NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.


and you wonder why some flaming on religion goes on.... :rolleyes:

Hello Everyone!

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

First of all, hi.

Second of all, I fail to see this in my life. I do not see the opposite, but I see about the same on both sides. But I see a lot of ignorance on the side of Christianity.

I read, but decided not to respond to, the rest of your post because I failed to see anything worth responding to. Sorry...

I use to be a Christian, in case that means anything to you.

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

ok time for me to sound like a prudeish bastard. In my experience it is the religious people that are the unplesant ones - the attitude of 'screw people backwards all week and just repent on Sunday' was a doctrine the christian people I knew followed to the letter. They had no problem acting immorally, and completely unpleasantly because they were convinced that what they were doing was right with Christianity, and didn't question their actions as a result. If they had, maybe they would have seen what they were doing was, simply, wrong. They used religion as something to hide behind and to convince them that what they were doing was OK.

Sorry, but my family had a very unpleasant episode with some particular overtly-Christian people a few years back, and this totally colours my view.

Stop Bashing Religion!
no.

no.

:D

I would say extremely religious people are some of the most unpleasant on the planet...including such characters as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Osama bin Laden, etc.

Because Religion causes hate (Islam and Christianity anyway)

Hate against other religions, hate against women, hate against homosexuals

Saying all Christians are nice and all atheists are wankers hardly supports your argument, does it?

Hate against other religions, hate against women, hate against homosexuals

Not all religions...

no.
LMFAO :D

Meritocratic Argentina, surely you realize that not all Christians are saints, and not all atheists are assholes?

I hope the Meritocratic Argentinian was being sarcastic...
I think everybody who lashed out is getting laughed at.

I hope the Meritocratic Argentinian was being sarcastic...
I think everybody who lashed out is getting laughed at.

after looking at her post on 'Concerning Religion' i think they were being serious...

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

Funny, you sound very self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly. Stop whining, no one cares. -.-

And I dont see this person coming back here either. The most sick, perverted, evil, and wrong things have been done by CHRISTIANS alone. Im not even Christian anymore because of the appauling state of it. Between raping the altar boys and embezzlement, ughh, its disgusting.

Funny, you sound very self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly. Stop whining, no one cares. -.-
Right, because responding to a legitimate if poorly expressed greivance is ever so giving, humble, non-manipulative, concilatory, gentle, generous, caring, and courageous.
I'll stop bashing religion when it stops being bashworthy. But claiming no one cares is pure foolishness.

Ah, religion! The great starter of wars! The wonders of intollerance! The bliss of ignorance!

Okay, not always. Sure their are plenty of decent folks who are christians, muslims, jews, buddhists, pagans, etc. (not too sure about satanists. The ones I've known pretty much sucked). But there are plenty of lousy people of faith as well. Let's take it a step farther. There is good and bad in all of us regardless of the religious doctrine we claim to follow or not -- well most all of us. There's always exceptions. The problem that those of who choose to try and figure out our own faith (or not) have with those who seem it necesary to try and sway us to their personal belief's is that I'm supposed to be some kind of village-idiot heathen for not seeing how obviously right they are. I'm not saying I'm not some village-idiot heathen, just let me choose for myself.

What makes my personal quest for faith any less valid than someone else's, especially when it doesn't hurt anyone but me? And don't use any text to try and convert me. It might be interesting reading and have some very good points to make about living a good life (whatever that means), but it's just a book. I'm not going to take anything passed along verbally, written, re-written, translated and used by so many diferent people to say so many diferent things seriously. Now, give me burning bush or an obvious serafin (ie like in Dogma - not sure if I spelled serafin right, lo siento) or the like and I'd probably pay attention. Until then, your answers are no less valid than mine or anyone else's.

Faith! I'll take faith over religion anyday. Just leave me to my own, please.

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I am an atheist, and I can honestly say that it's Christians like you who make me lash out against your religion.

Way to share the love... I'm now officially one step further away from being 'saved' than I was before I read your post. I'm sure you're very proud.

Oh, but wait, being Christian and all, you're meant to convince people that Christianity is the way to go. Hard luck. I'd offer to save you a seat in hell, but luckily for me, I don't believe in it (yay).

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

Sling it Satan!!

I'm a christian and I don't have anything against homosexuals, other religions or non-christian beliefs. But then, I want to burn down the curches to stop ourself from locking ourself in, away from the real world.

And I dont see this person coming back here either. The most sick, perverted, evil, and wrong things have been done by CHRISTIANS alone. Im not even Christian anymore because of the appauling state of it. Between raping the altar boys and embezzlement, ughh, its disgusting.


When you talk about the Catholic Church (as far as I'm concerned) aiding and abetting criminals, I think many should have gone to jail on that charge alone. Child molestation is not an internal matter, as evidenced by its piss poor handling by the church, it is a matter for the criminal justice system. Things like this are a problem of organized, bureaucratic institutions- not the fault of Christianity per se. I personally think Christianity is a beautiful religion, but if there will be a gnashing of the teeth, some of its self appointed leaders will be the ones with sore jaws.

Religion :mp5: :D

Nice. Seconded, Friedmanville.

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

I guess the first question I would have to ask, is where do you live that has all these "imaginary" nice Christians? I don't think religion is a bad thing and religion itself is not to blame for the woes of scciety, but the people that follow the religions. In my experience, I have met more people of "god fearing" faith that meet one or more of the personality requirements that you listed for non-religious people as opposed to the the people who are either religious but non-god fearing or athiest who, more often then not, do not meet those but are in actuallity the very people that you are describing as "religious."

Also, I notice that in almost any place in the post if you replace the word religious/religion with the word Christian/Christianity it makes more sense with the words that are coupled around it. It seems to me that you are not defending religion but Your religion. Though I do agree that religion can be a good thing, I also believe that right now the majority of the "evil" in the world and in government comes from people of god-fearing faith not the non-god fearing people.

Lastly, religion, at the very least in the institutionalized way we know today, has not been around 'forever.' There may have always been beliefs in higher than man beings/power, but god did not exist in man's mind and life until the last 2000 yrs (give or take a century) and even then wasn't an institution until a few centuries after that. So beliefs have been around since the dawn of man (possibly before in animals, depending on your beliefs) but not religion.

The general point you are trying to make is an admirable and true one. It's just the fact that you are an arrogant and ignorant prick that lets you down.

I am a christian and yet my non-religious friends are some of the nicest people you are likely to meet. Not self-centred or proud at all.

So stop giving all christians a bad name with your stupid-ass post.

No, it's not Christ's fault that the majority of people who CLAIM to follow Christianity just plain don't. It's likely not yours either, though the knee-jerk generalisms made in your post aren't too loving, open or -coff- Christian on your part. Christianity has a pretty bad name among non-Christians today not just for its historic use as an excuse to subjugate other peoples, control people already in its auspices and stamp out <read destroy> those who refuse to give up their own beliefs to be assimilated into the ranks; but for the very ugly tendency a lot of people who CLAIM to be Christian have towards forcing their tenets down the throats of others while not observing them themselves. I believe the word is hypocracy.

Not all Christians are like that. I've met a number of Christians that aren't going to be pimpslapped by the diety in the afterlife for making It look like a spoiled teenager with a bad case of PMS. And I've met a good number of non-Christians who are in severe need of an attitude adjustment. The numbers tend to balance out. No matter what a person CLAIMS to believe, their actions speak far more loudly than the labels they choose to paste on themselves. Truth is, most people just suck. Can't phrase it any more plainly. I personally couldn't care what faith a person follows or claims to follow, so log as they're intelligent, have a sense of humor and aren't terminal asshats about what they believe in. If you treat me well, I return the investment of effort in kindness and openmindedness. If you give me a ration of crap, I'm just going to verbally backhand you and walk away. You get what you give.

