NationStates Jolt Archive

[ http://www.freewillblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/4754/ ]

French troops firing indiscriminately on unarmed Ivory Coast civilians.

I thought the French were perfect and did not commit war crimes... guess the f***ers need to look at themselves before they point fingers at us Americans.

VIDEO:Note: Very Large Video/High Quality http://radioci.embaci.com/englishdownload/frenchsoldiershootingcivilians1.mpg
http://radioci.embaci.com/englishdownload/frenchsoldiersshootingcivilians2.mpg

ABIDJAN, Ivory Coast (AP) - Security forces opened fire Tuesday as thousands of angry government loyalists massed outside a French evacuation post for foreigners, reportedly killing seven people and wounding 200 in violence pitting France against its former prize colony.

France's military denied responsibility, saying it was loyalist demonstrators who opened fire as a French convoy left the post, and Ivorian security forces who returned fire.

Uh, well, that isn't going to fly, because the French are on video discharging their weapons, quite extensively at that. Nice try, though.

However, the 7 dead, 200 wounded looks plausible. (So does the 60. This is a very initial report from the AP and the Guardian, literally the day of, so who knows.)

The bloodletting erupted at a onetime luxury hotel French forces have commandeered as an evacuation center for 1,300 French and other foreigners rescued from rampages across the commercial capital, Abidjan.

An Associated Press photographer saw the bodies of three demonstrators outside a hospital, their bodies draped in Ivorian flags.

The French set up their evacuation center Monday a few hundred yards from the home of President Laurent Gbagbo, and the site has become a flashpoint for violence.

Automatic weapon fire Tuesday as thousands pressed around the center in protest, witnesses said.

What does that mean? Automatic weapon fire from protestors, at protestors, in protest of the earlier automatic weapon fire at protestors?

Four days of confrontations have killed at least 20 other people, wounded 700 and shut down cocoa exports from the world's largest producer.

On Tuesday, stunned protesters filled the hospital, and survivors lay out the bodies of some of the dead. A woman lay on the ground, screaming.

My French is a joke, but this LeMonde article seems to say that 7 were killed, as well as an Ivorian soldier, in a confrontation near the Hotel Ivoire. Anybody who speaks French who can translate in full?

Update: I can't get anything good from online translators, but the word "scuffle" keeps coming up, and based on something else I saw (but managed to lose) it seems like maybe they're saying that the French were supposed to be firing warning shots, and there was a stampede? That's a good excuse, and at least acknowledges that the French opened fire, but it also doesn't jibe. Essentially, it seems LeMonde reported it as fact that the French fired warning shots and the Ivorians trampled each other, while the AP headlines French troops firing on the crowd, but reports inside the story that France says they were Ivorian troops.

We do know they were French troops. Both stories are dated the 9th of November, and last week they seemed to be saying simply that they aren't responsible. I wonder what the French government line is now?

Update: Or... Reader Mark gives this translation in comments:

Abidjan, where the violence has continued since November 4, with a high toll already, was the scene of new conflict on tuesday november 9, provoking the death of 7 protesters and 1 ivorian soldier. As the government in Paris is troubled by the situation, the Ivory Coast government wishes to condemn France at the UN.
Seven Deaths at Abidjan.
French soldiers fired into crowds setting off a panic and killing 7 people and injuring several others. The "Young Patriots", supporters of President Laurent Gbagbo had been meeting not long before, in the vicinity of the Hotel Ivoire, which is controlled by French soldiers.

So, depending on how you read it, LeMonde appears to be confirming French troops firing at the crowds, something the French government apparently denied to the AP.

The tricky part seems to be the passage "des tirs de sommation", which I've seen translated as "firing warning shots" and "firing into crowds". Machine translators read it simply as "shootings of summation", and a French-English dictionary translated "sommation" as "summary", so now I'm curious.

Update: OK, there we go. In comments, reader Martin Adamson says his dictionary translates "tirs de sommation" as "warning shots". So, LeMonde was apparently told the French military fired warning shots that, by implication, caused a panic in which 7 people were killed.

When France tells the truth, how will we know?

Update: Is it possible that the first half of the video depicts the warning shots, but the second half depicts a direct attack on the crowd? I don't know, it seems to me that the French clearly shouldered their weapons in the first half, as though firing at the crowd, but it looks like almost everybody got back up. In the second half, you can also hear larger explosions, as though heavier munitions are being used as well.

Update: You're going to want to read the comments in this post from a Swiss fellow, Seewen. The French are saying some really surreal things about this.

I really thought the french were so much better than us, i thought they got UN approvals and never commited war crimes... unless war crimes CAN only be commited by an American.... I HATE THE FRENCH... I HATE EUrocrats....

The UN is actually helping the French.

That's why I don't like either France or the UN.

Par for the course, really. This is the country blocking UN action in Darfur, and also the country that banned Muslim headscarfs in schools.

ECHO! ...echo...echo...echo...echo...

TRUTH...Truth...truth...

Repost.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=375215

Wow, French army rifles actually being fired? Let me guess, the folks at Ivory Coast were unarmed.

In all seriousness, it's refreshing to see the French exposed for the cowardly hypocrites they are.

Repost.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=375215

Yes, and i've made my point in there previously, but i'll say it again, as this really pisses me off.

This is wrong and deserves to have attention called to it by all means.

However, all of you people using this simply because the perpetrators were French, and to express your hate ("I HATE THE FRENCH... I HATE EUrocrats") are bigoted arseholes. Truly.

Now please don't let this slide into a borderline...racist? "critique" of French and European culture and history.

