NationStates Jolt Archive

I've often questioned the wisdom I've heard so often that working conditions today are so much better thanks to labor unions. But there's never any specific things given that the unions did that we should thank them for. It turns out that labor unions and the laws that empower them have been far more economically destructive than I'd ever imagined. Also, I distictly remember learning in mandatory government school that unions were "illegal" in the US before modern labor laws. Apparently that was a blatant lie.

Feel free to scream and throw things at me for suggesting such heresy only after you read the article.



Forgotten Facts of American Labor History (http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1685)


Just about everything that people think they know about labor unions and wage rates is wrong.

The standard tale that practically every student hears over the course of his education is that before the emergence of labor unions, American workers were terribly exploited and their wages were consistently falling. The improvement in labor's condition was due entirely or at least in large part to labor unionism and favorable federal legislation. In the absence of these, it is widely assumed, people would still be working 80-hour weeks and children would still be working in mines.
...(click the link for rest)

I've often questioned the wisdom I've heard so often that working conditions today are so much better thanks to labor unions. But there's never any specific things given that the unions did that we should thank them for. It turns out that labor unions and the laws that empower them have been far more economically destructive than I'd ever imagined. Also, I distictly remember learning in mandatory government school that unions were "illegal" in the US before modern labor laws. Apparently that was a blatant lie.

Feel free to scream and throw things at me for suggesting such heresy only after you read the article.



Forgotten Facts of American Labor History (http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1685)
No even as some one with slight right wing leanings the union movement in the UK has done a great deal for the rights of workers. Even if the self centred people of today don't want to join and pay thier subs but still accept every benefit and pay rise the union negotiates.
Because of the unions we have in the uk:
Standards of light space and heating for workers, minimum hoidays, the right to representation, the right to take your employer to court for unfair dismissal etc etc.
Yes all of these various gov'ts have brought in, but it has been the unions that have been the driving force.
Can't say much for the US but can't see why unions would not be a good thing for the workers there either.

um, ever hear about the 8 hr day...

8 for work,
8 for sleep
8 for leisure
= 24

the unions fought and won that.... notice how in modern times with fewer people in unions, that the 8 hr day is becoming something of the past, casualisation is on the increase and industrial relations is being murdered in the name of the employer?????

Fair wages, protection from exploitation and healthinsurances come to mind.
Damn them.

Wow, what a load of crap that article was.

Unions are a joke in the U.S. Teachers and government workers (cops, postal workers, clerks) make up the largest and most active unions. What an exploited group! Only a front for Democrat politicians who raise wages for votes.

If labor unions want to make a difference they should look to the developing world - Indonesia, China, India etc... There is where they could do some good for workers.

If labor unions want to make a difference they should look to the developing world - Indonesia, China, India etc... There is where they could do some good for workers.

Labour unions are unions of labourers, ie a bunch of people who work together pooling their tiny individual voices into a big voice to use in discussions with their employers. They aren't charities to go around the world doing good for people. They are the actual people.

Ok sure. Let's go ahead and send the kids back to work where they belong.

This is typical Ayn Rand worshipping laizzé-faire capitalist crap.

For one it ignores the growth of wages relative to inflation, which was negligable, and it ignores the grossly unfair distribution of capital between the working class and the capitalists.

Free-for-all capitalism eventually implodes, to remove the checks and balances on corporations would be like asking for another Great Depression.

This is typical Ayn Rand worshipping laizzé-faire capitalist crap.

For one it ignores the growth of wages relative to inflation, which was negligable, and it ignores the grossly unfair distribution of capital between the working class and the capitalists.

Niether I nor those who write for the Mises Institute worship Rand, but we do share her favorable opinion of free markets or laizzé-faire capitalism. As for the "unfair distrubution of capital", please spare me the marxist rhetoric. It is unreasonable to expect a non-marxist to always address marxist concerns.

As for the inflation...


Labor historians and activists would doubtless be at a loss to explain why, at a time when unionism was numerically negligible (a whopping three percent of the American labor force was unionized by 1900) and federal regulation all but nonexistent, real wages in manufacturing climbed an incredible 50 percent in the United States from 1860-1890, and another 37 percent from 1890-1914
(emphasis added)

Please note the use of the word "real", and I should point out that there was very little real inflation during those periods as the US dollar was still redeemable for real money.


Free-for-all capitalism eventually implodes, to remove the checks and balances on corporations would be like asking for another Great Depression.

