NationStates Jolt Archive

My devout Christian upbringing (Lutheran schooling K-6) turned me into a self-conscious, ashamed person. I was raised to think that sex and drinking were wrong, that swear words made rock music bad for me. The subsequent coming of age that caused me to be interested in all three, filled me with self-doubt and shame. I have slowly overcame the programming I endured during my formative years and learned to accept things that did not display "good christian values" and consider myself a much better person for it.

I cringed when I heard my little brother and sister sing "My God is and Awesome God" and "God is my Best Friend" at vacation bible school, and I will never subject my children to the type of brainwashing that I went through when I was younger.

My freedom from religion began with one revelation:
"This is fucking stupid."

My freedom from religion began with one revelation:
"This is fucking stupid."

It's ironic, but my own self-doubt about my religion lead to my awakening. About the age of 13 I realized that there were a great deal of people who were better than me who would go to hell while I would be in heaven. I couldn't believe in a God who could justify that.

I was sent to a Catholic middle school, 6th to 8th grade. Got me off the fence quicker than quick (agnostic to atheist).

Religion would be a great thing if only it chose to be inclusive and comforting. Instead, it often teaches exclusion and hate.

Read Joseph Campbell people, he knows a lot more about the bible then any priest in the world.

Read Joseph Campbell people, he knows a lot more about the bible then any priest in the world.

..and follow your bliss.

Religion would be a great thing if only it chose to be inclusive and comforting. Instead, it often teaches exclusion and hate.

There were a few great religious leaders that rose above that. But most Christians are raised to be so self-conscious that they become angered by someone who displays behavior that they themselves are ashamed of.

It's ironic, but my own self-doubt about my religion lead to my awakening. About the age of 13 I realized that there were a great deal of people who were better than me who would go to hell while I would be in heaven. I couldn't believe in a God who could justify that.

If hell is a place of eternal suffering and heaven is a place full of christians, I honesly don´t know wich one is worse.

Religion would be a great thing if only it chose to be inclusive and comforting. Instead, it often teaches exclusion and hate.
Reminds me of the shorties watching shorties episode

“I went to a catholic school for 12 years”

“Then why aren’t you catholic”

“um because I went to a catholic school for 12 years”


For about 50 percent of people (me included) the biggest driving away factor was the bs they spoon fed us for years

Reminds me of the shorties watching shorties episode

“I went to a catholic school for 12 years”

“Then why aren’t you catholic”

“um because I went to a catholic school for 12 years”


For about 50 percent of people (me included) the biggest driving away factor was the bs they spoon fed us for years
I was just thinking of that one. :p

It's true...being forcefed that crap either completely turns you off of religion, or you get completely brainwashed into it.

I was just thinking of that one. :p

It's true...being forcefed that crap either completely turns you off of religion, or you get completely brainwashed into it.
Yup I just am too logical ... my mind rejected it

there were a great deal of people who were better than me who would go to hell while I would be in heaven. I couldn't believe in a God who could justify that.

Gandhi's going to hell because he didn't accept JAY-SUS into his life!

It was pretty easy for me as my parents are atheists in all but name and so any indoctrination was minimized. My grandmother would make me go to church until I was about twelve, but then I managed to get out of it, especially seeing as my parents never go.

It was funny how half the people in my catholic high school's philosophy class were atheists.

If you miss Church on a Sunday, and then get knocked down by a bus on the following Monday, you'll go straight to Hell.

If you miss Church on a Sunday, and then get knocked down by a bus on the following Monday, you'll go straight to Hell.

I bet a lot of Christians wouldn't care, just as long as the bus driver went to hell, too.

(I don't really think that's true, I guess. It just sounded good, and I figured it would be well received in this company)

If hell is a place of eternal suffering and heaven is a place full of christians, I honesly don´t know wich one is worse.Amen to that.

My thought is this: If the things I want to do are a sin, would they be allowed in heaven? I sincerely doubt it.

If you miss Church on a Sunday, and then get knocked down by a bus on the following Monday, you'll go straight to Hell.
Not if you ask for forgiveness if the buss is barreling down on you.

You know I wonder if I could make a tape of me asking for forgiveness and if that would count (incase the end would come to quickly for a death bead confessional)

I bet a lot of Christians wouldn't care, just as long as the bus driver went to hell, too.

(I don't really think that's true, I guess. It just sounded good, and I figured it would be well received in this company)

I actually think most of this thread is just as bad the other thread, but I thought it was a good example of the bs you get fed at school, like I was.

You know what I can't stand? It's the Christian approach to homosexuality, which at best is a sort of disgusted condescension (Just live a chaste life and do not sin...and try to turn straight), and at worst the most vile hatred to ever spew from someone who claims to follow Jesus' teachings.

You know what I can't stand? It's the Christian approach to homosexuality, which at best is a sort of disgusted condescension (Just live a chaste life and do not sin...and try to turn straight), and at worst the most vile hatred to ever spew from someone who claims to follow Jesus' teachings.

There you go again, generalising. Not all Christians preach that (most don't), and the Bible is open to interpretation on the matter.

If hell is a place of eternal suffering and heaven is a place full of christians, I honesly don´t know wich one is worse.

Anyone here read "Letters From the Earth", by Mark Twain? I'll sumarize it for those who haven't: Lucifer (yeah aka satan) is banished to the Earth for shooting off his mouth about God. While there, he sytematically insults God's way of taking credit for all the good things. (to the poor, etc.) and humans foolishness in believing that God is kind. He sends thes scathing letters back to his friends, the Archangels Gabriel and Michael. Very funny. More so if you aren't a Christian. It is one of the things that has begun to erode my once strong Christian beliefs. (now they are still there, but pretty weak.)

