NationStates Jolt Archive

What are your thoughts on discrimination against older people? It wasn't until I reached about 55 that I first experienced prejudice on a personal level. The older I got, the harder it was to find a decent job. I don't think it's coincidence that the highest percentage of suits filed under the equal employment opportunity laws are by Americans over 40.

At a personal level, I find there is serious stereotyping of older people. Even though I have taken good care of myself, maintain a very upbeat and "youthful" attitude, and do not consider myself "old" in any way other than chrological age, I know that I have been denied jobs, been told that I'm "too old" by certain people, and been sterotyped in other ways as well.

What relevance does the fact the the earth has made 61 circuits of its star since I was born have to anything ? Do my mental and emotional age, and my relatively youthful appearance ( at least to most ) have no relevance at all?

Those who decry discimination against women, minorities and ethic groups, and discrimination based on sexual prefernce do so rightly, I think. But they seem to be strangely silent when it comes to age discrimination.

Your thoughts on this?

take hedance in the fact that no other society in human history has been so genred to the youth, and as far as im concerned, not coincidently we have the most un-intellectually motivated society in ages.

My very brief thoughts

1)Discrimination based on age is a problem, and I think it has to do more with money than anything else. Let's face it, someone with 30 years of experience will command a higher salary than a young whippersnapper straight out of college. :rolleyes:

2)Age discrimination cuts both ways, at least socially. I've been told that my opinions weren't worth the breath used to express them simply because I'm young. Though I'll admit that it's harder for an older person to find a job than a younger "energetic" person. In terms of economics, you're right, and for once a liberal and conservative can agree. :)

My very brief thoughts

1)Discrimination based on age is a problem, and I think it has to do more with money than anything else. Let's face it, someone with 30 years of experience will command a higher salary than a young whippersnapper straight out of college. :rolleyes:
Although I hadn't included what might be termed "reverse age discrimination" in the original post, your point is well taken. Many times I find that older people who draw high salaries are replaced by younger ones who do the same job with lower salaries. I suspect the thinking on discrimination against the youthful job-seeker is also under-addressed because the assumption is that youth is more of an advantage than age, which isn't necessarily so.

2)Age discrimination cuts both ways, at least socially. I've been told that my opinions weren't worth the breath used to express them simply because I'm young. Though I'll admit that it's harder for an older person to find a job than a younger "energetic" person. In terms of economics, you're right, and for once a liberal and conservative can agree. :)
I've often wondered why we as a nation can't seem to get it through our heads that brainpower and talent is no respector of age, race, sex or almost anything else.

BTW ... I'm not a conservative. :)

Discrimination is wrong now matter what the situation.

There lies a problem with the "free market" philosophy. You should be able to discriminate against whomever you want.

Just say Bin Laden is behind it and then the goverment will outlaw it! ;)

Of course it's wrong. But you have to be reasonable.

I mean...the average (not all) 55 year old isn't cut out for strenuous physical labour or military service, IMO. I don't view that so much as discrimination...

Other kinds of work I have no problem with though.

BTW ... I'm not a conservative. :)

I've assumed from your previous posts that you were a conservative; how do you classify yourself then?

I had assumed from your comments about older people losing jobs and not being able to find new ones that you were hinting at "reverse age discrimination," btw.

I've often wondered why we as a nation can't seem to get it through our heads that brainpower and talent is no respector of age, race, sex or almost anything else.
Here's to that.

I've assumed from your previous posts that you were a conservative; how do you classify yourself then?
I try not to. At one point, I called myself a liberal. Later I thought I was a conservative. After considerable thought and soul-searching, I decided that I really didn't agree much of the time with positions taken by either. Now I just call myself "Forrest." :)


I had assumed from your comments about older people losing jobs and not being able to find new ones that you were hinting at "reverse age discrimination," btw.
Ok. My mistake. :)

Here's to that.
Glad to see we agree on this. I really don't think liberals can overlook age discrimination to be consistent. I don't think conservatives can afford to overlook some of the nation's most valuable resources. IMHO, both liberals and conservatives should be vhemently opposed to discrimination of any sort.

Bah, old farts, go back to eating your strained peas :D

I once spent part of a summer in the company of a man in his sixties. He would complain endlessly about 'young people' (I was in my mid-twenties at the time) and how they had things so much better than he did in his day. Kept on and on about the Great Depression, and how it had been so hard for his generation. In his opinion, the 'young people' bogged down in recession and unemployment in the early 90s were just a bunch of spoiled brats.

