NationStates Jolt Archive

I must say this because I have encountered many narrow minded Christians in my time and I have this to ask:

How can you be sure that you are right?

Let's think about it. There are about eight major religions

1. Judaism
2. Christianity
3. Islam
4. Hinduism
5. Buddhism
6. Taoism*
7. Confucianism*
8. Shintoism

* Based directly off philosophy

Not counting offsider cults, fusions and sects (such as Satanism, Jehova's Witnessess and Scientology). So out of eight major religions plus thousands of sects, hundreds that have been lost through time, how can you be sure? Especially those who belong to a specific church and don't generalise. It just intrigues me to know what drives you to think you are right 100% of the time concerning religion.

How can you be sure that you are right?

Gosh forbid anybody's wrong in the religious world! They're cut your heads off and feed you to the birds if you tell them they're wrong. Seriously, because, if they're wrong, then, that means God - whatever you call Him - doesn't exist, and that scares the living bejesus out of people.

"How can you be sure that you are right?"

I am quite stumped. It must be a matter of faith.

Gosh forbid anybody's wrong in the religious world! They're cut your heads off and feed you to the birds if you tell them they're wrong. Seriously, because, if they're wrong, then, that means God - whatever you call Him - doesn't exist, and that scares the living bejesus out of people.

*nod*

I must say this because I have encountered many narrow minded Christians in my time and I have this to ask:

How can you be sure that you are right?

Let's think about it. There are about eight major religions

1. Judaism
2. Christianity
3. Islam
4. Hinduism
5. Buddhism
6. Taoism*
7. Confucianism*
8. Shintoism

* Based directly off philosophy

Not counting offsider cults, fusions and sects (such as Satanism, Jehova's Witnessess and Scientology). So out of eight major religions plus thousands of sects, hundreds that have been lost through time, how can you be sure? Especially those who belong to a specific church and don't generalise. It just intrigues me to know what drives you to think you are right 100% of the time concerning religion.


Please add:
Atheism

and possibly:
Deism

As other major religous beliefs

Please add:
Atheism

and possibly:
Deism

As other major religous beliefs

Never heard of Deism and Atheism is the lack of religious belief.

It just intrigues me to know what drives you to think you are right 100% of the time concerning religion.
Faith. And, in some cases, propagandical brainwashing.

I must say this because I have encountered many narrow minded Christians in my time and I have this to ask:

How can you be sure that you are right?

I just have to ask you a question in return:

Why are you bothering with the narrow minded Christians? Why bother with the worst portion of Christians while ignoring the rest?

I just have to ask you a question in return:

Why are you bothering with the narrow minded Christians? Why bother with the worst portion of Christians while ignoring the rest?
Probably because they're the most likely to insist on being 100% right. More liberal members usually give some degree of leeway.

First off, i have met many narrow-minded non-Christians so don't use such a broad brush to paint us all with.
Now your question, when I was a small boy, I asked my mother the same question. She told me that when I accepted Christ as my Savior I would know that I was right, because I would feel it in my heart. A few years later when I was old enough to understand, I did accept Christ. And I did feel the change in my heart. It is a matter of faith.
I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.

Probably because they're the most likely to insist on being 100% right. More liberal members usually give some degree of leeway.

Eh. True enough. I just try to maintain the ideal that something can be learned here. The trade of information and whatnot. Calling out those kinds of people just doesn't seem to accomplish anything apart from rattling someone's cage. They won't say anything useful, and you sure as hell won't convince them of anything. They're 100% right, after all.

First off, i have met many narrow-minded non-Christians so don't use such a broad brush to paint us all with.
Now your question, when I was a small boy, I asked my mother the same question. She told me that when I accepted Christ as my Savior I would know that I was right, because I would feel it in my heart. A few years later when I was old enough to understand, I did accept Christ. And I did feel the change in my heart. It is a matter of faith.
I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.

You are ignoring my point. There is more than one alternative than just Atheism and straight Christianity. Hundreds of thousands to choose from. No clear cut alternative. I think I understand about faith but I don't understand how faith comes about...

I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.
Pascal's wager? In 2004? You'd think you'd know better by now. Someone following a religion only out of fear of punishment isn't really following it, inneh? Of course, if there are no gods, when you die, you will have lost plenty, as your courses of action will have cut off many paths that would otherwise have been available.

I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.

Does this mean you only "believe" in Jesus to hedge your bets? You're taking the better odds, rather than what you think is right? It sounds like you don't actualy believe, you just obsiquiously agree, just to be safe. I've always had a problem with religions that use the fear of hell as the motive for joining them. Most of the major religions are all about selflessness if you really get down to it, but most people are involved because of the selfish desire to avoid hell.

Who's seen Clockwork Orange? "Good has to be chosen."

Does this mean you only "believe" in Jesus to hedge your bets? You're taking the better odds, rather than what you think is right? It sounds like you don't actualy believe, you just obsiquiously agree, just to be safe. I've always had a problem with religions that use the fear of hell as the motive for joining them. Most of the major religions are all about selflessness if you really get down to it, but most people are involved because of the selfish desire to avoid hell.

Groan. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Religions aren't selfish by nature! You're not supposed to worship The Lord just because you're hedging your bets! Good people don't do good deed because they fear hell, nor do they do good works because "God told them to". It's deeper than that, and the faithful can be the least selfish people you'll ever meet.

That was my point excatly. Real believers do good TO do good. There are too many fakers out there who do good to avoind being punished

I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.

I suppose it is merely a matter of belief - you can't prove that God (or whatever) exists just as you can't disprove the same phenomenon.
Personally, I don't believe in anything - Athiest/Agnostic - so your point doesnt matter to my beliefs either - it assumes that I believe in "the soul" just as you do (and also that the 'soul' exists). I don't believe in the soul - i think, somewhat morbidly, that when I die I'm going to rot in the ground and stink the place up plenty ;)

But also, as a counterpoint, if you are wrong (and im not saying you are...) then I've lead a free life doing practically whatever I want (yes I drink and use (some) drugs; I have fun), while you may have pointlessly followed a useless doctrine and restricted your life for nothing.
Then agian I wholeheartedly agree with many of the positive ethical and moral arguements that the major religons espouse. Even if one doesn't believe in any religion one should follow these ethical guidelines, IMO. Perhaps this is the reason for - the point of - organised religion?