[ http://www.freewillblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/4754/ ]

French troops firing indiscriminately on unarmed Ivory Coast civilians.

I thought the French were perfect and did not commit war crimes... guess the f***ers need to look at themselves before they point fingers at us Americans.


I agree with many of the criticisms of our war crimes record. However, I also condemn the French for doing the same exact thing in the Ivory Coast.

It is possible not to be hypocritical on these sorts of things. Yeah, this makes France look bad...but believe me, we've had our moments. :(

I agree with many of the criticisms of our war crimes record. However, I also condemn the French for doing the same exact thing in the Ivory Coast.

It is possible not to be hypocritical on these sorts of things. Yeah, this makes France look bad...but believe me, we've had our moments. :(

Good on you.

the french are *expletive*

search "french military victories" on google and click im feeling lucky

the french are *expletive*

search "french military victories" on google and click im feeling lucky

Congratulations, you too are a bigoted arsehole.

the french are *expletive*

search "french military victories" on google and click im feeling lucky

expletive? Just say it. They're what, fucked up? Shitty?

Out of curiosity, how much history do you know? Don't bother, rhetorical question. What you've said already proves you to be a dumbass.

Rock on France!

At least they are trying to solve problems, instead of starting them! :cool:

Does anyone really care about this? Its just another thing thats happening to the world that fucks it up. No matter what happened, Americans will always think the French are ass holes, and the French will always think teh Americans are pigs. This is how it is.

*yes I know Im generalizing and there are French and American people that do not hate each other. I don't care, go fuck yourself*

"Rock on" ??

I guess the french are trying to solve something that they caused by themselves! Or are they?

Being anti american is one thing, however when you blurt out stuff like that.

People are so blinded by their dislike of the US that everyone else is, and especially the Europeans are .... "rock on" !! Trying to solve something instead of starting....

Jeesh it's not even worth arguing.

Jeesh it's not even worth arguing.

Nothing on these boards is worth arguing. Every thread is made by someone with the fore thought of how they can beat the shit out of the people that oppose their view.

Nothing on these boards is worth arguing. Every thread is made by someone with the fore thought of how they can beat the shit out of the people that oppose their view.

Except when people are making threads to make people laugh, I guess.

Except when people are making threads to make people laugh, I guess.

Well if you're saying this thread was made to make people laugh you're both wrong and right. Americans will laugh, because that is what we do. And everyone else will be angry, because Americans make a big deal out of it. Its not something that was meant to be funny, it was meant to piss off the French and make Americans happy.

the best you can hope for from any world power is that it will shine light on the sins of its neighbors. if you really thought france wasn't capible of horrific violence in its former colonies(which i doubt), study up on algeria a little bit.

as for ivory coast, the french are playing hard ball, but its probably not at war crime levels, and the ivorian government definitely cause this round of violence with its offensive against the rebels and the murder of 8(?) french soldiers last week.

Now if this had been American troops involved in the massacre, apologists would use the "heat of battle" excuse to defend their actions.

It's funny how we fume and rave defensively against the rest of world unanimously lumping Americans as a group of ignorant, superstitious rednecks because of the re-election and the Bush Administration's actions overseas... yet when French Military troops stage an attack theoretically against insurgents that attacked and killed their troops first, we're all too anxious to classify the French as genetically arrogant and hypocritical.

Sure, its not good that they smoked some civilians, but I mean, c'mon, give them some slack. I don't exactly think that "the french", or whatever your calling this massive french collective that of course belives the same thing as each other becase they speak the same language, wanted this.

DO you really think the goverment would directly order them to ice these guys? I think not. It was the fault of the soldiers, not "the french."

Think about if guys, theres tons of americans, who are all americans, some people belive in, say, invading Iraq, others do not. But they are still americans. As you can see, you cannot just say "this country thinks that, people from this country have that belief" based on the actions of a few peacekeepers who are fucked in the head. Hell, if were gonna start doing that, your american record is gonna put you to death. Have "the French" bombed childrens hospitals? Have they funded terrorists to further their cause, even when these "freedom fighters" were men straight out of a mental asylum? No, they have not.

So if your gonna start playing the generalization game, pick your battles, friend.


and besides, before you start

Now if this had been American troops involved in the massacre, apologists would use the "heat of battle" excuse to defend their actions.

It's funny how we fume and rave defensively against the rest of world unanimously lumping Americans as a group of ignorant, superstitious rednecks because of the re-election and the Bush Administration's actions overseas... yet when French Military troops stage an attack theoretically against insurgents that attacked and killed their troops first, we're all too anxious to classify the French as genetically arrogant and hypocritical.


damn straight.

pop goes the weasel.

This whole thread is just a huge "Ad hominem tu quoque" (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html).

Not to mention that all the French bashing is so similar to US bashing that it's not even funny...

The difference between the Americans gunning down Iraqi in the street and French gunning down Ivorians in the street is that the French are effective and in a no lose situation.

The French are keeping north & south warring factions apart. They are doing this successfully, if they leave the Ivorians will look back at these deaths as a minor incident before resumption of a full blown civil war. If the French stick it out they can dictate the Ivorian peace. No lose or win situation for the French.

The Americans are imposing a new regime on Iraq, in the middle of a full blown guerilla war caused by the arrival of the Americans. If they leave a civil war will commence and every Iraqi will see the Americans at fault for starting it. If the Americans stay the guerilla war will continue and all Iraqi will see America as the aggressors who started it. To win the Americans must stop the guerilla war. Lose, lose or difficult win for the Americans.