I remained respectfully quiet on those occasions, until I finally thought it all through and called bullshit on his stories of hardship. I did the math - and this guy had been twenty years old in 1950. I told him that he couldn't possibly know what things are like for 'young people' today (90s) - although his parents might have. He'd just gotten used to the idea that because he'd been alive at the time, that he'd been the one enduring the misery of that era.

He'd graduated university with a management position waiting for him, like most of the 'young people' he'd gone to school with. A lifelong position, with benefits and a pension plan and job security, none of which was currently on offer for the 'spoiled brats' of today. He'd been able to take early retirement and live comfortably without the need to work. I let him know that that was no longer considered a realistic goal by most.

After I told him about my lettered friends having to flip burgers to make ends meet, he flat-out refused to believe me. Told me I was making it up. He just couldn't seem to wrap his head around the idea that he might have had it better than he thought, certainly better than the average modern graduate.

So ageism can and does work both ways. I don't harbour ill will towards the old, but I sometimes do for people looking to bullshit me, regardless of age.

Ok. My mistake. :)

Upon reading your original post a second time, I couldn't find anything about older people losing jobs--only comments about the difficulties of older people in finding new ones. So it lookes like we both made mistakes. ;)

I guess I associate looking for a new job with being "laid off," which often is used as a convienent excuse to fire older workers (with no legitimate reason) and bring in cheaper, younger ones a few months later.

As for Goed Twee, meh, ignore him. He knows not of what he speaks. I can see Dobbs Town's point though, as I want(ed?) to be a high school teacher but the profession is in for some hard times because of nasty little things like NCLB, whch is hell from a teacher's point of view. (If you get stuck with a class that's collectively below grade level, NCLB's going to give you lots of trouble.)

Upon reading your original post a second time, I couldn't find anything about older people losing jobs--only comments about the difficulties of older people in finding new ones. So it lookes like we both made mistakes. ;)

I guess I associate looking for a new job with being "laid off," which often is used as a convienent excuse to fire older workers (with no legitimate reason) and bring in cheaper, younger ones a few months later.

As for Goed Twee, meh, ignore him. He knows not of what he speaks. I can see Dobbs Town's point though, as I want(ed?) to be a high school teacher but the profession is in for some hard times because of nasty little things like NCLB, whch is hell from a teacher's point of view. (If you get stuck with a class that's collectively below grade level, NCLB's going to give you lots of trouble.)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=joke
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sense%20of%20humour

Oy :p

the only thing about the elderly which bugs me is how much they complain about modern 'indecency' when they come from the age where blacks were called 'darkies' and women had little choice but to stay at home and male english majors were considered homosexuals- now THAT'S what i can indecent!

Oy :p

Discrimination isn't something to joke about.

Discrimination isn't something to joke about.

One can joke about anything and everything.

Part of being human.

Glad to see we agree on this. I really don't think liberals can overlook age discrimination to be consistent. I don't think conservatives can afford to overlook some of the nation's most valuable resources. IMHO, both liberals and conservatives should be vhemently opposed to discrimination of any sort.

You are right unwarranted discrimination of any sort is wrong. By "unwarranted", I mean based in something that does not affect the job and is not something the person can help.

While many 55 year-olds may not be cut out for strenuous labor anymore, some really are. And much like I think any woman who wants to should be able to hold down any job with physical requirements if she can meet them, I would say the same for those who are older than the average job-holder.

However, if an older person is working the same job as a younger person, and does not have years and years more experience/education/etc, that person should also not expect to be treated differently than their coworkers.

Upon reading your original post a second time, I couldn't find anything about older people losing jobs--only comments about the difficulties of older people in finding new ones. So it lookes like we both made mistakes. ;)

I guess I associate looking for a new job with being "laid off," which often is used as a convienent excuse to fire older workers (with no legitimate reason) and bring in cheaper, younger ones a few months later.

As for Goed Twee, meh, ignore him. He knows not of what he speaks. I can see Dobbs Town's point though, as I want(ed?) to be a high school teacher but the profession is in for some hard times because of nasty little things like NCLB, whch is hell from a teacher's point of view. (If you get stuck with a class that's collectively below grade level, NCLB's going to give you lots of trouble.)

I briefly considered something called "lateral entry" which would have given me credit for my previous education and military experience toward becoming a teacher, but there were so many obstables in the way that I gave it up as a lost cause. Sigh.

I really hate to say this, but it almost looks like from here on out, I'm going to have to be satisfied with pretty menial jobs until I can either get my online business strong enough to pay the bills, or until I can qualify for early social security at 62. I had planned on donating my SS benefits to charity, but now .... :(

You are right unwarranted discrimination of any sort is wrong. By "unwarranted", I mean based in something that does not affect the job and is not something the person can help.

