NationStates Jolt Archive

“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
-Thomas Jefferson, 33, in the Declaration of Independence, 1776

I was reading up on the first American Revolution and it occurred to me that there are many similarities between the oppressive English government of the 1700’s and the oppressive government of today.

The English government had the Magna Carta to limit the king’s power, the writ of habeas corpus to defend the people from the state taking ungovernable actions to prosecute citizens, and The English Bill of Rights that spelled out a citizen’s natural and civil rights. Like all governments do eventually, however, the English government became an oppressive and tyrannical one. The English had generic, prewritten search warrants signed beforehand by a judge so that homes could be searched without wait or without the law looking over them. Politicians consistently voted towards what benefited their wallets the most. Corruption was prevalent among leaders.

The United States government was founded on so many of the values that the English government was intended to have. The Declaration of Independence from England stated a man’s God-given rights and the wrongdoings of King George II. The Constitution laid down the nature, functions, and limits of the government. The Bill of Rights stated many of the same things that the British had.

America is on the same path that the British followed 228 years earlier. Under the Patriot Act the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) can write their own search warrants. America is banning basic human rights to homosexuals; remember, “… all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”(Declaration of Independence). The Government goes to great lengths to protect corporations like tobbacco companies that pay us millions. It is rediculous to think that oil and defense contracting is not on Bush’s mind and in some way responsible for driving the War in Iraq. The world has a modern Sons of Liberty except they’re now so easily shrugged off as “terrorists” and threats to peace and freedom when in their minds they are fighting an oppressive superpower. Maybe they are.

In my opinion, America has effectively become exactly what we fought to escape. Will there be another Sugar Act? Another violent takeover in our lifetimes? Will it be non-violent? Who will leave the union first? Who will lead the fight on both sides?

That’s of course assuming you think there will be one. I welcome all sides to the debate but would appreciate it if we could do it as adults.

While I also believe the current administration is highly disagreeable...to say the least...I think that a revolution goes too far. The founding fathers would be disappointed to see democracy gone astray.

Besides, it's too easy to follow up a revolution with a new dictatorship.

I think Americans are too lazy for revolution.

And I can say that because I'm an American.

. America is banning basic human rights to homosexuals; remember, “… all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”(Declaration of Independence).
Of course, to my knowledge they have not had these rights since the founding of the country. This should have no bearing on the argument unless you believe America has been ripe for revolution for the past 220 years.

why would there be a revolt when bush recived the largest number of votes than any candidate in history?

I think Americans are too lazy for revolution.

And I can say that because I'm an American.
Not so much so...we really can get quite ruffled up when we're given cold fries.

why would there be a revolt when bush recived the largest number of votes than any candidate in history?
Because his opponent followed up with 4 million less votes than him. Which is not so much considering the U.S. had about 100 million voters.

Not so much so...we really can get quite ruffled up when we're given cold fries.

I should hope we haven't grown so shallow as to revolt over some cold fries : P

why would there be a revolt when bush recived the largest number of votes than any candidate in history?
The American Revolution was not led by the majority only about 1/3 of the population supported it.

I should hope we haven't grown so shallow as to revolt over some cold fries : P
Well they taste...really nazi.

Did I say Nazi? I meant nasty. The two sound so much the same.

No one is denying homosexuals their rights. Most republicans are all for a civil union that would have everything marriage would...just wouldn't call it marriage. The patriot act does technically infringe on people's rights...it needs to be altered a bit, but it's a necesary evil. I don't know where you're gettin this, America is hardly opressive. Yes, the government does have a lot of control. But it's necesary. To have order, you must give up some rights. America has a perfect balance of it. The more liberal the government, the closer to chaos it is.

Well they taste...really nazi.

Did I say Nazi? I meant nasty. The two sound so much the same.

I have to agree with you there. They taste like cardboard.