The difference between the Americans gunning down Iraqi in the street and French gunning down Ivorians in the street is that the French are effective and in a no lose situation.

The French are keeping north & south warring factions apart. They are doing this successfully, if they leave the Ivorians will look back at these deaths as a minor incident before resumption of a full blown civil war. If the French stick it out they can dictate the Ivorian peace. No lose or win situation for the French.

The Americans are imposing a new regime on Iraq, in the middle of a full blown guerilla war caused by the arrival of the Americans. If they leave a civil war will commence and every Iraqi will see the Americans at fault for starting it. If the Americans stay the guerilla war will continue and all Iraqi will see America as the aggressors who started it. To win the Americans must stop the guerilla war. Lose, lose or difficult win for the Americans.


yes, we know. I'm just trying to tell this guy that not all "the french" are in like some sinister collective in which they be ultra hypocrites, just as americans are not.

yes, we know. I'm just trying to tell this guy that not all "the french" are in like some sinister collective in which they be ultra hypocrites, just as americans are not.

And you're totally right in doing so. :)

Rock on France!

At least they are trying to solve problems, instead of starting them! :cool:
Gonna have to call bull-shit, here. The French are the cause of most of the problems in all of west Africa.

Nice, go ahead and applaud attrocities committed by those you don't hate and resent. A new low for you.

Gonna have to call bull-shit, here. The French are the cause of most of the problems in all of west Africa.

Nice, go ahead and applaud attrocities committed by those you don't hate and resent. A new low for you.


Right now the French are stopping a civil war, so they look good. Especially compared to the Americans who have started a war.

I guess the french are trying to solve something that they caused by themselves!
What are those problems they have caused? They were there to keep the rebels in the north and the government forces in the south seperatet to prevent them from killing eachother. And yeah, Steph is right.
Vive la France!!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3997885.stm

Here is the real story.
Ivorian troups shot at the crowd to protect french troup retreat during a demonstration against the french.

I have several family members there. It is a tragedy.

and also the country that banned Muslim headscarfs in schools.

To be fair to the French on this score, I think they are doing the wrong action for honourable reasons.

France is even more secular than Britain which is far more secular than America in that the majority of Frenchmen passionately believe in the separation of Church and state. The French have therefore decided to ban all religious imagery in schools, not just Muslim headscarves but Christian crucifixes, Jewish kippas etc.
This act has come under criticism because a Catholic Christian can hide a crucifix under their shirt (necklace) but a Muslim obviously cannot hide a headscarf. This is what I believe to be the real issue.

I understand a lot about French politics and yes, a lot of it stinks, but observations that France is growing increasingly right wing are totally unfounded as shown by the results of this spring's regional elections in which Jacques Chirac's center-right party (similar views to De Gaulle) and the racist Front National were trounced by the socialists who won the election.

On this story, Psylos has pointed out with his BBC source that actually, there is far more to this that meets the eye and allegations that the French actually shot first are untrue. The French are on the whole, acting very honourably in both the Ivory Coast and the Congo; (where there is a UN presence to keep peace in) the most war-torn country since WWII and surprisingly there are more French than British and Americans.

Have a go at French politics but please, only if it is justified.

the french are *expletive*

search "french military victories" on google and click im feeling lucky

napoleon is a good one.

I for one dislike the french and how they act towards us. They point fingers. Nows its our turn *points finger at french*. Hmmm....I feel the same as I did before. I wonder why people do it all the time. The french at one pt were a world power for those of you who didn't know. It was way way back though in the colonial america times.

I for one dislike the french and how they act towards us. They point fingers. Nows its our turn *points finger at french*. Hmmm....I feel the same as I did before. I wonder why people do it all the time. The french at one pt were a world power for those of you who didn't know. It was way way back though in the colonial america times.

You are nothing but an idiot, I hope you're not British.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3997885.stm

Here is the real story.
Ivorian troups shot at the crowd to protect french troup retreat during a demonstration against the french.

I have several family members there. It is a tragedy.

Of course most of the hard right will either

1) Disbelieve or ignore this while maintaining a tenuous grasp on the notion that the French troops shot the crowd and are thus hypocrites who should shut their goddamned pie hole about Iraq.

and/or

2) Laugh and call the French that tired old Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey crap because their retreat was being covered by the Ivorian troops. Hey, I'd like to hear someone who would honestly believe a mayor of any major metropolitan city would rather throw away the lives of its inhabitants in a brutal drag-down fight instead of surrendering to keep the city's infrastructure and its citizenry intact.

It shouldn't be a surprise, the French have a history of savagery and hypocrisy. You think the cutting off heads in Iraq is new? Who do you think invented the guillotine? Check out some of the former colonies of France, i.e., Vietnam; they cut off plenty of heads there, seen enough sick and barbaric pictures of French colonists smiling among a bunch of Vietnamese farmers heads in a line. Algeria was also a place of torture for the French. The frogs (French) will abuse power anytime they can, and if anyone else does then they have great disdain for them. Their envy and jealousy of the U.S. has always been evident through their history of hypocrisy.

It shouldn't be a surprise, the French have a history of savagery and hypocrisy. You think the cutting off heads in Iraq is new? Who do you think invented the guillotine? Check out some of the former colonies of France, i.e., Vietnam; they cut off plenty of heads there, seen enough sick and barbaric pictures of French colonists smiling among a bunch of Vietnamese farmers heads in a line. Algeria was also a place of torture for the French. The frogs (French) will abuse power anytime they can, and if anyone else does then they have great disdain for them. Their envy and jealousy of the U.S. has always been evident through their history of hypocrisy.