While many 55 year-olds may not be cut out for strenuous labor anymore, some really are. And much like I think any woman who wants to should be able to hold down any job with physical requirements if she can meet them, I would say the same for those who are older than the average job-holder.

However, if an older person is working the same job as a younger person, and does not have years and years more experience/education/etc, that person should also not expect to be treated differently than their coworkers.
That's much the same thought process I went through several years ago when I was trying to decide how I felt about women in the military. I finally concluded that any woman who could handle the job, even in combat roles, and who wanted it should have it.

I also agree with the equal treatment statement about older/younger workers being treated the same. However, I also think that ( all other things being equal ) experience should be acknowledged, with the understanding that things can change rapidly making previously acquired skills virtually obsolete.

What are your thoughts on discrimination against older people? It wasn't until I reached about 55 that I first experienced prejudice on a personal level. The older I got, the harder it was to find a decent job. I don't think it's coincidence that the highest percentage of suits filed under the equal employment opportunity laws are by Americans over 40.

At a personal level, I find there is serious stereotyping of older people. Even though I have taken good care of myself, maintain a very upbeat and "youthful" attitude, and do not consider myself "old" in any way other than chrological age, I know that I have been denied jobs, been told that I'm "too old" by certain people, and been sterotyped in other ways as well.

What relevance does the fact the the earth has made 61 circuits of its star since I was born have to anything ? Do my mental and emotional age, and my relatively youthful appearance ( at least to most ) have no relevance at all?

Those who decry discimination against women, minorities and ethic groups, and discrimination based on sexual prefernce do so rightly, I think. But they seem to be strangely silent when it comes to age discrimination.

Your thoughts on this?

I think it is wrong of course (gasp) though on the other end teens take it up the ass for that too.

The only thing I support (and I think is fair because of the other end of the spectrum) is driving tests as abilities decline *gasp* at around 65+

Now I know this may be ageism but after spending years fixing mailboxes that my grandma hit

Or working at an assisted care living facility as an elderly woman dropped her glasses and forgot to put the car in park as she reached down hit the gas and went through the front door of one of the buildings putting 4 people in the hospital.

I see it … specially when they are put in a position of quick judgment (I am trying to find an online source … a local police report said that studies showed after age 70 the average reaction time for a person declined past the point that if they would be 40 years old it would be about the same as if they were .10 intoxicated

But anyways my rant

Job opportunities (baring something like construction where there are physical limitations) should NOT be denied

the only thing about the elderly which bugs me is how much they complain about modern 'indecency' when they come from the age where blacks were called 'darkies' and women had little choice but to stay at home and male english majors were considered homosexuals- now THAT'S what i can indecent!

shaaaddup

the only thing about the elderly which bugs me is how much they complain about modern 'indecency' when they come from the age where blacks were called 'darkies' and women had little choice but to stay at home and male english majors were considered homosexuals- now THAT'S what i can indecent!
I tend to agree, but a bit of compassion for those raised in an entirely differnt age and who are unable to change would also be appropriate, don't you think? :)

I agree with you completely Etrusca. If I were to run a company (like thats ever going to happen), I would gladly welcome experience over youth. Our corporate sector is absolutely obsessed with cost cutting and is rapidly turning its back on quality.

Buying American used to mean something, now it just means shopping at Wal-Mart.

I see it … specially when they are put in a position of quick judgment (I am trying to find an online source … a local police report said that studies showed after age 70 the average reaction time for a person declined past the point that if they would be 40 years old it would be about the same as if they were .10 intoxicated.

Job opportunities (baring something like construction where there are physical limitations) should NOT be denied
I agree. The determing factor, for both anti-discrimination and practicality, should be the necessary requirements of the job ... you can do them, you qualify.

When I get to the point where I can't get it up, please shoot me! :D

I agree with you completely Etrusca. If I were to run a company (like thats ever going to happen), I would gladly welcome experience over youth. Our corporate sector is absolutely obsessed with cost cutting and is rapidly turning its back on quality.

Buying American used to mean something, now it just means shopping at Wal-Mart.
Pursuit of the almighty dollar. :(

That's another of my pet peeves: material things and/or the money to buy them satisfy only until they wear out, break down, are used up, etc. Where the problem comes in at the top is that most people who get there measure their success and their worth by how much money they make. Unfortunately, this is also one of the engines which drive much creativeness, entreprenuership, salesmanship, and the economy in general. It's a classic conundrum.

