see what car he was in)

So let me get this right, the burgler is now I guest in my house that I can't disturb?

And no, there is bugger all chance of the cops catching him. Especially if I live in a rural area.

I say to you, then, using your logic, if a woman is being raped she should just lie back and put up with it.

You think Tony Martin deserved to go to prison?

He shot an unarmed teenager.

It's bad if it is illegal for me to defend himself... see, we have laws against murder in the USA too, but they make a distinction between defending yourself from an intruder and going out into the street and randomly blowing someone's brains out. The UK doesn't seem to make a distinction.
Why do you have to defend yourself/your family from an intruder if he poses no physical harm to you/your family?

he runs away, you wait for the cops and go back to sleep.
Hey! No lives wasted! unbelievable

What if he doesn't run away?

What if he gets angry and tries to kill me for picking up the phone?

Who can tell.

Better to be safe and just let me shoot him.

The burglar wasted his life when he broke into a house and got shot for it.
Or dont you think that people can feel their life is wasted when they are the repeated victims of burglarly?
Should we now give death penalties for burglars?
People feel their life is wasted if they've been robbed?
They have some serious problems...

here in America people take responsablity for their own actions.

Riiight. Sure. That's why so many of you spend all your time suing each other for getting coffee that was too hot, or for not telling you not to do something unbelievably stupid with a household appliance. Because you all take responsibility for your own actions. Uh-huh. Nobody could possibly claim that America was in the grip of a blame-and-compensation culture gone bananas. That would be crazy.

Re. crime figures: we've been through all this before, many times. The UK has a higher rate of reported crime than the USA. We also have a drastically higher population density. The USA, however, despite its much more distributed, spread-out population, has higher rates of violent crimes, like assault, armed assault, rape and murder. Comparing cities with cities -- areas of roughly equal population density, in other words -- indicates that American cities have murder rates up to 10 times higher than their UK counterparts. No wonder you all feel the need to tool up, even though it's self-defeating. Go USA.

he runs away, you wait for the cops and go back to sleep.
Hey! No lives wasted! unbelievable

Unless you're my friend Warwick, in which case you sit him down in front of the computer and webcam and get him to tell everyone on IRC what he just did, because they wouldn't believe you otherwise.
The guy in question had just come in through the garage roof and promptly been bashed on the head with a large maglite.

You think Tony Martin deserved to go to prison?

Yep. If he'd called the police the place would have been covered in fingerprints and they'd have got the culprits anyway. I'm not saying I don't understand why he would want to protect his property or why he might want to scare the burglars away but shooting at someone just isn't right. I don't know what makes you guys thikn yoou have the power to kill people. where I come from murder in any form is wrong. The minute you start making rules for when it's ok, you're going to end up with people twisting it and using it as a defence for all sorts of things.
Say I find out my boyfriend is having an affair. I use his mobile to text the woman he's cheating with and invite her over saying I'm out for the night and I'm just having a bath but have left the front door unlocked so she can let herself in. Then, when she came into my house I shot her and claimed I thought she was going to burgle me. Is that ok too?

So let me get this right, the burgler is now I guest in my house that I can't disturb?

And no, there is bugger all chance of the cops catching him. Especially if I live in a rural area.

I say to you, then, using your logic, if a woman is being raped she should just lie back and put up with it.
That's physical harm.... that's something different.

I'm not saying the burglar is a guest. I'm saying that by disturbing him, you might be putting your and your family's life at risk.

You think Tony Martin deserved to go to prison?


I contributed to his legal fund. Poor bastard,

And then they deny him parole, while giving it to some baby raper.

To think, the British justice system used to be the envy of the world. :(

I contributed to his legal fund. Poor bastard,

And then they deny him parole, while giving it to some baby raper.

To think, the British justice system used to be the envy of the world. :(

They denied him parole for his own safety.

What if he doesn't run away?

What if he gets angry and tries to kill me for picking up the phone?

Who can tell.

Better to be safe and just let me shoot him.
What if he has a gun and expects the owners of the house to have one too?
One prepared & armed burglar vs One sleepy & armed person

Its stops you killing burglars, dead burglars= less burglars-less crime. Its win win.

How about new doctorine:

Less poor, less burglars.
Less guns, less deaths.

Edit:

How about stun guns instead of firearms?

The easy asses to guns is likely to be used by criminals
more than normal people. And how about the poor people
who cant bye guns? They are the most likely people
suffer from the guns.

Burglas=criminals
you killing then=criminal
less burglars more murderers Great!
Its only criminal in the UK not in the US;
And how is killing a burglar murder? Its waste disposal surely?

What if he doesn't run away?

What if he gets angry and tries to kill me for picking up the phone?

Who can tell.

Better to be safe and just let me shoot him.

Then you can defend yourself. "Defending" yourself against someone who hasn't attacked you and has no intention of doing so is a very American idea.

I say to you, then, using your logic, if a woman is being raped she should just lie back and put up with it.
Of course you can use selfdefence but you can't just shoot anyone. Burglar isn't a threat to you, it's threat to your tv set

2 amricans in the woods hunting and 1 accdentily shoots the other guy in the back. Fearing for his life he calls 999 (or 911 whatever it is over there). "Help me my friend has been shot and i need an ambulance." the operator repliys "Ok clam down just check if he is dead." The line goes quiet then a gun shot can be heard then the man picks up and says "He is now."

well know british joke

Why stop at simply killling these burglars? Why not EAT THEM too? That would really be showing those wimpy British what we're all about here in America!

What kind of answer is that supposed to be?


An honest one. You asked me 'what do you have against people with STIs' and I told you an econo-pack of condoms -- as in, I'll fuck you, but I'm going to double bag it so I don't get your weird infection.

And really, my sexual practices have nothing to do with this discussion of why the UK legal system protects the 'rights' of criminals to safely invade people's homes.

What if he doesn't run away?

What if he gets angry and tries to kill me for picking up the phone?

Who can tell.

Better to be safe and just let me shoot him.
Then you can defend yourself, but not before you know if he/she is a risk to anyone.

