NationStates Jolt Archive

Over the past few days a bad thing has been happening in that former soviet nation. The two main presidential candidates(Yushchenko the pro-Europe candidate and Yanukovych, the Pro-russian candidate) are in heated debate on who was the winner. Yanukovych claims victory, yet international Observers and Yushchenko are crying foul. Moscow, however, believes that their guy won. Putin even made TWO visits to Kiev to promote Yanukovych. As the situation begins to boil, one question remains: Is Ukraines democracy powerful enough to hold out? Or will the nation erupt into civil war?

Post your thoughts.

Heres the story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election%2C_2004)

Come on guys! Voice your thoughts!

Or do you not care about the future of Europe, the EU, and NATO?

*sigh*

I guess no one cares...

Ukraine will probably be in a civil war...The Russians will help out the side that wants to reunite with Russia but I dont know if the UN or USA will be involved in this(we dont want another frickin cold war)

If it does become civil war, the international community as a whole should remain outside and neutral. We can have preferences, but it is an internal Ukrainian matter, let them sort it out themselves!

I think it will. The opposition is obviously very large, but sooner or later, those who voted for Yanukovich will speak out, and the two may come in conflict. However, this is a long time coming. Half the country is Ukranian, and the other half is Russian, especially in the Crimea. I expect the Crimeans to take this oppritunity to try and declare another republic, and if things get too ugly, Putin may send the Russian army to the Crimea "for protection", or some crap like that. It may end up being a land-grab for Russia, although they certainly won't get the Western provinces, or even Kiev.

If it does become civil war, the international community as a whole should remain outside and neutral. We can have preferences, but it is an internal Ukrainian matter, let them sort it out themselves!

Thats what they said about Rwanda.

Y'know what happend? Genocide happened.

If civil war errupts in the Ukraine, I'm going to fight for the Orange as a volunteer, I swear to God...

If it does become civil war, the international community as a whole should remain outside and neutral. We can have preferences, but it is an internal Ukrainian matter, let them sort it out themselves!
But this does deserve the international community's attention. For one, it'll decide the fate of Eastern Europe. For another, there is a chance that it may turn into genocide. In Sarejevo, different ethnic groups lived together under Tito, but soon started killing eachother.

(Just to let you guys know...

I have a picture of Yushchenko as my background. Seriously.)

I have Ukrainian blood, this is very sad.

(Just to let you guys know...

I have a picture of Yushchenko as my background. Seriously.)

What political party does he belong to? Are Ukrainians supporting a left-ring revolt or a right-wing revolt. Please explain to me the politics of both candidates (I really am clueless about the 2 candidates in question there :( )

Come on guys! Voice your thoughts!

Or do you not care about the future of Europe, the EU, and NATO?
I don't care about NATO. It should be abolished.

What political party does he belong to? Are Ukrainians supporting a left-ring revolt or a right-wing revolt. Please explain to me the politics of both candidates (I really am clueless about the 2 candidates in question there :( )

Here ye go. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko)

The main story is on the first post of mine.

I have Ukrainian blood, this is very sad.

And so do I(born in Odessa, Ukraine though my screen name will fool you ;) ) perhaps this will be our peoples chance to finally free themselves from the control of the Russians....

Yushchenko isn't exactly right wing or left wing, he's the "democratic" alternative to the currently Russian controled Ukrainian government. The Orange uprising isn't just against the current Ukrainian regime, its a revolt against a non-democratic, Russian controled Ukraine. These people want to break away from the east, and begin the process of reform which would make them a modern European democracy. They have my full support.

What political party does he belong to? Are Ukrainians supporting a left-ring revolt or a right-wing revolt. Please explain to me the politics of both candidates (I really am clueless about the 2 candidates in question there :( )
I'd describe him more as right-of-center. He supports economic intergration with the West, and hopes to encourage Western investment and such in his country. In fact, the only thing that the US can't like about him is that he wants to withdraw the Ukrainian brigade from Iraq.

the only thing that the US can't like about him is that he wants to withdraw the Ukrainian brigade from Iraq.

+ he wants a good relation with Europe and in the long run will try to be a candidate.

I don't imagine that there'll be civil war. If there is, gosh, it might be rather bloody serious. The Ukraine has a pretty significant military. I'm under the impression that the east -the industrial heartland- primarily backs the pro-Moscow candidate, and would probably wipe the floor with the Catholic farmers in the west if it came to blows, but I don't really know that for sure.

