NationStates Jolt Archive

Seriously, he just did while being interviewed by Neil Cavuto.

According to Ray, it was "empty" with just a few "tribes wandering around" but then "we" filled it with life.

That dudes crazy.

Ooooh, wait, he's talking about the "red" chinese now...

This is priceless.

Now they are slamming the french.

Seriously, he just did while being interviewed by Neil Cavuto.

According to Ray, it was "empty" with just a few "tribes wandering around" but then "we" filled it with life.

That dudes crazy.

Ooooh, wait, he's talking about the "red" chinese now...

This is priceless.
Well, thats true at least for the North American continent.

Well, thats true at least for the North American continent.

????? So my ancestors don't count as life? For your information, not all tribes were nomadic...the Salish and Haida on the west coast had permanent settlements, as did the Iroquois to the east. Perhaps it's time to learn some history?

Ahhh man!

I might have to watch tonight and see if they replay it! :)

Who cares? We did what we had to do and now look, we're the most powerful nation on Earth.

????? So my ancestors don't count as life? For your information, not all tribes were nomadic...the Salish and Haida on the west coast had permanent settlements, as did the Iroquois to the east. Perhaps it's time to learn some history?

No they don't!

Don't you remember your ancestors were just a bunch of vermin that were squatting on the Americans lands!

You need to read history as well! :p

Look, Genocide back then wasn't against international law. So....drop it.

Well, thats true at least for the North American continent.

Historians and archaeologists guess that the Native North American population was in the tens of millions when Europeans first arrived on the continent.

Who cares? We did what we had to do and now look, we're the most powerful nation on Earth.

Just like the Spanish, the Portuguese, and the British did before you...oh wait, all their empires crumbled too. The taller they are, the harder they fall.

Historians and archaeologists guess that the Native North American population was in the tens of millions when Europeans first arrived on the continent.

Not according to uncle ray.

It was "empty".

Historians and archaeologists guess that the Native North American population was in the tens of millions when Europeans first arrived on the continent.
Your sure that your not thinking of the central and south american indians?

Just like the Spanish, the Portuguese, and the British did before you...oh wait, all their empires crumbled too. The taller they are, the harder they fall.
Then the US will fall and the earth will shake on it's very foundations. Considering all the fat people there.

Your sure that your not thinking of the central and south american indians?

I hate to admit to plagiarism, but I copied and pasted directly from a website. I don't know very much about Native Americans pre-European conquest, but I was pretty sure that Ray was wrong.

North America was home not only to the tribes that lived in what is now Canada and the US, but also to the Aztec empire and the many weaker nations that they dominated. I don't find it too hard to beleive that the continent had over 10 million people living on it.

Then the US will fall and the earth will shake on it's very foundations. Considering all the fat people there.

The Romans were fatter. And a more-important empire.

In all seriousness, I find that the US will decline from power long before it falls apart. By the time it goes under, it won't be the economic disaster people are predicting.

Seriously, he just did while being interviewed by Neil Cavuto.

According to Ray, it was "empty" with just a few "tribes wandering around" but then "we" filled it with life.

That dudes crazy.

Ooooh, wait, he's talking about the "red" chinese now...

This is priceless.

Yes, Ray Bradbury may be a crazy old man, but he brought up a good point - Competition drives history. It drove the age of exploration, it drove the race to the moon, and now Bradbury wants to use competition to spark a race for space exploration.

So, who cares that he got some facts wrong? The underlying theme was decent enough.

Quite a lot of the world could survive without the US, it might even be better...... the US is the world's largest economic power but it makes few goods now compared to what it used to. It is joining europe and becoming an information based economy. If China disintergrated it would have as large an effect because much of the world's manufacture goes on in China. And the EU is a greater economic power than the US (see the US's illegal steel tariffs and how they were forced to back down!) not by much though....... I don't even do economics! See how educated the British are! P.S Can anyone do polar coordinates? I can't and I need help........ :headbang:

I hate to admit to plagiarism, but I copied and pasted directly from a website. I don't know very much about Native Americans pre-European conquest, but I was pretty sure that Ray was wrong.
Well, I didn't see the interview so the first post is all I have to go on about what he said.
According to Ray, it was "empty" with just a few "tribes wandering around".
And that sounds pretty accurate from what I remember from highschool history lessons. Considering the size of Canada and the US put together.