Allow me to address your steriotypes here.

self-centred... not really.
full of false pride... Those few things I have pride in, I have laboured long and hard to achieve. Nothing false about that. And I'm not going to indulge in faked humbleness. It's just as repugnant.
dont have time for other people... I MAKE time for others who need and deserve it.
manipulative... Occasionally, when I'm forced to it
argumentative... Guilty as charged
over-hard... Actually, I've been accused of being too softhearted
greedy... Not. At. All.
uncaring... ummm... no.
cowardly... only when it comes to dentists and ticks. At which point I will promplty squeal like a ten year old and pass out. Occasionally proceeded by getting nautious or flailing my arms madly.

Now let's get a little logic into this.

Religion does not CAUSE hate.
People cause hate.
People use religion as an excuse for their bad behavior.
People blame their religion for their hate towards certain other types of people.
Thusly, Everyone Else says "Okay, Religion sucks".

So, religion isn't inherently evil, but it makes a very convenient weapon for people who are.

There you have it.

and oh yeah... *huggles on Sean O Mac because he's cool*

Are just arguments over who has the best imaginary friend.

Are just arguments over who has the best imaginary friend.
Well, no. They're wars over who can best mislead their people into thinking that bloodshed is what their diety wants.

What Would Jesus Do?

He wouldn't call anyone all the things you just did. Or judge anyone.

I'm a Satanist, and I know a lot of Satanists out there have really nasty attitudes, but the ideas behind it are appealing to those kinds of people.

Nice. Seconded, Friedmanville.

Gracias :D

Congratulations for being the perfect example of why people bash religion. You tell people "stop bashing religion, Christians are all nice people. Kittens and rainbows and butterflies. Lallalala." But then you go right on to say than non-religious people are the scum of the earth.

We'll stop bashing religion, when you stop bashing the non-religous.

Sadly enough I have encoutered your type almost exclusively in the mono-theistic and Abrahamic religions. Many monotheists feel that their religion in "the one true way". Which I find to be extremely arogant.

I am an athiest and I admit that I am a miserable, self-righteous bastard.

But I propose that our thread starter is one two.

LMFAO :D

Meritocratic Argentina, surely you realize that not all Christians are saints, and not all atheists are assholes?

NOT all christians are saints but all athiests are assholes.

NOT all christians are saints but all athiests are assholes.

subtle that one, subtle

NOT all christians are saints but all athiests are assholes.

HA! You must be an athiest.

lets bash religion a little more :headbang:
to be honest religion sux and should therefor be assasinated :mp5:
so to all religion :fluffle: huggers die :sniper: a painfull death :gundge:
well at least suffer a little :eek: :mp5:

NOT all christians are saints but all athiests are assholes.

Ignorance is bliss, huh? Go pray for a fish or somethin...

Although I agree religion is inherently dangerous, one should not blame the religious people for all the bad religion can do. Those people are just the victims of religion. They are born in it and have been brain-washed from birth. They don't control religion. And anyway, as much as religion sucks, blaming people doesn't help. Bash religion, don't bash people.

I just cant see what the problem is?

You'll understand in a few seconds.

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around.

They are, until they meet someone with different beliefs. Then their shit smells like roses and everyone else's smells like, er, shit!

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

Someday people will wise up and learn to live with each other instead of placing themselves on a pedestal. BTW, I'm an ex-christian and full-time atheist.

As evidence that Meritocratic Argentina is most likely not being sarcastic, I submit from my "Exposing the hypocrisy of Christianity" thread:

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7512384&postcount=192

and

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7512384&postcount=199

I'll think about it.

...

No.

well, i find that the problems isn't religion, it's IQ, people of low IQs are likley to blindly follow what someone TELLS them a holy book says, people of higher IQ are more likley to read the books them selves and decide what it means to them and if it is right nor not, so they are more likley to form opinions based on religious texts which are logical, and the low IQ people more likley to form opinions that are 2000-6000 years out of date.

well, i find that the problems isn't religion, it's IQ, people of low IQs are likley to blindly follow what someone TELLS them a holy book says, people of higher IQ are more likley to read the books them selves and decide what it means to them and if it is right nor not, so they are more likley to form opinions based on religious texts which are logical, and the low IQ people more likley to form opinions that are 2000-6000 years out of date.

Got any evidence to support that claim, Mr. Grammar?

well, i find that the problems isn't religion, it's IQ, people of low IQs are likley to blindly follow what someone TELLS them a holy book says, people of higher IQ are more likley to read the books them selves and decide what it means to them and if it is right nor not, so they are more likley to form opinions based on religious texts which are logical, and the low IQ people more likley to form opinions that are 2000-6000 years out of date.
wow, thats really mean to religious people. Anyway to start poking holes in your theory: What about Albert Einstein??? There were many people with high IQs that were "religious". You are generalizing like many people in this forum. You can't just group a whole bunch of people together and say they are exactly the same. We are all guilty of this ehehe

Used to be Christian.

Why is it that every religion says that you shouldn't kill but all of our "Christian Soldiers" (Here in the US) are lining up to go kill Muslims in Iraq? It truely is a Holy War which I feel pretty shotty about considering I'm not in a religion. So if I end up having to dodge a draft, I guess you could consider it cowardice, but I consider your religion a fashist state, forcing people to believe, and KILL, in the name of your 'God.'

wow, thats really mean to religious people. Anyway to start poking holes in your theory: What about Albert Einstein??? There were many people with high IQs that were "religious". You are generalizing like many people in this forum. You can't just group a whole bunch of people together and say they are exactly the same. We are all guilty of this ehehe

Nah it's not really. What they're trying to say is that a person of low IQ would say, read the bible or the Qu'ran instead of just following what people say about it.

An example of this is the honour killing of wives in Pakistan. It's not ordained by the Qu'ran, but people do it in the name of Allah because they have been told that Allah says to. In actual fact, they cannot verify whether this is true or false since they cannot read arabic.

A person of high IQ, on the other hand, would read the bible, or Qu'ran, and actually follow it's teaching. Ie, a Christian of decent IQ would be more predisposed to love thy neighbor.

It's not actually saying that dumb people are religious, or vice versa. It's saying that people who blindy follow without actually paying attention to what they're following are dumb.

Or, perhaps that's not what they were saying, but what they should be saying. After all, if you read a text, you evaluate it, and you agree with it, you're not dumb. If you read the bible and like it, that's ok, be a Christian. If you don't, then don't, and that's okay.

In my opinion, we shouldn't be bashing religion, but bigots. They come in all shapes and sizes, and not just in religion.

Religion leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering

Yea religion!

Religion leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering

Yea religion!

Religion is the path to the dark side??? o.O

Religion leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering

Yea religion!

You have it turned around. Suffering leads to hate. Hate leads to anger. Anger leads to religion. Why do you think non-believers are supposed to burn in hell.

Nah it's not really. What they're trying to say is that a person of low IQ would say, read the bible or the Qu'ran instead of just following what people say about it.

An example of this is the honour killing of wives in Pakistan. It's not ordained by the Qu'ran, but people do it in the name of Allah because they have been told that Allah says to. In actual fact, they cannot verify whether this is true or false since they cannot read arabic.

A person of high IQ, on the other hand, would read the bible, or Qu'ran, and actually follow it's teaching. Ie, a Christian of decent IQ would be more predisposed to love thy neighbor.

It's not actually saying that dumb people are religious, or vice versa. It's saying that people who blindy follow without actually paying attention to what they're following are dumb.
Agreed ... though there is a sickengly high rate of people who dont read their religious books the profess faith in
(at least with my childhood rooted in christianity that is what i saw)

And thoes that do cant seem to decern between litteral truth or Just it acting like a general moral compas (a lot profess one then do the other)
Personaly what bugs me about most religions is the hypocracy that comes inharent with it.

You have it turned around. Suffering leads to hate. Hate leads to anger. Anger leads to religion. Why do you think non-believers are supposed to burn in hell.
I think it works either way. Doesn't matter really, according to this thread I'm gonna burn in the fires of hell. Ah well, wonder how I'll taste?

I think it works either way. Doesn't matter really, according to this thread I'm gonna burn in the fires of hell. Ah well, wonder how I'll taste?

I don't know but you will smell HORRIBLE.

I don't know but you will smell HORRIBLE.

They'd smell better without hair, but then human flesh is just stinky. No way of avoiding it.