Anyway, this only matters in a relatively minor respect. The truth is that slightly more people have apparently voted for one guy than voted for the other. Almost half the country is to be oppressed by the will of some dude acting nominally in the interests of the other half. It may or may not be true that the winning half cheated like heck. In the end, it really does not matter. That's the core of it. It doesn't matter whether one side cheated, the end result is still that one Party gets to weild power and the other does not, and that the winning party shall spend the next few years trying to prevent the other from getting a glimpse of that power.

Representation is a denial of participation, and I have no time for the, "western governments" and others crying shame and cheat on the PM's lot while still practicing the same form of false democracy themselves.

On the matter of civil war, as I say, I do not think that it will come to all out war, but wouldn't like to bet heavily on that.

+ he wants a good relation with Europe and in the long run will try to be a candidate.
For entry into the EU? I thiink that little statement about Iraq is more populist than anything. It's fun to villify that war, and everyone knows it. Besides, the Ukraine has nothing to gain from it, at least not in the short-term.

For entry into the EU? I thiink that little statement about Iraq is more populist than anything. It's fun to villify that war, and everyone knows it. Besides, the Ukraine has nothing to gain from it, at least not in the short-term.

Actually, Yushchenko is pushing heavily for the Ukraine to enter the EU AND NATO. He also disagrees with the Iraq war, but its not a major issue. Just a background one.

Actually, Yushchenko is pushing heavily for the Ukraine to enter the EU
Oh no.....

Oh no.....

Hmmm?

Ukraine would make a PERFECT addition to the EU.(it would nullify Russias semi-expansionist agenda, at least temporarily.)

What political party does he belong to? Are Ukrainians supporting a left-ring revolt or a right-wing revolt. Please explain to me the politics of both candidates (I really am clueless about the 2 candidates in question there :( )
Yushchenko is more neoliberal than the incumbent.

Actually, Yushchenko is pushing heavily for the Ukraine to enter the EU AND NATO. He also disagrees with the Iraq war, but its not a major issue. Just a background one.
Of course. Anyhow, it'd be great for the region if Ukraine got into both institutions. It'd grow the region economically, and pretty much end the threat of Russian encroachment in the area. It might even pressure the Russians to reform, and Putin to curb his abuses of power.

I'd describe him more as right-of-center. He supports economic intergration with the West, and hopes to encourage Western investment and such in his country. In fact, the only thing that the US can't like about him is that he wants to withdraw the Ukrainian brigade from Iraq.


I too think Ukraine would be much better off in the EU and not in the hands of the Russians. However I have heard reports that Putin sent SpetzNatz Soldiers into Ukraine. It looks like Russia wont give up without a fight.

Hmmm?

Ukraine would make a PERFECT addition to the EU.(it would nullify Russias semi-expansionist agenda, at least temporarily.)
Yeah. Just what we need. Another bottomless pit. Can't have enough of those.

Oh no.....
Why? The Ukraine is great in every way. It'd be the death of Russian encroachment in the area, and it'd be great economically. The Ukraine's economic growth has been consistent, and faster than Spain or Ireland's, the two fastest growing Eurozone countries.

I too think Ukraine would be much better off in the EU and not in the hands of the Russians. However I have heard reports that Putin sent SpetzNatz Soldiers into Ukraine. It looks like Russia wont give up without a fight.

Of course they wont.

IF theres a civil war, expect to see "Ukranian" regiments on the front lines that just "happen" to speak with a russian accent and "happen" to have russian uniforms.

I too think Ukraine would be much better off in the EU and not in the hands of the Russians. However I have heard reports that Putin sent SpetzNatz Soldiers into Ukraine. It looks like Russia wont give up without a fight.
No, but neither will the opposition. I expect that, in the event of sucession, only the Crimea, some of the Southeastern coast, and parts of the East will secede, and only there will Spetznaz presence really matter.

Yeah. Just what we need. Another bottomless pit. Can't have enough of those.

Someone here doesnt like non-rich countries...

Someone here doesnt like non-rich countries...
Nor sees its potential. The Ukraine is actually one of the best preforming countries transistioning from a command system to a market one.

Someone here doesnt like non-rich countries...
Oh...memememe...we have plenty of those already.