And then they deny him parole
To get parole you have to show genuine remorse and have served your minimum sentence.
while giving it to some baby raper
Don't you think this is a little extreme? Your arguement would be better served by giving a real comparision than by posting this kind of rhetoric.

That's physical harm.... that's something different.

I'm not saying the burglar is a guest. I'm saying that by disturbing him, you might be putting your and your family's life at risk.

Oh so, he breaks into my house, and I should be afraid to distub him because that puts me and my family at risk.

Yes you are right, I should just cower under the bedsheets and hope that all he wants is my TV and that he will go away soon.

On the other hand, how can I know that is what he wants. What if he wants a little rape action too?

Well I suppose I could let him have that also, becuase he has not yet said he will kill anyone, so the use of leathal force would be wrong.

I prefer my method though, where I don't know what he wants and I will use every advantage I have to stop him with impunity. Rather than letting him tell me his ultimate intentions first.

Why do you have to defend yourself/your family from an intruder if he poses no physical harm to you/your family?

For the last fucking time, "HOW DO I KNOW WHAT HIS INTENTIONS ARE FOR BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE!"

Unless you're my friend Warwick, in which case you sit him down in front of the computer and webcam and get him to tell everyone on IRC what he just did, because they wouldn't believe you otherwise.
The guy in question had just come in through the garage roof and promptly been bashed on the head with a large maglite.
Who wouldn't believe me?

For the last fucking time, "HOW DO I KNOW WHAT HIS INTENTIONS ARE FOR BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE!"

then knock him out and wait for the police you DON'T have to kill him

To get parole you have to show genuine remorse and have served your minimum sentence.

Don't you think this is a little extreme? Your arguement would be better served by giving a real comparision than by posting this kind of rhetoric.

Why the fuck should he show remorse. He did nothing wrong.

And it's not rhetoric, by your own admission babyrapers get out if they "show" remorse.

Well done UK. Another shining example of justice.

An honest one. You asked me 'what do you have against people with STIs' and I told you an econo-pack of condoms -- as in, I'll fuck you, but I'm going to double bag it so I don't get your weird infection.

And really, my sexual practices have nothing to do with this discussion of why the UK legal system protects the 'rights' of criminals to safely invade people's homes.

It does however demonstrate what a bigoted wanker you are.

Most common time for burglary: Friday afternoon when people are still at work. Burglars want empty houses - more time to knick stuff and no danger of witnesses.

Oh so, he breaks into my house, and I should be afraid to distub him because that puts me and my family at risk.

Yes you are right, I should just cower under the bedsheets and hope that all he wants is my TV and that he will go away soon.

On the other hand, how can I know that is what he wants. What if he wants a little rape action too?

Well I suppose I could let him have that also, becuase he has not yet said he will kill anyone, so the use of leathal force would be wrong.

I prefer my method though, where I don't know what he wants and I will use every advantage I have to stop him with impunity. Rather than letting him tell me his ultimate intentions first.
Errr.... or just wait upstairs in your bedroom with your gun until you're sure he's gone. If he breaks into that one you're pretty sure he means harm

Most common time for burglary: Friday afternoon when people are still at work. Burglars want empty houses - more time to knick stuff and no danger of witnesses.

Actually, I'll think you find the most common time is the evening of Nov 5th. Everyone's outside and there's lots of distracting noises.

Its only criminal in the UK not in the US;
And how is killing a burglar murder? Its waste disposal surely?
Alright it isn't murder it's just killing. only 8 years in jail.

For the last fucking time, "HOW DO I KNOW WHAT HIS INTENTIONS ARE FOR BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE!"
You don't. But for the last fucking time: YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE A HUMAN LIFE FOR A BLOODY TV?

For the last fucking time, "HOW DO I KNOW WHAT HIS INTENTIONS ARE FOR BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE!"
Indeed, perhaps you are expected to wait until he actually starts to fuck one of your children before you can declare the intruder is a threat. Hell I always thought someone breaking into my home was a threat maybe we just have different definitions of what a threat is?

Why the fuck should he show remorse. He did nothing wrong.

And it's not rhetoric, by your own admission babyrapers get out if they "show" remorse.

Well done UK. Another shining example of justice.
I made no comment on whethr he should or shouldn't. I am just saying what the requirement is. To your second point a "baby raper" is unlikely to ever get out as they would be extrememly unlikely to be sane enough to show real remorse.

You don't. But for the last fucking time: YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE A HUMAN LIFE FOR A BLOODY TV?

I think they've made it quite clear they are!

Its because in the states everyone is so gun happy that the burgler more than likely is armed, and therefore they put laws in place that assume the worst and allow you to shoot back. In the rest of the western world, they'll more than likely run off if they hear you get up and yell because they're less likely to be armed.

How many burglaries (in the UK) end up with the burglar killing or raping one or more members of the family?

I think they've made it quite clear they are!

they love to kill people. especially there allies

You don't. But for the last fucking time: YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE A HUMAN LIFE FOR A BLOODY TV?
Yes, yes we are; My tv is worth more than a burglars life (to me anyway) if the burglar had the sense to steal your TV he woulda been fine.Its the chance burglars take when they embark upon a life of crime.

Could I just point out to our American friends, especially the red meat eating gun-loving hairy-chested ones, that here in the UK actually having a gun to shoot intruders with is MORE illegal than them breaking into your property in the first place.

Oh, and don't call us a bunch of wimps...modify your statement a little so that it reads 'The UK Govt are a bunch of wimps' because they are really crap. :headbang:



They still aren't American though :D

How many burglaries (in the UK) end up with the burglar killing or raping one or more members of the family?

Very few. Well over 90% of rapes are commited by someone known to the victim. Few burlgars target occupied houses.

Indeed, perhaps you are expected to wait until he actually starts to fuck one of your children before you can declare the intruder is a threat. Hell I always thought someone breaking into my home was a threat maybe we just have different definitions of what a threat is?
A threat to what? Your possesion? Thieves know better than to go upstairs where everyone is and everyone can later indentify the him. If he does go upstairs I'd say he is a threat to you, but how many do?

they love to kill people. especially there allies

don't you get bonus points for that, like when you hit a granny in your car?