I don't know but you will smell HORRIBLE.
Thanks...

They'd smell better without hair, but then human flesh is just stinky. No way of avoiding it.

Other than burning people, no there is no way to avoid the smell of burning flesh.

And to L-Rouge I mean that you would smell horrible if you burnt for eternity.

And to L-Rouge I mean that you would smell horrible if you burnt for eternity.
Ah...in which case, I'd probably agree. Nice tan though! :cool:

Ah...in which case, I'd probably agree. Nice tan though! :cool:

If you go for blackened and crispy people, then yeah. Or at least rather red. If it was baking under eternal tanning lights, that would probably get a better tan :P

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

Finally some real debate and not just mindless generalizations!

What? Erm... oops.

the only reason that christianity gets a bad rap is that the majority of people that claim to be christians aren't really, and that people think that christians should be as good as they are told to be in the bible, which is impossible, since we are humans. Most people that say they are christians just believe what their pastor says, which isn't allways true. Some scum tastic people claim to be christians, giving people that are trying to live right bad names. Saying that all people that aren't christians are jerks isn't true, a lot of good people are repulsed by the jerks that pretend to be so holy, like those people that stand on the corners and try to scare people into christianity, and those catholic priest freaks

Hey, Guess What.

What?

Frog Butt.

>bad rap
They need a better producer.

I stop bashing religion when it stops telling me I'm going to hell.

An example of this is the honour killing of wives in Pakistan. It's not ordained by the Qu'ran, but people do it in the name of Allah because they have been told that Allah says to. In actual fact, they cannot verify whether this is true or false since they cannot read arabic.

I never knew that...but here's something along the same lines.

In the Koran, it says that women should dress modestly. It does NOT say, at all, that women must be veiled head to toe.

Interesting, isn't it?

I never knew that...but here's something along the same lines.

In the Koran, it says that women should dress modestly. It does NOT say, at all, that women must be veiled head to toe.

Interesting, isn't it?
reminds me of these nuts
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/homemake/biblest5.htm

reminds me of these nuts
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/homemake/biblest5.htm

I like this bit:

Eve is surely listening to the voice of the serpent again. Eve should have referred the serpent to Adam in the beginning.

There have been too many people who have replied to this thread that it would take forever to reply to everyone.

You guys have come across as extremely intolerant and to put it frankly-vile.
You obviously are intolerant of any kind of religion and a few of you have expressded a desire to rid the world of religion if you had the chance.

What I attempted to explain in my first post is that religion can be a good thing and it is not the source of world problems. Like so many of you are claiming it to be.

Also I did not attempt to convert anyone, I just used my example of how my involvement with Christianity had improved my life and I saw many positive thing happen to people as a result of religion.

Im sorry if anyone here posted has had bad experience with Religion or Christianity specifically but you didnt need to go off at me the way you did.

I like this bit:
mine is
[Editor's note: As a disgusting counterpoint to this, young men and boys dress in long shorts and pants that are so many sizes too big for them they look as if they are wearing skirts and dresses and can be mistaken for women from a distance, especially in poor light.]

Religion leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering

Yea religion!Provide more evidence that people of every single religion goes around hating people and causing suffering. FOrget for a moment about people like Mother Teresa.

NOT all christians are saints but all athiests are assholes.True but I did say we werent perfect

Provide more evidence that people of every single religion goes around hating people and causing suffering. FOrget for a moment about people like Mother Teresa.
single examples of truly good people do not make up for the hundreds of ones that the religion supported killing and raping and molesting and all the other stuff that religion is so susceptable to be used to support

The general point you are trying to make is an admirable and true one. It's just the fact that you are an arrogant and ignorant prick that lets you down.

I am a christian and yet my non-religious friends are some of the nicest people you are likely to meet. Not self-centred or proud at all.

So stop giving all christians a bad name with your stupid-ass post.Sean,

your post is incredibly ignorant. If you bothered to read my post you would see that I said generally people who werent religious were self-ish, cowardly etc..

Got it now Mac?

I try to respect everyones religious beliefs, I just wish that certain religious groups would do the same for me being athiest.

Sean,

your post is incredibly ignorant. If you bothered to read my post you would see that I said generally people who werent religious were self-ish, cowardly etc..

Got it now Mac?
And he was giving anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
Personally I agree with him … I think you got things backwards little buddy

[QUOTE=Meritocratic Argentina]Hello Everyone!

>>I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.<<<

WHOA THERE.
Your first statement is why Christians get bashed. You are doing a LOT of talking, but from where I am, I see condemnation. BLIND condemnation.
Christian does NOT = good guy and non-religious = bad, scum of the earth type. That you think so, is a false dichotomy.

I personally have met many more decent, loving, caring non-religious types than I have religious "my faith system (Christianity) is better than you!" prigs.

Think about it.

>>Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.<<<

It can. When it does honestly make a person more compassionate. But beware, it can also make the new convert a PIA of the first order.
And what happens when all that the outsider sees is now a judgmental, hypocritcal jerk who just spouts the "burn in hell you heathens" type?

Just how 'Christian' is it to taunt, HARASS, and otherwise make life hellish for a fellow student who just happens to be pagan? Just how 'Christian' is it for total scumbags like the NON - Rev Phelps to brings signs saying 'Matt Shepard is roasting in Hell', at the graveside service of Matt Shepard?

There have been too many people who have replied to this thread that it would take forever to reply to everyone.

You guys have come across as extremely intolerant and to put it frankly-vile.
You obviously are intolerant of any kind of religion and a few of you have expressded a desire to rid the world of religion if you had the chance.

What I attempted to explain in my first post is that religion can be a good thing and it is not the source of world problems. Like so many of you are claiming it to be.

Also I did not attempt to convert anyone, I just used my example of how my involvement with Christianity had improved my life and I saw many positive thing happen to people as a result of religion.

Im sorry if anyone here posted has had bad experience with Religion or Christianity specifically but you didnt need to go off at me the way you did.

Your original post is incredibly arrogant, and you come across as a hypocrite of the highest degree. I cite:


Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

From the beginning of your post, you make your opinions of any and all who would disagree with you well known. You also exhibit many of the traits that you are decrying atheists for, specifically "full of false pride", "self-centered", and "argumentative".

No one has said anything "vile", at least in my opinion. What is alot more likely is that you have extremely thin skin when it comes to disparaging your religion. Yet, as I previously pointed out, you have already detailed your contempt for non-religious people, so any attempts at portraying yourself as a victim of any sort are, once again, arrogant.

You may profess your good intentions with this thread, but the fact simply is that you intended to use it as a lightning rod for people opposed to you. A statement such as:

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.


is most obviously going to attract negative attention from those whom it offends, and rightly so. But to include such an obvious attempt at inflaming those opposed to you, and then feign offense when people do become inflamed, is, for a third time, arrogant. And to pretend like it was not your intent to create argument is absurd. So, I say to you, go troll in a corner by yourself.

Hello Everyone!

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...


Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!


point 1...nice christian people like George Bush, Tony Blair and Adolf Hitler (all claimed they were Christians)

point 2....I dont think all christians, etc are nice, in fact, they are also self centred, proud of their religions and buildings, too proud to tolerate someone elses point of view

point 3....surely the worse war/genocide crimes were in the name of religion. religion being a baseless group of ideas, formed by convenience and to oppress the masses, rather than being based on any scientific fact

There have been too many people who have replied to this thread that it would take forever to reply to everyone.

You guys have come across as extremely intolerant and to put it frankly-vile.
You obviously are intolerant of any kind of religion and a few of you have expressded a desire to rid the world of religion if you had the chance.

What I attempted to explain in my first post is that religion can be a good thing and it is not the source of world problems. Like so many of you are claiming it to be.

Also I did not attempt to convert anyone, I just used my example of how my involvement with Christianity had improved my life and I saw many positive thing happen to people as a result of religion.

Im sorry if anyone here posted has had bad experience with Religion or Christianity specifically but you didnt need to go off at me the way you did.

Now hang on... we were discussing your post because we were, yes, mildly offended by the fact that you generalised atheists into nasty prideful selfish people... and we're the vile ones?

