NationStates Jolt Archive

With the Ukrainian Elections fairly obviously subverted by the Russian Security Services and Eastern European Mafia elements, will Bush (and other leaders) risk his relationship with Putin by supporting the Opposition candidate?

Will the ideals of "freedom" be abandoned in the name of International politics? Will the, potentially very powerful, Ukraine be allowed to move further under the Russian yoke? Or is it time to stand up and help them in thier centuries of stuggle for a free Ukraine?

the question and options in the poll don't deal with the multiple questions you've posed in the opening post.

And now I'm confused and I don't know my name or where I live...

I thought the question would be will Shrub defend Ukrainian Democracy, when the actual poll question is should he step in.

The poll is for what people think should happen, the other questions can be discussed if people want to.

With the Ukrainian Elections fairly obviously subverted by the Russian Security Services and Eastern European Mafia elements, will Bush (and other leaders) risk his relationship with Putin by supporting the Opposition candidate?

Will the ideals of "freedom" be abandoned in the name of International politics? Will the, potentially very powerful, Ukraine be allowed to move further under the Russian yoke? Or is it time to stand up and help them in thier centuries of stuggle for a free Ukraine?

No, it's none of the EU's or the US's business. They should support democratic movements, but any sort of sanctions or interventions would:

1. Really piss off Russia, and you don't want to piss them off.

2. Drive the Ukraine into Russia's arms when normal people percieve it as foreign meddling.

Best is to urge for change, maybe withdraw some aid, but avoid meddling.

I didn't think Bush and Putin had a great diplomatic relationship. There is still a lack of trust between the two nations. And I doubt the UN will step in. They do not seem to step up and defend anything anymore.

Does the Ukraine have oil reserves?

The US excuse for going to war was to "bring Democracy," so following their own policy they should back the people of the Ukraine.

However, since relations with Russia are usually viewed by the government as "more important" than with the Ukraine, they'll side with Russia 100% of the time. Plus, the US will never step in and help (while a Republican is President) anyone just for humanitarian reasons.

Now if they had Oil or Natural Gas Reserves, the US would be there in a heartbeat.

the question and options in the poll don't deal with the multiple questions you've posed in the opening post.

And now I'm confused and I don't know my name or where I live...

laughter. yes of coures that is the awnser.

The situation is still peaceful. We should hold back until they give an official result. Anyway I don't believe Putin will accept Yushchenko as a leader. Ukraine is too important for Russia to be allowed to do what they would like to under Yushchenko's leadership.
And we should be concerned that Putin now wants to gain power not only in Russia but in every CIS country.

You kiddin' me? George Bush sent Mr Yanukovych an autographed copy of Karl Rove's "How to Steal an Election in Eight Easy Steps" a couple of months ago.

Don't fool yourself into thinking Bush is going to do a damn thing. Bush is anti-democracy and you all know it.

Does the Ukraine have oil reserves?LOL, I clicked on this thread with the intention of posting the exact same thing, Guess I have to be quicker on the draw!

I just realised Ukraine is the second largest country in Europe. Damn they're huge! Maybe not oil but in a such vast country there has to be something valuable...

LOL, I clicked on this thread with the intention of posting the exact same thing, Guess I have to be quicker on the draw!

Gotcha! LOL.

I bet if they have got oil (and they most certainly do) then they must also have WMDs and be just ripe for some enforced "regime change".

The only downside, of course, is that these guys really DO have WMDs.

Could be nasty.

With the Ukrainian Elections fairly obviously subverted by the Russian Security Services and Eastern European Mafia elements, will Bush (and other leaders) risk his relationship with Putin by supporting the Opposition candidate?

Will the ideals of "freedom" be abandoned in the name of International politics? Will the, potentially very powerful, Ukraine be allowed to move further under the Russian yoke? Or is it time to stand up and help them in thier centuries of stuggle for a free Ukraine?

In principle, we agree, but we are kind-of busy right now. Your loss is "fairly obviously subverted", but you must send evidence (not necessarily total proof) to FOX NEWS (NOT ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN). This is VERY IMPORTANT. If FOX does not get it first, and WAY AHEAD OF THE KERRY SOCIALISTS, it will be turned against you.

Does Ukraine have terrorist?

I don't think Mr. Bush really gives a damn about Ukraine.