Yes, yes we are; My tv is worth more than a burglars life (to me anyway) if the burglar had the sense to steal your TV he woulda been fine.Its the chance burglars take when they embark upon a life of crime.
Embark... be forced into.... it's all the same

A threat to what? Your possesion? Thieves know better than to go upstairs where everyone is and everyone can later indentify the him. If he does go upstairs I'd say he is a threat to you, but how many do?
If thieves actually did know better they wouldnt be in a position to get shot for trying to steal my tv now would they?

We have to agree to disagree here dude- you think a criminals life has value and I dont- consequentially I have no moral problem with shooting a burglar and you do.

Yes, yes we are; My tv is worth more than a burglars life (to me anyway) if the burglar had the sense to steal your TV he woulda been fine.Its the chance burglars take when they embark upon a life of crime.

Then -- if you live in the UK -- you might find yourself going to jail for a long time, should you ever choose to express those values. Because neither English nor Scottish law regards anybody's TV as more important than any human life.

Indeed, perhaps you are expected to wait until he actually starts to fuck one of your children before you can declare the intruder is a threat. Hell I always thought someone breaking into my home was a threat maybe we just have different definitions of what a threat is?

Gosh, someone has a lot of hangups... Why the continuous assumption that someone is going to come along and violate you, or one of your family? I think for someone who is so condeming of simple thieves, you spend an awful lot of time obsessing about murder and rape. I'm always somewhat amused when people decribe the states as having "security issues". That's definetely what the psychiatric profession would call it. And it seems a pretty miserable existence to be continuously living in fear of your life ... I've slept in a unlocked house, on my own, many a time, and I don't give a damn. God bless insurance!

If thieves actually did know better they wouldnt be in a position to get shot for trying to steal my tv now would they?

We have to agree to disagree here dude- you think a criminals life has value and I dont- consequentially I have no moral problem with shooting a burglar and you do.
It can never be moral to take a life surely. It may be justified or even neccessary but never moral. Killing another human is always immoral.

you think a criminals life has value and I dont- consequentially I have no moral problem with shooting a burglar and you do.

so what life do you think has value if any apart from yours

God bless insurance!

I declare November 25th National Insurance Day!!

What if he doesn't run away?

What if he gets angry and tries to kill me for picking up the phone?

Who can tell.

Better to be safe and just let me shoot him.

Please note that none of us have protested the use of *non-lethal* force. In nearly 30 years of living in London I've had precisely *one* incident - a girl on a train mumbling about how she was going to knife me if she ever saw me again. I have no idea what it was about, and only found out about it when she'd got off the train. All she actually did was give me a dirty look. However if I *were* attacked, I would have no problem with fighting back - would probably take great delight in doing so, as it happens. But I would not want a death on my conscience. Maybe if I was attacked by a guy with a knife I would try to turn that knife against him - but I would not actually try to kill him. I thought as an apparently christian country, America would actually want to abide by the whole 'thou shalt not kill' thing.

Gosh, someone has a lot of hangups... Why the continuous assumption that someone is going to come along and violate you, or one of your family? I think for someone who is so condeming of simple thieves, you spend an awful lot of time obsessing about murder and rape. I'm always somewhat amused when people decribe the states as having "security issues". That's definetely what the psychiatric profession would call it. And it seems a pretty miserable existence to be continuously living in fear of your life ... I've slept in a unlocked house, on my own, many a time, and I don't give a damn. God bless insurance!
*applauds*

I repeat myself:

Why shotgun, why not stun gun?

Unconsious can't kill anyone and can tell a lot to the police.

then knock him out and wait for the police you DON'T have to kill him

no, I don't have to kill him... and I really don't want to kill him. Hopefully, he'll be scared shitless by my gun and will sit there like a good little boy and wait for the police -- but really, it just depends on how I'm feeling at the time. If I'm a little hung over and it's storming and the guy is pretty big and I've been drinking, I might not risk it. Besides, its really hard to say what's going to happen when the time comes... It's not like I'm going to move into a high crime area just so I can have a chance and killing someone. This is about being awoken in the middle of the night and knowing that your family is at the mercy of a criminal.

Errr.... or just wait upstairs in your bedroom with your gun until you're sure he's gone. If he breaks into that one you're pretty sure he means harm

And if my child is downstairs or in another room, I should just cower there.

And frankly I'm not waiting for him to get the jump on me, I want the jump on him.

The rule is simple: If you don't want to get shot, STAY OUT OF MY HOUSE.

Not that hard really.

I think most Texans don't condider the tv more important than a human life. In Texas, they just love to kill people. G. W. was governor there, remember?

so what life do you think has value if any apart from yours
Irrelevent to the topic at hand.

Irrelevent to the topic at hand.

How?

If thieves actually did know better they wouldnt be in a position to get shot for trying to steal my tv now would they?

We have to agree to disagree here dude- you think a criminals life has value and I dont- consequentially I have no moral problem with shooting a burglar and you do.
Good for you.... to me you are now a psychopath

And if my child is downstairs or in another room, I should just cower there.

And frankly I'm not waiting for him to get the jump on me, I want the jump on him.

The rule is simple: If you don't want to get shot, STAY OUT OF MY HOUSE.

Not that hard really.
I think you would hear something like that happening.

If you don't want to get shot; don't shoot

Gosh, someone has a lot of hangups... Why the continuous assumption that someone is going to come along and violate you, or one of your family? I think for someone who is so condeming of simple thieves, you spend an awful lot of time obsessing about murder and rape. I'm always somewhat amused when people decribe the states as having "security issues". That's definetely what the psychiatric profession would call it. And it seems a pretty miserable existence to be continuously living in fear of your life ... I've slept in a unlocked house, on my own, many a time, and I don't give a damn. God bless insurance!
Ad Hominem and irrelevent You have no reason to belief that I am continuously assuming anything, or that I continuously live in fear of my life.