Another idiot.

There is something that needs to be pointed out.Most Europeans(minus the French though I know lots of French who hate the French) hate the snotty French and stupid Americans.They are of the same ilk.This is generalising of course but you get the drift.

*snip*
Blablabla..drivel...blabla...and Canada is south of the equator.

there was already a thread about it, and noone posted anymore after I flamed all those who pretended to know anything but had no clue. I'm too bored to do this here again, so I suggest you go search for that thread and read it. it is called something like "french troops massacre poor innocents"

there was already a thread about it, and noone posted anymore after I flamed all those who pretended to know anything but had no clue. I'm too bored to do this here again, so I suggest you go search for that thread and read it. it is called something like "french troops massacre poor innocents"
A link to the thread in question would be better. If you want us to read your flame that is.

It shouldn't be a surprise, the French have a history of savagery and hypocrisy. You think the cutting off heads in Iraq is new? Who do you think invented the guillotine? Check out some of the former colonies of France, i.e., Vietnam; they cut off plenty of heads there, seen enough sick and barbaric pictures of French colonists smiling among a bunch of Vietnamese farmers heads in a line. Algeria was also a place of torture for the French. The frogs (French) will abuse power anytime they can, and if anyone else does then they have great disdain for them. Their envy and jealousy of the U.S. has always been evident through their history of hypocrisy.

someone called "american fascist state" shoud shut the fuck up and go hang himself. please! :D

Of course most of the hard right will either

1) Disbelieve or ignore this while maintaining a tenuous grasp on the notion that the French troops shot the crowd and are thus hypocrites who should shut their goddamned pie hole about Iraq.

and/or

2) Laugh and call the French that tired old Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey crap because their retreat was being covered by the Ivorian troops. Hey, I'd like to hear someone who would honestly believe a mayor of any major metropolitan city would rather throw away the lives of its inhabitants in a brutal drag-down fight instead of surrendering to keep the city's infrastructure and its citizenry intact.Unsurprisingly, you were right, seeing the posts after yours, although it looks like you underestimated them. Not only did they ignore the real story, but they went on and invented further bullshit.

You have the right to bash the french government, but please please use your brain while doing it. I hate the bastards myself. Chirac should be in jail, he is corrupt and the nuclear tests in the pacific were the act of uncaring assholes. But all this talk about the muslim head scarf and this article about someone who can't read french and tries to understand the news when they are available in english on the BBC just makes you look stupid.

Thanks for the attention.

Unsurprisingly, you were right, seeing the posts after yours, although it looks like you underestimated them. Not only did they ignore the real story, but they went on and invented further bullshit.

You have the right to bash the french government, but please please use your brain while doing it. I hate the bastards myself. Chirac should be in jail, he is corrupt and the nuclear tests in the pacific were the act of uncaring assholes. But all this talk about the muslim head scarf and this article about someone who can't read french and tries to understand the news when they are available in english on the BBC just makes you look stupid.

Thanks for the attention.

Read my post earlier. That shows that not everyone is uneducated and anti-French.

To be fair to the French on this score, I think they are doing the wrong action for honourable reasons.

France is even more secular than Britain which is far more secular than America in that the majority of Frenchmen passionately believe in the separation of Church and state. The French have therefore decided to ban all religious imagery in schools, not just Muslim headscarves but Christian crucifixes, Jewish kippas etc.
This act has come under criticism because a Catholic Christian can hide a crucifix under their shirt (necklace) but a Muslim obviously cannot hide a headscarf. This is what I believe to be the real issue.

I understand a lot about French politics and yes, a lot of it stinks, but observations that France is growing increasingly right wing are totally unfounded as shown by the results of this spring's regional elections in which Jacques Chirac's center-right party (similar views to De Gaulle) and the racist Front National were trounced by the socialists who won the election.

On this story, Psylos has pointed out with his BBC source that actually, there is far more to this that meets the eye and allegations that the French actually shot first are untrue. The French are on the whole, acting very honourably in both the Ivory Coast and the Congo; (where there is a UN presence to keep peace in) the most war-torn country since WWII and surprisingly there are more French than British and Americans.

Have a go at French politics but please, only if it is justified.

The French Army is in Ivory Coast 1- at the request of the current government (now crying hoarse), 2- with the mandate of the UN and 3- as a peacekeeping force.
If it appears that soldiers really shot a disarmed crowd without absolute necessity, I hope this action will be duly punished.

Read my post earlier. That shows that not everyone is uneducated and anti-French.
Thank you. It is refreshing to read something informed about France. I hope there can be a real debate about Ivory Coast one day, but I'm not sure it is possible here. This issue is very close to me because I should be in Ivory Coast right now to visit some family members, but all flights have been cancelled.

I tried to translate des tirs de sommation and I got "shooting of sommation". The last word didn't translate.

I tried to translate des tirs de sommation and I got "shooting of sommation". The last word didn't translate.I don't know how to translate literally either, but it means that they shot in the air to say that the crow should not go further.

I don't know how to translate literally either, but it means that they shot in the void to say that the crow should not go further.
Shooting in the void etc...sounds like `firing warning shots´ if you ask me.

Shooting in the void etc...sounds like `firing warning shots´ if you ask me.
That's it, exactly. Thank you.

Let the french keep sucking islamofascist dick, I say.

/lives in france, has a french passport, was born in france, but hates the french, doesn't understand why any american, in his right mind, would actually envy or praise our "favor the lazy parasites" politics we conveniently dubbed "social blanket", and wishes people would stop defending shit-rack (on the funny side, "chie-raque" in french means "shits-barfs" in english :) Exactly what one wants to do whenever the crook, the french nixon, the thief and the liar that our resident is, whenever that scum of humanity speaks)
//Don't get me started about his wife. Damn, feels, tastes, and sounds just like Ceaucescu's regime!