The USA and UK should. The sad thing is, though, if we don't we'll be called hypocrites and people who neglect democracy, if we do help then people will just add it to lists of American "imperialism". :rolleyes:

In principle, we agree, but we are kind-of busy right now. Your loss is "fairly obviously subverted", but you must send evidence (not necessarily total proof) to FOX NEWS (NOT ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN). This is VERY IMPORTANT. If FOX does not get it first, and WAY AHEAD OF THE KERRY SOCIALISTS, it will be turned against you.

Just do some research into the election and you will see irregularities from the start. Intimidation and fraud, there are areas with a 96% turn out to vote; these areas are usually in the rural south, 96% turnouts never happen. The rest of what you said I honestly do not understand :confused:

Ukraine probably does have oil and gas reserves, but they are irrelevant, the potential power will come from the Crimea and the control of Black Sea trade through there up into Russia. Ukraine has the capacity to become a major European and World player if they can break away and develop, unfortunatly the Russian Government (and many of thier people) wish to keep hold of thier Empire, they know it is starting to slip away yet they still feel they have rights to tell thier now independent historical conquests, what to do.

Putin has also already congratulated the "new President", even though the "rightful" President is too scared to show his face. Hopefully the people can force a bloodless revolution vis a vis Serbia and Georgia, however I doubt the Russians would let that lie.

Personally I do not know what to do; Putin has no right to meddle, but then neither does Europe (or the US), however the threat of bloodshed of a monunmental proportion compels me to think we should not let them down. :confused: :(

Just do some research into the election and you will see irregularities from the start. Intimidation and fraud, there are areas with a 96% turn out to vote; these areas are usually in the rural south, 96% turnouts never happen. The rest of what you said I honestly do not understand :confused:

Ukraine probably does have oil and gas reserves, but they are irrelevant, the potential power will come from the Crimea and the control of Black Sea trade through there up into Russia. Ukraine has the capacity to become a major European and World player if they can break away and develop, unfortunatly the Russian Government (and many of thier people) wish to keep hold of thier Empire, they know it is starting to slip away yet they still feel they have rights to tell thier now independent historical conquests, what to do.

Putin has also already congratulated the "new President", even though the "rightful" President is too scared to show his face. Hopefully the people can force a bloodless revolution vis a vis Serbia and Georgia, however I doubt the Russians would let that lie.

Personally I do not know what to do; Putin has no right to meddle, but then neither does Europe (or the US), however the threat of bloodshed of a monunmental proportion compels me to think we should not let them down. :confused: :(

Me Thinks That We Agree.

Wow, already people are wanting to blame the United States for this. Pretty easy huh. It seems to be the magic thing here in Europe nowadays, to just blame it on the States. Economic Recession? Damn those Americans! Islamic Terrorism? We are Americanizing! More criminality? It's because of the re-election of Bush.

Stop blaming everything on the Americans! It's pretty pathetic, like Kwangistar said. The anti-americans will always find a new reason to hate the United States, if the US/UK doesn't invade then they will be un-caring for democracy. When the US/UK does invade then they will be imperialists.

What should happen is that neither the US or Europe should get involved until the result is announced. Then, if there are any complaints, the UN should be notified and inspect the elections. If tampering is proven, then the US and Europe should and probably will get involved if, as I expect, Russia refuses to allow the UN to get involved.

Wow, already people are wanting to blame the United States for this. Pretty easy huh. It seems to be the magic thing here in Europe nowadays, to just blame it on the States. Economic Recession? Damn those Americans! Islamic Terrorism? We are Americanizing! More criminality? It's because of the re-election of Bush.

Stop blaming everything on the Americans! It's pretty pathetic, like Kwangistar said. The anti-americans will always find a new reason to hate the United States, if the US/UK doesn't invade then they will be un-caring for democracy. When the US/UK does invade then they will be imperialists.

You're overblowing this. What people are saying is that if America is so intent on bringing "democracy" to the rest of the world, then they should be very concerned with how the democracy is shaping up in the Ukraine. We want to see if the administration is really serious when they say that they want to bring about democracy in foreign lands, or if it's just a clever way of saying that they want to send their democracy where THEY feel it should go.

What should happen is that neither the US or Europe should get involved until the result is announced. Then, if there are any complaints, the UN should be notified and inspect the elections. If tampering is proven, then the US and Europe should and probably will get involved if, as I expect, Russia refuses to allow the UN to get involved.

Have some more Koffee.

I'm not overblowing it.

People here in the Netherlands (and AFAIK also in other parts of Europe) hate Bush and blame everything on the Americans, there's so much blind anti-americanism/bush-ism. Even the news is openly anti-american. If America's isolationist it isn't good, if the US brings democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan it isn't good.