Of course, to my knowledge they have not had these rights since the founding of the country. This should have no bearing on the argument unless you believe America has been ripe for revolution for the past 220 years.
Yes, but only now is it an object of true contraversy. We almost hit a revolution in the 60's over an African-American's rights even though they were oppressed throughout history.

Yes, but only now is it an object of true contraversy. We almost hit a revolution in the 60's over an African-American's rights even though they were oppressed throughout history.
It never hit close to "revolution". Riots and things like that yes, but nothing close to 1776 or 1861.

Yes, but only now is it an object of true contraversy. We almost hit a revolution in the 60's over an African-American's rights even though they were oppressed throughout history.

But this time it isn't nearly as violent...oh wait, it isn't violent at all.

The more liberal the government, the closer to chaos it is.
The only reason liberals have every been chaotic in history is because they oppose the government's right wing choices. A liberal government would only have a chaotic conservative party.

The only reason liberals have every been chaotic in history is because they oppose the government's right wing choices. A liberal government would only have a chaotic conservative party.

Our government isn't very right wing at all...at the most I'd consider it just right of center. On a scale of 1-5, 1 being center, 5 being ultra nazi, neo-conservo-fascism, the right wing is about a 2.

But this time it isn't nearly as violent...oh wait, it isn't violent at all.
Well having no rights and not having the right to legally express your love are two different things

Our government isn't very right wing at all...at the most I'd consider it just right of center. On a scale of 1-5, 1 being center, 5 being ultra nazi, neo-conservo-fascism, the right wing is about a 2.
I'm not saying the government is always conservative just that the left opposes right wing decisions. I should've made that more clear.

That's ridiculous! Some people may not agree with the President, but Americans are reasonable people. Most people, even hard core Bush haters, probably have other things on their mind right now. Life goes on, people. America is as close to revolution as are turkeys.

That's ridiculous! Some people may not agree with the President, but Americans are reasonable people. Most people, even hard core Bush haters, probably have other things on their mind right now. Life goes on, people. America is as close to revolution as are turkeys.


Hey! I heard the wild turkeys planning to stage a massive demonstration to ban Thanksgiving! So don't diss the turkeys! They'll have their revenge!

That's ridiculous! Some people may not agree with the President, but Americans are reasonable people. Most people, even hard core Bush haters, probably have other things on their mind right now. Life goes on, people. America is as close to revolution as are turkeys.
its not only against the Bush Administration but against the undeniably corrupt state of our government.

There is one word for this type of talk:

Treason.

However, if you would like to debate it, I have amde a political debate site at http://logal.proboards27.com/index.cgi. CHeck it out.

There is one word for this type of talk:

Treason.

However, if you would like to debate it, I have amde a political debate site at http://logal.proboards27.com/index.cgi. CHeck it out.



Actually, even if this is treason, there isn't much the government can to do. We are allowed by the first admendment to question the government- Its part of government control. Plus, treason has pretty much been called 'terrorism' lately, and I highly doubt they'll even bother to consider this.

That is, unless Bush gets another "Patriot" act approved.

There is one word for this type of talk:

Treason.


if you read my first quote treason was not only allowed but encouraged by the founding fathers.

It was indipendance from a tyranistic country that was miles away, that was also a fraction of its size. They did not encourage treason, because Treason would have made the country fall apart.

It was indipendance from a tyranistic country that was miles away, that was also a fraction of its size. They did not encourage treason, because Treason would have made the country fall apart.
again i must refer to: “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
-Thomas Jefferson, 33, in the Declaration of Independence, 1776

There is one word for this type of talk:

Treason.

However, if you would like to debate it, I have amde a political debate site at http://logal.proboards27.com/index.cgi. CHeck it out.


What? And open myself up to further allegations of trreason? I think not. Besides, I don't believe that discussing when/if this country might face another revolution or making the statement that our current system is corrupt should be met with accusations of treason. Wait until someone actually takes up arms or leads a movement to overthrow the federal goverment. Then you can sart bandying about terms like treason. Until then, it's free speech.