That was my point excatly. Real believers do good TO do good. There are too many fakers out there who do good to avoind being punished

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Gosh forbid anybody's wrong in the religious world! They're cut your heads off and feed you to the birds if you tell them they're wrong. Seriously, because, if they're wrong, then, that means God - whatever you call Him - doesn't exist, and that scares the living bejesus out of people.

It does not mean God does not exist. They could be right about God, just wrong about something else. And, even if they are wrong about their God existing, other gods or a different God could still exist.

If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.
If there is indeed a creator, and this being would punish me for failing to accept a particular religious denomination despite the absence of proof of its validity, I have no desire for my "soul"'s continued existence and certainly would not acquiesce to such a being merely to escape eternal damnation.

That being said, I have no quarrel with any belief system, no matter how bizarre (atheist here), as long as it is not imposed upon me. Yay, freedom of worship and non-worship? I have encountered both open and close-minded people of many different ideologies.

Never heard of Deism and Atheism is the lack of religious belief.


Atheism is not a lack of religous belief. Atheism is the belief there are no gods. This makes it a strongly held religious belief.


An agnostic lacks religious belief and does not care.



Deism is belief in an unrevealed God. That is you believe in God but do not think the bible/torah/koran represents the true god. Seeing the God in everything sunsets, trees, all of creation - not written down in a book by some man.

If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.


Actually, my immortal soul will keep on keepin' on, just in eternal hellfire with the rest of the free thinkers. :D

And any God who will damn me for eternity solely for not accepting Jesus as my savior just isn't a God I can accept. Besides, I've asked Jesus to save me. Didn't work. Same crappy job, same crappy life, haven't won the lottery. Nothing.

Atheism is not a lack of religous belief. Atheism is the belief there are no gods. This makes it a strongly held religious belief.


An agnostic lacks religious belief and does not care.



Deism is belief in an unrevealed God. That is you believe in God but do not think the bible/torah/koran represents the true god. Seeing the God in everything sunsets, trees, all of creation - not written down in a book by some man.

Let me refine this.

An atheist believes there is not a God or gods.

An agnostic does care! An agnostic believes you cannot prove God (or gods) exist nor can you prove they do not exist. Please do not say that we do not care, because I for one do.

A deist is one who believes there is a higher power but knows nothing about it. Deist is one that I am more unfamiliar with a technical definition of, but the person that I quoted said some true things. A deist believes there is a God or gods that does not interact with humans, just that there is one somewhere.

A theist believes there is a God or god. You can further classify them as "polytheists" and "monotheists." I assume you can understand what each of those are.

Atheism is not a lack of religous belief. Atheism is the belief there are no gods. This makes it a strongly held religious belief.
Not necessarily. I can have a- (without) -theism (belief) and still acknowledge that, being somewhat less than omniscient, I may well be in error in my lack of belief.

Not necessarily. I can have a- (without) -theism (belief) and still acknowledge that, being somewhat less than omniscient, I may well be in error in my lack of belief.

I would say that atheism is not necessarily a lack of religious belief. One can be buddhist or a Satanist and be an atheist. Those are just two examples.

An atheist simply believes there is no God or gods. Yes, any intelligent person also knows that he or she could be wrong. So an atheist could believe that he or she could be incorrect and still be as atheist as the person next to them who thought him or herself was completely correct.

I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.

Ah, Pascal's wager. OK, let's break this down. There are 5 main possibilities:

1 Your God exists and punishes with eternal torment all those who oppose Him
2 Your God exists but does not punish with eternal torment all those who oppose him
3 Another God/Gods exist(s) and punishes with eternal torment all those who oppose Him/Them
4 Another God/Gods exist(s) but do(es) not punish with eternal torment all those who oppose Him/Them
5 No God or Gods exists.

Given that I am an atheist:
In option 1 you are better off than I
In option 2 we are equally well off
In option 3 we are both as badly off
In option 4 we are equally well off
In option 5 there is no well or badly off

Now the above 5 options only consider the benefit/loss from the perspective of the afterlife. One must also consider, however, the benefit of a life lived according to one's own rules. Of course, one could argue that a religious life is inherantly happier but I don't buy it. Under option 3 you've basically wasted your life, but since you can possibly enjoy whatever (probably infinite) benefits that accrue with a benevolent God it doesn't matter.

If said God doesn't bestow infinite benefits then you're in the same position as number 5, you've wasted your life which was the only one you had. You've essentially wasted everything. You may argue that you haven't wasted your life but consider this, if your God doesn't exist and you are made aware of this fact would you lead your life in exactly the same manner as now?

So, we have 3 scenarios where we are equally well off, 1 where you are better off and one (number 5) where I am better off. You could argue that since under option 1 you are better off in the sense that you enjoy infinite bliss while I suffer infinite torment then you are better off overall. However, since under option 5 we only have our life then that, from our perspective, is equally infinite and so the argument is moot.

Finally since Pascal's wager is esentially probabilistic, then let's look at the probability. I'm taking, as Pascal did, the existence of God to be an arbritrary 50/50 probability and the probability of a punishing/non punishing God as equally 50/50. It also depends on the number of differing deistic religions and sects in existence now and historically, I'm using a (probably conservative) figure of 2,000 (apologies for any crappy maths):

Option 1: (0.5*0.5)/2000 = 0.000125
Option 2: (0.5*0.5)/2000 = 0.000125
Option 3: ((0.5*0.5)/2000)*1999 = 0.249875
Option 4: ((0.5*0.5)/2000)*1999 = 0.249875
Option 5: 0.5

So, there's a 0.000125 probability of you being better off, a 0.499875
probability of us being equally well off and a 0.5 probability of me being better off.

Can we put Pascal's wager to bed now?

EDIT: I forgot to include the possibility that in 2 and 4 the God/Gods in question save those who believe in other Gods but punish atheists. It's possible but is hard to argue convincingly, so I don't think it counters the basic assumptions of this argument.

