NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone would like to help start up a discussion on World War II. Also, I'm also considering starting up a forum if a lot of people are interested in this.

Anyways, I'll start it off.

I'm really interested in assassination plots. I know there were a bunch for Hitler. In July of 1944, there were a half dozen assassination attempts on Hitler. The most memorable one was, of course, the July Plot. It interests me that during the time the bomb exploded, Hitler was standing next to it and didn't die. He got slightly injured in the hand. Four others who were farther away from the bomb, died.

I also know that there was an assassination plot to kill President Roosevelt when he was visiting Tehran, I believe in 1943? Anyways, enemy paracuists from Germany got in Tehran. The plot failed when several lost their nerves. The others were rounded up by the Russians.

Thats all I know right now.

Learn about Otto Skorzeny of you want to learn about the Nazi "supermen".

Learn about Otto Skorzeny of you want to learn about the Nazi "supermen".

Ahh yes, Skorzeny, he;s in a book I'm reading right now. Very interesting fellow if you ask me.

:rolleyes: Well I'd be more than willing to join in the discussions. Don't know a whole lot about Assasinations though. Feel free to ..PM? me though or such if anything gets started.

there was an assaination attempt on truman while he was in office but i dont know who was behind it

there was an assaination attempt on truman while he was in office but i dont know who was behind it

You are correct. It was either in 1950 or 1953, I'm not sure though.

Two Peturo Ricans were behind it. At that time the White House was being renovated so Truman was in the Blair House, which was across the street from the White House. Anyways, the two Puetro Ricans made their way onto the grounds with handguns. One of them shot a security guard in the head and he was killed instantly. Another police officer was shot in both legs but managed to shoot one of the assaliants in the face. Obviously, he died. The other one was wounded and later put on trial.

Truman did not want the attempted assassinator to get the death pentaly because the Puetro Ricans didn't believe in the death pentaly.

Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone would like to help start up a discussion on World War II. Also, I'm also considering starting up a forum if a lot of people are interested in this.

Anyways, I'll start it off.

I'm really interested in assassination plots. I know there were a bunch for Hitler. In July of 1944, there were a half dozen assassination attempts on Hitler. The most memorable one was, of course, the July Plot. It interests me that during the time the bomb exploded, Hitler was standing next to it and didn't die. He got slightly injured in the hand. Four others who were farther away from the bomb, died.

Thats all I know right now.

The reason why, was their was a massive thick oak planning table. The person who planted the bomb, Stauffenberg (excuse spelling) placed it on one side of balastrade however one of the field marshalls kept knocking it so he moved it other side of table leg. This massive leg effectively shielded Hitler. The rest is history.....

The reason why, was their was a massive thick oak planning table. The person who planted the bomb, Stauffenberg (excuse spelling) placed it on one side of balastrade however one of the field marshalls kept knocking it so he moved it other side of table leg. This massive leg effectively shielded Hitler. The rest is history.....

Right now I would say thank God that he didn't die. Hitler's death could of been a morale booster and could of unstabled the Nazi government. I mean you might think thats a good idea but from a standpoint of someone who knows dictatorships, its not. Hitler did some good things for the Allies by not listening to his generals, which was a lame move by him.

And the most tragic thing is that Rommel had to bite the bullet for others' assassination plans/attempts.

And the most tragic thing is that Rommel had to bite the bullet for others' assassination plans/attempts.

Well he had too. I mean he was a part of the July Plot.

No, they tried to recruit him for it, and he refused.

I can't remember if that was where he said that "I serve Hitler because Germany will outlive the Nazis"?

But either way, he refused to play a part in it.

No, they tried to recruit him for it, and he refused.

I can't remember if that was where he said that "I serve Hitler because Germany will outlive the Nazis"?

But either way, he refused to play a part in it.

No he was. Why do you think the Gestapo forced him to commit suicide?

Because Hitler overestimated his role in the assassination.

He knew Rommel had been contacted, but he was uncertain as to how deeply he was interwoven in the plot. Therefore, deciding it best to just assume the worst, he threatened Rommel's family if he did not kill himself.

Because Hitler overestimated his role in the assassination.

He knew Rommel had been contacted, but he was uncertain as to how deeply he was interwoven in the plot. Therefore, deciding it best to just assume the worst, he threatened Rommel's family if he did not kill himself.