Here's what one of the major tenets of a nice alternative to mainstream Christianity, the Unitarian Church, is in regards to religious education (and education in general) (trying to turn this thread into something a bit more positive and productive)

"The Great End in Religious Instruction"

The great end in religious instruction is not to stamp our minds upon the young, but to stir up their own. Not to make them see with our eyes, but to look inquiringly and steadily with their own.

Not to give them a definite amount of knowledge, but to inspire a fervant love of truth. Not to form an outward regularity, but to touch inward springs.

Not to bind them by ineradicable prejudices to our particular sect or peculiar notions, but to prepare them for impartial, conscientious judging of whatever subjects may be offered to their decision.

Not to burden the memory, but to quicken and strengthen the power of thought. Not to impose religion upon them in the form of arbitrary rules, but to awaken the conscience, the moral discernment.

In a word, the great end is to awaken the soul, to excite and cherish spiritual life.

William Ellery Channing

Why, oh why, do people seem to think that Religion == Christianity?

Let me say this one last time before I have to add yet another thing to my sig: I am deeply religious, more so than most people, but I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Christian.

If you're gonna bash "religion", then do so. Bash them all.

Otherwise, rename the thread "Start bashing Christianity".

There you go again, generalising. Not all Christians preach that (most don't), and the Bible is open to interpretation on the matter.
This is a thread for generalizations...;)

In any case, I said at best, and at worst. I have yet to see any Christian group outright support homosexuality.

You know what I can't stand? It's the Christian approach to homosexuality, which at best is a sort of disgusted condescension (Just live a chaste life and do not sin...and try to turn straight), and at worst the most vile hatred to ever spew from someone who claims to follow Jesus' teachings.

What?! You don't think that homosexuals are disgusting human beings.

I find it amusing that not only do they condemn them to hell, but they won't even allow them to enjoy themselves while they are here.

You know what I can't stand? It's the Christian approach to homosexuality, which at best is a sort of disgusted condescension (Just live a chaste life and do not sin...and try to turn straight), and at worst the most vile hatred to ever spew from someone who claims to follow Jesus' teachings.

Whenever extreme Christians who "know the Bible" bring up the Bible in that regard. Ask them this: O yeah I know that chapte,r isn't it the one which says that you can't eat any shellfish or wear clothes of more than one fabric (polyesters) ? If they protest, ask them why they literally translate part of the Bible, but not the whole thing. Even funnier is if someone rich says it. Then on top of that you can use this Biblical quote. "It is easier for a camel (actually an elephant, but they translated it wrong) to fit through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to gewt into heaven." Then say, "so if you interpret the Bible right, you are going to hell! haha.

This is a thread for generalizations...;)

In any case, I said at best, and at worst. I have yet to see any Christian group outright support homosexuality.

Apart from half the Anglican Church? (I think you mean "accept" rather than "support")

Here's what one of the major tenets of a nice alternative to mainstream Christianity, the Unitarian Church, is in regards to religious education (and education in general) (trying to turn this thread into something a bit more positive and productive)

"The Great End in Religious Instruction"

The great end in religious instruction is not to stamp our minds upon the young, but to stir up their own. Not to make them see with our eyes, but to look inquiringly and steadily with their own.

Not to give them a definite amount of knowledge, but to inspire a fervant love of truth. Not to form an outward regularity, but to touch inward springs.

Not to bind them by ineradicable prejudices to our particular sect or peculiar notions, but to prepare them for impartial, conscientious judging of whatever subjects may be offered to their decision.

Not to burden the memory, but to quicken and strengthen the power of thought. Not to impose religion upon them in the form of arbitrary rules, but to awaken the conscience, the moral discernment.

In a word, the great end is to awaken the soul, to excite and cherish spiritual life.

William Ellery Channing

Those would be wonderful sentiments, if I didn't suspect that the guidance to this awakening wouldn't be so biased.

A good step in the right direction though.

Why, oh why, do people seem to think that Religion == Christianity?

Let me say this one last time before I have to add yet another thing to my sig: I am deeply religious, more so than most people, but I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Christian.

If you're gonna bash "religion", then do so. Bash them all.

Otherwise, rename the thread "Start bashing Christianity".

Most major religions follow along the same lines as christianity. They all have the same fundamental qualities.

Amazing how "religion" seems to be defined as Christianity in these forums. Anyhoo, from a secular perspective, religion is an excellent tool for maintaining society and keeping it livable, efficient, and orderly.

Originally Posted by Vittos Ordination
I was raised to think that sex and drinking were wrong, that swear words made rock music bad for me. The subsequent coming of age that caused me to be interested in all three, filled me with self-doubt and shame. I have slowly overcame the programming I endured during my formative years and learned to accept things that did not display "good christian values" and consider myself a much better person for it.
Personally, I happen to think that drinking is pointless and swearing is idiotic, but sex is fine so long as it’s a monogamous relationship. Anything else tends to destabilize society too much for my tastes. Admittedly, Christianity has some tenets that aren't particularly realistic, but no belief system (or claimed lack thereof) is perfect. Best thing is to choose a basic path and keep an open mind.

Originally Posted by Chodolo
It's true...being forcefed that crap either completely turns you off of religion, or you get completely brainwashed into it.
I suppose it all depends on what kind of upbringing/education you have. My experience has been that Catholicism is a choice, and I've never felt brainwashed.