On the whole, if pressed for an answer, if a single prime mover existed, I believe the Muslims got it right. They seem to be rather in tune with the idea of a godhead without having to rely on 613 laws or having to rely on a god-become-flesh - which, according to Moses, would never happen in the first place, but Christians tend to ignore all of that important Biblical stuff.

Being a religion, though, Islam still has its infighting over interpretations of liturgy, but they seem to be doing ok in spite of it all. I could be wrong, but I can't recall ever hearing about one group of Muslims saying another group of Muslims were going to "Hell" for not following a few passages of Koran the way they think the other should. Christians practically come to blows over such things and Judaism has become so secular, it may as well just abolish Torah completely and get on with life.

However, as a very devoted Pagan, I'm pretty sure the forces of nature run the universe just fine without our help. God? Meh ... God is genetic.

#23 Okay some agnostics care - please accept my apology.


Some agnostics are the undecided voters of religion (caring about the outcome but unsure which way to jump) and some are the apathetic voters (like me - who will probably be almost getting around to thinking about it when they lower my coffin into the grave).

I think people, especially in the 'western' world assume religions are all isolated ideas, and the closest they get to reconciling differences is the phrase 'Judeo-Christian' :rolleyes: Religions are connected a heck of a lot more than people think. Christianity and Islam both have roots in Judaism, but what a lot of people don't know is that Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, which was in turn descended from an Iranian version of Hinduism. And theres even strong evidence of concurance between Hinduism and the pre-Christian religions of Europe, such as the Norse faith: the Gods in old Norse were known as the 'Aesir', wheras there are a group of demons in Hinduism known as the 'Asura'. Things are a lot more interconnected than people like to admit.

I would say that atheism is not necessarily a lack of religious belief. One can be buddhist or a Satanist and be an atheist. Those are just two examples.

An atheist simply believes there is no God or gods. Yes, any intelligent person also knows that he or she could be wrong. So an atheist could believe that he or she could be incorrect and still be as atheist as the person next to them who thought him or herself was completely correct.


You cannot be a Satanist, worship Satan as your god and be an atheist.

I think you are confusing atheists who believe no gods exist. With the larger community of everybody outside your church that think your God is baloney.

There are indeed some hypocritical Christians out there no dount but there are some very good ones.
I am a Christianand became on about 7 months ago. I got Baptised recently and I can say it was one of the greatest experiences in my life.
I havent asked God for a lottory win or a ferrari instead I have asked Jesus to help change me into a better human being and live out my life in the way he wants as he has a purpose for my life.
I can also say that I have seen some amazing things that you wouldnt believe since I became a Christian. At my Church there is a guy there who was in jail for murder in fact he killed a lot of people but he became a Christian in Prison and now runs his own evangelistic organisation.
At Church this sunday we watched a video about a Christian organisation called Prison Fellowship. They worked in Rwanda where there has been a Genocide about 10 years ago. Many people lost their family members and children wives etc...
This tribe was about 10,000 people string and most of them were in caught. The government didnt have the funds to keep all of them in Prison forever.
So what this PF did was get members of the victims tribe together with prisoners. There was one man who had lost his only child and he stood opposite the man had killed his child. The minister encouraged the two groups to reconcile and forgive each other. The man who lost his child told the killer that he forgave him and they then hugged each other.
Pretty amazing really.

It makes me sad sometimes when I see people like th Author of this Thread who seen to be so angry at Religion instead of trying to recognise that Religion can do many positive things as well.
No-one is forcing Religion on you and if you dont like a religion then dont listen to it.
Organised Religion has been around for ever and will be around in the future for a long time as well. Get used to it.

#23 Okay some agnostics care - please accept my apology.

Wait, so now I am just a number? (I really do not care and just felt like saying that like I did) And apology accepted, even though I really see not why one was needed. Moving on...


Some agnostics are the undecided voters of religion (caring about the outcome but unsure which way to jump) and some are the apathetic voters (like me - who will probably be almost getting around to thinking about it when they lower my coffin into the grave).

I do not consider those who are "undecided" to be agnostic. I think agnostics are decided, just have decided they cannot go either way. There is a difference. I believe those who are undecided are simply none-of-the-above and those who do not care are simply apathetic.

You cannot be a Satanist, worship Satan as your god and be an atheist.

I think you are confusing atheists who believe no gods exist. With the larger community of everybody outside your church that think your God is baloney.

I am not confused at all. I have researched Satanism more than anyone I know. I was even a Satanist at one time. Go here (www.churchofsatan.com) to read more on Satanism.

But in brief, Satanists do not believe in a physical Satan. They believe Satan represents humans inner carnal desires. Satan is not a "god," but merely a force of ones wants rather than needs. To a typical Satanist, one's self is his or her own God. But that does differ from Satanist to Satanist, depending on their defintion of what "Satan" is. From what I got out of it, Satan represents one's desires and lusts, but is not a physical nor spiritual being. Therefore, one can be a Satanist and an atheist.

Being a religion, though, Islam still has its infighting over interpretations of liturgy, but they seem to be doing ok in spite of it all. I could be wrong, but I can't recall ever hearing about one group of Muslims saying another group of Muslims were going to "Hell" for not following a few passages of Koran the way they think the other should. Christians practically come to blows over such things and Judaism has become so secular, it may as well just abolish Torah completely and get on with life.


Last time I checked the Sunnis and the Shi'ites weren't exactly holding hands and reciting verses together.

Not necessarily. I can have a- (without) -theism (belief) and still acknowledge that, being somewhat less than omniscient, I may well be in error in my lack of belief.

Can you be Christian and still acknowledge that Jesus may just have been a mortal man who was hyped up by Paul and some friends so they could get rich conning the Romans into supporting a new church?

Last time I checked the Sunnis and the Shi'ites weren't exactly holding hands and reciting verses together.

No ... but you'll notice they're not shooting at each other either.

The only real difference between the two groups is that the Shi'ites are followers of Ali, the Prophet's chosen successor, and the Sunnis follow Abu, the elected successor. Ali conceded for the sake of unity.