Okay, you just contradicted yourself there. You said earlier he wasn't involved in the assassination and then just now you said he had a role in the assassination. The truth is he did have a part in the assassination. He knew about it and he didn't think to to tell Hitler. Not telling your leader that there is an assassination planned on him should tell you something. If he didn't tell Hitler that means he is a part of the assassination.

Plus, there was a purge after the assassination attempt on Hitler. So it wasn't like they were trying to find out what exactly happen. If they heard that you were a part of it they would just come to your house and kill you. Simple as that.

I wouldn't say I contradicted myself, but I'd say we're in agreement but are more or less arguing over the semantics.

My idea of a "role" in the plot involves actually attempting to take the man's life.

Rommel didn't actually want anything to do with the assassination, but had no real qualms with Hitler getting killed. Therefore he figured he'd let it go, unabeited. Unfortunately for him, the hammer was brought down on him instead.

If your definition of a "role" means that he knew about it or was approached, you're right, he had a role, but certainly not one worthy of what he got.

Yes but Germany was in a middle of a purge. I mean you would get killed for a small thing like giving the assassin an address for some other guy. He was killed because he knew of the plot not because he did anything.

Also, Hitler was nice enough to give him the chance to kill himself so he could get a state funeral.

In the end, I'd still call it a bullshit situation, and a completely idiotic move by Hitler at that. When you're in a position where your war is going horribly awry, your last idea should be to dishearten your troops and, in essence, murder your greatest general.

But then no one has ever accused Hitler of being a genius.

In the end, I'd still call it a bullshit situation, and a completely idiotic move by Hitler at that. When you're in a position where your war is going horribly awry, your last idea should be to dishearten your troops and, in essence, murder your greatest general.

But then no one has ever accused Hitler of being a genius.

It doesn't matter that Rommel was the greatest general. It matters that Rommel was a threat to Hitler, in the eyes of Hitler. Thats why Rommel was taken out of the picture.

And yes, Hitler was a genius. Don't you ever get a shiver every time you see a live footage of him? I studied him a little. His thoughts and beliefs are very fascinating. Although I must say that Mein Kampf sucked.

Hitler was a genius.

Just not when he tried to interfere with German military operations.

It doesn't matter that Rommel was the greatest general. It matters that Rommel was a threat to Hitler, in the eyes of Hitler. Thats why Rommel was taken out of the picture.

And yes, Hitler was a genius. Don't you ever get a shiver every time you see a live footage of him? I studied him a little. His thoughts and beliefs are very fascinating. Although I must say that Mein Kampf sucked.
Hitler was a great rabble rouser...that is not the sign of a genius. Now he had genius lieutenants, and lots of them in both his administration and his military hierarchy. Ultimately he thought their success was his success, and thereby gradually attempted to garner more power under his direct control. The Russian fiasco, both in the no-retreat policy, and the basic timing of the invasion, show military genius being conspicuously absent.

I wasn't talking about him as a military genius. God no, Hitler a military genius? Don't make me laugh.

If I remember correctly the reason Hitler survived was because there was a heavy table support in the way. I'm not sure though, correct me if I am wrong.

If I remember correctly the reason Hitler survived was because there was a heavy table support in the way. I'm not sure though, correct me if I am wrong.

I think you are correct. They never said what stopped him from blowing into pieces. Plus the bomb was moved before it went off.

Yes but Germany was in a middle of a purge. I mean you would get killed for a small thing like giving the assassin an address for some other guy. He was killed because he knew of the plot not because he did anything.

Also, Hitler was nice enough to give him the chance to kill himself so he could get a state funeral.

A interesting link on the topic is:http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Conspiracy.htm

One of the little known stories about the plot to assassinate Hitler involved the sister-in-law of Claus Stauffenberg, the plot ringleader. Melitta Stauffenberg, a decorated pilot, was married to Claus’ brother and was initially supposed to fly him to Hitler’s headquarters where he was to carry out the assassination. Although a guaranteed death sentence she agreed to pilot the plane.

Melitta Stauffenberg (nee Schillers) was an engineer and military test pilot, who won the Luftwaffe Gold Pilot’s Badge and the Iron Cross I and II, and accumulated more than 2,000 dive-bombing flights during the war, more than any other German pilot, male or female. Ironically, she also had a Jewish grandfather and was only granted “equal-to-Aryan” status because of the importance of her work (this kept her family out of the death camps).

