NationStates Jolt Archive

Here is an article about the EU guidelines for new immigrants:

(11-19) 10:46 PST BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) --

European Union justice and interior ministers agreed Friday that new immigrants to the 25-nation bloc should be required to learn local languages, and to adhere to general "European values" that will guide them toward better integration.

Dutch immigration minister Rita Verdonk, who chaired the meeting, said all countries agreed to make integrating newcomers a priority, considering the growing ethnic tensions as EU nations struggle to absorb a steady stream of poor, mostly Muslim immigrants.

Just this month in the Netherlands, the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected Muslim radical unleashed a wave of attacks against mosques, churches and religious schools in a country once famed for its tolerance.

Tensions also rose in Belgium, where authorities arrested a suspect Friday accused of sending death threats to a senator of Moroccan heritage who criticized radical Muslims.

"It's not like we are against immigration," Verdonk said. "If you want to live in the Netherlands, you have to adhere to our rules ... and learn our language."

Highlighting a European-wide problem, Verdonk said that some 500,000 Turkish and Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands don't speak Dutch.

For now, integration policies across the continent vary greatly. Public concerns over immigration have fueled electoral successes for far-right parties in several European countries, including Austria and Italy, where they have joined the national government.

Many Muslims have bristled at new rules targeting immigrants that they say amount to racial profiling that is insensitive of their religion.

Yet incoming EU justice and home affairs commissioner Franco Frattini told reporters in Rome that integration had to be an essential part of an EU policy.

"We can't imagine an immigration policy that focuses only on the prevention of illegal immigration, without considering the integration of those who want to enter a European country to live and work there in full respect of the law of both the country and Europe," Frattini said.

The EU ministers also set out a list of 11 nonbinding guidelines for governments and immigrant communities, including accepting basic European values, providing employment and education, knowledge of the local language, culture and history, and open access to local health care and other public services.


URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/19/international1346EST0547.DTL


And there are those who feel the US is so bad. Looks like you folks should stop throwing stones.

sounds reasonable to me.

Learning the language is a difficult, but reasonable, demand. I'm a little more concerned over what they mean by "European values"; that requires clarification.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

On the contrary, I this it's pretty daft that something like this doesn't already exist. If you want to live in a country/are forced too, there's absolutely no use in you unless you can communicate with the locals. Where does freedom come into this? Sounds more like a matter of practicality.

Learning the language is a difficult, but reasonable, demand. I'm a little more concerned over what they mean by "European values"; that requires clarification.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

that's exactly what really made me think! Good job, gold star for you.


BTW what are European Values as opposed to EU Values?

hmmm, lets see, its a non-binding agreement. its just a set of guidelines, no national government has to pass any of the recommended measures. the eu wants to make sure immigrants can become part of their culture and wants to make the transition easier. instead of telling them to adapt or die, they are trying to make immigrants into productive members of the community. instead of exploiting cheap labor that cant demand rights because they cant speak the language, instead of letting communities of poor, alienated people develop, they want to see the immigrant community build links with the government and be represented. how horrible of the eu.

hmmm, lets see, its a non-binding agreement. its just a set of guidelines, no national government has to pass any of the recommended measures. the eu wants to make sure immigrants can become part of their culture and wants to make the transition easier. instead of telling them to adapt or die, they are trying to make immigrants into productive members of the community. instead of exploiting cheap labor that cant demand rights because they cant speak the language, instead of letting communities of poor, alienated people develop, they want to see the immigrant community build links with the government and be represented. how horrible of the eu.

Why should an immigrant have to give up all of their values and follow European Values? What if these EU Values are racially biased against said immigrants?

Why should an immigrant have to give up all of their values and follow European Values? What if these EU Values are racially biased against said immigrants?
did it say they are giving up their values? understanding what your neighbors think doesnt mean you lose your own identity, it just makes it easier to live with your neighbors.