Sunnis do tend to be more liberal, but both groups follow the same Koran.

The only other real difference is that Shiites created the office of the "Imam" ("leader" or "guide"), who were infallible, one for each generation, the only source of religious instruction and guidance, and all in direct descendence of Ali. There were 12 Imams since Ali; the last one, the 12th, went into hiding in 940, and he will emerge later to rule the world as "Mahdi" ("Messiah"). (I may be off in my study of them, though, but they are a relatively small group)

I am not confused at all. I have researched Satanism more than anyone I know. I was even a Satanist at one time. Go here (www.churchofsatan.com) to read more on Satanism.

But in brief, Satanists do not believe in a physical Satan. They believe Satan represents humans inner carnal desires. Satan is not a "god," but merely a force of ones wants rather than needs. To a typical Satanist, one's self is his or her own God. But that does differ from Satanist to Satanist, depending on their defintion of what "Satan" is. From what I got out of it, Satan represents one's desires and lusts, but is not a physical nor spiritual being. Therefore, one can be a Satanist and an atheist.

Okay two apologies to the same person in an hour. Bugger.

My confusion.

Satan is a lesser god in the Christian faith (and to all Christians reading this - immortal + constant = god and I am out of apologies).

Okay two apologies to the same person in an hour. Bugger.

My confusion.

Satan is a lesser god in the Christian faith (and to all Christians reading this - immortal + constant = god and I am out of apologies).

On your behalf, there are Satanist cults that worship Satan, as defined in the Bible. But the Church of Satan (the religion) does not believe there to be a Satan as defined in the Bible.

Anyways...I should be off to bed soon...but I do not want to do this. :(

I must say this because I have encountered many narrow minded Christians in my time and I have this to ask:

How can you be sure that you are right?

Let's think about it. There are about eight major religions

1. Judaism
2. Christianity
3. Islam
4. Hinduism
5. Buddhism
6. Taoism*
7. Confucianism*
8. Shintoism

* Based directly off philosophy

Not counting offsider cults, fusions and sects (such as Satanism, Jehova's Witnessess and Scientology). So out of eight major religions plus thousands of sects, hundreds that have been lost through time, how can you be sure? Especially those who belong to a specific church and don't generalise. It just intrigues me to know what drives you to think you are right 100% of the time concerning religion.

Well.. From some of the more insistant people I've talked to (Not just Christians, but Catholics, Mormons, etc.), a lot of them seem to describe some powerful emotional experience, a feeling in the heart. Which is odd, because that's exactly the feeling I experienced when I felt I had solidified MY beliefs.

I'm beginning to think this idea of a belief gene isn't too far off. :F Aside, I think it depends on the Christian. For some its emotional, for others they've just been raised that way, and yet others are just stubborn bastards.

You cannot be a Satanist, worship Satan as your god and be an atheist.



You can be a satanist without beliving in Satan as a god (read Lavey: The Satanic Bible). There are however satanist who belive in Satan as a god, but Lavey talked about Satan as a principle, a set of rules, not as a god to be worshiped.

So yes, you can be a satanist, and be an atheist.

Can you be Christian and still acknowledge that Jesus may just have been a mortal man who was hyped up by Paul and some friends so they could get rich conning the Romans into supporting a new church?
You should meet my mum. She's the only one I've ever met, though. I am sure some would refute her classification as a Christian.

I have positions on a variety of moral/ethical issues that I do not consider to be "strongly held," because I can see the other side of the fence and acknowledge my fallibility.

Well.. From some of the more insistant people I've talked to (Not just Christians, but Catholics, Mormons, etc.), a lot of them seem to describe some powerful emotional experience, a feeling in the heart. Which is odd, because that's exactly the feeling I experienced when I felt I had solidified MY beliefs.

I actually brought that point up in a philosophy class and the professor said "Good argument."

I felt the same thing when I was a communist. I would see things concerning Lenin or communism as a whole and I got the feeling you talk about.

I also felt this when I was a Christian...

Socialist...

Satanist...

Atheist...

Wow, seeing a trend here besides me changing views...

(before you say I cannot make up my mind, I consider this maturing and evolution of thought. I had those believes back when I was still a minor. Now that I am legal adult I am agnostic, liberal socially, but not leftist in any way, and moderate economically. So I have "calmed down" and am rather skeptical of any teen who is radical in any way.)

I read a book called Snow Crash, lots of good research for a fiction book, referances and every thing. Anyway, one point in this book was that Christians basically labled any god that wasn't their own as Satan, thus, anyone worshiping a pegan god, the Hindi gods or any tribal religion was, to the Christians, worshiping Satan. Mostly it was a good recurting tactic.
PS I'd recomend Snow Crash for those that like sci-fi adventure pieces with plenty of thinking involved.

Anybody that is worried about religion has no reason to. Give it ten or twenty years and it will be just a annoyence. The new generation (which are the people born in early 80's and early 90's) dosen't believe in a god. They think it is foolish and childish to believe that a invisible person run's everything. Atheism is on the rise and no religion in the world can stop it cause Atheism is base on fact. Things that can be tested and actually seen. I can use a microscope to see a cell. I can't use anything to see a god. So have no fear of religion as it is out dated and old fashioned.

P.S. Although I hate religion and it has done terrible things to people it has done some good.

Atheism is on the rise and no religion in the world can stop it cause Atheism is base on fact.

Atheism is based on fact? I would have to disagree completely! I see no fact that can disprove the existence of a God or gods. If there is one, please show me.

Atheism is on the rise and no religion in the world can stop it cause Atheism is base on fact.
Well. In America, atheism is rising fast, along with Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Wicca. Catholic immigration from Central and South America slows the trend though.

Here's a fascinating survey done from 1990 to 2001 on religious trends on America. http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/key_findings.htm

Christianity dropped from 86 to 77% over those eleven years. "No religion" rose from 8 to 14%. Catholicism and Mormonism are the only two Christian religions actually growing in number in America, but slower than the actual rate of population growth. Jews (by faith) and Protestants are actually losing in their total number of members.

Worldwide however, Islam is taking over.