I agree. The determing factor, for both anti-discrimination and practicality, should be the necessary requirements of the job ... you can do them, you qualify.

When I get to the point where I can't get it up, please shoot me! :D
Yup hell working in the tech field we don’t tend to see older gentleman as anything but managerial positions

But at my collage we have some glaring examples of how not to underestimate the power of a driven mind.

Thad … he is one of our four main cisco guys on campus … 70 + years old and among the top network guys I have ever met. Man for 70 + he can learn the changes to Cisco’s ios for our newer 3550’s like no tomorrow and write some mean scripts to interface with them
Don’t count people out just because they don’t fit in the stereotype

Yup hell working in the tech field we don’t tend to see older gentleman as anything but managerial positions

But at my collage we have some glaring examples of how not to underestimate the power of a driven mind.

Thad … he is one of our four main cisco guys on campus … 70 + years old and among the top network guys I have ever met. Man for 70 + he can learn the changes to Cisco’s ios for our newer 3550’s like no tomorrow and write some mean scripts to interface with them
Don’t count people out just because they don’t fit in the stereotype
Way kewl, dude! LOL! :D

I briefly considered something called "lateral entry" which would have given me credit for my previous education and military experience toward becoming a teacher, but there were so many obstables in the way that I gave it up as a lost cause. Sigh.

I really hate to say this, but it almost looks like from here on out, I'm going to have to be satisfied with pretty menial jobs until I can either get my online business strong enough to pay the bills, or until I can qualify for early social security at 62. I had planned on donating my SS benefits to charity, but now .... :(

The ironic thing is that, from what I've heard, most of the teacher certification tests aren't difficult at all. At least not in IL.

But then there's the bureaucratic stuff you have to go through to be allowed to take a cert test. Truman State University (my current college) expects me to complete x amount of teacher observation hours by the end of sophomore year for a graduate education program. I've lost heart, and I don't think I'm going to get my hours in time.

The sad thing is, when I was in high school, I heard all these gloom and doom stories about impending teacher shortages. So I thought that my talents would be best used to teach others, and I had faith that by the time I graduated from college, the causes of the teacher shortages would have been addressed. They've gotten worse.

In high school, people tried to discourage me from teaching because teachers are grossly underpaid, with most of the exceptions being in elite private schools. I thought the free market would correct this. Instead, class sizes have gone up, and school districts all over are asking teachers to take paycuts.

To exasperate the problem, teachers are having to deal with the standardized test junk on top of their pay cuts. This means teaching to the test in order to make sure the kids fill in the right bubbles, which is just sad...I couldn't teach like that. But if your students learn nice little things like, I donno, critical thinking and logical reasoning, they might not have time to learn how to get a perfect score on (insert achievement exam here), because most such exams test for watered-down stuff that fits well into multiple choice questions. So my students would likely be able to hold a reasoned debate (showing that I taught them something of importance) but they might only get a mediocre score on an exam that asks "On what date did former president Grover Cleveland die?" :rolleyes:

On top of this, teachers are villified for not doing their jobs. When they do their jobs, parents find something else to gripe about, like the curriculum, and still blame the teacher.

How torn I am right now, trying to reconcile my altruistic desires with a system that is falling apart before my eyes. :(

But I digress. This thread was supposed to be about age discrimination, not becoming a teacher. And yes, I strongly disagree with a society that 'respects' its elders by forcing them, through poverty (or something close to it), to become Wal-Mart greeters. Blech. I thought the whole concept behind retirement was supposed to be "I've been contributing to society for my entire life, and now it's time for me to sit back, relax, and enjoy the years I have ahead of me?" :cool: I sure don't want to spend my years as a senior citizen working for a low wage, but Social Security will probably be gone before I get to that point. *sigh*

Eutrusca, I am not overly optimistic about my generation being able to continue the prosperity that your generation enjoyed. Even young people are losing their jobs because overseas labor is cheaper.

I might not be able to respond to any thoughts you might have for a few days, as I will be leaving to visit family in a few hours. They do not have Internet access.

The ironic thing is that, from what I've heard, most of the teacher certification tests aren't difficult at all. At least not in IL.

But then there's the bureaucratic stuff you have to go through to be allowed to take a cert test. Truman State University (my current college) expects me to complete x amount of teacher observation hours by the end of sophomore year for a graduate education program. I've lost heart, and I don't think I'm going to get my hours in time.

The sad thing is, when I was in high school, I heard all these gloom and doom stories about impending teacher shortages. So I thought that my talents would be best used to teach others, and I had faith that by the time I graduated from college, the causes of the teacher shortages would have been addressed. They've gotten worse.