I think I can understand it if they don't want to bring democracy to new lands if the only thing they'll get is millions of people saying 'WE HATE YOU IMPERIALISTS' then it's clear that the will of the people is that the USA shouldn't care about the world. But don't start whining then that they aren't helping the world.

first of all, i was not aware that russia had anything to do with the recent crisis, so to speak. I heard that the Ukraine elections were fixed or something but i didnt hear anything about russia. And even if Russia did do something, neither the US, nor the UN will ever stand up to it. We dont need another ww3 because of a trivial issue suh as this.

You're overblowing this. What people are saying is that if America is so intent on bringing "democracy" to the rest of the world, then they should be very concerned with how the democracy is shaping up in the Ukraine. We want to see if the administration is really serious when they say that they want to bring about democracy in foreign lands, or if it's just a clever way of saying that they want to send their democracy where THEY feel it should go.

Actually this was originated by the British under the unreasonable patriot Winston Churchill, and later the appointed president Harry Truman's strong anti-soviet, anti-communist railings which ended up being so fruitless and foolish, as our glorious nation largely adopted socialist tactics regardless of this unjustified prejudice. Few in our glorious nation still see furtherment of democracy as an important goal, although the government is still willing to break isolationism to help our most honorable traditional allies (Israel, Greece, Turkey, Taiwan, South Korea, Pakistan, etc.)

As for Ukraine, asking us to take actions which will upset our great ally Russia would be ill-concieved and irresponsible. The United States can express its concerns diplomatically, it does not need to assert itself over Ukraine, where it has next to no authority. If the Ukrainians themselves make a concerted effort to ask for American intervention, perhaps a clash is unavoidable. But as things are this is unecessary and impolite.

Russia must be given the ability to perform repression of her neighbors, as, although Ukraine may not be a good example, there are several areas in which such control would be beneficial to our great nation, lessening our need to perform this repression ourselves. The military we are so proud of can obliberate and repress any nation, should it be allowed to do so, but we had best avoid commiting atrocities for the mere sake of territorial acquisition, especially when the lands are located so far from our borders. In order to do this our great ally must be allowed to move about and obliberate the evil which has persued us all, which it has done admirably.

first of all, i was not aware that russia had anything to do with the recent crisis, so to speak. I heard that the Ukraine elections were fixed or something but i didnt hear anything about russia. And even if Russia did do something, neither the US, nor the UN will ever stand up to it. We dont need another ww3 because of a trivial issue suh as this.
It has everything to do with Russian and especially the powerhungry leader of them. And you're right UN won't do anything about it, because Russia is involved. They can veto everything.
But ww3? Don't think anyone here expects this issue turning into a proper war.

to hell with Putin. flame his a$$ with a really big flamethrower. he is nothing but a jackbooted thug in a really cheap looking suit. he'd fit right in with Sammy the Bull.

I'm not overblowing it.

People here in the Netherlands (and AFAIK also in other parts of Europe) hate Bush and blame everything on the Americans, there's so much blind anti-americanism/bush-ism. Even the news is openly anti-american. If America's isolationist it isn't good, if the US brings democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan it isn't good.

I think I can understand it if they don't want to bring democracy to new lands if the only thing they'll get is millions of people saying 'WE HATE YOU IMPERIALISTS' then it's clear that the will of the people is that the USA shouldn't care about the world. But don't start whining then that they aren't helping the world.

of course if Qantrix says it is correct. probably time for all those people to take responsibility for their own problems. Europe has economic problems becasue they run socialist economies, give them a dose of free market capitalism. that will fix those criminal unemployment rates.

Qantrix you should come home for a visit. ;)

to hell with Putin. flame his a$$ with a really big flamethrower. he is nothing but a jackbooted thug in a really cheap looking suit. he'd fit right in with Sammy the Bull.
And who would replace him? Different countries need different leaders. Don't get me wrong, Putin has streched it too far, but the options aren't any good either.

Just do some research into the election and you will see irregularities from the start. Intimidation and fraud, there are areas with a 96% turn out to vote; these areas are usually in the rural south, 96% turnouts never happen. The rest of what you said I honestly do not understand :confused:

Ukraine probably does have oil and gas reserves, but they are irrelevant, the potential power will come from the Crimea and the control of Black Sea trade through there up into Russia. Ukraine has the capacity to become a major European and World player if they can break away and develop, unfortunatly the Russian Government (and many of thier people) wish to keep hold of thier Empire, they know it is starting to slip away yet they still feel they have rights to tell thier now independent historical conquests, what to do.