That's so cute.

You people actually bought the bullshit spewed by the U.N. and France.

Well, this is how the cookie crumbles.

They're a bunch of seething fucking hypocrites.

That's so cute.

You people actually bought the bullshit spewed by the U.N. and France.

Well, this is how the cookie crumbles.

They're a bunch of seething -->fucking<--- hypocrites.

Why are people who use the F-word not summarily banned at first offense?

Does anyone else find the nittersweet irony in reading the hysteric anti-French, "they're are bunch of mindless, violent thugs" msgs that are posted by the same ppl who have been vehemently defending the US GI for shooting an unarmed man in a mosque? (It was self-defence - he might have had a weapon!)
What's particularly ironic, is that they can't see the hypocrisy of their defence of one (shooting an unarmed man) and their villification of the other (shooting at several thousand angry protesters).
Amazing.

Thank goodness I have broadband - the movie clip is 100MB!!

Why are people who use the F-word not summarily banned at first offense?
Cause soon there wouldn't be anyone left to post.

Rock on France!

At least they are trying to solve problems, instead of starting them! :cool:
By shooting unarmed civiliians? :eek: WTF???

Let the french keep sucking islamofascist dick, I say.

/lives in france, has a french passport, was born in france, but hates the french, doesn't understand why any american, in his right mind, would actually envy or praise our "favor the lazy parasites" politics we conveniently dubbed "social blanket", and wishes people would stop defending shit-rack (on the funny side, "chie-raque" in french means "shits-barfs" in english :) Exactly what one wants to do whenever the crook, the french nixon, the thief and the liar that our resident is, whenever that scum of humanity speaks)
//Don't get me started about his wife. Damn, feels, tastes, and sounds just like Ceaucescu's regime!Your post has no substance and you don't know what you are talking about. You are criticizing french social politics and Chirac at the same time. If you live in France, I'm Napoleon.

I'm Napoleon.
No. I am. Even my doctor adresses me as such. Your a thief.

By shooting unarmed civiliians? :eek: WTF???
Read the news more closely please. The link provided by the original poster is total crap. It is the comment of some guy who doesn't speack french and who found some news in the summary of an article published in LeMonde.fr. this article is an extract of an article aimed at advertising people into registrating so they can read the full story.

A big crowd of even unarmed civilians can be life-threatening too if they get too close. Imagine yourself facing 200 12-year old children.

A big crowd of even unarmed civilians can be life-threatening too if they get too close. Imagine yourself facing 200 12-year old children.
But shooting one armed terrorists who might kill you or your coworkers is an outrage, right.

A big crowd of even unarmed civilians can be life-threatening too if they get too close. Imagine yourself facing 200 12-year old children.
But they didn't shoot. The ivorian forces did.
What the french troups did was retreat in front of an angry crowd. They did fire some warning shot and that's all.
Did anybody read the news in full?

Wow, French army rifles actually being fired? Let me guess, the folks at Ivory Coast were unarmed.

In all seriousness, it's refreshing to see the French exposed for the cowardly hypocrites they are.
Hell yeah!

France is even more secular than Britain which is far more secular than America in that the majority of Frenchmen passionately believe in the separation of Church and state. The French have therefore decided to ban all religious imagery in schools, not just Muslim headscarves but Christian crucifixes, Jewish kippas etc.
This act has come under criticism because a Catholic Christian can hide a crucifix under their shirt (necklace) but a Muslim obviously cannot hide a headscarf. This is what I believe to be the real issue.

I disagree. The real issue is that France is infringing upon the free, peaceful exercise of religion. Whether their motives are honorable or not, the result is the same: a violation of basic human rights.

When did the UK; with an esablished church, blasphemy laws, an official religion and churches supported by the government, become more secular than the US?

But they didn't shoot. The ivorian forces did.
What the french troups did was retreat in front of an angry crowd. They did fire some warning shot and that's all.
Did anybody read the news in full?

Of course not, that might force them to comprehend that the world isn't exactly how they want it to be.

1) The french were there to protect the evacuation of french citizens, who have been pointed at as the ennemies of the country by the governmental medias controlled by the president Laurent Gbagbo. Some women were raped, many houses burnt. thousands of french citizens are leaving the country, and they need the protection of the army in their transit to the airport.

2) the crowd came there to protest about the french presence in the town

3) there, we have 2 versions:
- the french were shot at, and answered by shooting in the crowd while retreating
- the french and ivorian troops were shot at, and the ivorian forces that were there shot back,protecting the french retreat (there was nothing to do there, and it is not an army's task to disperse a crowd, the best thing to do was to leave the place with the french civilians)

Until now, no one can really say and be sure that the french army did that. This rumor have only spread on the internet, serious newspapers prefered talking about "accusations" on the french army. Sadly, many people believe all the crap they can read.

Of course not, that might force them to comprehend that the world isn't exactly how they want it to be.

Exactly.

When did the UK; with an esablished church, blasphemy laws, an official religion and churches supported by the government, become more secular than the US?

You make a good point in that technically, Britain is less secular than the US. Yes, there is a national church etc. as you have said.

But...

Unlike the USA, the majority of people are not influenced politically by any religious inclinations. In the USA, as far as I understand, issues like abortion, gay rights, education in schools and other issues are much more partisan issues that divide the whole country.