Nor sees its potential. The Ukraine is actually one of the best preforming countries transistioning from a command system to a market one.
Fine. Let the US have the Ukraine then. And I'll throw in Turkey as a bonus.

Fine. Let the US have the Ukraine then. And I'll throw in Turkey as a bonus.
Ever heard of the Monroe Doctrine? It states that European powers can't encroach in the Americas. Well, it works the other way, too.

Ever heard of the Monroe Doctrine? It states that European powers can't encroach in the Americas. Well, it works the other way, too.
Well then. Just take Turkey. It's not European it doesn't fall into your Mc Donalds doctrine.

Well then. Just take Turkey. It's not European it doesn't fall into your Mc Donalds doctrine.
No, we like to see you dirty pinko-commies suffer :). Now let's get back to the topic.

Fine. Let the US have the Ukraine then. And I'll throw in Turkey as a bonus.
:D

Anyway, if there's to be a civil war, the navy have sided with Yuschenko, and the Army have yet to declare a side.

Also, tonight the sides agreed to begin emergency talks, despite large protests still in the four cities supporting Yuschenko, including Kiev.

:D

Anyway, if there's to be a civil war, the navy have sided with Yuschenko, and the Army have yet to declare a side.

Have they really declared sides already? If so, it sounds like the situation is getting bad.

The navy have, the army haven't. The navy declared their support before the election though. And it is serious.
The Russians are trying to subvert democracy in a sovereign nation. How much more serious do you want? Putin's getting to a proper level of megolomania now.

The navy have, the army haven't. The navy declared their support before the election though. And it is serious.
The Russians are trying to subvert democracy in a sovereign nation. How much more serious do you want? Putin's getting to a proper level of megolomania now.

I agree.

I also believe he's trying to make Russia a dictatorship, not a communist dictatorship, but a dictatorship. Russian TV actually spouts anti-U.S. and Anti-west propaganda like we have Beer commercials!

He's setting the ground for another cold war i say!

The navy have, the army haven't. The navy declared their support before the election though. And it is serious.
The Russians are trying to subvert democracy in a sovereign nation. How much more serious do you want? Putin's getting to a proper level of megolomania now.
I just mean that it is serious because there are already some signs of imminent civil war. However, if Russia gets involved, I don't know how effective their navy will be. The Russians maintain a naval base at Sevastopol, and while their navy certainly isn't great, it's still the best in the region. Still, I bet that critical land will be gained by the navy, as they can sail up the Dnieper and Dniester, which are both navigable.

I just mean that it is serious because there are already some signs of imminent civil war. However, if Russia gets involved, I don't know how effective their navy will be. The Russians maintain a naval base at Sevastopol, and while their navy certainly isn't great, it's still the best in the region. Still, I bet that critical land will be gained by the navy, as they can sail up the Dnieper and Dniester, which are both navigable.
Like Russia even would need it's navy to invade the Ukraine.

I agree.

I also believe he's trying to make Russia a dictatorship, not a communist dictatorship, but a dictatorship. Russian TV actually spouts anti-U.S. and Anti-west propaganda like we have Beer commercials!

He's setting the ground for another cold war i say!
But it won't be a serious Cold War. Everyone in Eastern Europe seems to have had enough with Russia, save for Belarus, and now a few elements of the Ukraine. The Russians are no longer self-sufficient, and only have an economy thanks to Western investment and oil revenue. They also have a rapidly weakening military, and their only claim to international power is their extremely large nuclear arsenal. They are simply a defeated power grasping for life. This isn't a Cold War, but, as the Russians see it, a fight for the survival of their power. However, I honestly don't think that this Russian dictatorship will last more than a decade, especially with their economy booming.

Like Russia even would need it's navy to invade the Ukraine.
It could be used to bombard coastal and river cities.

Like Russia even would need it's navy to invade the Ukraine.

I agree with you there.

This is what i bet the ruskies will do if they enter:

Step one: Use the Ruskie Air Force(not actual name, BTW) to bomb Yushchenko Cities.

Step Two: Send Russian soldiers to help the Yanukovych soldiers.

Step Three: With the help of Yanukovych soldiers, invade the rest of Ukraine. Enemy crushed within days.

Step 4: Make Ukraine part of Russia.

I agree with you there.