Evolution is proof enough. It is fact and it defied everything the church said up to then. Since then church adapted to it and said god made evolution. They knew they couldn't deny evolution cause there is proof of evolution. Now you show me proof a god!

Evolution is proof enough. It is fact and it defied everything the church said up to then. Since then church adapted to it and said god made evolution. They knew they couldn't deny evolution cause there is proof of evolution. Now you show me proof a god!
Okay, you have proof that evolution is real- I'll ignore the gaps Cuvier and Lamarck and even Darwin brought up- but that just proves that Catholic Church policy was wrong. That doesn't say a thing about the existence of God.

I don't believe in God.I always do good.At my funeral the priest told the congregation that I was a non-believer yet said that I was a great man who always did good so it was without doubt that I would go to heaven.In any event I took a wrong turn at the round-a bout and ended up at reincarnation.So here I am.I don't think there is a God still,just a round-a-bout and a long road.Hope I have helped,seeing as how I've been there and all that malarky.

I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing.

Wrong. You have lost everything. You have spent all you have and all you will ever have in devotion to something that does not exist. If you cast your life trying to be the good christian and never question what life may be about you have given up on everything.

Live life, question life, learn from life, because after you are dead those three are no longer options.

We have a fact which is evolution and a theory which is the big bang theory. What do you guys got to prove there is a god?

Live life, question life, learn from life, because after you are dead those three are no longer options.

Did you make that up? If not please tell who did cause that is a great philosophy on life and a good quote.

We have a fact which is evolution and a theory which is the big bang theory. What do you guys got to prove there is a god?
What do you have to prove that there isn't? The theory (yes, it's still a theory) of Evolution dictates that life gradually changed until it got to the points it's at today. The Big Bang theory suggests that at one point, all the mass in the universe was concentrated in a very small point. Neither of those say a thing about God.

Did you make that up? If not please tell who did cause that is a great philosophy on life and a good quote.

That is a Vittos Original. Registered trademark.

What do you have to prove that there isn't? The theory (yes, it's still a theory) of Evolution dictates that life gradually changed until it got to the points it's at today. The Big Bang theory suggests that at one point, all the mass in the universe was concentrated in a very small point. Neither of those say a thing about God.

That is the trouble with God and belief in God. There is no way to question your belief, as there is no issue that can't be explained away with God.

Anybody that is worried about religion has no reason to. Give it ten or twenty years and it will be just a annoyence. The new generation (which are the people born in early 80's and early 90's) dosen't believe in a god. They think it is foolish and childish to believe that a invisible person run's everything.

Meh. The new generation has always been less religious than the last. 'Course, when they have a mortgage, grandkids and a prostate exam coming up perceptions tend to change...

An agnostic does care! An agnostic believes you cannot prove God (or gods) exist nor can you prove they do not exist.

As do many atheists and theists. The difference is that agnostics (genreally) believe that they cannot justify a belief either way due to this fact and so don't maintain one.

I am not confused at all. I have researched Satanism more than anyone I know. I was even a Satanist at one time. Go here (www.churchofsatan.com) to read more on Satanism.

But in brief, Satanists do not believe in a physical Satan. They believe Satan represents humans inner carnal desires. Satan is not a "god," but merely a force of ones wants rather than needs. To a typical Satanist, one's self is his or her own God. But that does differ from Satanist to Satanist, depending on their defintion of what "Satan" is. From what I got out of it, Satan represents one's desires and lusts, but is not a physical nor spiritual being. Therefore, one can be a Satanist and an atheist.

Satanism is a branch of Christianity.

I am not confused at all. I have researched Satanism more than anyone I know. I was even a Satanist at one time. Go here (www.churchofsatan.com) to read more on Satanism.

But in brief, Satanists do not believe in a physical Satan. They believe Satan represents humans inner carnal desires. Satan is not a "god," but merely a force of ones wants rather than needs. To a typical Satanist, one's self is his or her own God. But that does differ from Satanist to Satanist, depending on their defintion of what "Satan" is. From what I got out of it, Satan represents one's desires and lusts, but is not a physical nor spiritual being. Therefore, one can be a Satanist and an atheist.

That is a strange religion.

I don't think they can be legitimately termed "Satanists" if they don't believe in Satan.

First off, i have met many narrow-minded non-Christians so don't use such a broad brush to paint us all with.
Now your question, when I was a small boy, I asked my mother the same question. She told me that when I accepted Christ as my Savior I would know that I was right, because I would feel it in my heart. A few years later when I was old enough to understand, I did accept Christ. And I did feel the change in my heart. It is a matter of faith.
I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.
unless, and i believe this was the original posters point, GOD turns out be SHIVA and i just get a really crappy re-incarnation. you have placed your bet on ONE possible theory of god. maybe you made a bad bet, eh?

Satanism is a branch of Christianity.

Is it? I thought Satanism is probably described as a religion of 'humanism'.

But I for one disagree that it should be called Satanism. It's as if they named their religion (not really a religion either.. anyhooo) to piss of christians. :D

Is it? I thought Satanism is probably described as a religion of 'humanism'.

But I for one disagree that it should be called Satanism. It's as if they named their religion (not really a religion either.. anyhooo) to piss of christians. :D

If thats the case than I'm all for that name. Stir up the christians a bit, get 'em of the gay's collective back.

First off, i have met many narrow-minded non-Christians so don't use such a broad brush to paint us all with.
Now your question, when I was a small boy, I asked my mother the same question. She told me that when I accepted Christ as my Savior I would know that I was right, because I would feel it in my heart. A few years later when I was old enough to understand, I did accept Christ. And I did feel the change in my heart. It is a matter of faith.

so when someone becomes a buddhist and feels a change in their hearts, the change they feel is wrong?

I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.

pascal's wager rears its ugly head.

you seemed to ignore the first post in this thread. please revisit it.