If you compare the debate in the United States over these issues compared to the biggest debate religious debate in this country i.e. the ordination of gay bishops, there is by no means such partisanship and the debate is dwarfed in comparison.

Your post has no substance and you don't know what you are talking about. You are criticizing french social politics and Chirac at the same time. If you live in France, I'm Napoleon.
:rolleyes: C'est ça, ouais... dis-moi où j'habite, pauvre tache.
Je suis né à Nice, je vis à Nice, et je peux te dire que je connais la France peut-être un tout petit peu mieux que toi... Va t'acheter un cerveau et on en reparle, OK?!

/complètement mort de rire!
//won't even translate to prove my point, you nimrod.
///Napoleon = Corsican SS.
////France still sucks tremendous ass! :)

I disagree. The real issue is that France is infringing upon the free, peaceful exercise of religion. Whether their motives are honorable or not, the result is the same: a violation of basic human rights.

That's my issue with the law too- it is a HEAVY restriction on both the freedom of expression and freedom of religion, two very basic human rights. I argued this on another message board (the MuchMusic forum, dominated mostly by teens) and I got several people who told me France was right as it gets rid of the "domineering" symbols. It saddens me to think that not only were they apathetic to the destruction of basic human rights but also supporting it- that sets too dangerous a precedent for this world.

Also, as an aside to the Google search: there is a GLARING error in the French military recount as Charlemagne, who is described as French on the Site, was actually a fairly accomplished military leader, who increased the size of the Frankish Empire (France) to include Italy, Western Germany and Bavaria, being victorious over the Avars, a nation the Byzantines could not defeat. So, while I agree that France lost A LOT of battles (which the Site hilariously backs up), it's incorrect to say they never indeed won any battles.

:rolleyes: C'est ça, ouais... dis-moi où j'habite, pauvre tache.
Je suis né à Nice, je vis à Nice, et je peux te dire que je connais la France peut-être un tout petit peu mieux que toi... Va t'acheter un cerveau et on en reparle, OK?!

/complètement mort de rire!
//won't even translate to prove my point, you nimrod.
///Napoleon = Corsican SS.
////France still sucks tremendous ass! :)
Cool t'habite en France et t'y comprend rien à la politique. Et tu pue la vieille pute défraichie de ta grand-mère en string de guerre.

That's my issue with the law too- it is a HEAVY restriction on both the freedom of expression and freedom of religion, two very basic human rights. I argued this on another message board (the MuchMusic forum, dominated mostly by teens) and I got several people who told me France was right as it gets rid of the "domineering" symbols. It saddens me to think that not only were they apathetic to the destruction of basic human rights but also supporting it- that sets too dangerous a precedent for this world.

Also, as an aside to the Google search: there is a GLARING error in the French military recount as Charlemagne, who is described as French on the Site, was actually a fairly accomplished military leader, who increased the size of the Frankish Empire (France) to include Italy, Western Germany and Bavaria, being victorious over the Avars, a nation the Byzantines could not defeat. So, while I agree that France lost A LOT of battles (which the Site hilariously backs up), it's incorrect to say they never indeed won any battles.So, why don't you protest about uniforms in other countries? Because they're not France?

Cool t'habite en France et t'y comprend rien à la politique. Et tu pue la vieille pute défraichie de ta grand-mère en string de guerre.
Trop fort, les vieilles blagues carambar! Je savais qu'on pouvait être aussi intelligent qu'une huître et avoir l'esprit aussi profond qu'une flaque de pisse, mais tu continues à repousser les limites de la bêtise humaine!

Tu sais quoi, arrête d'acheter "le fouteur de merde" et "pif gadget" et peut-être qu'un jour, tu pourras discuter avec les grandes personnes... :)

/Ta mère en slip bleu dans la quatrième dimension :rolleyes:
//I understand that some people have the need to prove a point whenever they reach the age of 17... But boy, are you going to hang your head in shame when you think back about this in a few years! :D

So, why don't you protest about uniforms in other countries? Because they're not France?

Actually, I do. I've never ever supported school uniforms no matter what the circumstances, or dress codes as a whole (moreso concerning high school students). I would think that by the time people hit high school most of them would be able to suppress their "animal instincts" so to speak.

Thew French forces in Ivory Coast are peace-keepers? Lets examine this. The peace was broken by the Ivorian government when it launched an offensive. Since, the "peace-keepers" have fought exclusively against the rebels, the ones who were attacked. They have been supported by the Ivorian government and it's forces. Peace-keepers?! Fucking peace-keepers? They aren't working toward peace. They are fighting a war along side the aggressors in this instance. They have chosen thier side and are trying to consolidate the power of thier puppet. Like they have been for decades in thier "former" colonies.

Just compare the victims of all french military actions in the last 10 years with the victims of the US-raid over Falludja and then go on with this thread..

And the same country that shot down a irani airplane some years ago because they thought they were going to attack a US-ship should be very quiet critizysing soldiers that shoot in the air to defend themselves.

French, Germany and the biggest part of nations were against the attack on Irak because they thought it was a failure and the theory of WMD was a lie - and it was a lie! Even the people of Spain were against the war in the biggest part - only the right wing government wanted to be a true "friend" of Bush and sent spanish troops to Irak. The good thing in a democracy is that the people can tell the government from time to time they didn´t like their behaviour. Elections - change of governemt - spanish troops back at home, where they belong!

The biggest part of Europe knew that the difficult thing was not to win the war against Irak BUT to win the peace afterwards - and US is loosing the peace.