This is what i bet the ruskies will do if they enter:

Step one: Use the Ruskie Air Force(not actual name, BTW) to bomb Yushchenko Cities.

Step Two: Send Russian soldiers to help the Yanukovych soldiers.

Step Three: With the help of Yanukovych soldiers, invade the rest of Ukraine. Enemy crushed within days.

Step 4: Make Ukraine part of Russia.

Hmmm....perhaps Tom Clancy wasnt being unrealistic afterall

I agree with you there.

This is what i bet the ruskies will do if they enter:

Step one: Use the Ruskie Air Force(not actual name, BTW) to bomb Yushchenko Cities.

Step Two: Send Russian soldiers to help the Yanukovych soldiers.

Step Three: With the help of Yanukovych soldiers, invade the rest of Ukraine. Enemy crushed within days.

Step 4: Make Ukraine part of Russia.
I don't expect them to do that, though. It'd cause far too much tension with the West, and maybe even China, which may worry that their neighbor to the north is too aggressive.

I don't expect them to do that, though. It'd cause far too much tension with the West, and maybe even China, which may worry that their neighbor to the north is too aggressive.

Maybe i went a bit overboard with #4...

but i stand by the other 3.

Maybe i went a bit overboard with #4...

but i stand by the other 3.
Well in that case, Russia must proceed carefully. It might end up being a mix between their experience in Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia.

I agree with you there.

This is what i bet the ruskies will do if they enter:

Step one: Use the Ruskie Air Force(not actual name, BTW) to bomb Yushchenko Cities.

Step Two: Send Russian soldiers to help the Yanukovych soldiers.

Step Three: With the help of Yanukovych soldiers, invade the rest of Ukraine. Enemy crushed within days.

Step 4: Make Ukraine part of Russia.
Step 4.5: Divide the Ukraine with Poland and do the same with Belarussia.

Step 4.5: Divide the Ukraine with Poland and do the same with Belarussia.

Go Poland!(im more than 50% polish, y'know.

Im also part Ruskie.

And Frenchie.

And Irish.

And, get this, Syrian.)

Go Poland!(im more than 50% polish, y'know.

Im also part Ruskie.

And Frenchie.

And Irish.

And, get this, Syrian.)

MAN thats diverse :eek:

Go Poland!(im more than 50% polish, y'know.
I do now.

Well if the Russians get involved, they'll slaughter Ukraine with their naval forces there.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mf-black.htm
I don't think the Ukrainian navy is nearly as strong enough to to defeat the Ruskies.

Well if the Russians get involved, they'll slaughter Ukraine with their naval forces there.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mf-black.htm
I don't think the Ukrainian navy is nearly as strong enough to to defeat the Ruskies.
Yeah. Let's use the navy to invade the shores of the Ukraine. Why bother with the extremely long border they share.

Yeah. Let's use the navy to invade the shores of the Ukraine. Why bother with the extremely long border they share.
Hey, it'd make it far quicker.

Hey, it'd make it far quicker.
Yes. First send the fleet to St. Petersburg. Load in the troops. Go back through the Baltic, North, Mediterranian and Black seas. Unload the troops to secure a beach head. Fly in more troops and material. And, oh yeah. Get permission from the variouse states along the line to cross their territorial waters.

Yes. First send the fleet to St. Petersburg. Load in the troops. Go back through the Baltic, North, Mediterranian and Black seas. Unload the troops to secure a beach head. Fly in more troops and material. And, oh yeah. Get permission from the variouse states along the line to cross their territorial waters.

Good idea!

I agree with you, it would make more sense to invade by ground.

HOWEVER, the Ruskies COULD use the navy to help destroy the Yushchenko supporters quicker.

(fun fact=Both candidates' first names are Viktor.)

Yes. First send the fleet to St. Petersburg. Load in the troops. Go back through the Baltic, North, Mediterranian and Black seas. Unload the troops to secure a beach head. Fly in more troops and material. And, oh yeah. Get permission from the variouse states along the line to cross their territorial waters.
I was thinking that the navy would assist the invading army by bombarding positions, destroying the Ukranian navy before they can give any trouble, and blockade any ports there.

bump

Step 4.5: Divide the Ukraine with Poland and do the same with Belarussia.

And if that ever happened;

6: Poland gives Germany Silesia and Pomerania. And everyones Even Steven again, ya? :D

Well, if thats the case can finland have karelia back too?

lol, i cant see that happening.