So, who cares that he got some facts wrong? The underlying theme was decent enough.
Yeah. Who cares if someone who, according to you, is advocating a new field of science makes a fool of himself infront of a camera.

Yes, Ray Bradbury may be a crazy old man, but he brought up a good point - Competition drives history. It drove the age of exploration, it drove the race to the moon, and now Bradbury wants to use competition to spark a race for space exploration.

So, who cares that he got some facts wrong? The underlying theme was decent enough.

I think my point was that he is a crazy old man though.

Not according to uncle ray.

It was "empty".
Sounds like Ray Bradbury is doing some bookburning of his own

I'm disappointed with Ray. I expect better from him. And yes, there were all sorts of people and other mammals running around N.America, including some of my ancestors, the Miqmaq (of what is now New Brunswick).

DT.

Yeah. Who cares if someone who, according to you, is advocating a new field of science makes a fool of himself infront of a camera.

The things he said prior to the interview turning to space exploration were ridiculous, which probably won't do much to the credibility of the field. I'm not saying he didn't make a fool of himself. What I'm saying is that he brought up a good point, even if the rest of his ideas were downright wrong.

Well, I didn't see the interview so the first post is all I have to go on about what he said.

And that sounds pretty accurate from what I remember from highschool history lessons. Considering the size of Canada and the US put together.

It's not. accurate. It's. insulting.

The things he said prior to the interview turning to space exploration were ridiculous, which probably won't do much to the credibility of the field. I'm not saying he didn't make a fool of himself. What I'm saying is that he brought up a good point, even if the rest of his ideas were downright wrong.
But which of his comments will be remembered and discussed? If he can't get his facts straight he should shut up about it.

The things he said prior to the interview turning to space exploration were ridiculous, which probably won't do much to the credibility of the field. I'm not saying he didn't make a fool of himself. What I'm saying is that he brought up a good point, even if the rest of his ideas were downright wrong.

Look, I don't disagree with the idea of space exploration, I think it is a good thing, but that message got lost in the craziness of it all.

It's not. accurate. It's. insulting.
In what way? The North American continent was populated by an Indian population ranging from 3 to 7 million. Canada and the US together are about 20 million square km. That sounds pretty empty to me.

I'm disappointed with Ray. I expect better from him. And yes, there were all sorts of people and other mammals running around N.America, including some of my ancestors, the Miqmaq (of what is now New Brunswick).

DT.

AND of Prince Edward Island, I have Miqmaq ancestry as well!

Look, I don't disagree with the idea of space exploration, I think it is a good thing, but that message got lost in the craziness of it all.
BTW. What did he say about France?

But which of his comments will be remembered and discussed? If he can't get his facts straight he should shut up about it.

Look, I don't disagree with the idea of space exploration, I think it is a good thing, but that message got lost in the craziness of it all.

Mm, good points.

Then I guess Ray should do himself a favor and find someone better to speak for him. My vote's for Shatner.

AND of Prince Edward Island, I have Miqmaq ancestry as well!

My bad. Hello there, Lokisia.

My vote's for Shatner.
At least thats a man who knows a thing or two about space exploration.

Shatner, a God walking among us, to be sure.

At least thats a man who knows a thing or two about space exploration.

And saving money on air travel! :)

BTW. What did he say about France?


Something about everyone in the whole world hating it. I was laughing pretty hard at that point so I'm not sure.

Shatner, a God walking among us, to be sure.
He did wear awfull cloaths while exploring space in his prime. Not something you'd expect from a God.

Something about everyone in the whole world hating it. I was laughing pretty hard at that point so I'm not sure.
He doesn't get out of the house much then I guess.

And saving money on air travel! :)

I doubt he needs to do that anymore; his new album is orgasmic.

He did wear awfull cloaths while exploring space in his prime. Not something you'd expect from a God.

Only a god could pull of a onesy that well.

Do we actually have scientists anymore. Or is it all just writers and actors?

Do we actually have scientists anymore. Or is it all just writers and actors?

They are taking over history, too. I remember watching Brad Pitt discuss Troy on the History channel. It was priceless.

Do we actually have scientists anymore. Or is it all just writers and actors?

We probably have intelligent people in thick-rimmed glasses and white lab coats weeping into a beer glass wondering why the hell they let writers and actors do their speaking for them.