Just wanted to get some of that out there before some well-meaning "Christian" (not my place to judge) starts flaming.

Apart from half the Anglican Church? (I think you mean "accept" rather than "support")

Yeah probably. it's funny, people accept only what they want to. we don't sacrifice stuff anymore, the bible says to do that. Bush certainly doesn't believe in my rich guy quote. Lat time I checked, people now eat shellfish. Wouldn't it be nice if God beamed down a new set of values every 200 years?

What?! You don't think that homosexuals are disgusting human beings.

I find it amusing that not only do they condemn them to hell, but they won't even allow them to enjoy themselves while they are here.

Uh, nobody is "condemned to hell" for anything other than not believing in Jesus. Bash that idea all you want (go ahead and complain that a "good" person who doesn't believe will get sent to hell) but at least make sure you've got it right. Remember that according to the Bible *everyone* (yes, including me) is imperfect and has sinned.

Uh, nobody is "condemned to hell" for anything other than not believing in Jesus. Bash that idea all you want (go ahead and complain that a "good" person who doesn't believe will get sent to hell) but at least make sure you've got it right. Remember that according to the Bible *everyone* (yes, including me) is imperfect and has sinned.

congrats on your first post. :D

Uh, nobody is "condemned to hell" for anything other than not believing in Jesus. Bash that idea all you want (go ahead and complain that a "good" person who doesn't believe will get sent to hell) but at least make sure you've got it right. Remember that according to the Bible *everyone* (yes, including me) is imperfect and has sinned.

Well thats good, then. At least homosexual christians will get in.

I'm pretty sure hell could use their decorative skills, however.

Why, oh why, do people seem to think that Religion == Christianity?

Let me say this one last time before I have to add yet another thing to my sig: I am deeply religious, more so than most people, but I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Christian.

If you're gonna bash "religion", then do so. Bash them all.

Otherwise, rename the thread "Start bashing Christianity".Give it time. Just because Christianity is the only one brought up so far, doesn't mean that others won't soon enough.

Besides, Christianity is one a lot of people have problems with, plus it's one of the largest; of course it's going to be the first one to get knocked.

are people not responding to my posts for a reason? Or is it just coincidence?

Whenever extreme Christians who "know the Bible" bring up the Bible in that regard. Ask them this: O yeah I know that chapte,r isn't it the one which says that you can't eat any shellfish or wear clothes of more than one fabric (polyesters) ? If they protest, ask them why they literally translate part of the Bible, but not the whole thing.Good one; I'll have to remember that one. :cool:

are people not responding to my posts for a reason? Or is it just coincidence?Feel better now? :)

Yeah probably. it's funny, people accept only what they want to. we don't sacrifice stuff anymore, the bible says to do that. Bush certainly doesn't believe in my rich guy quote. Lat time I checked, people now eat shellfish. Wouldn't it be nice if God beamed down a new set of values every 200 years?

There are no "new sets of values". Animals aren't sacrificed anymore because the purpose of that was to repent for your sins - Jesus was *the* sacrifice who rendered any future sacrifices unneccesary. As far as the "rich guy" quote - the point of that was simply to say that money doesn't get you to heaven, not that there is anything wrong with *having* money.

Most of the other rules (shellfish, etc.) applied only at that time.

*Bump*

Yeah probably. it's funny, people accept only what they want to. we don't sacrifice stuff anymore, the bible says to do that. Bush certainly doesn't believe in my rich guy quote. Lat time I checked, people now eat shellfish. Wouldn't it be nice if God beamed down a new set of values every 200 years?

If he exists he probably does. It's just that Christians seem to be the last ones to get the memos.

Uh, nobody is "condemned to hell" for anything other than not believing in Jesus.Historically speaking, Jesus did exist (whether or not he was the son of some diety or not... that remains to be determined). Does that count?

Historically speaking, Jesus did exist (whether or not he was the son of some diety or not... that remains to be determined). Does that count?

I hope so, if not I'm screwed.

There are no "new sets of values". Animals aren't sacrificed anymore because the purpose of that was to repent for your sins - Jesus was *the* sacrifice who rendered any future sacrifices unneccesary. As far as the "rich guy" quote - the point of that was simply to say that money doesn't get you to heaven, not that there is anything wrong with *having* money.

Most of the other rules (shellfish, etc.) applied only at that time.

Was there a point when God spoke to some prophet and said, "O yeah i forgot to tell you, you can eat shellfish again and wear multi-fabriced clothes. Almmost forgot, gay are evil incanate fear them!" If there wasn't, i don't wanna hear about the Bible in debates. I forgot about the sacrifice bit tho, good point. Still, the Bible is interpretated to convenience, don't deny it. Unless i miss the thrust of the quote, it means that yes rich guys go to hell. I don't buy it, but i also don't think that there really is anything wrong with being gay. (Actually i think it might be a hormone imbalnce, not a choice, i could be wqrong tho, cause I'm not gay.)

There are no "new sets of values". Animals aren't sacrificed anymore because the purpose of that was to repent for your sins - Jesus was *the* sacrifice who rendered any future sacrifices unneccesary. As far as the "rich guy" quote - the point of that was simply to say that money doesn't get you to heaven, not that there is anything wrong with *having* money.

Most of the other rules (shellfish, etc.) applied only at that time.Ok, I see the point about animals being sacrificed not applying anymore, but now is eating shellfish no longer applicable? Did that rule have an expiration date? How is 'now' any different than 'then'?

If he exists he probably does. It's just that Christians seem to be the last ones to get the memos.