Putin has also already congratulated the "new President", even though the "rightful" President is too scared to show his face. Hopefully the people can force a bloodless revolution vis a vis Serbia and Georgia, however I doubt the Russians would let that lie.

Personally I do not know what to do; Putin has no right to meddle, but then neither does Europe (or the US), however the threat of bloodshed of a monunmental proportion compels me to think we should not let them down. :confused: :(

Do you live there? Or are you just a liberal do-gooder trying to HELP?

The US excuse for going to war was to "bring Democracy," so following their own policy they should back the people of the Ukraine.

However, since relations with Russia are usually viewed by the government as "more important" than with the Ukraine, they'll side with Russia 100% of the time. Plus, the US will never step in and help (while a Republican is President) anyone just for humanitarian reasons.

Now if they had Oil or Natural Gas Reserves, the US would be there in a heartbeat.

The first reason for the U.S. to go to war was WMD. Democracy was the fall back position when WMD did not pan out. Right now there are too many pans in the fire. Bush would have to be even more stupid than I give him credit for to try to face down Russia who has FOR REAL WMD.

Do you live there? Or are you just a liberal do-gooder trying to HELP?

In the US, we say, "With friends like these,

Who Needs Enemies?"

I don't believe Russia had anything to do with fixing the election, but the election was fixed. The organisations who could get involved are the EU (as Ukraine is a potential member) Russia (as many Russians still live in the Ukraine). The authority of the UN to act in this case is questionable, as this is not an international dispute. Were the EU or Russia to get involved, then the UN could be called in. The UN cannot act on allegations of electoral fraud as this is out with its mandate. The UN can only intervene at the request of the Ukrainian government. Since that will be whoever wins, it is very unlikely. The EU and Russia should work together with both candidates to come to an amicable solution, preferably one that doesn't involve dividing the country in two or having a civil war.

America should keep out, as it will be seen as imperialism, and would most likely rally support around Mr Yanukovych (which may be no bad thing, as it would at least unite the country). The American government has given huge funding to Mr Yushchenko, but too high a profile may result in him being portrayed as a puppet. Behind the scenes is the best place for American influence.

Ideally they would have another election, where both sides play fair, the concern however is that this would be seen as meddling by the Ukrainians (mainly because it is, but we have their best interests at heart!).

The first reason for the U.S. to go to war was WMD. Democracy was the fall back position when WMD did not pan out. Right now there are too many pans in the fire. Bush would have to be even more stupid than I give him credit for to try to face down Russia who has FOR REAL WMD.

1. Read the UN TransScripts: Russia, France, Germany (and all of the other bribe-takers) agreed that Iraq had WMD (and used them against the Kurds, and Iran).

2. The US has photos showing the WMD moved to Syria, and they recently tried to use/sell some.

3. Colin Powell reminded Syria yesterday. Watch what happens.

The US excuse for going to war was to "bring Democracy," so following their own policy they should back the people of the Ukraine.

However, since relations with Russia are usually viewed by the government as "more important" than with the Ukraine, they'll side with Russia 100% of the time. Plus, the US will never step in and help (while a Republican is President) anyone just for humanitarian reasons.

Now if they had Oil or Natural Gas Reserves, the US would be there in a heartbeat.

The last point is so true...

The EU and Russia should work together with both candidates to come to an amicable solution, preferably one that doesn't involve dividing the country in two or having a civil war.

Ideally they would have another election, where both sides play fair, the concern however is that this would be seen as meddling by the Ukrainians (mainly because it is, but we have their best interests at heart!).
Yanukovych is Putin's puppet, Yushchenko EU's. What ever happens both sides can't be happy about the results. Both are popular in Ukraine. Yanukovych because there is a large Russian minority who supports him and because many people are afraid of Putin's actions if Yushchenko wins.

Another election is one of the solutions Kutchma has given, so meddling is not needed. (hopefully)

Maybe the Ukrainians should be allowed to sort it out themselves? It's their country, their politicians, their democratic process. Russia and the US are both acting like children over this, squabbling over stuff that is none of their damn business.

1. Read the UN TransScripts: Russia, France, Germany (and all of the other bribe-takers) agreed that Iraq had WMD (and used them against the Kurds, and Iran).