Only a god could pull of a onesy that well.
I still think the high heel boots were taking it to far. Call me an infidel. But I do.

They are taking over history, too. I remember watching Brad Pitt discuss Troy on the History channel. It was priceless.
What did he have to say?

he is such a seriously kick-ass guy. he is seriously an american hero of the variety that we're in need of: one that works words instead of weapons.

what he said sounds pretty jerky. but isn't he like 250 himself? he's probably hardly even awake half the time, everybody.

I still think the high heel boots were taking it to far. Call me an infidel. But I do.

Haha, fair enough, but you have to give it up for any uniform that could make Captain Kirk AND Scotty look ripped.

When the hell are we coming out with those warp drives? Or at least impulse engines. Come on people, let's see some effort.

I didn't know he was still alive.

When the hell are we coming out with those warp drives? Or at least impulse engines. Come on people, let's see some effort.

At this point, I'd be happy with gravity plating and transparent aluminum-!

Haha, fair enough, but you have to give it up for any uniform that could make Captain Kirk AND Scotty look ripped.
*mumbles*....Pyjama's.....*mumbles*

When the hell are we coming out with those warp drives? Or at least impulse engines. Come on people, let's see some effort.
I bet we already have them.

At this point, I'd be happy with gravity plating and transparent aluminum-!
I want transwarp....

I want transwarp....

What about those colourful alien bits of gnosh they had on 'Journey To Babel'? Kinda like super-sized Skittles or something.

*gags* mmm-mmm good!

*mumbles*....Pyjama's.....*mumbles*

Control, control, it's only an internet message board, you don't need to flip out, even if he did disrespect the original Starfleet uniforms. . . :D

Well, I didn't see the interview so the first post is all I have to go on about what he said.

And that sounds pretty accurate from what I remember from highschool history lessons. Considering the size of Canada and the US put together.

Hey, Canada is still pretty empty, considering its size.

They are taking over history, too. I remember watching Brad Pitt discuss Troy on the History channel. It was priceless.


That is just to much. Remember when Tom Hanks became an "expert" on world war II because he was in a movie about it.

Also, I was at the Hayden planetarium for a show where Tom Hanks did the vioce over. He mispronounced "Io". Everyone laughed. I wish these actors would keep themselves to themselves and leave the nerd community alone.

And to think I almost respected Bradbury for writing Farenheit 451

Control, control, it's only an internet message board, you don't need to flip out, even if he did disrespect the original Starfleet uniforms. . .
*meditates**waxes in, waxes out*
Pheeew. Back in control now.

Hey, Canada is still pretty empty, considering its size.
That it is.

Just like the Spanish, the Portuguese, and the British did before you...oh wait, all their empires crumbled too. The taller they are, the harder they fall.
Only difference being those empires lacked the capacity to destroy the world however many times over. The US won't go without a severe fight.

Who cares? We did what we had to do and now look, we're the most powerful nation on Earth.

Good one. makes me laffffff AHHAHAAA
Besides, I thought Ray Bradburry was dead.
:gundge: This guy loooks like hes using the Bio rifle from UT...

In what way? The North American continent was populated by an Indian population ranging from 3 to 7 million. Canada and the US together are about 20 million square km. That sounds pretty empty to me.
The area of the continent of North America, all islands included, is 24,230,000km^2, says Wikipedia.Org. This includes all the islands, and I'll go ahead and assume it's the land area (if it's not, that only furthers my point). MSN Encarta says the native american population of North America north of Mexico is generally agreed to have been between 2 and 18 million pre-Columbus. 24,230,000km^2 minus the land area of current Mexico equals roughly 22,306,764km^2.Taking the average of the current range of estimates of the native american population, we get 10 million people on that land area.

With these assumptions, the population density of native americans in pre-Columbus North America north of current Mexico comes out as 0.448 people per square kilometer. To consider this "empty" would be to think that the State of Alaska is now completely void of humans, since it had 500,043 people living on 1,477,267.5km^2 in 1990 according to the US Census of that year, for a population density of 0.338.

I'm disappointed with Ray. I expect better from him. And yes, there were all sorts of people and other mammals running around N.America, including some of my ancestors, the Miqmaq (of what is now New Brunswick).

DT.

Cool! A neighbor! I'm from Nova Scotia :D

And it is insulting. Ray has fallen off his nut (but then again, was he ever ON it?).