Actually, I do. I've never ever supported school uniforms no matter what the circumstances, or dress codes as a whole (moreso concerning high school students). I would think that by the time people hit high school most of them would be able to suppress their "animal instincts" so to speak.

What's the problem? I had to wear one and I couldn't care less.

(And if they can suppress their instincts, why did people like to get flesh tunnels and poser punk hair? ;))

Trop fort, les vieilles blagues carambar! Je savais qu'on pouvait être aussi intelligent qu'une huître et avoir l'esprit aussi profond qu'une flaque de pisse, mais tu continues à repousser les limites de la bêtise humaine!

Tu sais quoi, arrête d'acheter "le fouteur de merde" et "pif gadget" et peut-être qu'un jour, tu pourras discuter avec les grandes personnes... :)

/Ta mère en slip bleu dans la quatrième dimension :rolleyes:
//I understand that some people have the need to prove a point whenever they reach the age of 17... But boy, are you going to hang your head in shame when you think back about this in a few years! :D

it is time to grow up a little don't you think? You both look like twelve years old idiots, but you try to speak politics.

Just compare the victims of all french military actions in the last 10 years with the victims of the US-raid over Falludja and then go on with this thread..

And the same country that shot down a irani airplane some years ago because they thought they were going to attack a US-ship should be very quiet critizysing soldiers that shoot in the air to defend themselves.

French, Germany and the biggest part of nations were against the attack on Irak because they thought it was a failure and the theory of WMD was a lie - and it was a lie! Even the people of Spain were against the war in the biggest part - only the right wing government wanted to be a true "friend" of Bush and sent spanish troops to Irak. The good thing in a democracy is that the people can tell the government from time to time they didn´t like their behaviour. Elections - change of governemt - spanish troops back at home, where they belong!

The biggest part of Europe knew that the difficult thing was not to win the war against Irak BUT to win the peace afterwards - and US is loosing the peace.
Please, don't start with the Spanish election of fear and panic. I'll only offend and enlighten you.

As far as the French in Africa are concerned, they have sponsored more coups, more civil wars and been directly involved in the deaths of millions. The lacked the fortitude to get thier hands dirty but they were, to varying degrees, responsible. Now, they have taken matters, partially into thier hands and are applauded, disgusting.

Thew French forces in Ivory Coast are peace-keepers? Lets examine this. The peace was broken by the Ivorian government when it launched an offensive. Since, the "peace-keepers" have fought exclusively against the rebels, the ones who were attacked. They have been supported by the Ivorian government and it's forces. Peace-keepers?! Fucking peace-keepers? They aren't working toward peace. They are fighting a war along side the aggressors in this instance. They have chosen thier side and are trying to consolidate the power of thier puppet. Like they have been for decades in thier "former" colonies.


please inform yourself. The peace keepers did not fought against the rebels, and are having a terrible time with the government that DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM. I don't know for you, but I think bombing them is not supporting them. So much for a puppet again! Do you know that Gbagbo complains constantly about '"french occupation", and his medias say the same thing? And the results is "hunts for whites" in government controlled areas!! The ambassador of Cote d'Ivoire said this conflict is going to be "a new vietnam for france"! France destroyed the governmental aviation after being attacked by it! An extremist has just be named as the new chief of armies!!

Come on, which planet do you live on??!?

Please, don't start with the Spanish election of fear and panic. I'll only offend and enlighten you.

As far as the French in Africa are concerned, they have sponsored more coups, more civil wars and been directly involved in the deaths of millions. The lacked the fortitude to get thier hands dirty but they were, to varying degrees, responsible. Now, they have taken matters, partially into thier hands and are applauded, disgusting.

give exemples to what you say please. And when someone does something good, I think it should be applauded - at least, better have it applauded than having uninformed guys like you complain about it. It doesn't excuse the atrocities made in Algeria, but it is still a good action if you take it and only it.

The UN is actually helping the French.

That's why I don't like either France or the UN.

What planet is your cable plugged into?

That's so cute.

You people actually bought the bullshit spewed by the U.N. and France.

Well, this is how the cookie crumbles.

They're a bunch of seething fucking hypocrites.
it's funny, I remember seeing you in another thread and PMing you that I answered in the end and proved wrong all the uninformed guys like you. You never replyed, and the thread vanished. Now I see you back here. How funny :rolleyes:

hm, and by the way, the UN bullshit is supported by fact. Why would we buy your self-made bullshit made out of nothing ?

What planet is your cable plugged into?
in fact, the french army is under the orders of the UN. Even the african countries of the region supports the peace-keeping mission.

please inform yourself. The peace keepers did not fought against the rebels, and are having a terrible time with the government that DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM. I don't know for you, but I think bombing them is not supporting them. So much for a puppet again! Do you know that Gbagbo complains constantly about '"french occupation", and his medias say the same thing? And the results is "hunts for whites" in government controlled areas!! The ambassador of Cote d'Ivoire said this conflict is going to be "a new vietnam for france"! France destroyed the governmental aviation after being attacked by it! An extremist has just be named as the new chief of armies!!

Come on, which planet do you live on??!?
Thier rhetoric differs, but thier actions are united, they're operations are seemingly cooerdinated. The farther into the rebel held territories the French go the farther the Ivorians follow them, helping where they can. If you can't see, the buffer between the two sides has expanded in a very lop-sided manner. Stop listening to the politicians, anyones, and think for a second.

With regards to the French in other conflicts in west Africa, look for the information. It is well documented. Try CAR, Morroco, Algeria, Senegal, I could go on but that should be enough rerading for a while.

in fact, the french army is under the orders of the UN. Even the african countries of the region supports the peace-keeping mission.