Religion is not the source of all world problems. The way religion is handled, however, is the source of many. Things such as holier-than-thou extremists, cultural misunderstandings, and ignorance of what religion really means, and what people are supposed to get from it.

After all, reading an understanding the Qu'ran, bible, Ramayana, Pancasila, or any of that, is not going to make you a worse person. It will probably make you a better, more tolerant, more educated person. Except the problem is that most people *don't*. Most professed christians don't read the bible, or don't know how to properly interpret it as a text. They just go with what the crowd tells them Christianity is all about, and it seems that the crowd is saying "yay prejudice" all too often these days.

Provide more evidence that people of every single religion goes around hating people and causing suffering. FOrget for a moment about people like Mother Teresa.

Religion does not make people good or bad. Religion is an excuse for people to act good or bad, to credit it or blame it for the behavior they choose. There are some AWFUL Christians and AWFUL Muslims and AWFUL Buddhists or AWFUL anythings who do AWFUL things in the name of *insert deity here*. There are also people who use religion as a lens to look at life, and who choose to do good things with it.

Mother Theresa, interestingly enough, was a tough cuss who was hard on her junior sisters and considered somewhat rough socially. She was so committed to her mission, however, and so fervent in doing good that many have forgotten her somewhat abrasive personality. Goodness, in her case, has forgiven some of her social inadequacies that in the end didn't matter because of what she chose to do with her faith. She could have easily been a horrible human being who did terrible things in the name of God...but she didn't. She made a choice, a wise choice that has positively affected untold people.

That's how religion works. Religion or lack of it will not make you as a person, and you have to be pretty naive and self-absorbed to think otherwise. Your post is EXACTLY why Christians receive a bad name. If you were really secure in yourself, and really cared for other people as Jesus taught us...you'd not think the way you do about those who do not share your beliefs. Jesus is your lens through life: be accepting, or at least tolerant, of the fact that others may choose a different path.


Ge-Ren, an accepting Catholic

listen, I'm getting excessive holier-than-thou attitudes from both sides of this debate. As well as excessive amounts of stereotyping. From both sides. Just chill. It's not like someone's beliefs in Jesus, Allah, Brahma Vishnu and Shiva, or nothing at all are going to cause you harm. Just accept the fact that they believe as such, the world would be much better.

Religion has it's good points, and it's down points. It can inspire masses to go out and help those less fortuneate, or it can inspire the masses to go out on a massive-ass Crusade and kill milllions.

Let's not be so angsty, philosophies on both ends of the spectrum have killed million, upon millions, so no belief (or non-belief) is blood free.

A VERY liberal Protestant (former deist)

And I dont see this person coming back here either. The most sick, perverted, evil, and wrong things have been done by CHRISTIANS alone. Im not even Christian anymore because of the appauling state of it. Between raping the altar boys and embezzlement, ughh, its disgusting.

You forget this (and this is the nub fault behind all criticsim of religion) Religion is not the actions of their followers. It is a set of principals, beliefs and ideas and the reasoing behind them. Yes religious people have done some appauling things but that does not change what the religion is/stands for.

You forget this (and this is the nub fault behind all criticsim of religion) Religion is not the actions of their followers. It is a set of principals, beliefs and ideas and the reasoing behind them. Yes religious people have done some appauling things but that does not change what the religion is/stands for.
Where do church leaders fall in? priests … bishops … popes?

To me they fall in the middle ground because they are PART of the religion … and its interface with humanity as a whole.

What if they do wrong?

Or condone things like wars?

What if they actively push for one scenario or another that is evil?

How does that effect religion?

Ignorance again. More people have been killed in the 20th century alone, in
the name of anti-religious and allegedly "scientific" ideologies (Communism and Nazism) than in all the persecutions, crusades, etc. of history combined.
athiesm is a belief of its own ... so could be concidered religion
so they were killed by other religious people lol

atiests are not , not religious ... they dont believe in a diety... there is a difference

Oh dear. And just as everyone was starting to get on so well in this thread. And now ignorance on both sides is ruling.

Religion (or lack of) does not make a good/bad person.

Religion does not make people good or bad. Religion is an excuse for people to act good or bad, to credit it or blame it for the behavior they choose. There are some AWFUL Christians and AWFUL Muslims and AWFUL Buddhists or AWFUL anythings who do AWFUL things in the name of *insert deity here*. There are also people who use religion as a lens to look at life, and who choose to do good things with it.

Mother Theresa, interestingly enough, was a tough cuss who was hard on her junior sisters and considered somewhat rough socially. She was so committed to her mission, however, and so fervent in doing good that many have forgotten her somewhat abrasive personality. Goodness, in her case, has forgiven some of her social inadequacies that in the end didn't matter because of what she chose to do with her faith. She could have easily been a horrible human being who did terrible things in the name of God...but she didn't. She made a choice, a wise choice that has positively affected untold people.

That's how religion works. Religion or lack of it will not make you as a person, and you have to be pretty naive and self-absorbed to think otherwise. Your post is EXACTLY why Christians receive a bad name. If you were really secure in yourself, and really cared for other people as Jesus taught us...you'd not think the way you do about those who do not share your beliefs. Jesus is your lens through life: be accepting, or at least tolerant, of the fact that others may choose a different path.


Ge-Ren, an accepting Catholic

This Catholic hears you loud and clear!

athiesm is a belief of its own ... so could be concidered religion
so they were killed by other religious people lol

atiests are not , not religious ... they dont believe in a diety... there is a difference
That wasn't a clear post, that's why I deleted it. But I am not saying that all or even most atheists are killers. I'm going to try that post again and it should be clearer this time.

That wasn't a clear post, that's why I deleted it. But I am not saying that all or even most atheists are killers. I'm going to try that post again and it should be clearer this time.
Lol sorry for being quick off the line :)

point 1...nice christian people like George Bush, Tony Blair and Adolf Hitler (all claimed they were Christians)

Check your history. Hitler, although brought up Catholic like most Austrians of his era, as an adult did not practice Catholicism. In fact he despised Christianity and wanted to destroy it once he finished with the Jews.



point 3....surely the worse war/genocide crimes were in the name of religion. religion being a baseless group of ideas, formed by convenience and to oppress the masses, rather than being based on any scientific fact

More people have been killed in the 20th century alone in the name of ideology and political power (Communism and Nazism) than in all of history's crusades, persecutions etc. Of course it could be argued that the Stalin and Mao personality cults and the Nazi leader-principle were religions of a sort.
Not that all or even most atheists are killers (I know many and they are generally peaceful people). The point is that when the Great Leader takes the place of the Deity and the Thoughts of the Chairman become the Holy Book, you will inevitably end up with something far worse than any ayatollah or crusading pope.

Religion does not make people good or bad. Religion is an excuse for people to act good or bad, to credit it or blame it for the behavior they choose. There are some AWFUL Christians and AWFUL Muslims and AWFUL Buddhists or AWFUL anythings who do AWFUL things in the name of *insert deity here*. There are also people who use religion as a lens to look at life, and who choose to do good things with it.

Mother Theresa, interestingly enough, was a tough cuss who was hard on her junior sisters and considered somewhat rough socially. She was so committed to her mission, however, and so fervent in doing good that many have forgotten her somewhat abrasive personality. Goodness, in her case, has forgiven some of her social inadequacies that in the end didn't matter because of what she chose to do with her faith. She could have easily been a horrible human being who did terrible things in the name of God...but she didn't. She made a choice, a wise choice that has positively affected untold people.

That's how religion works. Religion or lack of it will not make you as a person, and you have to be pretty naive and self-absorbed to think otherwise. Your post is EXACTLY why Christians receive a bad name. If you were really secure in yourself, and really cared for other people as Jesus taught us...you'd not think the way you do about those who do not share your beliefs. Jesus is your lens through life: be accepting, or at least tolerant, of the fact that others may choose a different path.


Ge-Ren, an accepting Catholic

hearhear! hearhear! *claps*

Check your history. Hitler, although brought up Catholic like most Austrians of his era, as an adult did not practice Catholicism. In fact he despised Christianity and wanted to destroy it once he finished with the Jews.