Eventualy everyone takes something on faith, and while the churches have committed many attrocities, that is to be expected as even the most devout of people are only human, and all of us are fallible, that is the beatuy of Christanity, that all have fallen short of the glory of the father, but we are forgiven any way, that is the diffrence between Christianity and any other religion the idea of redemption and salvation no other religion has that, oh and if you think Islam is perfect they have comitted just as many attrocities on themselves and others for cases in point read Taliban, Ottman Turks, and Iran. Thats my two and half cents, oh and all those things like drugs that some of you consider fun, just remeber when you die you will be remebered by your actions and it does not matter how much fun you had but what you did with your life .

Satanism is a branch of Christianity.

Please research Satanism before you classify the religion. The religion of Satanism does not have anything to do with the Christian Satan. Lots of Satanic cults do worship the Christian Satan, but they are not a religion.

www.churchofsatan.com

Thats my two and half cents, oh and all those things like drugs that some of you consider fun, just remeber when you die you will be remebered by your actions and it does not matter how much fun you had but what you did with your life .

says who?

my bf remembers his brother for all the fun they had together, not for what he did in his life.

believe me, people remember the fun as much if not more than the accomplishments.

What is fun to you? Is it getting drunk with your friends in wild parties? Or discovering that you have more than just your five senses I can't even describe in the english language after surfing the ocean one day? Fun could be anything. What is so narrow-minded about believing in Jesus Christ and His promises?

Some people have gripes about organised religion...

However, I see it as having a positive, especially now in the modern world. This is my take on it...
In Iraq, right now, we have a lot of clerics and other 'religious authorities' spouting off their own interpretations of the Koran to justify holy war and jihad against a variety of heathens and heretics. Sunni Islam, since the fall of the Caliph, has no real authority to once and for all dispute these ideologies within Sunnism.
Now with the Catholic Church, I see the Pope as having an important function as a central authority. Vatican II did a lot to buck up the Church: would such a modernising view have been instituted without a strong central authority? And more importantly, they have a way of controlling and condemning ideologies of hate within the Catholic Church by defining what Catholics should and should not do. Also, the Pope is leading the way forward in trying to heal the ideological/authoritative divides that caused the Great Schism nearly a thousand years ago. Would Christians en masse do this of their own accord?

Granted, many see the Catholic Church as a retarding factor, what with its views on contraception and abortion, but I came across this idea on another forum:
-If the Church sticks to principles, it is declared outdated, fuddy-duddy and out of touch with the world, and therefore a retarding factor.
-If the Church decides to change its views to keep in touch with modern views of the majority of the population, it is condemned as having no principles, and trying to win a popularity contest by caving in to modernists.
So it's tricky for the Catholic Church.

And quite frankly, all those who reject religion on the basis that 'it has been used to promote hatred', yes that is true (taking the Catholic Church for example), but other factors are involved such as greed, political gain and personal reasons. The Church has been manipulated by outsiders as well for their own gain.
Every organisation has had its bad apples, but since Vatican II, the Church is at least taking a step forward.

That is the trouble with God and belief in God. There is no way to question your belief, as there is no issue that can't be explained away with God.

Convenient, isn't it? Almost as if there was a God...

I just have to ask you a question in return:

Why are you bothering with the narrow minded Christians? Why bother with the worst portion of Christians while ignoring the rest?

Because this is the best way he could think of to make himself feel superior to other people. Rather than address the majority of christians, he goes for the small minority of fanatics. Makes sense, if you are fishing for points.

Regardless of what religion we follow... What belief we carry... What we must realize that we are all human beings...

We all carry a hope, a dream, a belief...

Wether we believe it as gift bestowed upon us by God, Allah or any higher diety...or through the miracle of science...

The thing we fail to see is the common result...us...

I am a Roman Catholic Christian... I believe in God and that his son was Jesus Christ...our lord and savior...

But my beliefs should not affect anyone else... It is only when us as a people try and impose our beliefs on others is where we fail...

My religion made numerous mistakes... The Inquisition being a major one...
Muslims during the Islamic Conquest...
And various other religions have all made in the past the mistake of trying to impose their beliefs on others...even the Atheists...who believe in no diety make that mistake as well by trying to censor religious things...

But it's from those mistakes that we learn... And I have learned that my beliefs are my own buisness and the beliefs of others should not affect me...

I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim and my girlfriend is even Pagan...

I know that my belief is right in my own heart...
My friends know that their belief is right in theirs...
And I will never question that...

The golden rule of everyone has and always will be..."Do onto others...and as you would have them do onto you..."

To all of you...wherever your belief lies...I wish you good luck to wherever it takes you...

And that we as a race will come togather again...

I must say this because I have encountered many narrow minded Christians in my time and I have this to ask:

How can you be sure that you are right?

Let's think about it. There are about eight major religions

1. Judaism
2. Christianity
3. Islam
4. Hinduism
5. Buddhism
6. Taoism*
7. Confucianism*
8. Shintoism



You forgot Jedi.

You have to make a sdie note and inculde Athesim or the Non-belivers.

Shows the Equality of the Universe and its a major "religion".

The fact is no matter what lie you want to follow its your decision.

Just a note that christians should get Stronger LSD cause i don't think you seeing your god. ;)

First off, i have met many narrow-minded non-Christians so don't use such a broad brush to paint us all with.
Now your question, when I was a small boy, I asked my mother the same question. She told me that when I accepted Christ as my Savior I would know that I was right, because I would feel it in my heart. A few years later when I was old enough to understand, I did accept Christ. And I did feel the change in my heart. It is a matter of faith.
I have one question for you. If I am wrong and there is no God and no heaven and no hell, when I die, what have I lost.....nothing. If I am right and there is a God and a heaven and more importantly a hell, when you die, what have you lost....your immortal soul.

Your ability to think for yourself... the possible friendship of all the people you may have ticked off by insisting that you're right and they're wrong and they're going to hell... depending on other the possible correct beliefs of other religions, maybe YOUR immortal soul... there are several things you could have lost. Of course, I don't know you so I don't know that you've actually lost any of that. There are things that people lose to every religion. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe what you do, but you shouldn't try to tell the rest of us we should too.

I must say this because I have encountered many narrow minded Christians in my time and I have this to ask:

How can you be sure that you are right?