Here's an interesting article. I don't agree with everything Patrick Buchanan says, but when a die hard conservative like Buchanan writes an article like this, then even a left-wing radical pinko commie like me has to wonder where were heading.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41580

Might not have a lot to do with the question of if America will descend intoa revolution, but WTF. Left, Right, and the vast majority of us who reside somewhere in between, enjoy.

Oh, for the record I chose 11-50 years. America doesn't care enough now but that won't last forever.

I don't think there will be a revolution- at least not one that dismantles the USA gov't as we know it. In four years, I am pretty sure there will be enough dissatisfaction with the rightwing nutjobs to vote in a much more moderate rep or an acceptable dem.
But I do think the USA is starting to feel a new social revolution, just as the civil rights of the sixties. I just hope it remains one of peaceful protest, ala MLK Jr.

ALthought I happen to agree wiht the current administration I can understand the frustration on the part of the left....However I do not believe we will ever see another revolution....As a nation we are still closely knit...Thanx guys have a nice day...

I don't think there will be a revolution- at least not one that dismantles the USA gov't as we know it. In four years, I am pretty sure there will be enough dissatisfaction with the rightwing nutjobs to vote in a much more moderate rep or an acceptable dem.
But I do think the USA is starting to feel a new social revolution, just as the civil rights of the sixties. I just hope it remains one of peaceful protest, ala MLK Jr.
I hope you're right. but I see another Reagan generation coming

a good public poll

I think Americans are too lazy for revolution.

And I can say that because I'm an American.

It is so sad that you are so right! We are George A. Romero's zombies! when will they wake up sir?!

Not any time soon, but depending on how events unfold, there could be a revolution in about 100 years.

No matter what happens, I think the United States will not be the world's superpower in 100-150 years. We will either fall to revolution, be conquered or be peacefully surpassed. No great power stays so forever.

Not any time soon, but depending on how events unfold, there could be a revolution in about 100 years.

No matter what happens, I think the United States will not be the world's superpower in 100-150 years. We will either fall to revolution, be conquered or be peacefully surpassed. No great power stays so forever.


I happen to agree with this. No great nation has ever been around forever, but history wise, the US as we know it today is the most powerful nation in history. Whether people agree or disagree with me there, I believe it is the truth. As for the US falling in 100-150 years, it is hard to say when it really will happen just because of the technology and such we have today.

"kingdoms will rise to power
but kingdoms fall to dust"
- Numbered Days - Killswitch Engage

eventually, America will be defeated and destroyed, whether its from within, or from other sources.

though i beleive if the U.S continues on as its currently going, the defeat from within part will be more likely

yeah ok we will start a revolution just as soon as the holidays are over

wait wait

make that after the superbowl

nooooo maybe after the NCAA championships

oh geez i dont want to revolt in summer, its too damned hot maybe next fall.....

omj John Titor@!! (http://www.johntitor.com) :eek: :rolleyes:

Bush won the election by the largest majority count in the history of our country, and yes John Kerry got a few million less...but if a revolution happens...remember which side has more people and is more pro-gun :p :sniper: :D

Honestly, I'm more worried about an internal domination.

I've always considered the stereotypical democrat or liberal to be bloody insane: the people who most need to be able to defend themselves from the other side are trying to take their own guns away, while the republicans have the MILITARY on their side.

I've always considered the stereotypical democrat or liberal to be bloody insane: the people who most need to be able to defend themselves from the other side are trying to take their own guns away, while the republicans have the MILITARY on their side.
That is a gigantic oversimplification. The constitution was set up in such a way that a coup de tat is almost impossible. The only way there could be a real revolution is if the majority of America wanted it. And since the Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik got fewer than 100,000 votes, I'd say that's unlikely.