More people have been killed in the 20th century alone in the name of ideology and political power (Communism and Nazism) than in all of history's crusades, persecutions etc. Of course it could be argued that the Stalin and Mao personality cults and the Nazi leader-principle were religions of a sort.
Not that all or even most atheists are killers (I know many and they are generally peaceful people). The pouint is that when the Great Leader takes the place of the Deity and the Thoughts of the Chairman become the Holy Book, you will inevitably end up with something far worse than any ayatollah or crusading pope.


I dont know worse ... the crusaders just did the best they could back in the day ... deffinatly not for a lack of trying anyways

Hello Everyone!


I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.



People bash religions, because many religious people kill, steal and do other crimes in the name of their religion. Of course religion teaches correct things (If everyone followed the Ten Commandments, there would be no crime), but people just never learned their religion, and/or don't follow it.

While the original poster makes her point in a bad way, (insulting atheists), the point that people should stop bashing religion is a good one. I'm sick of people on these forums insulting me because of my religious beliefs. I don't mind if your atheist, and you shouldn't mind if I'm Christian. I've met good Atheists, and bad Atheists. Ditto for religious people. Christianity, and the majority of Christians aren't bad; you shouldn't insult it/us because of some obscure maniacs. That would be like me attacking all atheists because Frederick Nietzche had sex with his sister.

Oh dear. And just as everyone was starting to get on so well in this thread. And now ignorance on both sides is ruling.

Religion (or lack of) does not make a good/bad person.
Yes, but it can make some naturally immoral people moral. What I mean is that they lack a good moral compass, and religious teachings can provide some of them with one.

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.
what about the cowardly, greedy, maipulative christians?

some people are jerks, regardless of what they believe.

edit: oh, and if you want to talk about false pride: "i'm going to heaven, you're going to hell neener-neener, but i'll pray for you." uh... yeah...

Yes, but it can make some naturally immoral people moral. What I mean is that they lack a good moral compass, and religious teachings can provide some of them with one.
there are naturally immoral people?

since when?

personality is a result of environment...

I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

Wow, and where do you live?

Furthermore, if you think christians are the nicest people ever, and if we're using generalizations, then you need to meet some Buddhists.

You guys have come across as extremely intolerant and to put it frankly-vile.
then they matched the tone of your first post.

You obviously are intolerant of any kind of religion and a few of you have expressded a desire to rid the world of religion if you had the chance.
no, but thanks for that wonderful assumption. *thumbs up*

What I attempted to explain in my first post is that religion can be a good thing and it is not the source of world problems. Like so many of you are claiming it to be.

Also I did not attempt to convert anyone, I just used my example of how my involvement with Christianity had improved my life and I saw many positive thing happen to people as a result of religion.

Im sorry if anyone here posted has had bad experience with Religion or Christianity specifically but you didnt need to go off at me the way you did.
funny how you neglect to mention the part where you slam every non-christian in your retelling of your first post.

I wonder what Christians most of the people in this thread have been hanging around. Some of you see the word religous or Christian and you seem to immediately think, "Oh noes! An incredibly arrogant extremist who's intolerant of all other beliefs and is going to try to convert me by telling me I'll go to hell if I don't!" Now, I'm a Christian, but I fully tolerate other beliefs (or lack of them). I don't try to convert my best friend, who happens to be atheist. I don't mind if someone is Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever. I think they're wrong, mainly because Christ himself said that his way was the only way, but I don't hate them for it. I've read the Bible, part of the Qu'ran (rather hard to read, every few words it reminds you that it's the word of Allah), formulated my own opinions about them, and accepted Christianity. The only thing that really angers me is when people automatically lump people into a group, be they Christian, atheist, agnostic, anything.

I wonder what Christians most of the people in this thread have been hanging around. Some of you see the word religous or Christian and you seem to immediately think, "Oh noes! An incredibly arrogant extremist who's intolerant of all other beliefs and is going to try to convert me by telling me I'll go to hell if I don't!" Now, I'm a Christian, but I fully tolerate other beliefs (or lack of them). I don't try to convert my best friend, who happens to be atheist. I don't mind if someone is Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever. I think they're wrong, mainly because Christ himself said that his way was the only way, but I don't hate them for it. I've read the Bible, part of the Qu'ran (rather hard to read, every few words it reminds you that it's the word of Allah), formulated my own opinions about them, and accepted Christianity. The only thing that really angers me is when people automatically lump people into a group, be they Christian, atheist, agnostic, anything.

Not so much who we hang around, simply that those people are the loudest. Not your fault, just how it goes.

True...sadly the smallest minority is also the loudest...'Specially when it comes to religion, what with militant Islam and some forum goer's experiences with Christians...(I like ellipses).

I would like to apologise to anyone who has had a bad experience with a Christian.

But I cannot. I cannot change people's minds, I cannot make people see their own hypocrysy. I also cannot apologise for their actions. All I can do is keep saying what I believe to be true, and hope that it influences someone for the better.

I would love to say that I hate no one, and that I don't hold it against a person when they reveal that their beliefs are different than mine. Unfortunatly, I cannot. I'm not perfect, no one is.

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

I absolutely agree.

I have absolutely no reason to bash religion.

The only reasons I might object to religion, are the actions of the religious... so I will object to the religious as long as they see fit to tell me:

What days I can work,
What days I can drink acohol,
Which gender I am allowed to marry,
How many partners I am allowed to have,
What my wife is allowed to do with her uterus,
How to raise my children,
Which icons I am allowed to adorn my personal property and body with...

etc.

You get the message... I'll happily tolerate religion... once it happily tolerates me.

Not so much who we hang around, simply that those people are the loudest. Not your fault, just how it goes.

It is unfortunate... there are several persons of religious conviction on these boards... but they do not attract much attention in comparison, because they are capable of making arguments outside of the confines of rote rhetoric, and actually present original thoughts and insights.

In comparison, there are some very loud, very insistent... (and, usually, less well informed) individuals, who polarise the opinions of the observers.

The same, I'm sure, is just as true in the outside world.

I think Graham Nash said it best....

"Too many people have died in the name of Christ for anyone to heed the call,

So many people have lied in the name of Christ that I can't believe it all"

i don't intend to stop "bashing" beliefs that i see as dangerous, ignorant, irrational, or unhealthy, and i hope nobody else here will be stopping their "bashing" either. i will bash homophobic beliefs, racist beliefs, religious beliefs, and the belief that heroine is really good for you. if the people holding these beliefs cannot handle having their thinking challenged then they should avoid speaking in public forums.

people also need to learn the difference between bashing a PERSON and bashing their BELIEFS; i will bash Christianity, but that doesn't mean i am bashing Christians as individuals. i believe they are engaging in a stupid and harmful belief system, but otherwise intelligent and well-meaning people will often do stupid and harmful things for a variety of reason.

oh, and:
wow, thats really mean to religious people. Anyway to start poking holes in your theory: What about Albert Einstein??? There were many people with high IQs that were "religious". You are generalizing like many people in this forum. You can't just group a whole bunch of people together and say they are exactly the same. We are all guilty of this ehehe
what about Albert Einstein?

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
[Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

as for the over-all correlation between religiosity and intelligence, that's hard to say. it really depends on how you measure intelligence, and that will skew things considerably. but i can give you ample information about the correlation between education and religiosity (hint: it's a negative correlation). my conclusion, based on the evidence, is that people with strong religious beliefs tend to be ignorant of the alternatives, and people who become educated in alternatives to superstition tend to reject superstition. from a buddy's site:

STUDIES OF STUDENTS

1. Thomas Howells, 1927
Study of 461 students showed religiously conservative students "are, in general, relatively inferior in intellectual ability."

2. Hilding Carlsojn, 1933
Study of 215 students showed that "there is a tendency for the more intelligent undergraduate to be sympathetic toward… atheism."

3. Abraham Franzblau, 1934
Confirming Howells and Carlson, tested 354 Jewish children, aged 10-16. Found a negative correlation between religiosity and IQ as measured by the Terman intelligence test.