Please note that none of us have protested the use of *non-lethal* force. In nearly 30 years of living in London I've had precisely *one* incident - a girl on a train mumbling about how she was going to knife me if she ever saw me again. I have no idea what it was about, and only found out about it when she'd got off the train. All she actually did was give me a dirty look. However if I *were* attacked, I would have no problem with fighting back - would probably take great delight in doing so, as it happens. But I would not want a death on my conscience. Maybe if I was attacked by a guy with a knife I would try to turn that knife against him - but I would not actually try to kill him. I thought as an apparently christian country, America would actually want to abide by the whole 'thou shalt not kill' thing.

Not in your house.

You see - and I'm sure even brits can follow this - they have already broken the law in respect of my property, therefore I am okay to assume that they have similar disregard for other laws.

Don't break into peoples houses. It is a simple and elegant rule.

Ad Hominem and irrelevent You have no reason to belief that I am continuously assuming anything, or that I continuously live in fear of my life.

Hmm, so all arguments you have no answer for are irrelevant, are they?

Irrelevent to the topic at hand.

Is it? the fact that you don't value life makes me think you will be willing to go out on a killing spree

Who wouldn't believe me?

...last time I checked he wasn't in Finland... Weird stuff shouldn't happen to anyone as often as it does to Warwick. The policeman came on and said hi, too.

How?
I have made it clear that I place no value on the lives of criminals- its not relevent what value I place on the lives of non criminals.

Not in your house.

You see - and I'm sure even brits can follow this - they have already broken the law in respect of my property, therefore I am okay to assume that they have similar disregard for other laws.

Don't break into peoples houses. It is a simple and elegant rule.
Don't kill. I think it's even better.

Hmm, so all arguments you have no answer for are irrelevant, are they?
It wasnt an arguemnt It was a baseless assertion- try reading the post I was responding to dude.

I think you would hear something like that happening.

If you don't want to get shot; don't shoot

Oh so now the puke has a gun too.

All the more reason to drop him in the back.

Plus I might just not want him prowling round to "discover" other family members.

Out of interest how does a christian square the thou shalt not kill issue with the right to kill a burlglar?

Is it? the fact that you don't value life makes me think you will be willing to go out on a killing spree
I didnt say I did not value life, I said I do not value the lives of criminals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4038241.stm

In the UK, if someone breaks into your house, you can't do anything about it... if you do, the burglar can file charges on you. If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them. This is what I'm thankful for this year... I'm thankful my country protects the rights of property owners more than the rights of criminals.

hahahahaha im thankful for comedy threads like this :D

Don't kill. I think it's even better.

Baseless rhetoric.

I suppose you would also try a rape victim for stabbing her attacker to death.

Hey Leg , where do you live , I need a new T.V. :rolleyes:

If thieves actually did know better they wouldnt be in a position to get shot for trying to steal my tv now would they?

We have to agree to disagree here dude- you think a criminals life has value and I dont- consequentially I have no moral problem with shooting a burglar and you do.

But if you do that in a country which regards it as illegal -- like the UK -- then that would make you a criminal, too. Whether or not you have a "moral problem" with it has no bearing on the issue at all. Presumably the burglar has no moral problems with breaking into other peoples' houses and nicking their stuff: it's still illegal.

Frankly, though, if you have "no moral problem" with killing people in such banal circumstances, then you're probably a sociopath. If you keep the murderous impulses in check then you'll probably have quite a successful life -- although chances are you won't enjoy it very much.

It wasnt an arguemnt It was a baseless assertion- try reading the post I was responding to dude.

No it wasn't. You said you would make the assumption that anyone stealing your property also intended to harm your children, and would therefore "get in there first". Here merely pointed out that anyone who takes this approach to life must be a pretty miserable character.

Not in your house.

You see - and I'm sure even brits can follow this - they have already broken the law in respect of my property, therefore I am okay to assume that they have similar disregard for other laws.

Don't break into peoples houses. It is a simple and elegant rule.
It's okay to kill a drugdealer? It's okay to rape a carthief? It's okay to kick the living shit out of a drunk driver?

I didnt say I did not value life, I said I do not value the lives of criminals.

You are ok Brittanic.

I didnt say I did not value life, I said I do not value the lives of criminals.

so what your saying is you don't care for people who do you wrong so if someone walked into you in the street you would be willing to kill them

Try to look at it this way, if the americans lose their TV to a thief, how are they going to receive their daily dose of indoctrination from Fox news?

Thus they become crazed killing machines desperate to rip the flesh from their enemies and make canvases for their yurts before descending from the mountains to pillage Arizona of its comfortable shoes.

I pray God can save texans from their feral animosity

-Samantha-

Oh so now the puke has a gun too.

All the more reason to drop him in the back.

Plus I might just not want him prowling round to "discover" other family members.
If I would be a burglar in the states of course I would carry a gun.

Baseless rhetoric.

I suppose you would also try a rape victim for stabbing her attacker to death.

in america the guy's parents would sue the girl for all she had instead :D

5% of all UK burglars have a gun on them...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4038241.stm

In the UK, if someone breaks into your house, you can't do anything about it... if you do, the burglar can file charges on you. If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them. This is what I'm thankful for this year... I'm thankful my country protects the rights of property owners more than the rights of criminals.

I am also thankful, that you are in Texas and nowhere near me in the Uk, you gun crazy, trigger happy, nutter !

Not in your house.

You see - and I'm sure even brits can follow this - they have already broken the law in respect of my property, therefore I am okay to assume that they have similar disregard for other laws.

Don't break into peoples houses. It is a simple and elegant rule.

I thought 'thou shalt not kill' was somewhat higher up the list than 'thou shalt not steal' though. One doesn't get negated because the other has happened. Most of the justifications here seem to be based on fears of *other* things. If I got up in the night and found someone in the house, I'm going to give them a bloody hefty wallop, but not *kill* them. It's already been said by someone that they would expect the burglar to just be scared by the gun and wait for the police but that if they were in a bad mood they might shoot them anyway. Now, if the burglar has shown that they are scared, and therefore *NOT* a physical threat... then in my book shooting them at this point is premeditated *murder*.