Bush won the election by the largest majority count in the history of our country, and yes John Kerry got a few million less...but if a revolution happens...remember which side has more people and is more pro-gun :p :sniper: :D
I think you'll find if there is a revolution that the people leading it will be non-violent; starting boycotts of gasoline, refusing military sevice, things like that. If we see a turnover of power I doubt there will be much blood spilled towards the government (the rebels might be killed by the police and national guard though). It worked for Gandhi right?

why would there be a revolt when bush recived the largest number of votes than any candidate in history?

Because he also recieved the most votes against him than any other president in history. :)

No one is denying homosexuals their rights. Most republicans are all for a civil union that would have everything marriage would...just wouldn't call it marriage. The patriot act does technically infringe on people's rights...it needs to be altered a bit, but it's a necesary evil. I don't know where you're gettin this, America is hardly opressive. Yes, the government does have a lot of control. But it's necesary. To have order, you must give up some rights. America has a perfect balance of it. The more liberal the government, the closer to chaos it is.

Hardly oppressive?

*cough* PMRC. The PMRC, a lovely little branch of the FCC, created those Parental Advisory stickers. They're also the ones who censor the hell out of nearly everything.

Last year, soon after Bush's declaration of war against Iraq, a man was walking through a mall in either Ohio or Iowa... wearing a shirt that had the slogan "Give Peace A Chance", complete with a large, tye-dyed peace symbol. He talked to a total of five people.

The first three were a group of teenagers, one of whom commented "Your shirt rocks, man." The other two were a couple, who simply asked if his shirt was anti-Bush or anti-war.

The man was escorted out of the mall by security. When asked by the man wearing the shirt, one officer claimed, "You're been taken away for disrupting the peace."

Disrupting the peace? Since when was it illegal to talk to a few people while wearing a peace-promoting shirt? Seems a little fascist to me.

Hardly oppressive?

*cough* PMRC. The PMRC, a lovely little branch of the FCC, created those Parental Advisory stickers. They're also the ones who censor the hell out of nearly everything..

I hated the PMRC over a decade ago. They're stupid little stickers. I think the FCC has gone overboard, but censoring titties on TV or talk of anal play on the radio is hardly oppressive.

Last year, soon after Bush's declaration of war against Iraq, a man was walking through a mall in either Ohio or Iowa... wearing a shirt that had the slogan "Give Peace A Chance", complete with a large, tye-dyed peace symbol. He talked to a total of five people.

The man was escorted out of the mall by security. When asked by the man wearing the shirt, one officer claimed, "You're been taken away for disrupting the peace."

Disrupting the peace? Since when was it illegal to talk to a few people while wearing a peace-promoting shirt? Seems a little fascist to me.

I agree that escorting the guy out was bone-headed, but a mall is a private venue and they have the right to ask anyone they want to take a hike. People go there to shop, not to get prosylatized to.

You're quoting me out of context.

He did not force his opinion on any of those five people. They were the ones who talked to him first. They asked questions. It was not like he had ran around screaming that the war was "Blood for Oil", or that Bush is the Anti-Christ (although I do have a funny story similar to that).

About Bush being the Anti-Christ.....

Years ago, I was waiting with my dad in the lines at the grocery store.... and I saw one of those absurd tabloids (I don't remember which one it was). The main headline was "THE ANTI-CHRIST IS ON EARTH AS WE SPEAK!" My dad turned to me when I pointed the article out to him. "Yes, honey. He is. He's a Republican."

..My dad doesn't support any political party. He's not even registered to vote.

I don't think that there will ever be another American Revolution. The government-media propaganda achine is just too good.

I've always considered the stereotypical democrat or liberal to be bloody insane: the people who most need to be able to defend themselves from the other side are trying to take their own guns away, while the republicans have the MILITARY on their side.
Would the military not simply side with whoever the government is? I agree that, as the most heavily armed side, the right-wing side of a civil war would win. ;)

There will never be a successful revolt in Amreica. The only way you will get an abrupt non-democratic change in government is if the military stages a coup.