Let's think about it. There are about eight major religions

1. Judaism
2. Christianity
3. Islam
4. Hinduism
5. Buddhism
6. Taoism*
7. Confucianism*
8. Shintoism
Especially those who belong to a specific church and don't generalise. It just intrigues me to know what drives you to think you are right 100% of the time concerning religion.
Because I've taken the time to check. Running through:
1. Judaism. This religion is true. The OT prophecies have repeatedly come true - to the level of getting not only the year, but even the month and day of the liberation of Jerusalem correct. the failure of the Jews to recognise the Messiah was predicted by a number of prophets.

2. Christianity. Again, true. Much of what is said about Christianity isn't, and Christians seem incapable of learning the (very basic) lessons God is continually teaching us. All this shows is that Original Sin is true, and that we need Jesus (as we've proven we can't work out how to be holy by ourselves).

3. Islam. False. I've read the Koran (admittedly, only in translation). It makes a number of obvious historical mistakes which neither God nor any self-respecting angel would make, leaving it as a human document. Further, the Koran states that the basics of Judaism and Christianity are true (although corrupted), but the Koran cannot be translated. As Judaism and Christianity both believe that multiple languages are the result of a divine curse on humans, the Koran must be the work of humans or it would not labour under this curse. Note that the Bible, both OT & NT have been easily translated into nearly every human language, and there does not appear to be a problem for the remaining translations.
Mohammad: I would judge to be a basically honourable man who was either insane or demon-possessed, depending on your worldview. That he wanted to spare POWs and the voices in his head abused him until he had them killed, supports this view.

4. Hinduism - false. Pure Hinduism believes that our concept of self in illusory, something which Descartes' "I think therefore I am" disproves. It is worth noting that Descartes was paraphrasing St. Augustine.

5. Buddhism - false. The four golden truths of Buddhism can be summed up as:
i) Life sucks.
ii)Life really sucks.
iii)Shoot the messenger!, and
iv) be a good boy.
comparing Buddha's writings with the information we have on men who've been sexually abused as children, I would guess that Buddha was raped as a child, probably by that scumbag brother of his. Many of Buddha's saying which his followers try to mystify actually make sense to abuse victims, as we've been there. I suspect that Buddhism will fade if we exterminate child molestors.

6. Taoism - true-ish. The Way, as a pure philosophy, has a great deal to recommend it. Difficult to explain though. Taoism is best understood personally. When you decide to postpone continuing studying it because you're busy enjoying a sunrise, you'll understand.

7. Confucianism - A fine philosophy, which teaches that you should honour the religion of your forebears, as that is necessary to understand who you are. So any Westerner who fails to respect Christianity is not following the teachings of Master Kung. The Annalects are a great read.
'My eldest student, what is your greatest desire?'
"To wake early on a spring morning, lead a choir in a traditional worship service, and to go home singing".
The master sighed, and answered 'I am with you'.

8. Shintoism - merely the most famous of the Animist traditions. The monotheist religions have, simply by thriving, proven that we don't need to grovel to the local spirits. My God can beat your gods is the simple reply to any animist.

I will add:
9. Zoroastrianism
- to your list, and that religion also seems to be true. Hail Soshyan, the Prince of Peace, worshipped by the Magi!
Whose star can be calculated by modern computer programs.

Because I've taken the time to check. Running through:
1. Judaism. This religion is true. The OT prophecies have repeatedly come true - to the level of getting not only the year, but even the month and day of the liberation of Jerusalem correct. the failure of the Jews to recognise the Messiah was predicted by a number of prophets.


Don't forget Nostradamus. He was a Jew. Maybe true, perhaps in certain aspects, but I'm not here to attack people's religion. I'm asking why people think their religion is infallible.

2. Christianity. Again, true. Much of what is said about Christianity isn't, and Christians seem incapable of learning the (very basic) lessons God is continually teaching us. All this shows is that Original Sin is true, and that we need Jesus (as we've proven we can't work out how to be holy by ourselves).


Look I'm not going to touch on this one too much. I agree with Jesus but my only "belief" system comes from Taoism. Therefor I can listen to all philosophies and religions and take what I think is valuable on board. But I try not to believe. I just listen because I may be wrong.

3. Islam. False. I've read the Koran (admittedly, only in translation). It makes a number of obvious historical mistakes which neither God nor any self-respecting angel would make, leaving it as a human document. Further, the Koran states that the basics of Judaism and Christianity are true (although corrupted), but the Koran cannot be translated. As Judaism and Christianity both believe that multiple languages are the result of a divine curse on humans, the Koran must be the work of humans or it would not labour under this curse. Note that the Bible, both OT & NT have been easily translated into nearly every human language, and there does not appear to be a problem for the remaining translations.
Mohammad: I would judge to be a basically honourable man who was either insane or demon-possessed, depending on your worldview. That he wanted to spare POWs and the voices in his head abused him until he had them killed, supports this view.


Yes but how much of the meaning is lost in the many years of translation? Plus Islam is not an inheritely violent system. From what I have read on the on-line translation, the Taliban has taken it entirely out of context. Killing one innocent non-Muslim has the same amount of sin as killing a Muslim. But it's your view, and I respect that.


4. Hinduism - false. Pure Hinduism believes that our concept of self in illusory, something which Descartes' "I think therefore I am" disproves. It is worth noting that Descartes was paraphrasing St. Augustine.

Ahem... You are treading on toes my man. Don't do that. You can't prove your existance. Neither can I. It's the same principle in the Theory of Relativity. You can't prove that I'm really moving. I'm only moving relative to something. You can't prove I really exist. I exist relative to something. Think about that. You may have a dream in which you are a butterfly, then you awake to find yourself to be human. But are you a human that dreams you are a butterfly, or a butterfly who dreams you are a human. Does it seem real in the dream? Then how can you deny it is any less real than this world? Sorry to get all philosophical on you.

5. Buddhism - false. The four golden truths of Buddhism can be summed up as:
i) Life sucks.
ii)Life really sucks.
iii)Shoot the messenger!, and
iv) be a good boy.
comparing Buddha's writings with the information we have on men who've been sexually abused as children, I would guess that Buddha was raped as a child, probably by that scumbag brother of his. Many of Buddha's saying which his followers try to mystify actually make sense to abuse victims, as we've been there. I suspect that Buddhism will fade if we exterminate child molestors.