4. Thomas Symington, 1935
Tested 400 young people in colleges and church groups. He reported, "There is a constant positive relation in all the groups between liberal religious thinking and mental ability… There is also a constant positive relation between liberal scores and intelligence…"

5. Vernon Jones, 1938
Tested 381 students, concluding "a slight tendency for intelligence and liberal attitudes to go together."

6. A. R. Gilliland, 1940
At variance with all other studies, found "little or no relationship between intelligence and attitude toward god."

7. Donald Gragg, 1942
Reported an inverse correlation between 100 ACE freshman test scores and Thurstone "reality of god" scores.

8. Brown and Love, 1951
At the University of Denver, tested 613 male and female students. The mean test scores of non-believers was 119 points, and for believers it was 100. The non-believers ranked in the 80th percentile, and believers in the 50th. Their findings "strongly corroborate those of Howells."

9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."

10. Jeffrey Hadden, 1963
Found no correlation between intelligence and grades. This was an anomalous finding, since GPA corresponds closely with intelligence. Other factors may have influenced the results at the University of Wisconsin.

11. Young, Dustin and Holtzman, 1966
Average religiosity decreased as GPA rose.

12. James Trent, 1967
Polled 1400 college seniors. Found little difference, but high-ability students in his sample group were over-represented.

13. C. Plant and E. Minium, 1967
The more intelligent students were less religious, both before entering college and after 2 years of college.

14. Robert Wuthnow, 1978
Of 532 students, 37 percent of Christians, 58 percent of apostates, and 53 percent of non-religious scored above average on SATs.

15. Hastings and Hoge, 1967, 1974
Polled 200 college students and found no significant correlations.

16. Norman Poythress, 1975
Mean SATs for strongly anti-religious (1148), moderately anti-religious (1119), slightly anti-religious (1108), and religious (1022).

17. Wiebe and Fleck, 1980
Studied 158 male and female Canadian university students. They reported "nonreligious S's tended to be strongly intelligent" and "more intelligent than religious S's."


STUDENT BODY COMPARISONS

1. Rose Goldsen, 1952
Percentage of students who believe in a divine god: Harvard 30; UCLA 32; Dartmouth 35; Yale 36; Cornell 42; Wayne 43; Weslyan 43; Michigan 45; Fisk 60; Texas 62; North Carolina 68.

2. National Review Study, 1970
Percentage of students who believe in a Spirit or Divine God: Reed 15; Brandeis 25; Sarah Lawrence 28; Williams 36; Stanford 41; Boston U. 41; Yale 42; Howard 47; Indiana 57; Davidson 59; S. Carolina 65; Marquette 77.

3. Caplovitz and Sherrow, 1977
Apostasy rates rose continuously from 5 percent in "low" ranked schools to 17 percent in "high" ranked schools.

4. Niemi, Ross, and Alexander, 1978
In elite schools, organized religion was judged important by only 26 percent of their students, compared with 44 percent of all students.


STUDIES OF VERY-HIGH IQ GROUPS

1. Terman, 1959
Studied group with IQ's over 140. Of men, 10 percent held strong religious belief, of women 18 percent. Sixty-two percent of men and 57 percent of women claimed "little religious inclination" while 28 percent of the men and 23 percent of the women claimed it was "not at all important."

2. Warren and Heist, 1960
Found no differences among National Merit Scholars. Results may have been effected by the fact that NM scholars are not selected on the basis of intelligence or grades alone, but also on "leadership" and such like.

3. Southern and Plant, 1968
Studied 42 male and 30 female members of Mensa. Mensa members were much less religious in belief than the typical American college alumnus or adult.


STUDIES Of SCIENTISTS

1. William S. Ament, 1927
C. C. Little, president of the University of Michigan, checked persons listed in Who's Who in America: "Unitarians, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Universalists, and Presbyterians [who are less religious] are… far more numerous in Who's Who than would be expected on the basis of the population which they form. Baptists, Methodists, and Catholics are distinctly less numerous."

Ament confirmed Little's conclusion. He noted that Unitarians, the least religious, were more than 40 times as numerous in Who's Who as in the U.S. population.

2. Lehman and Witty, 1931
Identified 1189 scientists found in both Who's Who (1927) and American Men of Science (1927). Only 25 percent of those listed in the latter and 50 percent of those in the former reported their religious denomination, despite the specific request to do so, under the heading of "religious denomination (if any)." Well over 90 percent of the general population claims religious affiliation. The figure of 25 percent suggests far less religiosity among scientists.

Unitarians were 81.4 times as numerous among eminent scientists as non-Unitarians.

3. Kelley and Fisk, 1951
Found a negative (-.39) correlation between the strength of religious values and research competence. [How these were measured is unknown.]

4. Ann Roe, 1953
Interviewed 64 "eminent scientists, nearly all members of the prestigious National Academy of Sciences or the American Philosophical Society. She reported that, while nearly all of them had religious parents and had attended Sunday school, 'now only three of these men are seriously active in church. A few others attend upon occasion, or even give some financial support to a church which they do not attend… All the others have long since dismissed religion as any guide to them, and the church plays no part in their lives… A few are militantly atheistic, but most are just not interested.'"

5. Francis Bello, 1954
Interviewed or questionnaired 107 nonindustrial scientists under the age of 40 judged by senior colleagues to be outstanding. Of the 87 responses, 45 percent claimed to be "agnostic or atheistic" and an additional 22 percent claimed no religious affiliation. For 20 most eminent, "the proportion who are now a-religious is considerably higher than in the entire survey group."

6. Jack Chambers, 1964
Questionnaired 740 US psychologists and chemists. He reported, "The highly creative men… significantly more often show either no preference for a particular religion or little or no interest in religion." Found that the most eminent psychologists showed 40 percent no preference, 16 percent for the most eminent chemists.

7. Vaughan, Smith, and Sjoberg, 1965
Polled 850 US physicists, zoologists, chemical engineers, and geologists listed in American Men of Science (1955) on church membership, and attendance patterns, and belief in afterlife. Of the 642 replies, 38.5 percent did not believe in an afterlife, whereas 31.8 percent did. Belief in immortality was less common among major university staff than among those employed by business, government, or minor universities. The Gallup poll taken about this time showed that two-thirds of the U.S. population believed in an afterlife, so scientists were far less religious than the typical adult.

DAMN!!! Now that was a long post! :D

"Humanity can hold the universe in it's palm, if we only learned to uncleanch our fists."

"Do unto others, as you would have them done unto you."

Regardless of what religion you follow... Or whatever belief or philosophy...

The result is ALWAYS the same... We are Human...

We breathe the same air, we fall in love, we bleed and we all die the same...

People that bash religion... or any belief system for that matter, can do so if they wish... I am certainly not going to stop them, for if they truly believe in what they choose to believe in... Then all the power to them...

I for one will not participate in religion bashing as you call it... For my own reasons...

One of them being because I am friends with people of various dieties...
My girlfriend is even a Pagan...
And as Roman Catholic Christian...I was always taught that my beliefs were mine alone...and should never expect others to embrace the same belief.

Even my atheist friends, they do from time to time try and prove that my belief is wrong and doesn't exist, as well as tell me that religion causes hate in this world... But I certainly do not take offense to it, after all... isn't everyone entitled to an opinion?

The key is tolerance... If you are secure enough in your OWN belief then whatever someone else believes shouldn't bother you or even come to mind...

To all of you...wherever your belief lies... I wish you good luck and fortune in your journey through life...

Mabye this generation may yet see the day when Humanity Unites under one banner....

And I dont see this person coming back here either. The most sick, perverted, evil, and wrong things have been done by CHRISTIANS alone. Im not even Christian anymore because of the appauling state of it. Between raping the altar boys and embezzlement, ughh, its disgusting.
That sort of thing goes on in every religion. I defy anyone to find one organized religion that doesn't have a few child molestation and embezzlement/theft scandals in it.

NOT all christians are saints but all athiests are assholes.
And because it's posted on NS it must be true.