To stage a successful revolution you need one of the following:

Massive overwhelming support from the population - which would be represented in voting anyway, so you would win at the polls.

or

Some independent means of support - provided by a foreigh power (N. Vietnam sponsoring the Viet Cong) or the sale of some very valuable commodity to the world (cocaine as exported by the FARC in Colombia). America has no enemies capable of financing a revolution and the rest of the world can survive without American TV, movies or software.

or

Overwhelming firepower (like the factories of the North were able to outgun those of the South) and the only force possessing overwhelming firepower in America is the military.

In summary: you can revolt, but you are doomed to failure unless the military backs you.

While I also believe the current administration is highly disagreeable...to say the least...I think that a revolution goes too far. The founding fathers would be disappointed to see democracy gone astray.

Besides, it's too easy to follow up a revolution with a new dictatorship.
Agreed - the best path to change is one that follows non-violence. And there have indeed been nonviolent revolutions, or revolutionary movements

All these bullshit ideas of Bush totalitarianism would be all find and dandy, had Congress not approved of the Iraq invasion, had congress not approved all of his military actions, and had Congress not approved the Patrioct Act.

For the love of God, stop whining just because you aren't King of the world.

personally i think america is in for a wake up call very soon. and btw. in a revolt/coup. all you would really need is the full support Marines and Airforce and Special forces. the regular army is useless in todays age of technology.

but thats what i think.

signed,

a crazy Texan.

There will never be a successful revolt in Amreica. The only way you will get an abrupt non-democratic change in government is if the military stages a coup.


To stage a successful revolution you need one of the following:

Massive overwhelming support from the population - which would be represented in voting anyway, so you would win at the polls.

or

Some independent means of support - provided by a foreigh power (N. Vietnam sponsoring the Viet Cong) or the sale of some very valuable commodity to the world (cocaine as exported by the FARC in Colombia). America has no enemies capable of financing a revolution and the rest of the world can survive without American TV, movies or software.

or

Overwhelming firepower (like the factories of the North were able to outgun those of the South) and the only force possessing overwhelming firepower in America is the military.

In summary: you can revolt, but you are doomed to failure unless the military backs you.

Unless, of couse, Bush royally pisses off the Saudi Arabian shiks- they don't supply 70% of the world with oil without becoming obscenly rich. "An enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine," and thus, any military enemy of ours, or any competitors (such as the EU, perhaps?) with ridiculous amounts of money and a good reason, could take over, or "liberate" us from our "tyrannical" and "fascist" government. Its feasible - all it has to do is happen, I suppose.

and I agree with the crazy texan, but in a much more sophisticated and regally British manner.
signed,
a Francophobe and Anglophile

Privelege
There is one word for this type of talk, Treason:

Incorrect, under United States Law there is only one defintation of Treason. It is found in Secton 3, Article 3 of the United States Constitution.

I quote
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

You may look this up here http://www.midnightbeach.com/jon/US-Constitution.htm#3 or in any social studies book with a copy of the Constitution. If your book does not have a copy of the US Constitution you are either not living in the states, or something is horroribly wrong with your local school/college.

Discussing the possiblity of revolt is not treason, raising arms in revolt, or giving aide to Osama would be.

Revolution would be rather tricky when the core of the Opposition are pacifists.

Considering how much, if not practically all, of the hatred for Bush is based on hatred for violence in general stemming from the war in Iraq, the number of people willing to actually use violence against the present Administration is small indeed.

All naitons must someday fall, but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

Here is an observation on this subject:
"When Fascism comes to this nation it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."- Upton Sinclair, It Can't Happen Here, 1936

The founding fathers would be disappointed to see democracy gone astray.

As we should also but they would of been even more disappointed I believe if our Republic was to go astray.

All naitons must someday fall, but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

What if some administration 20 years from now was to take the knife to Government spending? Threatening to slash military spending, farmers subsidies, medicare and veterans pensions by half. Maybe in a last desperate attempt to pay back the excessive deficit spending of the "Bush" years, before the Chinese banks forclose. Would the army stand for such a deeply unpopular move?