Now you are in deep hot scalding water. But please truly think about it before you judge it. Why does life suck? Because you have too many high expectations. You have desire. Whatever it is that you desire, chances are that you will either a) not get it or b) get it so often that you don't appreciate it. Everyone has desire. Some desires burn more deeply than others. People desire to breathe, that is why they live. People desire to eat, that is also why they live. You can't make life to stop sucking, but you can make it suck less. Think about it. If a person has a desire for sex, they may rape someone. If someone has a desire for money, they may rob someone. If you can get rid off many desires so that you only wish to eat, sleep, drink and breathe, then you won't be hurting anyone. You will live and let live. That's the whole idea of the monastaries.

6. Taoism - true-ish. The Way, as a pure philosophy, has a great deal to recommend it. Difficult to explain though. Taoism is best understood personally. When you decide to postpone continuing studying it because you're busy enjoying a sunrise, you'll understand.

Well, no real disagreements. I am a Taoist after all.

7. Confucianism - A fine philosophy, which teaches that you should honour the religion of your forebears, as that is necessary to understand who you are. So any Westerner who fails to respect Christianity is not following the teachings of Master Kung. The Annalects are a great read.
'My eldest student, what is your greatest desire?'
"To wake early on a spring morning, lead a choir in a traditional worship service, and to go home singing".
The master sighed, and answered 'I am with you'.


Confucious was too set in his ways like many Christians. He was not ready to hear anyone else's opinions because he believed that he was right and no one who agreed with him was wrong. He was also sexist, racist and homophobic. I don't agree with many of his "linear" philosophies.

8. Shintoism - merely the most famous of the Animist traditions. The monotheist religions have, simply by thriving, proven that we don't need to grovel to the local spirits. My God can beat your gods is the simple reply to any animist.

Sorry I don't know too much about Shintoism to comment. I'm sorry to all you Shintoists out there, I only know about some of it through samurai movies.

4. Hinduism - false. Pure Hinduism believes that our concept of self in illusory, something which Descartes' "I think therefore I am" disproves. It is worth noting that Descartes was paraphrasing St. Augustine.


Descartes' cognito has many convincing counter-arguments. In the current philosophical climate it is not taken to be proof or disproof of anything.


5. Buddhism - false. The four golden truths of Buddhism can be summed up as:
i) Life sucks.
ii)Life really sucks.
iii)Shoot the messenger!, and
iv) be a good boy.
comparing Buddha's writings with the information we have on men who've been sexually abused as children, I would guess that Buddha was raped as a child, probably by that scumbag brother of his. Many of Buddha's saying which his followers try to mystify actually make sense to abuse victims, as we've been there. I suspect that Buddhism will fade if we exterminate child molestors.


Don't forget that Zen Buddhism, Lamaist Buddhism and Indian Buddshism (to name but 3 varieties) are all very distinct theologies. Your assertions do not apply to all branches of Buddhism.


6. Taoism - true-ish. The Way, as a pure philosophy, has a great deal to recommend it. Difficult to explain though. Taoism is best understood personally. When you decide to postpone continuing studying it because you're busy enjoying a sunrise, you'll understand.


Actually it's not that hard to understand. Well, the Dao De Jing is but you have to read it along with the Commentaries and the Zhuang Zi. All in all Daoism is probably easier to grasp than some of St Augustine's arguments such as the timeless God justification for omniscience being compatible with free will (still trying to get my head around all the ramifications of that).


7. Confucianism - A fine philosophy, which teaches that you should honour the religion of your forebears, as that is necessary to understand who you are. So any Westerner who fails to respect Christianity is not following the teachings of Master Kung. The Annalects are a great read.
'My eldest student, what is your greatest desire?'
"To wake early on a spring morning, lead a choir in a traditional worship service, and to go home singing".
The master sighed, and answered 'I am with you'.


Not a big fan of Confucianism myself. Its fetish with antiquated, indeed largely lost, texts and the ways of forgotten kings is a personal bug-bear. And whilst the philosophy may appear to be neutral as regards religion it isn't really, it sets out that one should follow the Book Of Rites (which has been largely lost). And that's the philosophy, not the religion, which, like Daoism, long ago moved some way from the core philosophical arguments. Not unlike modern Christianity, some might say ;).


8. Shintoism - merely the most famous of the Animist traditions. The monotheist religions have, simply by thriving, proven that we don't need to grovel to the local spirits. My God can beat your gods is the simple reply to any animist.


But doesn't, in any way, show which faith is more likely to be true.

It should not matter to any of us to prove which religion is supposidly more right then the other...

In what right do we have to try and tell someone else that they're wrong...

We place the blame too much on religions and beliefs as a WHOLE and harboring grudges against each other...

The true followers of their own religions and beliefs are secure in the fact that what they believe in is right... And to that note I say all the power to them...

However tolerance these days and even in the past is at a low...

Never loose sight of the fact that every person is a human being... Regardless of what your belief is on how we came to be... The result is always the same... We all breathe the same air... We all bleed... And we certainly all die...

In the end... I do believe that I will see God and the Lord Jesus my savoir when I reach the Kingdom Of Heaven... And I will fear nothing... Not even death itself as that day comes...

As for my friends...their belief resides in other religions...and I will always wish them luck on whatever they do...

No matter what religion...belief...philosophy you follow... The Golden Rule is the same...

"Do onto others, as you would have them done onto you."

I pray that I will live to see the day when Humanity unites under one banner...

"Humanity can hold the universe in it's palm...If it only learned to uncleanch it's fist."

The Golden Rule is a universal law of peace...To live and let live so to speak...The mystery of it all is why is there a common strain among all of mankind...throughout the course of history....I remember searching within myself...when my faith was tested....and merely was reminded in my own voice to not be so vain as to think I can understand it all.....to do so is to know the mind of God...and this is impossible.....Philosophy teaches us of the uncaused first cause...The nature of Creation ...and if logic is followed then God exists.... Now rest your mind and let your heart relax in the arms of faith