And if that ever happened;

6: Poland gives Germany Silesia and Pomerania. And everyones Even Steven again, ya? :D
And the Polish parts of Eastern Prussia, the Russian part of Eastern Prussia, Lithuanians return the Memelland, Western Prussia and Danzig and Posen.
Then we're even Steven.

Well, if thats the case can finland have karelia back too?
Why not. I'm feeling generouse.

bump

With the whole current Ukraine situation, it seems to me almost laughable that the American election moniters said that the system was rigged in favour of the Pro Russian candidate and that the Pro Western one won, and the Russian election moniters say that it wasnt rigged and the Pro Russian won.

With the whole current Ukraine situation, it seems to me almost laughable that the American election moniters said that the system was rigged in favour of the Pro Russian candidate and that the Pro Western one won, and the Russian election moniters say that it wasnt rigged and the Pro Russian won.

When it comes down to it, Its East vs. West.

On the west, we have the U.S., the E.U., and Yushchenko.

On the east, we have Russia and Yanukovych.

Who will win? I sure hope its Yushchenko, because if Russia doesnt get a Pro-Russia Ukraine, Mr. Putins semi-dictatorship will loose a key ally it, quite frankly, never had.

With the whole current Ukraine situation, it seems to me almost laughable that the American election moniters said that the system was rigged in favour of the Pro Russian candidate and that the Pro Western one won, and the Russian election moniters say that it wasnt rigged and the Pro Russian won.
Still, there is a lot of evidence that the election was rigged.

Still, there is a lot of evidence that the election was rigged.

Let's hope that the Ukrainians can rapidly be introduced to Western ideals like hanging chads, electoral colleges, and determination of elections by supreme courts.

Let's hope that the Ukrainians can rapidly be introduced to Western ideals like hanging chads, electoral colleges, and determination of elections by supreme courts.
You are the most cynical, self-hating pessimist I have ever seen on these fora.

You are the most cynical, self-hating pessimist I have ever seen on these fora.

I second that motion!

The international media has tried to make it sound like it will irupt at any moment. However both protestors and government officals have been clear in their peaceful hopes.

It is a peaceful, well organised protest, the leaders have control of the crowd and they have employed security to ensure nothing gets out of hand.

This is the greatest excercise of democracy I have ever seen and all the media can do is push for a war. Shame!

The international media has tried to make it sound like it will irupt at any moment. However both protestors and government officals have been clear in their peaceful hopes.

It is a peaceful, well organised protest, the leaders have control of the crowd and they have employed security to ensure nothing gets out of hand.

This is the greatest excercise of democracy I have ever seen and all the media can do is push for a war. Shame!
It's not the media that speaks of war. It is us. I believe it because I know that Ukraine is in a volatile political position.

It's not the media that speaks of war. It is us. I believe it because I know that Ukraine is in a volatile political position.
But what do you base this belief on? No doubt media scare tactics. I was watching a news program on the ABC late last night (Australian ABC), I can't remember the name now. But it is one I normally like because it ussually panders towards my liberal leanings.

However, every question the reporter asked (for half an hour mind you) was a reworded "do you think fighting will erupt?". Both sides cept saying no, but he wouldn't except the facts, prefering instead to close the segment by saying "A nation on the brink of war".

But what do you base this belief on? No doubt media scare tactics. I was watching a news program on the ABC late last night (Australian ABC), I can't remember the name now. But it is one I normally like because it ussually panders towards my liberal leanings.

However, every question the reporter asked (for half an hour mind you) was a reworded "do you think fighting will erupt?". Both sides cept saying no, but he wouldn't except the facts, prefering instead to close the segment by saying "A nation on the brink of war".
Isn't it natural that they ask this? I mean, this looks like anything but an entirely peaceful election in a mature country. Even so, the media will always have biases. The important thing is to learn to sift for the information, or, as you have done, find a station that panders to your views.

Isn't it natural that they ask this? I mean, this looks like anything but an entirely peaceful election in a mature country. Even so, the media will always have biases. The important thing is to learn to sift for the information, or, as you have done, find a station that panders to your views.
I may not have high standard for the media, but one of them is to ask more than one question over a thrity minute period and not to conclude with an obious lie.