I doubt it, God isn't about convenience, You know what cracks me up, Creationists who disagree with eveloution say that we are all spawned from Adam and Eve right? Well then, unless all colored people EVOLVED how could they have come from Adam and Eve and be COLORED?

Ok, I see the point about animals being sacrificed not applying anymore, but now is eating shellfish no longer applicable? Did that rule have an expiration date? How is 'now' any different than 'then'?

Refrigeration. If you look at meat that is "banned" by religions, it's all the meat that goes of very quickly in the Middle Eastern climate.

Historically speaking, Jesus did exist (whether or not he was the son of some diety or not... that remains to be determined). Does that count?

I believe in Jesus and, even though I am an atheist, I deeply respect what he said, he was a revolutionary who teached a lot of good things to mankind. To bad people got the message all wrong.

The jews may be the ones that crucified the guy, but the christians are responsible for the death of his ideology.

I doubt it, God isn't about convenience, You know what cracks me up, Creationists who disagree with eveloution say that we are all spawned from Adam and Eve right? Well then, unless all colored people EVOLVED how could they have come from Adam and Eve and be COLORED?

The story of Adam and Eve is more problematic when you consider that we are all the product of incest.

Uh, nobody is "condemned to hell" for anything other than not believing in Jesus.I know i already commented on it before, but what about Jesus himself? What if he;s feeling depressed one day, and not overly confident in himself? Would he go to hell?

Refrigeration. If you look at meat that is "banned" by religions, it's all the meat that goes of very quickly in the Middle Eastern climate.

Good point, never thought of that, but really, pork without refrigeration is really dangerous to the health, maybe a few people dieing of a disease because of rotten pig that originated the whole "god will kill us if we eat it" stuff.

Refrigeration. If you look at meat that is "banned" by religions, it's all the meat that goes of very quickly in the Middle Eastern climate.

I doubt it, I mean then wouldn' the Bible say: "Unless you eat them within ____ days, they will become tainted and unfit to eat." or is common sense too much of a strecth for a religious book?

The story of Adam and Eve is more problematic when you consider that we are all the product of incest.

Yeah never thought about that. Man sooner or later I swear these posts are gonna make me an atheist.

I doubt it, God isn't about convenience, You know what cracks me up, Creationists who disagree with eveloution say that we are all spawned from Adam and Eve right? Well then, unless all colored people EVOLVED how could they have come from Adam and Eve and be COLORED?

It´s all on the noah´s ark history. He had three sons, the black one saw his dad naked and his whole race was condemned to slavery. :rolleyes: talk about overreacting...

Good point, never thought of that, but really, pork without refrigeration is really dangerous to the health, maybe a few people dieing of a disease because of rotten pig that originated the whole "god will kill us if we eat it" stuff.

Yeah, but jews still don't eat pork. I think it has more to do with the pig being an "unclean" animal tha anything else.

I know i already commented on it before, but what about Jesus himself? What if he;s feeling depressed one day, and not overly confident in himself? Would he go to hell?

I always believed in Jesus. He was a very charismatic individual and could accomplish whatever he set his mind to.

It´s all on the noah´s ark history. He had three sons, the black one saw his dad naked and his whole race was condemned to slavery. :rolleyes: talk about overreacting...

So where is the woman who helped make thes said slaves? was she black as well,Either way someone was having sex with his sister. Inbreeding?

If you miss Church on a Sunday, and then get knocked down by a bus on the following Monday, you'll go straight to Hell.

That's why all buses should be forbidden! :sniper:

I doubt it, I mean then wouldn' the Bible say: "Unless you eat them within ____ days, they will become tainted and unfit to eat." or is common sense too much of a strecth for a religious book?
Common sense? When it comes to the Old Testament laws, common sense is nowhere to be found at all.

I doubt it, I mean then wouldn' the Bible say: "Unless you eat them within ____ days, they will become tainted and unfit to eat." or is common sense too much of a strecth for a religious book?

No, it was just something that got passed down by word of mouth, and somehow (like "Chinese Whispers") became part of the religion.

Historically speaking, Jesus did exist (whether or not he was the son of some diety or not... that remains to be determined). Does that count?

OK, let me be more specific. :rolleyes: Those who believe *Jesus is the son of God* and ask him for forgiveness go into heaven. :)

Was there a point when God spoke to some prophet and said, "O yeah i forgot to tell you, you can eat shellfish again and wear multi-fabriced clothes. Almmost forgot, gay are evil incanate fear them!" If there wasn't, i don't wanna hear about the Bible in debates. I forgot about the sacrifice bit tho, good point. Still, the Bible is interpretated to convenience, don't deny it. Unless i miss the thrust of the quote, it means that yes rich guys go to hell. I don't buy it, but i also don't think that there really is anything wrong with being gay. (Actually i think it might be a hormone imbalnce, not a choice, i could be wqrong tho, cause I'm not gay.)

No, but for the most part after Jesus came most of the "rules" became unnecessary. I'm not really sure about shellfish, but I'm sure most of the stuff about what to eat was mainly for health reasons.

As far as homosexuality, it's really nothing "special" (something that you would go to hell for) because it's "just another" sin. That's all - it may be wrong to be gay but I can't say I'm any better because I have my own problems and I am imperfect and sinful as well.

With the "rich guy" quote, I think that yes, part of it is that rich people may have more difficulty getting into heaven because they might be more likely to focus their attention on getting more rather than believing in God. However it still doesn't mean that there is anything inherently wrong with *having* money.