Whats more "wimp like" shooting someone, just being allowed to pull a trigger or actually stopping someone by reasonable force. its easy to pull a trigger but is it really that easy to actually risk yourself for whatever possesions have been taken. Asfar as I know on this subject America has a higher percentage crime rate than the Uk* so the vigilante style of policing your suggesting is clearly not working.


*If this statement is inaccurate please say and give me the stat

Try to look at it this way, if the americans lose their TV to a thief, how are they going to receive their daily dose of indoctrination from Fox news?

Thus they become crazed killing machines desperate to rip the flesh from their enemies and make canvases for their yurts before descending from the mountains to pillage Arizona of its comfortable shoes.

I pray God can save texans from their feral animosity

-Samantha-


you have point im outta here i can stands this bullshit no more

5% of all UK burglars have a gun on them...
2% of burglars wear toupees

Out of interest how does a christian square the thou shalt not kill issue with the right to kill a burlglar?


Who knows. I'm not a christian. I'm a muslim.

2% of burglars wear toupees

And 1 in 4 is left-handed.

2% of burglars wear toupees
those are to be shot on sight :p

And 1 in 4 is left-handed.

4 out of 5 wear girls underwear

Who knows. I'm not a christian. I'm a muslim.
Muslims are also prohibited by their faith to kill

Baseless rhetoric.

I suppose you would also try a rape victim for stabbing her attacker to death.
Might do. There has been this kind of cases in Finland. Stabbing is alright but if you stab the attacker when he has already stopped and backed up, you will get some short of punishment.

4 out of 5 wear girls underwear

Really? How can you tell which is which?

Who knows. I'm not a christian. I'm a muslim.
Does the Koran not say that it is a sin to kill.

If I would be a burglar in the states of course I would carry a gun.

Then you break into my house with a lethal weapon. All the more reason to shoot you first.

You people are just proving my point.

Really? How can you tell which is which?

close inspection and by the pantie line :)

But if you do that in a country which regards it as illegal -- like the UK -- then that would make you a criminal, too. Whether or not you have a "moral problem" with it has no bearing on the issue at all. Presumably the burglar has no moral problems with breaking into other peoples' houses and nicking their stuff: it's still illegal. Indeed , had you read the rest of the thread you would know that I am British and have stated that I wouldnt kill a burglar in the UK- I then went on to state that if I were American as opposed to British then I would kill the burglar (because it wouldnt be illegal)

Frankly, though, if you have "no moral problem" with killing people in such banal circumstances, then you're probably a sociopath. If you keep the murderous impulses in check then you'll probably have quite a successful life -- although chances are you won't enjoy it very much.
Hehe you probably wont be surprised to discover that I disagree with you a little here- I dont have any murderous impulses to keep in check- although I would probably have some if I was burgled;)

I think I have the solution: See, all of you criminal loving liberal-guilt addicts should put up signs that say, "I Respect the Rights of Criminals to Safely Invade My House," that way the thieves will skip robbing my house (where it isn't safe to break-in) and go to yours. This is really the best thing you could do to insure their safetly, and it will further eliminate the risk associated with stealing things from people's homes. Plus, this way I don't have to kill some dipshit because he'll be over at your place enjoying tea and cookies.

Does the Koran not say that it is a sin to kill.

Not against those who attack you or take your property.

I didnt say I did not value life, I said I do not value the lives of criminals.

OK. But if you shot some guy for breaking into your house in the UK, then that would make you... a criminal. Would you then place no value on your own life?

Then you break into my house with a lethal weapon. All the more reason to shoot you first.

You people are just proving my point.

Actually, he just pointed out that if he broke into a house in America, he would be more likely to arm himself because the houseowner (you) would be more likely to be armed. Congratulations, you just made the burglar more dangerous.

I was recently on the recieving end of a burglary in manchester uk. It was the middle of the night they were armed. Being unarmed myself and it being illegal to be armed to the extent of a texan the best and only option is to let them do what they want. Everything taken was replaced by insurance plus a bit more due to depreciation in value since the items were bought.
Were not whimps we are just sensible and dont feel the need to carry a gun to protect ourselves. The majority of people are civilized even robbers and therefore dont want to cause you harm they just want to survive. If your insured its not like you lost anything.
Turned into a fun night of drink and comedy laughing at the situation.
See everythings fine and no guns were needed!

so what your saying is you don't care for people who do you wrong so if someone walked into you in the street you would be willing to kill them

yes, if by 'walked into you in the street' you mean 'broke into my house.'

Not against those who attack you or take your property.

Can you quote that part?

wimps though your forgetting the good old british football hooligans the us government brought in 20 of those to train police in riot control

Might do. There has been this kind of cases in Finland. Stabbing is alright but if you stab the attacker when he has already stopped and backed up, you will get some short of punishment.


WHAT ???

Are you people insane.

How can she even be in control of herself at that point, or should she just "lie back and enjoy it"

Not against those who attack you or take your property.
Would you read
this please (http://islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=49341)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4038241.stm

In the UK, if someone breaks into your house, you can't do anything about it... if you do, the burglar can file charges on you. If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them. This is what I'm thankful for this year... I'm thankful my country protects the rights of property owners more than the rights of criminals.
Haven't you grown up from your kiddie phase of playing cowboy? Ignorance of the UK legal system is to be expected, but this level of immaturity and murderous intent is worrying.

Then you break into my house with a lethal weapon. All the more reason to shoot you first.

You people are just proving my point.
I'd carry it because there are people like you. I wouldn't need one in UK.
And why you think that a criminal is a worse shooter than you are?

Then you break into my house with a lethal weapon. All the more reason to shoot you first.

You people are just proving my point.
5% of all UK burglars have guns on them: UK citizens are prohibitted to have guns
about half of US has a gun in their home: about half the burglars bring a gun into those homes.

We are doing a lot.... but not proving you point. If you don't see that you are in fact retarded

WHAT ???

Are you people insane.