In high school, people tried to discourage me from teaching because teachers are grossly underpaid, with most of the exceptions being in elite private schools. I thought the free market would correct this. Instead, class sizes have gone up, and school districts all over are asking teachers to take paycuts.

To exasperate the problem, teachers are having to deal with the standardized test junk on top of their pay cuts. This means teaching to the test in order to make sure the kids fill in the right bubbles, which is just sad...I couldn't teach like that. But if your students learn nice little things like, I donno, critical thinking and logical reasoning, they might not have time to learn how to get a perfect score on (insert achievement exam here), because most such exams test for watered-down stuff that fits well into multiple choice questions. So my students would likely be able to hold a reasoned debate (showing that I taught them something of importance) but they might only get a mediocre score on an exam that asks "On what date did former president Grover Cleveland die?" :rolleyes:

On top of this, teachers are villified for not doing their jobs. When they do their jobs, parents find something else to gripe about, like the curriculum, and still blame the teacher.

How torn I am right now, trying to reconcile my altruistic desires with a system that is falling apart before my eyes. :(

But I digress. This thread was supposed to be about age discrimination, not becoming a teacher. And yes, I strongly disagree with a society that 'respects' its elders by forcing them, through poverty (or something close to it), to become Wal-Mart greeters. Blech. I thought the whole concept behind retirement was supposed to be "I've been contributing to society for my entire life, and now it's time for me to sit back, relax, and enjoy the years I have ahead of me?" :cool: I sure don't want to spend my years as a senior citizen working for a low wage, but Social Security will probably be gone before I get to that point. *sigh*

Eutrusca, I am not overly optimistic about my generation being able to continue the prosperity that your generation enjoyed. Even young people are losing their jobs because overseas labor is cheaper.

I might not be able to respond to any thoughts you might have for a few days, as I will be leaving to visit family in a few hours. They do not have Internet access.
To quote Monty Python, "Run away!" You've actually made me glad I didn't go into teaching!

Your comment about overseas labor being cheaper is well taken. Unfortunately the global economy is inevitable. The best most of us can do is to try and cope through creativity, entreprenuership and hard work. This will not be possible for some people. I sometimes find myself wondering what sort of things, or lack thereof, will decide who winds up in the "underclass."

I fear for my grandchildren. :(

Hope you have a nice trip! :)

If you're not a white male aged 18-49 you stand a pretty good chance of being discriminated against on some level..

To quote Monty Python, "Run away!" You've actually made me glad I didn't go into teaching!

Your comment about overseas labor being cheaper is well taken. Unfortunately the global economy is inevitable. The best most of us can do is to try and cope through creativity, entreprenuership and hard work. This will not be possible for some people. I sometimes find myself wondering what sort of things, or lack thereof, will decide who winds up in the "underclass."

I fear for my grandchildren. :(

Hope you have a nice trip! :)

As nervous as I am about the future, I retain a sliver of hope that this country will get the balls to address its problems while there is still time. But I'm not counting on it. I have yet to see a politician who isn't asleep at the switch. Oh, how I wish the nation would have paid heed twenty-seven years ago when President Carter warned of the dangers of energy dependence! (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/filmmore/ps_energy.html) Sadly, Carter was politically crucified by the Iranian hostage crisis, so his energy policy went into the dustbin. Now we're stuck in an unsavory relationship with Saudi Arabia, one of the world's worst dictatorships, because we need their oil. Clicky (http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2004-05-10-saudi-oil_x.htm) Another Clicky (http://www.countercurrents.org/peakoil-gerth250204.htm) Had American society encouraged research into nifty things like alternative energy twenty-five years ago, we might not be in this position today. Instead, $$$ won out and this country took the path of least resistance.

This is only the stealth problem that we will have to face. Rising oil prices, a falling dollar, an increasing deficit, the collapse of Social Security, and any event that causes foreign countries to stop buying our Treauries might very well a Second Great Depression make. All of these problems should have been addressed long ago (indeed, Clinton placed a heavy emphasis on paying down the national debt, but those policies have since been reversed). Left unchecked, these problems will only get worse--they will not go away. And neither presidential candidate addressed any of these issues in a way that reflected the sacrifice necessary to solve these problems.

Hopefully, this country will not need "shock therapy" to address these problems. However, American innovation itself is being outsourced to India and China. And we needed this creativity you speak of a generation ago, to head off problems that will occur in my lifetime. Now, I fear it is too late. Current United States policy isn't exactly encouraging to scientific causes (especially in environmental studies), ya know.