Cool! A neighbor! I'm from Nova Scotia :D

And it is insulting. Ray has fallen off his nut (but then again, was he ever ON it?).

Howdy neighbour. Well, Ray was awfully good at writing...Fahrenheit 451 and The Martian Chronicles were two of the first few books I read as a child. The Martian Chronicles was the first book to elicit a strong emotional response in me.

I'm still just a little stunned to hear that he's spouting drivel like this now, though. Wait - I just gotta say it -

*ahem*

'It's a shame about Ray'.

LOL

Well, thats true at least for the North American continent.
Wrong. There were cities here that rivaled London at the time of "discovery"
You really need to read more.

If I needed to balance the intelligence between what Ray Bradbury said and
what posters in here are saying, I'm going to side with Bradbury. Because I
already know you guys are a bunch of dumbasses.

If I needed to balance the intelligence between what Ray Bradbury said and
what posters in here are saying, I'm going to side with Bradbury. Because I
already know you guys are a bunch of dumbasses.

Awww I didn't know you cared!

:fluffle:

Wrong. There were cities here that rivaled London at the time of "discovery"
You really need to read more.

That's if you're including Mexico, which people seem to be ignoring. But you're right, when the Spanish first arrived in Tenochtitlan, the population was something in the neihbourhood of a quarter million people. Teotihuacan (which I believe had been declining in population for some three hundred years pre-Columbus) was around sixty thousand (peaked at over one hundred thousand long before that. I believe Tikal was at a population of 35-50 thousand, Copan reached about twenty-five thousand, both however were uninhabited by the time conquistadors ever saw them. Not sure about Machu Pichu or Cuzco, maybe I'll look it up in my archaeology text book.

Well, compared with China and India, North America is still empty. Only 400 million people in 24 million sq km. That's like ten times less density.

I wonder how long it will be before Asians come to kill the vermin and fill the continent with real life.

Well, compared with China and India, North America is still empty. Only 400 million people in 24 million sq km. That's like ten times less density.

I wonder how long it will be before Asians come to kill the vermin and fill the continent with real life.


Oh, we plan to trash it long before that happens. I mean it's not like we could get our security deposit back or anything at this point so what the fuck, PARTY.

Wrong. There were cities here that rivaled London at the time of "discovery"
You really need to read more.
Cities that rivaled London eh? Which cities were those hmm?

The area of the continent of North America, all islands included, is 24,230,000km^2, says Wikipedia.Org. This includes all the islands, and I'll go ahead and assume it's the land area (if it's not, that only furthers my point). MSN Encarta says the native american population of North America north of Mexico is generally agreed to have been between 2 and 18 million pre-Columbus. 24,230,000km^2 minus the land area of current Mexico equals roughly 22,306,764km^2.Taking the average of the current range of estimates of the native american population, we get 10 million people on that land area.

With these assumptions, the population density of native americans in pre-Columbus North America north of current Mexico comes out as 0.448 people per square kilometer. To consider this "empty" would be to think that the State of Alaska is now completely void of humans, since it had 500,043 people living on 1,477,267.5km^2 in 1990 according to the US Census of that year, for a population density of 0.338.
Very interesting. But it's still terribly empty compared to the availebal landmass minus Mexico.

Seriously, he just did while being interviewed by Neil Cavuto.

According to Ray, it was "empty" with just a few "tribes wandering around" but then "we" filled it with life.

That dudes crazy.

Ooooh, wait, he's talking about the "red" chinese now...

This is priceless.


Is he going to burn a copy of fahrenheit 451 next? Has he genuinely lost his mind?

Cool! A neighbor! I'm from Nova Scotia :D

And it is insulting. Ray has fallen off his nut (but then again, was he ever ON it?).

Well that makes a rep from all three maritime provinces! Let's take over! hehe

Oh, we plan to trash it long before that happens. I mean it's not like we could get our security deposit back or anything at this point so what the fuck, PARTY.

Truer words were never spoken. Well, maybe they were. But still. Party.

This thread shoulda been called "everybody loves raymond"

I watched Ray Bradbury on Neil Cavuto's Your World today and even before he said "no life ...." I most even more surprised at how OLD Ray Bradbury is. In fact, before I saw him on today's show, I thought he died years ago. What little did I know!

Please give the old man a break. I had the distinct impression not everything upstairs was as it should be due to his age. And I mean no disrespect. I think he is one of the greatest SCI-FI authors of all time.