There will be another great depression, and it will not be caused by economic freedom or "free-for-all capitalism."

It is unreasonable to expect a non-marxist to always address marxist concerns.

It is unreasonable to expect a capitalist to address criticisms of capitalism?

It is unreasonable to expect a capitalist to address criticisms of capitalism?

Within the context of an article about labor unions, yes. The point the author was trying to make is not one of economic theory, but of historical fact.

Labour unions are unions of labourers, ie a bunch of people who work together pooling their tiny individual voices into a big voice to use in discussions with their employers. They aren't charities to go around the world doing good for people. They are the actual people.

The tiny voices of the US unions (predominantly teachers and government workers) have 140,000 full time employees who are up to something. But I agree that they aren't going around the world doing good for people.

"According to a U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics survey, labor unions employ about 140,000 workers. Most labor union jobs are classified under business and financial operations or office and administrative support occupations. "

The biggest problems I see with Unions these days is that they are all about getting more and more every negotiation cycle. They do not look at the big picture. Even if their employer's market is in decline, they have to be on the brink of bankruptcy to back off the greed.

I would like to see a more univerally focused reform of labor issues rather than these unions just fight for above average wage increases all the time.

The biggest problems I see with Unions these days is that they are all about getting more and more every negotiation cycle. They do not look at the big picture. Even if their employer's market is in decline, they have to be on the brink of bankruptcy to back off the greed.

as opposed to the altruistic stockholders and bosses, who always keep their eye on the big picture and are mainly concerned about how what they do benefits everyone else and affects the future...

Trakken and Free Soviets: You are both right.

Wow I guess the author never looked into the coal mine industry in the 1800s and early 1900s.

Unionism is the result of a failure of managment.

Labor historians and activists would doubtless be at a loss to explain why, at a time when unionism was numerically negligible (a whopping three percent of the American labor force was unionized by 1900) and federal regulation all but nonexistent, real wages in manufacturing climbed an incredible 50 percent in the United States from 1860-1890, and another 37 percent from 1890-1914

because unionism has always had a much larger impact than its numbers alone would imply. and in the 1860-1914 range, the unionism around was largely revolutionary unionism. given the choice between revolution and wage increases, capitalists will choose wage-increases (after trying to have union people killed off, anyway).

of course, there were forces at work beyond just the unions putting pressure on the cappies. but they were not negligible. otherwise you have to hold the idea that those compaines that instituted the 8 hour day before the may 1, 1886 deadline are just some sort of coincidence.

Wow I guess the author never looked into the coal mine industry in the 1800s and early 1900s.

Unionism is the result of a failure of managment.
Not a failure of the managment. It's a result of the greed of the managers of those days. Who exploited the workers, often with government support, for everything they were worth.

Not a failure of the managment. It's a result of the greed of the managers of those days. Who exploited the workers, often with government support, for everything they were worth.

But that is the point;

A "properly" managed company does not need a union.

;)

But that is the point;

A "properly" managed company does not need a union.

;)
Ok. Thats true. The Krupp, or Thyssen, steel works beeing a prime example of that. The workers were proud to be a Kruppianer.

"Were?" You mean they're not anymore?

Now, why would that be?

Oh, I see.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2231403.stm

Now, why would that be?
Somehow I have the feeling your suggesting that it's the fault of the unions. :rolleyes:

"Low labour costs mean the Chinese can run the plant profitably and, unlike in Europe, there is booming demand for steel in China."

The german economy, as is presently run, is done for.

The german economy, as is presently run, is done for.
It sure is. But the government is the bad guy in that. They waste billions upon billions while at the same time demanding that everyone should make sacrifices.

I've often questioned the wisdom I've heard so often that working conditions today are so much better thanks to labor unions. But there's never any specific things given that the unions did that we should thank them for. It turns out that labor unions and the laws that empower them have been far more economically destructive than I'd ever imagined. Also, I distictly remember learning in mandatory government school that unions were "illegal" in the US before modern labor laws. Apparently that was a blatant lie.

Feel free to scream and throw things at me for suggesting such heresy only after you read the article.



Forgotten Facts of American Labor History (http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1685)

WHile more than jsut labor unions got us out of the coal mines, its important to remember the essential role unions play in today's world. Most unions now are able to negoctiate contracts for things such as healthcare, sick days, better pay. Without the teachers union my dad wouldn't have the health plan we all use. The article is trying to generalize labor unions as a single entity for all labor. In reality its not though. The teacher's union or the king kullen union didn't establish the 40 hour work week for everyone, but they could have established it for their members first.