How can she even be in control of herself at that point, or should she just "lie back and enjoy it"

i find chilli peppers in the under pants a good deterant

close inspection and by the pantie line :)

ah, the old Italian scuba method. clever

Actually, he just pointed out that if he broke into a house in America, he would be more likely to arm himself because the houseowner (you) would be more likely to be armed. Congratulations, you just made the burglar more dangerous.

Bah, rubbish.

Obviously if he breaks into my house with a weapon violence is on his mind. It's prima facie. Your palid justifications are meaningless.

If he didn't intend violence he would not need the weapon.

Who knows. I'm not a christian. I'm a muslim.

Muslims aren't allowed to kill burglars. lol

ah, the old Italian scuba method. clever

yea thats the one :)

Bah, rubbish.

Obviously if he breaks into my house with a weapon violence is on his mind. It's prima facie. Your palid justifications are meaningless.

If he didn't intend violence he would not need the weapon.
If he did not fear getting shot he would not bring a gun

Bah, rubbish.

Obviously if he breaks into my house with a weapon violence is on his mind. It's prima facie. Your palid justifications are meaningless.

If he didn't intend violence he would not need the weapon.

Unless he of course didn't intend to use the weapon, but carried it in case he was confronted by the armed houseowner.

If he didn't intend violence he would not need the weapon.

Or mayby he is carrying gun for self protection cause its the right of
any american?!?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4038241.stm

In the UK, if someone breaks into your house, you can't do anything about it... if you do, the burglar can file charges on you. If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them.

I kinda agree. I'm English...and the Tony Martin case really got on my nerves. It's the stupid Labour Government trying to make us afraid of doing anything.

However, where I'm not impressed with America is the extensively liberal gun laws...follow a burglar into the street and kill him? Where does that end?
I think the answer is over 11000 people dead from gun-related incidents every year :mp5: :sniper: :gundge:

Yes, British laws and culture aren't great...but around a dozen people die a year from gun-related incidents. The whole nation is morally outraged by such an incident.
In America, 11,000 people a year die, and the country does blink...infact it goes down to its local wall-mart or bank and gets another rifle, just to be on the safe side.

I know where I'd rather live...England. or Canada, the place is mint. And safe. And generally not the US

5% of all UK burglars have guns on them: UK citizens are prohibitted to have guns
about half of US has a gun in their home: about half the burglars bring a gun into those homes.

We are doing a lot.... but not proving you point. If you don't see that you are in fact retarded

How does the UK, unarmed citizen know which class the burgler falls into. The armed or unarmed one.

And if, as you claim, burglers are just there to take property and not do violence, WHY IN THE HELL ARE THEY BRINGING WEAPONS.

I am not retarded at all.

Plus, in an unarmed society who do these paragons of virtue pick on. The old and the weak. You know that this is true. Next time you see in the newspaper an article about an old woman being beaten to death by burglers, just think, you can thank your stupid laws.

Or mayby he is carrying gun for self protection cause its the right of
any american?!?

ooh, good one.

so what your saying is you don't care for people who do you wrong so if someone walked into you in the street you would be willing to kill them
Nope. One more time
I do not value the lives of criminals, someone who walks into me on the street is not a criminal. English not your first language?

WHAT ???

Are you people insane.

How can she even be in control of herself at that point, or should she just "lie back and enjoy it"
No we just think that's it's not good if people take law into their own hands.
If this happens (or any other incident where self defence has been over limited and too violent) the punishment is rather mild. Basicly it's the same question again. Is raping(burglary) as bad as killing. No.

I kinda agree. I'm English...and the Tony Martin case really got on my nerves. It's the stupid Labour Government trying to make us afraid of doing anything.

However, where I'm not impressed with America is the extensively liberal gun laws...follow a burglar into the street and kill him? Where does that end?
I think the answer is over 11000 people dead from gun-related incidents every year :mp5: :sniper: :gundge:

Yes, British laws and culture aren't great...but around a dozen people die a year from gun-related incidents. The whole nation is morally outraged by such an incident.
In America, 11,000 people a year die, and the country does blink...infact it goes down to its local wall-mart or bank and gets another rifle, just to be on the safe side.

I know where I'd rather live...England. or Canada, the place is mint. And safe. And generally not the US


1. You can't kill him in the street, that is illegal.

2. most of those gunshot deaths are suicides.

1. You can't kill him in the street, that is illegal.

2. most of those gunshot deaths are suicides.

Still just a teensy weensy bit higher than the uk, though, isn't it?

I wonder what the British Troops serving in Iraq, in particular the Black Watch troops currently covering US Soldier's arses in Iraq would say to this topic 'The UK is a bunch of wimps' ?

Or mayby he is carrying gun for self protection cause its the right of
any american?!?

Actually, no one has the 'right' to carry a gun while committing a crime.

Bah, rubbish.

Obviously if he breaks into my house with a weapon violence is on his mind. It's prima facie. Your palid justifications are meaningless.

If he didn't intend violence he would not need the weapon.
Of course I'd need one as I know how murderous the houseowners in the states are. Your tv set is not worth my life.

No we just think that's it's not good if people take law into their own hands.
If this happens (or any other incident where self defence has been over limited and too violent) the punishment is rather mild. Basicly it's the same question again. Is raping(burglary) as bad as killing. No.

Great. Well apparently self defense is bollocks there then. On the other hand, doesn't finland have one of the highest homicide rates in the world?

I'm still failing to see how we're the wimps when we just kick the s--t out of the criminal, as opposed to using our under-the-bed armoury which our six year old children so frequently stumble across and use to blow away their sister with.

I honestly believe criminals have no human rights the moment they break into a premesis, but if you wish to act animalistic in your retaliation then some of your rights are naturally forefit too.

I don't know many british people who didn't back tony martin, and considering most english laws come from europe, there was a generally level of disgust from the british public. The flip-side of the coin is most thieves that break into our houses don't have a gun, and neither do we. Because if most could afford a gun (a more rare than not quality to the average low life gangster) they wouldn't be robbing houses for drug money. Now you do get your higher up criminals packing firepower, but most of these are yardie class hooligans shooting one another in drive bys up nottingham, and your more covert underworld lock-stock gangsters, who know to keep their gun-activities to a low, otherwise scotland yard and the like will swoop down with more armoured riot gear and firepower than the thugs can handle. It's more of an unwritten code of honour that these criminals keep a low profile, and so the police wont use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

You might say our criminals aren't "with the times" but truthfully, I consider this entirely benificial.