I guess that makes sense to you French-fries.

Thier rhetoric differs, but thier actions are united, they're operations are seemingly cooerdinated. The farther into the rebel held territories the French go the farther the Ivorians follow them, helping where they can. If you can't see, the buffer between the two sides has expanded in a very lop-sided manner. Stop listening to the politicians, anyones, and think for a second.

With regards to the French in other conflicts in west Africa, look for the information. It is well documented. Try CAR, Morroco, Algeria, Senegal, I could go on but that should be enough rerading for a while.

most were not coups d'etats but indepence revolutions.

Again, the french proposed a UN resolution against the buying of weapons by Gbagbo that was adopted very recently.

Even our own reporters recognize the fact that Ivorians were deliberately shot at, and they're don't even like gbagbo. link here, it's in french (http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=255032)

The same people who defend chirac's position are the ones who will then rant about how evil israel is for "injustly occupying" land they won in defensive wars.

Face it people, france's colonial empire is NOT something you should defend. It is crumbling and dying now, and maybe now, the Ivory Coast will have a shot at using their own resources by themselves, instead of foreign contractors. It is well-known here that quite a few politicians have "african networks" for just about everything : weapons, resources, infrastructures...

Please. Stop being ignorant asshats. I am ashamed enough of my countrymen, don't tarnish the image of the US by thinking you're holding the moral high ground.

It's colonialism, period!

Please, don't start with the Spanish election of fear and panic. I'll only offend and enlighten you.

As far as the French in Africa are concerned, they have sponsored more coups, more civil wars and been directly involved in the deaths of millions. The lacked the fortitude to get thier hands dirty but they were, to varying degrees, responsible. Now, they have taken matters, partially into thier hands and are applauded, disgusting.


Another lie in the US media.

The biggest part of the spanish people were AGAINST the war in Irak. Aznar and his government decided to go to war following the lies of the US.

This is not the way democracay is supposed to work.

On the other side the spanish government was liying before the elections saying the attack had been made by the ETA - not by muslim terrorists.

It was not the fear that moved the spanish people to vote the oposition. It was the arrogance of the government and their lies that caused a change in the government.

Perhaps Bush is allowed to lie as often as he wants - but Aznar was not Bush. And Spain is not the USA.

Spain has big problems with terrorists threads since decades and a lot of people died - but this has not caused fear the way that the spanish army starts throwing bombs over the Basque territory.

I do not defend colonialism - the biggest part of problems in the world are caused by colonialism. France, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands, Great Britain, the Sovietunion caused a lot of killings and suffer.

But the big colonialist state of our days is the USA!

The Spanish said they wanted to bring christianism - they wanted gold...
The US says it wants to bring freedom and democracy - they want oil... and more...

I think it's okay if US Marines and French soldiers gun down unarmed terrorists.
After all it's just finishing a job. Can't see anything wrong with this, the SS did that too in WWII.

What's the problem? I had to wear one and I couldn't care less.

(And if they can suppress their instincts, why did people like to get flesh tunnels and poser punk hair? ;))

Well, I didn't mean that some people can't look nice if they want to- I believe people can go after any kind of look that they want. I just don't buy the notion that because a girl wears a midriff that all the boys will jump her and want to have sex with her.

As for uniforms: I'm against the idea that someone is telling me what to wear. I'm the kind of guy that doesn't like to be told what to do in general, although if there is some logic I will follow along (e.g. do not murder).

Right now the French are stopping a civil war, so they look good. Especially compared to the Americans who have started a war.
Ok I have had it ...The Americans did not start this war....Islamofascists started this war...And regardless of what you all think there are Ilamic terrorist in Iraq...Always have been....Al Zarqawi has been there for years...The French started the uncivil war in the Ivory Coast by not leaving that nation in a decent state in the first place...

Rock on France!

At least they are trying to solve problems, instead of starting them! :cool:
argh, hypocrisy.

*shakes head*

Well if you're saying this thread was made to make people laugh you're both wrong and right. Americans will laugh, because that is what we do. And everyone else will be angry, because Americans make a big deal out of it. Its not something that was meant to be funny, it was meant to piss off the French and make Americans happy.
well, it's nice to see you can laugh at an army opening fire on an unarmed crowd.

what the fuck is wrong with you?

Congratulations, you too are a bigoted arsehole.
go fark a kangaroo

well, it's nice to see you can laugh at an army opening fire on an unarmed crowd.

what the fuck is wrong with you?
lol

Two sinners debating who has less sins. :headbang:

well, it's nice to see you can laugh at an army opening fire on an unarmed crowd.

what the fuck is wrong with you?

Ha like you don't laugh at the thought of a economic collapse in the US.

Even though that would only hurt the poor and powerless.

You are a hypocrite. Sir.

Thew French forces in Ivory Coast are peace-keepers? Lets examine this. The peace was broken by the Ivorian government when it launched an offensive. Since, the "peace-keepers" have fought exclusively against the rebels, the ones who were attacked. They have been supported by the Ivorian government and it's forces. Peace-keepers?! Fucking peace-keepers? They aren't working toward peace. They are fighting a war along side the aggressors in this instance. They have chosen thier side and are trying to consolidate the power of thier puppet. Like they have been for decades in thier "former" colonies.

theeheee :) call me an asshole, but if one side is exterminated there is peace, right?

go fark a kangaroo

Get bent, dipshit.


(I mean that with the utmost in respect. Fucknut.)

I dont have patience for comments like that.

Y alll don t now what is happening in Ivory coast y all should be there to know what is it .