A lot of people do interpret the Bible for convenience, yes, but that doesn't change the text of the Bible itself. If you have a specific problem with my interpretation, then please let me know.

If you miss Church on a Sunday, and then get knocked down by a bus on the following Monday, you'll go straight to Hell.

did you get that from the South Park movie? *suspicious glare* Also if that was true, what about old people who can't move? Do they go to hell as well?

Yeah never thought about that. Man sooner or later I swear these posts are gonna make me an atheist.

I wouldn't go that far. There is no reason to lose your faith over literal translations of the bible.

The key to any religion is studying it and applying your own personal feelings to it. If you take out the legends and mythology of the bible you can find some very valuable teachings.

My initial point was that most Christian parents don't give their children a chance to develop their own opinions. A key to Christianity is the early development of shame in children. They are tought to be proud of their religion yet ashamed of themselves.

wow..
you have managed to bring up almost every single tired old sterotype about the church.. you all seem very angry and hateful of something that you don't have anything to do with.. Almost every thing that you are accusing the church of, you are more or less guilty yourselves..

just as a general rule of life.. anytime you take a large organization or group and try to say that labels and behaviors fit them, you're going to come across as pretty ignorant.

None of your posts seem anything at all like my church.. so don't pick on me

ps.. i'm not planning on responding back to anything or even checking this board after this.. so you can go on and start your flame war against me.. i'm sure i'll be called many names and epiteths simply for my beleifs...

Man, there are a lot of NS cherries being broken on this thread.

My devout Christian upbringing (Lutheran schooling K-6) turned me into a self-conscious, ashamed person. I was raised to think that sex and drinking were wrong, that swear words made rock music bad for me. The subsequent coming of age that caused me to be interested in all three, filled me with self-doubt and shame. I have slowly overcame the programming I endured during my formative years and learned to accept things that did not display "good christian values" and consider myself a much better person for it.

I cringed when I heard my little brother and sister sing "My God is and Awesome God" and "God is my Best Friend" at vacation bible school, and I will never subject my children to the type of brainwashing that I went through when I was younger.



Well I've never found swearing neccessary (infact it makes people sound stupid if they swear too much) despite the fact I swear myself, having sex outside of marriage is a person's choice, although with the many STDs out there, you're taking a risk. Drinking is fine in moderation but too much isn't a good thing (d'uh) and Rock and Roll is fine, although I've never liked it myself. Religion is a personal choice and no one should be forced into it, but unfortunatly too many are. I know what I believe and why I believe it and in the end, thats all that really matters. Allow people to have religion though, or else you're just as ignorant as they are when they judge you for not having it. I go to a very open church myself, although because of all the seniors, the gay issue still gets people up tight.

are people not responding to my posts for a reason? Or is it just coincidence?

We had a pool going to see how many posts you'd make before saying that. I guessed 305.











































just kiddin'

I wouldn't go that far. There is no reason to lose your faith over literal translations of the bible.

The key to any religion is studying it and applying your own personal feelings to it. If you take out the legends and mythology of the bible you can find some very valuable teachings.

My initial point was that most Christian parents don't give their children a chance to develop their own opinions. A key to Christianity is the early development of shame in children. They are tought to be proud of their religion yet ashamed of themselves.

Well I wasn't what you call "brainwashed" we go to church when we can, but we're not super religious. Also my parents are both really smart, and so kinda agreed with my points about inconsistencies. I doubt I actually will. I just swear, the more I learn about my religion, the less religious I become.

I wouldn't go that far. There is no reason to lose your faith over literal translations of the bible.

The key to any religion is studying it and applying your own personal feelings to it. If you take out the legends and mythology of the bible you can find some very valuable teachings.

My initial point was that most Christian parents don't give their children a chance to develop their own opinions. A key to Christianity is the early development of shame in children. They are tought to be proud of their religion yet ashamed of themselves.

Any good parents (Christian or otherwise) will allow their kids to create their own opinions. What you describe has nothing to do with Christianity - that's just bad parenting.

wow..
you have managed to bring up almost every single tired old sterotype about the church.. you all seem very angry and hateful of something that you don't have anything to do with..

just as a general rule of life.. anytime you take a large organization or group and try to say that labels and behaviors fit them, you're going to come across as pretty ignorant.

None of your posts seem anything at all like my church.. so don't pick on me

Congratulations on having a very open church. I am not angry or hateful at Christianity of the Church in general. More or less, I am angry about my upbringing and the shame that is instilled in so many children in the name of God. That sort of self-loathing breeds more hatred than will ever be necessary.

Why, oh why, do people seem to think that Religion == Christianity?

Let me say this one last time before I have to add yet another thing to my sig: I am deeply religious, more so than most people, but I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Christian.

If you're gonna bash "religion", then do so. Bash them all.

Otherwise, rename the thread "Start bashing Christianity".


-Thank- you...look, while Christianity has a lot of bad apples, that doesn't mean the teachings themselves are necessarily bad or wrong. It's just that some people put their own twist on them, for better or worse. It's too big a generalization to say that 'Christianity is bad' or that 'Religion is bad'. It's just not true. Say what you mean--that religion hasn't worked for you, that your own Christian upbringing was miserable, whatever. But it's not for everyone.
And I too was a bit bothered by the fact that everyone seems to be saying that religion=Christianity. I'm a deeply devout Tendai Buddhist (not in a New Age way, this ain't a philosophy, it's a religion), and the abbot of the local temple is about as liberal as you can get. But even in Buddhism, look at Soto-Zen and Rinzai-Zen. During World War II, they were huge backers of the ultra-nationalist movements that pushed for expansion through conquest. Look at the Rape of Nanjing. -Every- belief system has its not-so-shining moments, but does that mean the basic teachings are wrong? What's wrong with 'love thy neighbor', 'respect thy parents', or even 'thou shalt have no other God but Me', if that's what you think? If you hate Christianity or religion in general for being close-minded and hateful, maybe -you're- being close-minded and hateful.