OK. But if you shot some guy for breaking into your house in the UK, then that would make you... a criminal. Would you then place no value on your own life?
Bloody hell dude read the thread! I have already posted that I would not kill a burglar in the UK.

1. You can't kill him in the street, that is illegal.


You can in Texas!

Still just a teensy weensy bit higher than the uk, though, isn't it?

Take out suicides. Adjust for general homocide.

Oh look, the UK is more dangerous than the US.

Plus we have far less burglary, (like by a seventh), go figure :rolleyes:

Nope. One more time
I do not value the lives of criminals, someone who walks into me on the street is not a criminal. English not your first language?
If your arguement was that it was your right to defend your self and your property you would kill someone if forced to I think we might understand. It is the fact that you seem to want to kill someone and that you see no value in a human life that would make you no better than a murder.

Great. Well apparently self defense is bollocks there then. On the other hand, doesn't finland have one of the highest homicide rates in the world?
Nothing compared to US

You can in Texas!

No you can't.

Unless he's coming back.

Great. Well apparently self defense is bollocks there then. On the other hand, doesn't finland have one of the highest homicide rates in the world?
Shooting someone who's not threatening you anymore is not self defence. It's murder.

Nothing compared to US

Oh, I beg to differ sir.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4038241.stm

In the UK, if someone breaks into your house, you can't do anything about it... if you do, the burglar can file charges on you. If someone breaks into my American home, I can shoot them.. and here in Texas, I can follow them outside and shoot them. This is what I'm thankful for this year... I'm thankful my country protects the rights of property owners more than the rights of criminals.

I'm thankful my country doesn't view the easily replaceable personal possessions of an individual over the not so easily replaceable life of a person.

Jeez people, you've given your people the right to bear arms. Do you seriously believe that even half the population of your country is responsible enough for that. For crying out loud, you voted a trigger happy man as President for the second time runnning.......did you not learn the first time round?

no i think you'll find finland has the highest suicide rate in the world

no i think you'll find finland has the highest suicide rate in the world

Thought that was sweden.

And now american brags it's better to have low burgulary than homicide... I like to think to the general deaths in the police force by ratio too, and the higher number of rapes, car thefts, etc.

The only thing I'd want a gun for is to keep the american judges out of my country.

Thought that was sweden.

errm not sure i was always told finland but i will conceed that one as im not 100%

Oh, I beg to differ sir.
Beg as much as you like
but 0.4 per 1000 in US
0.2 per 1000 in Finland.

I'm thankful my country doesn't view the easily replaceable personal possessions of an individual over the not so easily replaceable life of a person.

Jeez people, you've given your people the right to bear arms. Do you seriously believe that even half the population of your country is responsible enough for that. For crying out loud, you voted a trigger happy man as President for the second time runnning.......did you not learn the first time round?



Obviously not. I'd tell them to stop thinking with their guns but the concept of thinking is clearly foreign to them.

no i think you'll find finland has the highest suicide rate in the world
japan.
but we're high on the list

Oh, I beg to differ sir.

Theres very little homicides in finland. And most of them
are related to drug dealing. (dealer bangs another dealer)

japan.
but we're high on the list


ahhh i'm worng sorry

Beg as much as you like
but 0.4 per 1000 in US
0.2 per 1000 in Finland.

Nope, that's wrong.

1. You can't kill him in the street, that is illegal.

2. most of those gunshot deaths are suicides.

you said you could follow him outside...

oh, and to correct my statistics...there are 13,000 HOMICIDES in the US every year that are gun-related...add to that around 27,000 suicides...

and how come canadians (who own more guns per person than americans) dont have a death rate anywhere near that of the us!?!
i think it's culture (ie. yours is violent and disgusting)

If your arguement was that it was your right to defend your self and your property you would kill someone if forced to I think we might understand.
It is right to defend myself and my property, in this thread we have been arguing over what exactly constitutes "a threat to myself and my property" . I for example consider the act of someone illegally entering my home to be a threat to myself and my property.You (I am making an educated guess here) do not.
It is the fact that you seem to want to kill someone and that you see no value in a human life that would make you no better than a murder.
We appear to be missing the wood for the trees here. I dont want to kill, however I would if I felt my family were in danger.
I realise we have a difference of opinion regarding the value of a criminals life. However the fact that I place no value on a criminals life does not mean I actually desire to kill them.

Obviously not. I'd tell them to stop thinking with their guns but the concept of thinking is clearly foreign to them.


Good job there on, well everything, from whichever screwup country you are from.

I'm thankful my country doesn't view the easily replaceable personal possessions of an individual over the not so easily replaceable life of a person.

Jeez people, you've given your people the right to bear arms. Do you seriously believe that even half the population of your country is responsible enough for that. For crying out loud, you voted a trigger happy man as President for the second time runnning.......did you not learn the first time round?

You go girl... good luck though. They don't seem to be listening let alone learning. I'd be interested to see how keen they were to shoot people if you flew them over to Iraq and sat them on the front line where their lives would really depend on it. thing is, they still think it's all fun and games and because guns are so common over there they don't stop to think about the real dangers.

Nope, that's wrong.
Prove me wrong

You go girl... good luck though. They don't seem to be listening let alone learning. I'd be interested to see how keen they were to shoot people if you flew them over to Iraq and sat them on the front line where their lives would really depend on it. thing is, they still think it's all fun and games and because guns are so common over there they don't stop to think about the real dangers.

there's a difference between genuine mistrust for your NEIGHBOUR and genuine mistrust for a group of people who have declared a jihad on you and your country and say every day that they want to kill you.
if they can't tell the difference between the two, then they have serious problems....as i expect

Good job there on, well everything, from whichever screwup country you are from.


From a screwed up country called America.