2. The US has photos showing the WMD moved to Syria, and they recently tried to use/sell some.

3. Colin Powell reminded Syria yesterday. Watch what happens.


1. It dosn't matter who agreed with what. When no WMD turned up the Bush team turned to the "We went there to establish democracy and to get rid of an evil dictator" angle, and backed away from the WMD. That was my point.

2. Source? Are you refering to the Sarin gas vials which turned out to be antidote to Sarin gas.

3 Colin Powell reminded Syria of what exactly?

of course if Qantrix says it is correct. probably time for all those people to take responsibility for their own problems. Europe has economic problems becasue they run socialist economies, give them a dose of free market capitalism. that will fix those criminal unemployment rates.

Qantrix you should come home for a visit. ;)

:D I'm still giving the Meritocracy an occasional watch, but I'm currently tied up in a war with the evil communists in Europe :p :p :p but I remember my roots :D

I totally agree Eli, Europe should get more economic freedoms. Luckily in some parts of Europe this is happening, the nations in the former Soviet Union are on the good path and are fairly capitalist. Too bad the European Union isn't doing any good.

I want a war!

The answer is that the US should intervene, but won't. Bush is to friendly with all kinds of semi-dictators (Putin, Berlusconi, Saud family). So why could he not get along with Yanukovich? It's not like he is less vile or fascist than the other four.

And to be honest, they've been fighting too much as of late. It's time someone else takes the torch of 'democracy for your soul!' and runs with it. Or better yet, douse it and light a torch of 'democracy, no strings attached!'.

I suppose Europe is going to play a major role here. Even Berlusconi's party (!) thinks the election was a fake (isn't that a case of the pot calling the kettle black?). And you even see Balkenende (the Harry Potter without enchanting character) protesting it.

And I'd rather see Ukraine as a friend of Europe than a satelite of their big brother, or bear, Russia. The EU has managed to unite several Iron Curtain countries with them already, Ukraine deserves no less than the others.

this is my veiw, and people lets try to stay on topic this is not about wmd that iraq did not have.

the E.U. should not do anything more then talk to the parties involved, although this is a problem, becuase living in a demicratic nation people must have the right to vote, there role should only be that of a "conserned parent to a 25 year old". what i mean by that is, you shouldn't do that, there is this way ________ to not create the posiblilty of civil war.

the U.S. on the other hand should take a VERY active role in this, on the sole basis that they have made themself the poster...persons (very p.c.) of fair democracy. if they dont do something to help the people there they will lose even more in the international sence(yes you can look worse)

Well, if you want US tanks to roll into Kiev, don't count on it. But I do expect that sanctions will be in place if Yushchenko doesn't become president. Foreign aid will probably be limited, too, as Ukraine is currently a big recipient from both the US and EU. The primary reason for intervention is simple: if the other guy with the unpronouncable name wins, it maintains the status quo, and we win or loose very little. If Yushchenko wins, we have all to gain, and nothing to loose.

:D I'm still giving the Meritocracy an occasional watch, but I'm currently tied up in a war with the evil communists in Europe :p :p :p but I remember my roots :D

I totally agree Eli, Europe should get more economic freedoms. Luckily in some parts of Europe this is happening, the nations in the former Soviet Union are on the good path and are fairly capitalist. Too bad the European Union isn't doing any good.


Being tied up in a war against the evil ones is a good occupation for you. And it is true the former nations of the Warsaw Pact are making much progress with a few glaring exceptions, Belarus and Russia come to mind. I may come for a visit to Europe to see you guys. ;)

Perhaps the Ukraine should be divided?

Perhaps the Ukraine should be divided?
They tried once with the Crimea, but that failed. I do believe, however, that Ukraine may become the next Yugoslavia, especially if this crisis turns violent. It may divide, but it won't do it voluntarily.

Bush is already responsible for one direct subversion of american democracy and one possible subversion.

Also, the republican media stranglehold can be considered a subversion of democracy.

Bush sides with russian dictator Vladimir Putin, who in the summer of 2001 he met with and "looked into his soul" to see that he was a "good man."

Bush better defend Ukraine's Democracy . . .

As a half-Ukrainian, I say that Europe and the West should get their hands off Ukraine. Both of the candidates are bad for Ukraine because they will not represent the people anyway. They both have ties to the mafia and the old communist regime.
Now the pro-western candidate might cause Ukraine to split up or erupt in violence. His politics would really disagree with the Eastern Ukraine, Kiev, and the Crimea, which are much more Russian in population and do not support the western-movement. And maybe it so easy in your mind to split up countries, but Ukraine has not yet recovered from the break-up with the Soviet Union. Another revolution would create even more mafia and corruption.
I would not want either of them to be president, but western envolvement will only distabilze the little stability Ukraine has. Didn't the USA learn something from Iraq?