Was there a point when God spoke to some prophet and said, "O yeah i forgot to tell you, you can eat shellfish again and wear multi-fabriced clothes. Almmost forgot, gay are evil incanate fear them!" If there wasn't, i don't wanna hear about the Bible in debates. I forgot about the sacrifice bit tho, good point. Still, the Bible is interpretated to convenience, don't deny it. Unless i miss the thrust of the quote, it means that yes rich guys go to hell. I don't buy it, but i also don't think that there really is anything wrong with being gay. (Actually i think it might be a hormone imbalnce, not a choice, i could be wqrong tho, cause I'm not gay.)

The old testament rules were rules for the state of Israel and the Jews. The New Covenent brought by Jesus freed us from these rules.

Here's a corresponding passage from Acts 10.
9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[1] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."
21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"
22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

Well I've never found swearing neccessary (infact it makes people sound stupid if they swear too much) despite the fact I swear myself, having sex outside of marriage is a person's choice, although with the many STDs out there, you're taking a risk. Drinking is fine in moderation but too much isn't a good thing (d'uh) and Rock and Roll is fine, although I've never liked it myself. Religion is a personal choice and no one should be forced into it, but unfortunatly too many are. I know what I believe and why I believe it and in the end, thats all that really matters. Allow people to have religion though, or else you're just as ignorant as they are when they judge you for not having it.

I am very open to allowing people their religion. It is just that too many have never questioned their own religion and formed a personal stance of their own, or allowed their children to do so.

It is not the swearing that I am so mad about, it is the thought that swearing somehow undermines the value of something that I truely enjoy.

I do agree with you on everything you have said though.

Christianity doesn't teach shame. It does teach certain things are wrong, such as fornication, drunkeness, etc. But it doesn't teach shame. It teaches forgiveness for sin and overcoming sin, but the shame thing was your own misapplication.

wow..
you have managed to bring up almost every single tired old sterotype about the church.. you all seem very angry and hateful of something that you don't have anything to do with.. Almost every thing that you are accusing the church of, you are more or less guilty yourselves..

just as a general rule of life.. anytime you take a large organization or group and try to say that labels and behaviors fit them, you're going to come across as pretty ignorant.

None of your posts seem anything at all like my church.. so don't pick on me

ps.. i'm not planning on responding back to anything or even checking this board after this.. so you can go on and start your flame war against me.. i'm sure i'll be called many names and epiteths simply for my beleifs...
Ohmygod, you stupid hypocrite; accusing people here of stereotyping and then going off and saying something like how you expect everyone to flame you for your beliefs, as if everyone who isn't religious is anti-religious. =O

No, I'm not really serious about calling you a hypocrite. I do think most, if not all, of the people in this topic understand that Christians aren't all bad, it's just a certain portion of them that take it to the extreme.

I am very open to allowing people their religion. It is just that too many have never questioned their own religion and formed a personal stance of their own, or allowed their children to do so.

It is not the swearing that I am so mad about, it is the thought that swearing somehow undermines the value of something that I truely enjoy.

I do agree with you on everything you have said though.



Thank you. Like I said, too many people are forced into religion and thtas bad for the religion and the people. It should be a choice and I do believe things in religion are meant to be questioned. No one should have the ignorance is bliss view of their personal religion.

So where is the woman who helped make thes said slaves? was she black as well,Either way someone was having sex with his sister. Inbreeding?

Gee, I dunno man, maybe, I mean, uhh... you DO know that this damn book don´t make sense, right?

-Thank- you...look, while Christianity has a lot of bad apples, that doesn't mean the teachings themselves are necessarily bad or wrong. It's just that some people put their own twist on them, for better or worse. It's too big a generalization to say that 'Christianity is bad' or that 'Religion is bad'. It's just not true. Say what you mean--that religion hasn't worked for you, that your own Christian upbringing was miserable, whatever. But it's not for everyone.
And I too was a bit bothered by the fact that everyone seems to be saying that religion=Christianity. I'm a deeply devout Tendai Buddhist (not in a New Age way, this ain't a philosophy, it's a religion), and the abbot of the local temple is about as liberal as you can get. But even in Buddhism, look at Soto-Zen and Rinzai-Zen. During World War II, they were huge backers of the ultra-nationalist movements that pushed for expansion through conquest. Look at the Rape of Nanjing. -Every- belief system has its not-so-shining moments, but does that mean the basic teachings are wrong? What's wrong with 'love thy neighbor', 'respect thy parents', or even 'thou shalt have no other God but Me', if that's what you think? If you hate Christianity or religion in general for being close-minded and hateful, maybe -you're- being close-minded and hateful.

I never professed a hatred for religion or christianity. Personal beliefs are wonderful things. It is the blind beliefs that I can't stand. The blind beliefs are always the ones responsible for the horrors related to religion.

And these horrors always seem to be the manipulation of the masses by the powerful through religion.

Christianity doesn't teach shame. It does teach certain things are wrong, such as fornication, drunkeness, etc. But it doesn't teach shame. It teaches forgiveness for sin and overcoming sin, but the shame thing was your own misapplication.