I watched Ray Bradbury on Neil Cavuto's Your World today and even before he said "no life ...." I most even more surprised at how OLD Ray Bradbury is. In fact, before I saw him on today's show, I thought he died years ago. What little did I know!

Please give the old man a break. I had the distinct impression not everything upstairs was as it should be due to his age. And I mean no disrespect. I think he is one of the greatest SCI-FI authors of all time.

I agree. I hope he just, uh, stops talking. Please, Ray. I love The Martian Chronicles and all that. Just. Stop. Talking.

I don't know if Bradbury was refering to this, but there is a theory with a fairly hefty chunk of evidence to support that North America was vastly underpopulated at the time of the European settlers landing. The theory runs that the Europeans brought some pretty nifty plagues over with them and tese plagues wiped out large chunks of the previously existing population (no immunity). Estimate vary, but 50-80% of the existing population being wiped out are not uncommon under this theory, and conforms well to the observed population drop in the population of North America in the 16th century. Basically North America was a vast unpopulated area when the setllers arrived (post-Columbian though).

Very interesting. But it's still terribly empty compared to the availebal landmass minus Mexico.

now knock out all the land that was totally unsuitable to agriculture. you can't hold vast empty expanses above where corn can grow against anybody.

That's if you're including Mexico, which people seem to be ignoring. But you're right, when the Spanish first arrived in Tenochtitlan, the population was something in the neihbourhood of a quarter million people. Teotihuacan (which I believe had been declining in population for some three hundred years pre-Columbus) was around sixty thousand (peaked at over one hundred thousand long before that. I believe Tikal was at a population of 35-50 thousand, Copan reached about twenty-five thousand, both however were uninhabited by the time conquistadors ever saw them. Not sure about Machu Pichu or Cuzco, maybe I'll look it up in my archaeology text book.

additionally, shortly before the arrival of europeans the mississipian culture had multiple full-scale cities north of mexico. in its day, cahokia was as big or bigger than most european cities at the time.

When the Europeans arrived, the Iroquois were well into the process of federating their extended tribal nation. sure, they were still technically neolithic, but they were developing the sort of political structure that might just have given them the edge over their rivals.

Of course we exploited those enmities to Europe's benefit, but I digress.

Look, Genocide back then wasn't against international law. So....drop it.

it is not in the law, so it is moral to do it? hang yourself :sniper:

The theory runs that the Europeans brought some pretty nifty plagues over with them and tese plagues wiped out large chunks of the previously existing population (no immunity).

This is true. The Aztec empire was defeated by disease as much as by guns. Most of their people and best warriors were killed by European viruses that were unknown in America. And this was almost 100 years before the Mayflower. In that time, diseases could easily travel a long way north and wipe out the Great Mississipian Civilization and severely weaken the Hodeenosaunee League, and decimate several others.

While the diesease theory is interesting, it is clearly not what Ray was talking about. He was comparing mars (lifeless) to the North American continent.

He thesis was this. North America was lifeless (or so close to it as to make no difference) before the arrival of europeans. I'm fairly sure he includes Mexico in this catagory. Then Europeans came, populated it and became the "Americans."

In a similar fashion we will go to lifeless mars and become Martians. (European ones that is).

edit: except for the french

In what way? The North American continent was populated by an Indian population ranging from 3 to 7 million. Canada and the US together are about 20 million square km. That sounds pretty empty to me.

Not all that empty, really. A lot of other places in the world weren't that different before industrial revolutions and population explosions.

now knock out all the land that was totally unsuitable to agriculture. you can't hold vast empty expanses above where corn can grow against anybody.
And now knock off the tribes that were nomadic hunters/gatherers instead of farmers.

I have some information that may be new to you: Indian civilization was on the decline! Their people abandoned their homes, and were dying off! Archeologists know this, and yet they keep it quiet because they want to say that everything was perfect! Guess what? It wasn't! :headbang:

I cannot believe this thread is still going.

When I left it yesterday, we were joking about Shatner.

My numbers one page back did not make any distinction between prime arable lands or temperate woodlands and cold wastelands or high mountain ranges. The square kilometer count probably even includes all lakes. Plus my numbers specifically excluded the area that currently belongs to Mexico. So, again, unless you think Alaska is currently less than empty, it would be silly to say North America was empty pre-Columbus.