The problem with trade unions in the U.K. was that they got greedy on power and money. Far from the origins of socialism, with its required responsibility and respect for the commune's well-being, the unions attached themselves to the Labour Party (before it became a centre-right Blairite morass) and hijacked it. After they had achieved their more-than-reasonable wage-packets, they continued to demand more and more money, using the means of production to hold the country to ransom. I'm a socialist, and a pretty extreme one at that, but I resent the selfish display that the greedy and grasping self-proclaimed socialists put on for the nation. Eventually it turned into a case of, for the citizen, "Fine. I don't want your pissing electricity, I'll use a pissing candle. Go **** yourself.", and to that I say bravo. The ONLY thing I support the Thatcher government for is the beat-down they handed to the trade unions.

The trade unions should have stuck to protecting the workers' rights once they had achieved them... not ever striking out for more money.

The problem with trade unions in the U.K. was that they got greedy on power and money. Far from the origins of socialism, with its required responsibility and respect for the commune's well-being, the unions attached themselves to the Labour Party (before it became a centre-right Blairite morass) and hijacked it. After they had achieved their more-than-reasonable wage-packets, they continued to demand more and more money, using the means of production to hold the country to ransom. I'm a socialist, and a pretty extreme one at that, but I resent the selfish display that the greedy and grasping self-proclaimed socialists put on for the nation. Eventually it turned into a case of, for the citizen, "Fine. I don't want your pissing electricity, I'll use a pissing candle. Go **** yourself.", and to that I say bravo. The ONLY thing I support the Thatcher government for is the beat-down they handed to the trade unions.

The trade unions should have stuck to protecting the workers' rights once they had achieved them... not ever striking out for more money.
Bollocks! the problem with unions is they get too wrapped up in politics and forget the membership, who they are there to represent in relation with the employer, not the Gov. Want to influence politics join a political party.
The decline of unions in the UK is down to this socialist crap that makes middle of the road members want nothing to do with them.

The biggest problems I see with Unions these days is that they are all about getting more and more every negotiation cycle. They do not look at the big picture. Even if their employer's market is in decline, they have to be on the brink of bankruptcy to back off the greed.

I would like to see a more univerally focused reform of labor issues rather than these unions just fight for above average wage increases all the time.
I agree, and the best way to do that is to have everyone join one big union.

www.iww.org

I've often questioned the wisdom I've heard so often that working conditions today are so much better thanks to labor unions. But there's never any specific things given that the unions did that we should thank them for. It turns out that labor unions and the laws that empower them have been far more economically destructive than I'd ever imagined. Also, I distictly remember learning in mandatory government school that unions were "illegal" in the US before modern labor laws. Apparently that was a blatant lie.

Feel free to scream and throw things at me for suggesting such heresy only after you read the article.



Forgotten Facts of American Labor History (http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1685)

Labor unions continue to destroy education in America. Ask your child about the last time they discussed politics in the classroom. Seriously. My child has been the only (openly exposed) Republican for three years in a row. I commend him, but when he graduates, I will sue those biased union employees.

Labor unions continue to destroy education in America. Ask your child about the last time they discussed politics in the classroom. Seriously. My child has been the only (openly exposed) Republican for three years in a row. I commend him, but when he graduates, I will sue those biased union employees.
Why would they discuss politics in a classroom unless the class is dedicated to doing so?

I've often questioned the wisdom I've heard so often that working conditions today are so much better thanks to labor unions. But there's never any specific things given that the unions did that we should thank them for. It turns out that labor unions and the laws that empower them have been far more economically destructive than I'd ever imagined. Also, I distictly remember learning in mandatory government school that unions were "illegal" in the US before modern labor laws. Apparently that was a blatant lie.

Feel free to scream and throw things at me for suggesting such heresy only after you read the article.



Forgotten Facts of American Labor History (http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1685)

Labor Unions are 100% responsible for "OUT-SOURCING", and WE thank them for their failure position, because it is helping the US and world economies, and contributing to the failure of US democraps.

Labor Unions are 100% responsible for "OUT-SOURCING", and WE thank them for their failure position, because it is helping the US and world economies, and contributing to the failure of US democraps.No, greedy bosses are 100% responsible for outsourcing.