Shame is a very prominent theme in the bible. Almost as prominent as forgiveness.

Gee, I dunno man, maybe, I mean, uhh... you DO know that this damn book don´t make sense, right?

Problems with "inbreeding" mainly have to do with the fact that genetic problems are more likely to result. This would not have been a problem with the first few people on earth because they were created perfect by God. Inbreeding only became a potential problem later on, after many generations of people.

Let´s bash other religions so!
Anyone have anything against buddhism?

Gee, I dunno man, maybe, I mean, uhh... you DO know that this damn book don´t make sense, right?

Gee, I dunno man, maybe, I mean, uhh... you DO know that this damn post don´t make sense, right?

Problems with "inbreeding" mainly have to do with the fact that genetic problems are more likely to result. This would not have been a problem with the first few people on earth because they were created perfect by God. Inbreeding only became a potential problem later on, after many generations of people.

That quite doesn't explain it. Perfect people would have perfect children, and so it wouldn't be a problem for future generations, either. I just don't believe you can take genesis literally.

Shame is a very prominent theme in the bible. Almost as prominent as forgiveness.

What verses teach that we should be ashamed?

That quite doesn't explain it. Perfect people would have perfect children, and so it wouldn't be a problem for future generations, either. I just don't believe you can take genesis literally.

Perfect people would have perfect children, true; Adam and Eve lost their perfection when they were condemned after eating the fruit, though. And, as population grows, there will be gradual changes. Over many generations, perhaps through natural selection, or just plain genetics, it could result in different colored people.

However, I disagree with the idea that all that could happen over a mere 7,000 years or so.

All people with green eyes will spend eternity raking leaves off a volcano's butt! The only way to gain eternal non-suffering, watching reruns of Gilligan's Island, is to cut out your eyes and feed them to japanese beetles. This is all true because it says so in this book I read.

Numbers 31:17-18 "…now therefore kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."


1 Sam 15:3 "Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
Ezek 9:6 "…neither have ye pity, slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women."


Deut 7:1-2 "When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee...thou shall smite them and utterly destroy them…nor shew mercy unto them."


Deut 20:11-14 "...that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword. But the women and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee."


Ezek 20:26 (RSV) "I defiled them…making them offer by fire all their first born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know I am the Lord."


Ex 12:29:30 "…the Lord smote all the first born in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon...for there was not a house where there was not one dead."


Exod 21:20-21 (NIV) "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."


Deut 15:17 "Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maid-servant thou shalt do likewise."


Lev 25:45, 46 "...of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land, and they shall be your possession...they shall be your bondmen forever."


Ex 21:7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."


Titus 2:9-10 (RSV) "Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect"


1 Tim 2:11-14 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."


1 Cor 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience...And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church"

And it goes on and on and on...

Numbers 31:17-18 "…now therefore kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."


1 Sam 15:3 "Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
Ezek 9:6 "…neither have ye pity, slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children, and women."

[insert long continuation of list]
And it goes on and on and on...
Hence my remark that when it comes to the Old Testament laws, common sense is nowhere to be found. >_o

Let´s bash other religions so!
Anyone have anything against buddhism?

Buddhism is horrible. These kids get indoctrinated in pacifism and multiple lives where their next life depends on their actions in this one. It teaches them to give up earthly pleasures and chase after phony spiritualism. And to chase after the final state of no-thingness, what kind of crap is that.

Islam is evil. Muslims indoctrinate their kids to follow the five pillars. These kids are forced to pray regularily, to not commit sins, to fast (To fast, why can't these kids eat; it's cruel), and to give to the poor. They force their kids ot believe in this non-existant Allah.

Hinduism is awful. There kids are indoctrinated in their multipple gods, and multiple lives. They have to give offerings to their gods, when these can be better used. It's horrible that these Hindu children are indoctrinated in this culture.

Christianity is evil. Forcing kids to love others, to not commit evil acts, to believe in God, and to pray, what craziness. What kind of idiocy is forgiveness, love, and the Golden Rule. What evil people forcing their kids to learn this.


Hopefully by now you guessed this is just making fun and is entirely sarcastic.

Perfect people would have perfect children, true; Adam and Eve lost their perfection when they were condemned after eating the fruit, though. And, as population grows, there will be gradual changes. Over many generations, perhaps through natural selection, or just plain genetics, it could result in different colored people.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say, thanks. :)

Too many people here are being really stupid in their grievances against Christianity. Moving on -0
Hmm, as a born again Catholic I have managed not to have problems with heavy metal - not blaming you though; you were taught wrongly obviously. Not trying to be arrogant, but Church teaching is a LOT better now! I do believe that too many Christians are unchristian and unforgiving - just think what the world would be like if everyone obeyed ALL of Jesus' teachings - look through the new test'ment and he doesn't say a single bad thing. Too many here are saying snide things like "If a Christian misses MAss and gets killed he will go to Hel). Grow up. Ever heard of Forgiving God? I will accept well thought out arguments only.

Sorry to be on the defensive, but "Winterfest" (P.C.) has really got my bloodlust raging.

Too many people here are being really stupid in their grievances against Christianity. Moving on -0
Hmm, as a born again Catholic I have managed not to have problems with heavy metal - not blaming you though; you were taught wrongly obviously. Not trying to be arrogant, but Church teaching is a LOT better now! I do believe that too many Christians are unchristian and unforgiving - just think what the world would be like if everyone obeyed ALL of Jesus' teachings - look through the new test'ment and he doesn't say a single bad thing. Too many here are saying snide things like "If a Christian misses MAss and gets killed he will go to Hel). Grow up. Ever heard of Forgiving God? I will accept well thought out arguments only.