Got any evidence to support that claim, Mr. Grammar?
There are more atheists among scientists in general than among the whole population. Among the world's elite scientists your are hard pressed to find any theists. Scientists tend to score higher on IQ tests than the general population.

There have been too many people who have replied to this thread that it would take forever to reply to everyone.

You guys have come across as extremely intolerant and to put it frankly-vile.
You obviously are intolerant of any kind of religion and a few of you have expressded a desire to rid the world of religion if you had the chance.

What I attempted to explain in my first post is that religion can be a good thing and it is not the source of world problems. Like so many of you are claiming it to be.

Also I did not attempt to convert anyone, I just used my example of how my involvement with Christianity had improved my life and I saw many positive thing happen to people as a result of religion.

Im sorry if anyone here posted has had bad experience with Religion or Christianity specifically but you didnt need to go off at me the way you did.
You went off on everyone who didn't share your beleifs. In short, you started a flame war. Describing people who don't agree with in such harsh terms is just rude and ignorant, and you can expect a counterattack whenever you shoot first.

there are naturally immoral people?

since when?

personality is a result of environment...
There are naturally immoral people. They are called sociopaths. Regardless of their environment they don't see other people as anything but tools to get what they want. Religion doesn't give them morality. They just use it to control those around them.

"Personality is a result of environment?" Partly perhaps, but mostly it's a result of organic brain function.

"Humanity can hold the universe in it's palm, if we only learned to uncleanch our fists."

Whose said this?

It is a fantastic quote. Graceful, clever, and very meaningful.

Thank you for it, Letora.

The author is unknown...

I'll happily tolerate religion... once it happily tolerates me.
Exactly. I really believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they like - Christians, Muslims, Buddhists - everyone. The problem is, many religious people (and in my personal experience, especially Christians) don't agree.

Most of my family are religious, and three in particular tried to convert me back to Christianity after I lost my faith some years back. I told them to stop; they were entitled to believe as they wished, but so was I. One of these people (my cousin) listened to me, a second hasn't been quite as bad since, but the third has never shut up. She may feel it's her 'moral duty' to try and make me see that her beliefs are right, but I believe it's everyone's moral duty to stay true to themselves. A lot (NOT all) of the Christians on these forums (and others) seem to agree with the point of view that you should tell people how to live and they will try with all their might to enforce their beliefs and opinions upon others. That's the problem I have with religion.

If you, like the cousin I mentioned above, practice and believe in your religion without trying to make everyone else do so, then I genuinely have every respect for you. If you try to tell others how to live, then I certainly do not.

I agree with you...

People who are secure in their own beliefs need not bother others...

Because Religion causes hate (Islam and Christianity anyway)

Hate against other religions, hate against women, hate against homosexuals

What's wrong with hating other religions? I don't hate women but I hate feminists and you seem to be one so I hate you. And what's wrong with hating butt fuckers? Gay people should be shot.

I think the problem is that most people, whether they mean to or not, have some sort of an anti-religious bias. If you look at the conflict between "Free Speech" and "Free Practice of Religion", as defined by the United States Constitution, they are not used today as they were meant to be. Today's interpretations are perversions of the original logic and beliefs of the Founding Fathers of America. They were highly religious and respectable men.

But it is true that religion causes hate...unconciously or conciously...

I know as a Roman Catholic people will generate hate towards me, saying that I'm an altar boy rapist, I hate gay people, or that I will basically burn anyone who doesn't share my belief... When in actuality that's wrong...
I have many friends who are of different dieties and beliefs...
My girlfriend is a Pagan...
And as well I have many friends who are homosexual or Bisexual...
As for the altar boy raping part....I can seriously say that it is wrong and the ones who commit that crime should be punished...regardless if they are in my own religion or not...

It's the assumption that gets most of us...whether someone assumes something of us or we assume something of them...

But I myself know where people are coming from when they assume something about me because of my religion... I know it must be insulting for an atheist to have to be exposed to religious things on TV...newspaper or whatever. Or having religious people constantly trying to convert them to their ways...Who can blame them?

Or a believer in the Islamic faith to have to be made fun of because he or she is now being labled as a Terrorist and that Christians are evil servents of the devil trying to destroy Islam and all it stands for... After the Crusades and the many current wars that have occured today...Who can blame them?

Why Christians who truly follow their beliefs and don't bother anyone feel cornered, pressured and discriminated... After the constant harrasment of people of other religions trying to prove them wrong and tear away at every fabric of their faith and sanity? After all that...who can really blame anyone?

We should all be satisfied in the fact that our beliefs in our own religion or philosophy are secure enough that we don't really need to worry about what the other person thinks... That we should be able to tolerate each other... After all... I breathe the same air as you do...Don't we?

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

Im a Christian myself but surely you've just totally contradicted yourself. you've just been self centred yourself in calling non religious people self centred. just let them believe in what they want, and you believe in what you want.

Religion is a good thing. People who don't belive that any religion could be valid cause all the hate towards it becuase:
they think anyone who follows one is stupid.

Religion is a good thing. People who don't belive that any religion could be valid cause all the hate towards it becuase:
they think anyone who follows one is stupid.

*cocks head sideways*

What?

*cocks head sideways*

What?


indeed.

There are nasty people of all faiths and backgrounds. There are nice people out there too... they're heavily outnumbered, but hey. that's ok. Life would be boring if everyone were nice.

Marx was mostly right- "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Not a narcotic, mind-stimulating addiction, but the best-known and most-effective painkiller of the day.
well, maybe a mind-stimulating addiction.

"Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!"

Not if I have anything to do with it...

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

being non-religious, it's annoying when religious people bash atheists! not that i'm saying that it's ok for it to happen the other way around...so leave eachother alone!

Arguing over religion, sort of just like arguing over who's got the best imaginary friend.

Hello Everyone!

It gets me down sometimes the amount of people around me who are constantly bashing Religion.
Some people seen to think that Religion is responsible for everything wrong in society.
I just cant see what the problem is?
I am a Christian and I can honestly say that Christians are probaly the nicest well meaning kindest people around. Non-religious people in general are self-centred, full of false pride, dont have time for other people, manipulative, argumentative, over-hard, greedy, uncaring,cowardly.

I know that a lot of wrong has been done in the name of religion. But so has even worse crimes been committed in the name of racial purity, Communism, Democracy etc...

Religion can be a wondeful thing when it takes the wayward soul and gives them meaning and direction in their lives and encourages them to turn from sinful ways into kinder, more compassionate and nicer people.
This is the things I have seen done happen.

Religion has been around forever and it will be around in the future whether you like it or not!

buhahahahahah...hahahahahah...hahahah *wipes tear* no realy what did u mean to say?

You have it turned around. Suffering leads to hate. Hate leads to anger. Anger leads to religion. Why do you think non-believers are supposed to burn in hell.
bah you all have it all wrong :p
belief a + belief b = confict. Not knowing how to handle conflict leads to anger and then you can even say anger leads to hatred. Anyway I wish we were all a little more sensible. --Sigh-- I hate it when I get angry... but I wasn't angry there ehehe, just said that so someone doesn't misinterperate that :)

I wonder what Christians most of the people in this thread have been hanging around. Some of you see the word religous or Christian and you seem to immediately think, "Oh noes! An incredibly arrogant extremist who's intolerant of all other beliefs and is going to try to convert me by telling me I'll go to hell if I don't!" Now, I'm a Christian, but I fully tolerate other beliefs (or lack of them). I don't try to convert my best friend, who happens to be atheist. I don't mind if someone is Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, whatever. I think they're wrong, mainly because Christ himself said that his way was the only way, but I don't hate them for it. I've read the Bible, part of the Qu'ran (rather hard to read, every few words it reminds you that it's the word of Allah), formulated my own opinions about them, and accepted Christianity. The only thing that really angers me is when people automatically lump people into a group, be they Christian, atheist, agnostic, anything.
did you read the first post on this thread?

that is what we are reacting to.

i know most christians are good people. most atheists are good people. most satanists are good people. most muslims are good people. i don't care. just don't go around saying that all people who don't believe in god are terrible people like the first poster in this thread did and i am fine with you.

most religion sucks ass, the fact that you would go and call atheists all that stuff that is f**ked up. i know alot of great atheists. also, satanism, i have to disagree with because that is just stupid. christianity is bad and then your going to worship the big evil guy from christianity. what the hell do you think can come of that. OOOOOh I worship satan so maybe he wont burn and flay me in hell because as a satanist you believe in hell. SATAN IS EVIL! WTF DOES HE CARE!