You go girl... good luck though. They don't seem to be listening let alone learning. I'd be interested to see how keen they were to shoot people if you flew them over to Iraq and sat them on the front line where their lives would really depend on it. thing is, they still think it's all fun and games and because guns are so common over there they don't stop to think about the real dangers.

thus says the female who demands equal rights but knows she will never be put within two hundred miles of a combat zone.

yeah, you go girl.

For all you know I have been in combat,

From a screwed up country called America.

well then you are just plain ungrateful for the US, and what made it a great nation.

Lacademon

If you can have the first shot at burglar why can't you use
stun gun? He wont rape you after that.

And if my child is downstairs or in another room, I should just cower there.

And frankly I'm not waiting for him to get the jump on me, I want the jump on him.

The rule is simple: If you don't want to get shot, STAY OUT OF MY HOUSE.

Not that hard really.

could you please tell me where your house is so i can stay out of a 10 mile radius...

http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm#murd
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
about women
http://truecrimefanatic.com/Female%20Homicide%20Rate.htm
3 first ones.

Lacademon

If you can have the first shot at burglar why can't you use
stun gun? He wont rape you after that.

Stun guns don't work. Duh.

I need to be sure. :rolleyes:

thus says the female who demands equal rights but knows she will never be put within two hundred miles of a combat zone.

yeah, you go girl.

For all you know I have been in combat,

and you want a medal for this?
if you have, then you were doing your job...well done. also equally well done to anyone working in macdonalds who made a big mac today.
i see the two as about the same...

could you please tell me where your house is so i can stay out of a 10 mile radius...

Just don't break in, that's all.

[QUOTE=Brittanic States]It is right to defend myself and my property, in this thread we have been arguing over what exactly constitutes "a threat to myself and my property" . I for example consider the act of someone illegally entering my home to be a threat to myself and my property.You (I am making an educated guess here) do not.[QUOTE]

Naturally, however I am wondering whether it is the simple act of entering itself that poses the threat. Sure, if someone were to charge in waving a gun/knife/bat around then yep, definate threat. But just entering?

Besides, surely by pulling out a gun you are simple exacerbating the situation. If you had any respect, or cared at all for your family, you would realise that violence is not necessarily the best defense. It takes a really stupid person to pull a gun on an already armed person when you are the only one in the situation with something to loose. Not everyone is qualified to dole out a fitting punishment, but by arming yourself and declaring yourself protectorate of your belongings you are assuming just that role.

thus says the female who demands equal rights but knows she will never be put within two hundred miles of a combat zone.

yeah, you go girl.

For all you know I have been in combat,

as far as I remember I wasn't directing my comments directly at you but at the general opinions that seem to be being displayed on this message board and if you are sexist enough to believe that a woman wouldn't be put in a combat zone you need help too. maybe you have been in combat. maybe I have too!

deaths by violence
http://www.dzdz.com/peace/peace/countries.htm

and you want a medal for this?
if you have, then you were doing your job...well done. also equally well done to anyone working in macdonalds who made a big mac today.
i see the two as about the same...

Medal ?

What the hell are you talking about now.

Just don't break in, that's all.

Thanks for the directions (to this thread, NOT your house).

thus says the female who demands equal rights but knows she will never be put within two hundred miles of a combat zone.

yeah, you go girl.

For all you know I have been in combat,

And having been in combat therefore makes you qualified to shoot a burglar?

How about you stop being so damn proud of yourself for having the ability to shoot people, and start giving yourself a real reason to be proud by AVOIDING THE NEED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You go girl... good luck though. They don't seem to be listening let alone learning. I'd be interested to see how keen they were to shoot people if you flew them over to Iraq and sat them on the front line where their lives would really depend on it. thing is, they still think it's all fun and games and because guns are so common over there they don't stop to think about the real dangers.

Okay, let's try to debunk a few myths right here.

1) I don't like it when someone breaks into my house.
2) I love my family.
3) I'm in college and a member of the Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance)
4) I'm a Texan and I hate George Bush and his illegal war in Iraq
5) The war in Iraq is illegal, not because the UN didn't sign on to it, but because the constitution was not followed and war was never made official.
6) I've marched and particitaped in anti-war protests at Crawford, Dallas and Austin Texas
7) I voted for Ralph Nader
8) If someone breaks into my house, I'm going to protect my family from the intuder, if I have to, I may shoot the person.
9) I don't want to kill anybody.
10) If I kill an invader in my house, I won't feel bad about it.

well then you are just plain ungrateful for the US, and what made it a great nation.

i think i must be missing a major section of world history here...

1) i didn't know i had anything to be so grateful about???

2) when was the US a great nation? when it bombed 47 other countries in the last half of the twentieth century? when it initiated acts of genocide against various peoples? or when it killed 100,000 iraqi citizens, tortured some innocent people and brought instability, violence and appalling living conditions to iraq?
answers on a postcard

deaths by violence
http://www.dzdz.com/peace/peace/countries.htm

Yeah, but we include our suicide in that. So if you factor that out we are much safer.

Now enough with your statistical games.

Okay, let's try to debunk a few myths right here.

1) I don't like it when someone breaks into my house.
2) I love my family.
3) I'm in college and a member of the Feminist Majority Leadership Alliance)
4) I'm a Texan and I hate George Bush and his illegal war in Iraq
5) The war in Iraq is illegal, not because the UN didn't sign on to it, but because the constitution was not followed and war was never made official.
6) I've marched and particitaped in anti-war protests at Crawford, Dallas and Austin Texas
7) I voted for Ralph Nader
8) If someone breaks into my house, I'm going to protect my family from the intuder, if I have to, I may shoot the person.
9) I don't want to kill anybody.
10) If I kill an invader in my house, I won't feel bad about it.

that, I whole-heartedly accept, and I have much respect for you...even as an English male.
the most respect goes for accepting the gun laws in your country, and what they mean...without making some huge bravado show about them...
you are a legend...keep on protesting!

Stun guns don't work. Duh.

I need to be sure. :rolleyes:

You are from USA, your contry has desinged amaising military
technology. Including electric stun guns, presented in jackass.
Did you not really know this or do you just like to shoot people?