I may not have high standard for the media, but one of them is to ask more than one question over a thrity minute period and not to conclude with an obious lie.
Fair enough. I'm sure there's a source out there that suits your needs.

As a Romanow, myself, I do take a bit of interest in this. I do not, however, see a civil war coming to be over this. However, it seems as though Russia might sort of...prod the Ukranians into a civil war, in order to pull off a police action and either a) install a puppet government or b) actually take the land over themselves. Perhaps this is just my Cold War Sense tingling?

As a Romanow, myself, I do take a bit of interest in this. I do not, however, see a civil war coming to be over this. However, it seems as though Russia might sort of...prod the Ukranians into a civil war, in order to pull off a police action and either a) install a puppet government or b) actually take the land over themselves. Perhaps this is just my Cold War Sense tingling?
I personally don't think Russia would act. It'd be far too disadvantagious for them. It'd wreck their image in the world, and it may force sanctions on them, and as they are an export-driven economy, that'd hurt really badly.

bump

You are the most cynical, self-hating pessimist I have ever seen on these fora.

I'll plead guilty to cynical, but contest the other charges.

I'll plead guilty to cynical, but contest the other charges.
Well, you have faith in nothing.

Why is everyone here so anti-Russian?

It's hard for me to take sides, but I'm fairly new to the conflict and still researching it.

All I can conclude is that democracy sucks. :)

Why is everyone here so anti-Russian?

It's hard for me to take sides, but I'm fairly new to the conflict and still researching it.

All I can conclude is that democracy sucks. :)
We're not anti-Russian, but just anti-Putin. In the past year or so, he seems to have departed from his pro-Western, free market ideaology, and gone more towards a dictatorship. He probably will step down, but elected dictatorships can be volatile. Who knows who'll be elected after him. But I digress.

We're not anti-Russian, but just anti-Putin. In the past year or so, he seems to have departed from his pro-Western, free market ideaology, and gone more towards a dictatorship. He probably will step down, but elected dictatorships can be volatile. Who knows who'll be elected after him. But I digress.

Step down? Fat chance.

I can see it now...

Join Komrade Putin in his war against the Imperialist Dogs!
Your motherland commands it!
http://i.timeinc.net/time/personoftheyear/2002/images/putin.jpg

He DOES look like he'd be a more...handsome dictator...(Most others a just UGLY!)

This could be more than a civil war, it could lead to world war. Right now protests and demonstrations in Kiev and the cities are calm and optimistic. But if you look at all those riot-police (who joined Joeshenko, if I remember) and then the rumor of SpetzNazis in Kiev, I get the impression Janukovich and Putin are trying to tempt Joeshenko's supporters to pick a fight so then they can scream and point like "Look what they did! They attacked a totally innocent Russian elite soldier, without just cause! The humanity, only war can solve this injustice!". I'm glad the Ukrainians are much more mature than the average public protesters, but I'll be glad when everybodies off the street and Joeshenko president. Thinking about Ukraine gives me a bad feeling in the stomach.

Actually, I'll be even more relieved if Putin got assassinated pretty soon. Somebody like Boris Yeltsin is a much better choice for the Kremlin. Boris was cool, Boris was not ambitious, Boris drank a lot! How can you not like a dumb, drunken joker with his hands on 'The Button'? But seriously, I'm going to use a popular phrase used in the US elections: anything but Putin! I appreciate he signed the Kyoto protocol, Russia really does need to modernise. But look at what he did wrong: Moscow theatre hostage crisis, Beslan, hatred between Chechens and Russians, the new nuclear weapon announcement and now Ukraine.

Putin was all 'let Ukraine handle it' at the EU/Russia meeting in The Hague. But would you agree with him when there's a rumor floating around that Russia has send special forces to Kiev? Besides, anyone remembers what went wrong in Yugoslavia when France said 'let Europe handle it'? At least France and Netherland meant well, Putin doesn't want anyone but himself to be well off. He's the kind of creep that makes Stalin look like a tanked-up retard. I always said he would make wonderful friends with Berlusconi.

As a Romanow, myself, I do take a bit of interest in this. I do not, however, see a civil war coming to be over this. However, it seems as though Russia might sort of...prod the Ukranians into a civil war, in order to pull off a police action and either a) install a puppet government or b) actually take the land over themselves. Perhaps this is just my Cold War Sense tingling?

What's a Romanow?