Unions work in Europe and I'm happy with that. Let's face it, the U.S. is just behind in social matters.

No, greedy bosses are 100% responsible for outsourcing.

No, greedy consumers are.

Unions work in Europe and I'm happy with that. Let's face it, the U.S. is just behind in social matters.
We noticed. ;)

No, greedy bosses are 100% responsible for outsourcing.

How many union employees are on your payroll?

Unions work in Europe and I'm happy with that. Let's face it, the U.S. is just behind in social matters.

Keep working, "Happy guy". Don't forget to set your alarm.

No, greedy bosses are 100% responsible for outsourcing.

Mucho gripos, No factos.

Unions work in Europe and I'm happy with that. Let's face it, the U.S. is just behind in social matters.

We are dumping unions. You are many years behind.

We noticed. ;)

I must go. You guys need your rest.

ok i'm a union member and my union provides me with

financial advice and support
legal advice
employment dispute representation
pay negotiators
terms and conditions of contract negotiators

and much much more. I work for one of the most progressive forward thinking companies in the uk, but this company would not be able to keep it's staff if it weren't for the changes in employee terms and conditions that my union has negotiated.

unions protect staff and support them. they've brought about laws that say you can't be made to work for so many hours at a time, that you are entitled to reasonable breaks, training to do your job, and in the uk you are entitled to a minimum wage, whatever you do, that you are entitled to sick pay, maternitly leave, paternity leave.

If the company has staff that need to form a union to make voices heard then they need to look at the way they are manageing staff. however a company that works with a union can find the union to be a useful ally if they work togethr to promote both the needs of the business and the rights and needs of the staff

Why would they discuss politics in a classroom unless the class is dedicated to doing so?

Because teachers are union employees (in the US), and most will not argue with the union propaganda. I have taught my son to argue his position. So far, it is OK. If I see any discrimination, I will sue the phony ACLU.

Here's my take on labor unions in America.

I strongly support the initial purpose, intentions and creations of labor unions. They were desperately needed to provide a counter to the bosses of the age. They were indispensible in the creation of modern workers rights, safety, etc.

However....

Most modern unions have become just as corrupt as the bosses/businesses they seek to protect the workers against. While the worker still retains the original ideals, the management has forgotten its own worker roots and feeds off of the dues paid to them every year. They push for strikes against struggling companies, support idiot workers just because they are "brothers", and push for benefits/pay that encourage the companies to outsource.
Some local examples:

My father (lifelong union man) was killed in an industrial accident at work. My mom applied for COBRA (insurance). The union raised it prices, (illegally) refused it to her for a few months, then (when called on it) backdated the paperwork and demanded she pay over 4 months of premiums.

A local Auto parts plant recently closed because the unions were constantly striking asking for more benefits (they already had some of the highest in the area). Every time the company would give them a benefit/pay increase, within a few months, they would strike again asking for more. Now they're all out of work.

The Firestone Tire plant in Decatur closed after the whole Ford Exploder debacle. The workers struck even after it came out that the majority of the tires had been made at their plant. The company gave the union all its demands and then laid off everybody.

The local Catterpillar plant had its wokers striking EVERY YEAR. They used it as a vacation. One year they kept going longer than usual and the company put its managers on the floor. Production went up w/ less that 50% staffing.

I still support the intention of unions but they need to do an overhaul of their practices and goals before they either drive all the work overseas or push so hard that unions are outlawed.

No, greedy bosses are 100% responsible for outsourcing.


No, greedy consumers are.
That too.

Mucho gripos, No factos.
More like logic.

Unions work in Europe and I'm happy with that. Let's face it, the U.S. is just behind in social matters.

Keep working, "Happy guy". Don't forget to set your alarm.

We are dumping unions. You are many years behind.

You needed two posts?

I take that back. You're not behind in social matters. You never started.

Here's my take on labor unions in America.

I strongly support the initial purpose, intentions and creations of labor unions. They were desperately needed to provide a counter to the bosses of the age. They were indispensible in the creation of modern workers rights, safety, etc.

However....

Most modern unions have become just as corrupt as the bosses/businesses they seek to protect the workers against. While the worker still retains the original ideals, the management has forgotten its own worker roots and feeds off of the dues paid to them every year.

yup, its past time end the reformist top-down unions that are inevitably run by people more interested in their own perks and gaining political sway. bring on bottom-up syndicalist unions. http://www.iww.org/