Sorry to be on the defensive, but "Winterfest" (P.C.) has really got my bloodlust raging.

I don't exactly disagree with you. Of course, there's many christians that are unchristian and unforgiving, and those are the ones that I have a problem with.

Personally, though, I do agree with most of what Christianity has to offer. It teaches morality, which of course, is good; I'd rather live in a world full of Christians than a world full of non-believers, because really, what percentage of the population IS moral?

I do wish more people who are religious would think for themselves a bit more often, though, especially with regards to homosexuality. The bible says many things about what is wrong and what is right, which is okay when there's a reason for it. Thou shalt not kill - Obviously killing is bad because life is so rare and precious, and because violence is destructive. But the Bible doesn't really provide any valid arguments for why homosexuality is a sin.

I also happen to disagree with the fact that one can only be saved by believing in God. Really, what purpose is served by that? Isn't it kind of insignificant? I would think that it makes more sense to have more emphasis placed on living righteously rather than believing in someone who doesn't bother to prove his own existance. Some people are actually incapable of placing blind faith in a deity, because of the way they have been brought up, maybe, the way their minds have developed. Why should they be condemned to an eternity in hell for that, simply because they don't believe, even if they have their own morals and try to live as good a life as possible?

Like I said, though, despite my own personal problems against Christianity, I do agree and uphold the principles of it, or at least most of them.

Let´s bash other religions so!
Anyone have anything against buddhism?

Nah, i actually really respect Buddhists. Actually I think we should clean up our own houses before we clean up someone elses. (in other words Christians, snipe at Christianity, Atheists can attack anyone tho, their religion is pretty straightforward. I disagree with it, but it never contradicts itself.)

I also happen to disagree with the fact that one can only be saved by believing in God. Really, what purpose is served by that? Isn't it kind of insignificant? I would think that it makes more sense to have more emphasis placed on living righteously rather than believing in someone who doesn't bother to prove his own existance. Some people are actually incapable of placing blind faith in a deity, because of the way they have been brought up, maybe, the way their minds have developed. Why should they be condemned to an eternity in hell for that, simply because they don't believe, even if they have their own morals and try to live as good a life as possible?

Like I said, though, despite my own personal problems against Christianity, I do agree and uphold the principles of it, or at least most of them.

Actually, "goodness" *is* the criteria for going to heaven in the Bible. The only problem is, the level of "goodness" you must reach is perfection. God and Heaven are *perfect* - you cannot simply be "good" to get there - you must be perfect, and no human can ever achieve that. If you *could* then you certainly could be in heaven for that, but the reality is that nobody can. Hence the need for salvation by forgiveness through Jesus.

Actually, "goodness" *is* the criteria for going to heaven in the Bible. The only problem is, the level of "goodness" you must reach is perfection. God and Heaven are *perfect* - you cannot simply be "good" to get there - you must be perfect, and no human can ever achieve that. If you *could* then you certainly could be in heaven for that, but the reality is that nobody can. Hence the need for salvation by forgiveness through Jesus.

A mere technicality, then; it still doesn't do anything to help my situation. x_X

A question I hope an apologist will answer:

What good has the belief in god, or particularly the belief in jesus done for the western world?

What advantage has it given christians over non-christians and what positive things has it accomplished within christian societies?

A question I hope an apologist will answer:

What good has the belief in god, or particularly the belief in jesus done for the western world?

What advantage has it given christians over non-christians and what positive things has it accomplished within christian societies?

Well it has helped unify us to kill non-believers (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades) Brought us together to take over other's lands and rule them to our liking. It has given us presumed moral reasons for pretty much anything. Can you feel th sarcasm?

Religion would be a great thing if only it chose to be inclusive and comforting. Instead, it often teaches exclusion and hate.


well my religion doesn't teach us to hate, but i have to say that i am not brain washed i chose on my own to become a meber of my religion, there are some things that i am not sure about still but the way i figure it, even if religion is a bunch of bull, i would much rather be involved, i am a much better person because of it, i am not perfact by any means and i am certainly not the greatest member but it isn't bad to have religion

It's ironic, but my own self-doubt about my religion lead to my awakening. About the age of 13 I realized that there were a great deal of people who were better than me who would go to hell while I would be in heaven. I couldn't believe in a God who could justify that.
that was my big problem.

that and someone coudl kill 30 people and still go to heaven, while (as mentioned earlier) gandhi would go to hell because at one point in his life he lusted after someone or some shit that constitutes a sin.

then it kinda snowballed.

A mere technicality, then; it still doesn't do anything to help my situation. x_X

OK, then let me point out problems with your idea of getting to heaven based on "good works". 1st, exactly what do you use as the standard? Do you assign "points" to positive things you do and negative points to bad things? How do you know exactly how much good works you should do in order to balance out a particular sin? And most importantly, exactly how do you know you have done enough good to get to heaven?

Well it has helped unify us to kill non-believers (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades) Brought us together to take over other's lands and rule them to our liking. It has given us presumed moral reasons for pretty much anything. Can you feel th sarcasm?

I sincerely hope that you don't think any religion out there (at least not Christianity) actually teaches killing other people just because they are of a different religion. I think it's sad that there are people out there who are against "religion" for ridiculous reasons like this.

Hmm, I'm a strong believer in Taoism, anyone care to bash on that? I'd really like to hear the objections as it might help me to better understand my religion.