Before anyone assumes i am an atheist, im not. i believe you are reincarnated for a while and the you learn some lesson about life and you are really virtuous you become a God-like being and can create shit and destroy shit. no gods to worship in my religion.
:headbang:
i dont mean to offend anyone if i did. join me and my friends region, disciples of judas priest. we need some un people and anyone can come. we need more people. Judas Priest rocks.

There are naturally immoral people. They are called sociopaths. Regardless of their environment they don't see other people as anything but tools to get what they want. Religion doesn't give them morality. They just use it to control those around them.

"Personality is a result of environment?" Partly perhaps, but mostly it's a result of organic brain function.
i thought sociopaths were a result of environment.

they're the ones without empathy, right?

most religion sucks ass, the fact that you would go and call atheists all that stuff that is f**ked up. i know alot of great atheists. also, satanism, i have to disagree with because that is just stupid. christianity is bad and then your going to worship the big evil guy from christianity. what the hell do you think can come of that. OOOOOh I worship satan so maybe he wont burn and flay me in hell because as a satanist you believe in hell. SATAN IS EVIL! WTF DOES HE CARE!

no satanist actually worships satan.

learn about it a little more.

What's wrong with hating other religions? I don't hate women but I hate feminists and you seem to be one so I hate you. And what's wrong with hating butt fuckers? Gay people should be shot.
feminists believe that the sexes deserve equal treatment.

and if it's only "butt fuckers" you have a problem with, does that mean lesbians are ok?

I think the problem is that most people, whether they mean to or not, have some sort of an anti-religious bias. If you look at the conflict between "Free Speech" and "Free Practice of Religion", as defined by the United States Constitution, they are not used today as they were meant to be. Today's interpretations are perversions of the original logic and beliefs of the Founding Fathers of America. They were highly religious and respectable men.
was it ben franklin who cut up the bible, taking out the miracle parts?

yes, very traditionally religious. well done.

Where do church leaders fall in? priests … bishops … popes?

To me they fall in the middle ground because they are PART of the religion … and its interface with humanity as a whole.

What if they do wrong?

Or condone things like wars?

What if they actively push for one scenario or another that is evil?

How does that effect religion?

That doesnt. Religion is not a group of people (as some people make the mistake it is) It is a belief system. A Christian is not part of his religion, his religion is a part of him. Whatever individual believers may do has no concequence on the religion itself.

feminists believe that the sexes deserve equal treatment.

The problem a lot of people have with feminists these days is they continue to make their demands when in actual fact they have already been met. There is equal pay legislation in most of the Western world, Women have the vote, they have the right to be in whatever profession they want, they have the same rights as everyone else etc. What more do they want?

being non-religious, it's annoying when religious people bash atheists! not that i'm saying that it's ok for it to happen the other way around...so leave eachother alone!
Being a religious person, I completely agree.

The problem a lot of people have with feminists these days is they continue to make their demands when in actual fact they have already been met. There is equal pay legislation in most of the Western world, Women have the vote, they have the right to be in whatever profession they want, they have the same rights as everyone else etc. What more do they want?
where have you been?

women don't get paid the same as men. we are also denied opportunities to move up past a certain point (ever hear of the glass celing) women are held to different standards as men, if we are sexual beings, we are labeled sluts.

did you know there are only two professions where women earn more than men? prostitution and stripping.

I will repeat my comment from about religion. Christainity is imperfect because people are imperfect, however the bible is not about bashing other people in fact Jesus said love thy naighbor as you love your self and yes I am aware I probably spelled that wrong. Christianity is supposed to be about forgiveness, however it does get twisted by evil people, that being said religion is not the cause for conflict it is the excuse for conflict people who are after a war, or land, or resources will use religion as an excuse. To all those aitheist out there, everyone has to believe in something higher than themselves if you realy beilieve that there is nothing and no purpose to life you would not live, that said people who blindly follow anything piss me off I am still not certain of my own views, however it is my firm belief that Jesus is the Christ and he died to save us all and gave us the miracle of redemption that is what I believe because I choose to believe it because I believe in a benevolent God I know I have sinned many times I know I can be short sighted, narrow minded, judgmental, impatient, and abrasive, but everyday I try harder to improve myself. What does that have to do with religion only this Jesus also told us to look for our own sins before those of others. But if you want to point out all the excesses of Christianity I will point out those of Stalin, Ho chi Mihn and all the other aethist leaders who have comitted just as many if not more atrocities. As for those of you who are aithiest I will say one more thing belief in nothing is not a belief but a lack of one :)

K, im a christian so i agree don always dis us all the time but don go the other way either. i kno a lot of non religious people who are really nice people 2....

You seriously wonder why some atheists are like that? And no, not all of them are. The ones who are though... are like that because of people like you who give them horrible labels because they're "immoral". Christians aren't so great, ok? I will stop bashing religion when it stops bashing me.

I agree with the seperation of church and state and it was only my intention to state my beliefs take them or leave them. It was not my intention to bash anyone, however I do find it amusing and sad that most athiest blame their lack of belief on religious people I will admit that there are zealots on both sides of the fence stupidity, bigotry, and intolerance will never go out of style, however you should judge a religion on its merits, not its idiots.

i dont' judge religions based on the idiots.

hell, i don't really judge the idiots.

i don't believe in the christian interpretation of the world because i read the bible and found that i disagree. end of story. i don't care what other people say about it. i don't care what the christians say or do that offends me as a person. that's not why i don't believe in their particular version of events.

i'm not an atheist either.

On Christianity...

Jesus was a pretty cool guy and all, and if you listened to him your religion would be a whole not nicer. Unfortunatly, the church is based almost totally around PAUL'S writtings. That little shit.


Me? I'm spiritual. Not religious. I have too much faith to be religious. I'll let that one stew around with you all for a bit ;)

I wonder what Christians most of the people in this thread have been hanging around.

The ones I have been talking about are the very LOUD and obnoxious variety. sigh. Why is it that those people who are TRULY secure in their faith not a bully about it? And the ones who aren't, the ones who give faith a bad name?

" Now, I'm a Christian, but I fully tolerate other beliefs (or lack of them).

YIPPEE! And my rough guess would be that you are truly secure in your faith. ;)

The only thing that really angers me is when people automatically lump people into a group, be they Christian, atheist, agnostic, anything.

There are two kinds of people, those who place folks into groups and those that don't. :) But I know what you mean.

You guys have come across as extremely intolerant and to put it frankly-vile. You obviously are intolerant of any kind of religion and a few of you have expressed a desire to rid the world of religion if you had the chance.

And your first statements weren't? Pot, meet kettle; Kettle, Pot! You must be reading something in there that I, quite frankly am not seeing.

Also I did not attempt to convert anyone, I just used my example of how my involvement with Christianity had improved my life and I saw many positive thing happen to people as a result of religion.

Im sorry if anyone here posted has had bad experience with Religion or Christianity specifically but you didn't need to go off at me the way you did.

Respectfully, I disagree. You DID do a general slam. It may not have been your intention, but it is what I got out of your first post. At least in this response, I am sensing an attempt for clarification on your part. Even if the first part of it is, AGAIN, an insulting slam. A gentle answer would have been much wiser and more compassionate on your part.

I've heard enough of the Theist = automatically good and NonTheist = automatically evil and it gets old, real fast.

May I point out a few pertanent NT verses? (somewhat paraphrased.. :? :)

1 Peter 2:1 Avoid evil, malice, hypocrisy, and envy. Don't speak badly about others.

1 Peter 3:8 -11 Be compassionate and courteous. Don't seek revenge when you are harmed by another. Speak kindly of others. Do good and avoid evil.

1 John 3:18 Let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man."

I think you sort of missed the mark there. :O