Edit: In conclusion, Ukraine is quite messed up right now, but intervention will only continue that, the Ukrainian people should eventually take the power in their hands on their own.

LOL, someone has mentioned partition already. :p

People are taking this waaay too seriously.

No, what needs to happen is America and Russia both STFU and letting Ukraine sort out its own affairs. This really is not that significant a crisis, unless foreign actors conspire to turn it into one.

As a half-Ukrainian, I say that Europe and the West should get their hands off Ukraine. Both of the candidates are bad for Ukraine because they will not represent the people anyway. They both have ties to the mafia and the old communist regime.
Now the pro-western candidate might cause Ukraine to split up or erupt in violence. His politics would really disagree with the Eastern Ukraine, Kiev, and the Crimea, which are much more Russian in population and do not support the western-movement. And maybe it so easy in your mind to split up countries, but Ukraine has not yet recovered from the break-up with the Soviet Union. Another revolution would create even more mafia and corruption.
I would not want either of them to be president, but western envolvement will only distabilze the little stability Ukraine has. Didn't the USA learn something from Iraq?

Edit: In conclusion, Ukraine is quite messed up right now, but intervention will only continue that, the Ukrainian people should eventually take the power in their hands on their own.

Good, an opinion from somebody actually there; I was going to ask if there were any people from that area on these boards.

So far, this has been an interesting topic to read... I've never really heard much about the Ukraine apart from it being a satellite for Russia. You all are much more informative than the silly biatch on TV asking poor people what they think.

'EE AM AHNGRY!' - >.< can't they ask someone intelligent for their views on the issue, or would that be too much for British people to comprehend?

I believe Powell, the NATO Secretary General and many others have stated that they CANNOT accept the outcome of the Ukranian elections before the complaints are investigated. I'd also like to add that the opposition leader was pronounced President by the Ukranian Parliament, but that it's not office because there weren't enough Members present.

That should be 'official', sorry...

No, it's none of the EU's or the US's business. They should support democratic movements, but any sort of sanctions or interventions would:

1. Really piss off Russia, and you don't want to piss them off.

2. Drive the Ukraine into Russia's arms when normal people percieve it as foreign meddling.

Best is to urge for change, maybe withdraw some aid, but avoid meddling.
It's not "meddling". Every international observer, from Europe and America, and a majority of Ukrainians are saying that total fraud happened. Monitors even saw election officials filling in and stuffing ballot boxes with absentee ballots.

The Ukraine was under Russian domination for long enough. They deserve freedom and self-determination.

Its not the US's responsibility to get involved, if anyone should its should be the EU since it was EU observers who declared it fradulent. This is a delicate situation which could turn into civil war and split the country in two. Not a place for American 'diplomacy'

Yet another ROGUE STATE happens to appear on the EU's Eastern border...

Therefore a big protest rally will be held in front of the European Parliament in Brussels on November 25th, 2 pm.

Protesters will claim for an adequate reaction of the European Union concerning the actual political events in Ukraine:

- pressure on the ukrainian government to review the results of the
elections

- sanctions against the officials straightly involved in manipulations
and fraud during the elections

- denials of visa applications of the ukrainian officials etc.

The rally will start in front of European Parliament at 2 pm, then
move to the office of European Commission where the participants will hold demonstration and hand their claims to the representatives of European Commission.

Please find more information (in German and Ukrainian) on www.sus-n.org.

More information in English is available on request via eMail to
info@sus-n.org

Further info:
http://eng.maidanua.org/

Now the pro-western candidate might cause Ukraine to split up or erupt in violence. His politics would really disagree with the Eastern Ukraine, Kiev, and the Crimea, which are much more Russian in population and do not support the western-movement.
Actually, Kiev has already said that the only man they will recognise as president is Yushchenko.

What makes you think he will cause violence in Ukraine if he is the fairly elected president? The alternative is to gradually become a Soviet Socialist Republic again.

Good, an opinion from somebody actually there; I was going to ask if there were any people from that area on these boards.
He didn't say he was there. (Unless by "there" you mean "related to people from there").

He didn't say he was there. (Unless by "there" you mean "related to people from there").

Granted, a valid point, however he/she may have a better idea of the internal politics of Ukraine than many others.

CNN: Mystery surrounds Yushchenko ailment


http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/25/yushchenko.ailment.ap/index.html