At the last minute the plans for Hitler’s assassination were changed and Melitta was not directly involved in the plot. However, her husband and nieces and nephews ended up in concentration camps, where she would visit and bring them food and provisions. It was while flying to a camp to visit her husband that she was shot down and killed less than a month before the war ended.

bump

In my opinion, the timing of the assassination would have made it a good thing had it succeeded. I believe that by July 1944 the German military leadership wanted a quick peace, while they still had some bargaining power. If not then, definitely by October, after the destruction of most of the western German armies. The only thing that kept the war going an extra year was Hitler.

In my opinion, the timing of the assassination would have made it a good thing had it succeeded. I believe that by July 1944 the German military leadership wanted a quick peace, while they still had some bargaining power. If not then, definitely by October, after the destruction of most of the western German armies. The only thing that kept the war going an extra year was Hitler.

By 1944 I dont think Stalin's Red Army would have given a crap whether or not Germany wanted peace. They wanted revenge and they were invading Germany regardless of what the high german command wanted.

By 1944 I dont think Stalin's Red Army would have given a crap whether or not Germany wanted peace. They wanted revenge and they were invading Germany regardless of what the high german command wanted.

Good point. Most Americans do not realize that World War II in Europe was overwhelmingly a Russo-German war, with the fighting in the West mostly a sideshow.

Yes, I realize Russia might not have wanted to stop, but perhaps the Western Allies could have convinced Stalin. Not likely, but oh well. And I do know that the European theatre was mostly a German-Russian war, unlike most of the kids at my school. My history textbook sucks. All it says is that Germany lost the battle of Stalingrad and that Russia was in the war. But Russia would have fallen, I think, had the British folded in 1940.

Hmmmm, from what I understand, the German High Command wanted to surrender to the Allied forces during the last stages of the war to keep the Soviet forces out of their territory if possible. The failed assasination and the hoped for truce after that would have probably been done so with the hopes of maintaining their bare independence. Since Soviet Russia at the time was allied with the Western powers, a truce, and the subsequent peace treaty if the attempt had succeeded, would have thrown a very large stick into Soviet plans for invading and conquering Germany.

Yes, I realize Russia might not have wanted to stop, but perhaps the Western Allies could have convinced Stalin. Not likely, but oh well. And I do know that the European theatre was mostly a German-Russian war, unlike most of the kids at my school. My history textbook sucks. All it says is that Germany lost the battle of Stalingrad and that Russia was in the war. But Russia would have fallen, I think, had the British folded in 1940.

The Nazis were waging a war against Soviet communists and Jewish people, Their war was not against "Russia" or Russians (In case you didnt know Germany had over 2 million soldiers of Russian dissent who volenteered to bring down Stalin's regime and their most famous commander was general Vlasov) so in fact it was a fascist-communist struggle not a russo-german struggle. And even if the British did fall the soviets would still have massive imports from the united states of America(it was them doing 90% of the imports anyway). In short I think Hitlers best chance to win was when he almost took Moscow, Had he succeeded then Stalin would be dead and the Soviet Union would collapse(Siberia would be granted its indpendence while a russo-german government would be set up in western Russia)

(In case you didnt know Germany had over 2 million soldiers of Russian dissent who volenteered to bring down Stalin's regime and their most famous commander was general Vlasov)

Umm...yeah, if you count "volunteer" as "join us or starve".

The Russians were treated as a slave race, and their lands would have been vacated to make lebensraum. Hitler said it himself.

True, I should probably refer to it as the Soviet Union. But Russia is so much easier...

Anyways: the reason I think Hitler would have won in the USSR if Britian had fallen was oil. The only people who stood between the Nazis and the rich oil fields of the Middle East were Motgomery and his men. If Britain had surrendered or been conquered, then Rommel has an unopposed drive over North Africa and can get all the oil Germany's armies need. Thus, the next summer, Hitler does not send his troops south, therefore NO Stalingrad, therefore NO loss of 250,000 troops. Heck, Rommel could have even driven into USSR from the south. How long do you think Stalin would have lasted with his empire in ruins, his armies shattered, and Germany's greatest tank general knocking on his door?

Umm...yeah, if you count "volunteer" as "join us or starve".

The Russians were treated as a slave race, and their lands would have been vacated to make lebensraum. Hitler said it himself.


Sure thats why thousands of them were excepted into the Waffen SS(slaves dont enlist into an elite fighting force) and while Hitler did want lebenstraum in the early stages, during the winter of 1941 he DID change his mind and advised Himmler to start enlisting Russian men into the fascist armies in hopes that the Russians would cooperate and create a pro german government in western Russia(just like the french did in Vichy France)

True, I should probably refer to it as the Soviet Union. But Russia is so much easier...

Anyways: the reason I think Hitler would have won in the USSR if Britian had fallen was oil. The only people who stood between the Nazis and the rich oil fields of the Middle East were Motgomery and his men. If Britain had surrendered or been conquered, then Rommel has an unopposed drive over North Africa and can get all the oil Germany's armies need. Thus, the next summer, Hitler does not send his troops south, therefore NO Stalingrad, therefore NO loss of 250,000 troops. Heck, Rommel could have even driven into USSR from the south. How long do you think Stalin would have lasted with his empire in ruins, his armies shattered, and Germany's greatest tank general knocking on his door?

Britain did not even come close to being defeated. To successfully mount a landing across the channel required air and sea superiority. The Germans may have got air parity at best, but their navy was not capable of securing even the North Sea.

Sure thats why thousands of them were excepted into the Waffen SS(slaves dont enlist into an elite fighting force) and while Hitler did want lebenstraum in the early stages, during the winter of 1941 he DID change his mind and advised Himmler to start enlisting Russian men into the fascist armies in hopes that the Russians would cooperate and create a pro german government in western Russia(just like the french did in Vichy France)

You have only identified that the Nazi's racial policies were fucked up. Many of the volunteers, however- particularly those in the SS- were Latvian and Estonian. The rest were mostly Ukranians that so happened to be blonde haired and blue-eyed.

They were excessively brutal and enslaved all those they could. I should know, because my grandfather was one of them. You can't seriously believe that they had the best of intentions. I'm sure they were doing a great service for anti-communism by entering villages, slaughtering the occupants and hanging their corpses from trees, then keeping the children as manual labour. They were true heroes, weren't they?

How about DeGaul's (or his supporters) assassination of Darlan? It certainly would have been a different post-war France with Darlan leading the French instead of DeGaul.

How about DeGaul's (or his supporters) assassination of Darlan? It certainly would have been a different post-war France with Darlan leading the French instead of DeGaul.

DeGaul was not the one that assassinated Darlan. The whole thing was a giant set up by the British Government. Churchhill despised Darlan. this was because Darlan wanted to sell the navy to the highest bidder pretty much. *after the French collapsed Darlan served as Vichy regime under Patain, so he had the power to do it.* Churchill bombed the navy, hoping no one would be able to use it. Anyways, Churchill was a fan of DeGaul, but Roosevelt liked Darlan. In the end a Frenchman, who was in the resistence killed Darlan, but I think it was a plan by the British Government to get rid of him.

DeGaul was not the one that assassinated Darlan. The whole thing was a giant set up by the British Government. Churchhill despised Darlan. this was because Darlan wanted to sell the navy to the highest bidder pretty much. *after the French collapsed Darlan served as Vichy regime under Patain, so he had the power to do it.* Churchill bombed the navy, hoping no one would be able to use it. Anyways, Churchill was a fan of DeGaul, but Roosevelt liked Darlan. In the end a Frenchman, who was in the resistence killed Darlan, but I think it was a plan by the British Government to get rid of him.There's a strong ammount of evidence to support the last part (the assassain was trained bythe Brits for instance) the rest is a little off. Darlan made clear that the French Navy was not going to the Germans and despite the British bombing of the fleet (for fear that the Germans would capture it, not buy it) refused to put the remainder under German control. He was not holding out to sell it, he merely felt that the French fleet should serve France not Germany or Britain, despite claims by some British apologists. Really he was more of a patriot for France than anything else, but he was also an anglophobe and refused to give the French Fleet to the British, although he seemed to have no problem surrendering to US. The problem with Churchill alone being responsible for the assassignation is that while the Assassain was trained for the SOE by the British, he worked for the resistance under DeGaul.