Learning the language is a difficult, but reasonable, demand. I'm a little more concerned over what they mean by "European values"; that requires clarification.
Agreed. I'd assume (being an ignorant american) it probably involves things like semi-regular bathing or other hygiene practices, and the women being free to wander around in skimpy clothing. :)

This reminds me of bumper stickers I see all the time

Welcome to America! NOW SPEAK ENGLISH

Of course, normally they do by the second generation. Often the adults use their children as interpreters.

I totally agree on the language part. You cannot function in a country without speaking it's language. I do agree with cogitation that European values should be defined first.
Actually it should not be necessary to bring the values thing in the integration issue: all relevant values are embodied in our (European) constitution. And as Rita Verdonk said, it's about adhering to the rules and learning the language.

Don't forget that being a citizen of a European country brings a lot of rights and benefits with it. All citizens enjoy social securities. Learning our languages is a small price to pay for enjoying all benefits of being part of a European country.

I'd have to say that the European values is troubling. Nothing against the requirement to learn the local language. But European Values is troubling...

i think they're talking about european values like those in the constitution, like somebody else said. you know, basic ideas like women's rights and seperation of church and state. things that are kind of needed to live in european countries

This is why we should surround our borders with obstacles like firey pits, barbed wire, razorwire, attack dogs, pools of acid, and the like, and videotape the crossings for the masses to watch and enjoy. Anyone who makes it past certainly deserves access to our wonderful social programs. :)

European values probably means agreeing to a separation of church and state and accepting gender, racial, and religious equality. In other words not killing a guy who makes a movie you don't like.

Cool, like a new reality TV show where the winners are awarded with citizenship, and the losers ripped apart by Dobermen/barbed wire/automated defence guns.

what exactly are you complaining about?

people being required to adapt to where they are moving to? boo hoo

what exactly are you complaining about?

people being required to adapt to where they are moving to? boo hoo
When we talk like this in the US we get called nativists.

I'd have to say that the European values is troubling. Nothing against the requirement to learn the local language. But European Values is troubling...

It is troubling only if there is something wrong/racist/etc. about said values. Without having a link to them, we don't know what they are. It could be much like the tests that the US requires - basic knowledge of the history, law, importance of equality, etc.

When we talk like this in the US we get called nativists.

Or evil, nazi neo-con hate mongerers.

I wonder do they have to learn Irish, hehe

I wonder do they have to learn Irish, hehe
hey, hey Gaelic mind you ;)

When we talk like this in the US we get called nativists.
adhering to your native culture is one thing

adhering to your native culture in spite of the new culture you have entered into is another

they very LEAST you can do is learn the language

adhering to your native culture is one thing

adhering to your native culture in spite of the new culture you have entered into is another

they very LEAST you can do is learn the language
I never said there's anything wrong with requiring people to learn the local language, I'm saying that the evolution of cultures to include new facets is greatly helped by accepting portions of foreign cultures.

hey, hey Gaelic mind you ;)
I only say Gaelic when talking about scotish.
Its Irish or Gaeilge for me.

I think European values mean not bringing racial conflicts from your homelands to other countries; Therefore not going out of your way to punch a random person you think is Polish for some 200 year old blood feud. Especially when they're not Polish and on the other side of the road.

Me, bitter? No....

Learning the language is a difficult, but reasonable, demand. I'm a little more concerned over what they mean by "European values"; that requires clarification.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

I'm worried it'll be just more stuff along the lines of "you can't wear a headscarf, in school, regardless of whether you consider it immodest to go without one."

I'm worried it'll be just more stuff along the lines of "you can't wear a headscarf, in school, regardless of whether you consider it immodest to go without one."

No, that's only in France, where religion is looked upon as if it is Naziism.

I think this is an example of those European values:

==
Ban on the burqa in six communes of Brussels

150 Euros fine in case of violation

HRWF Int. (02.02.2004) - Website http://www.hrwf.net - A new provision has been introduced in the general police regulation (art. 82) of Molenbeek St Jean, one of the nineteen communes of Brussels, which forbids "to be masked and disguised in the public square". The prohibition is meant to target the burqa, commonly worn by Afghan women. The origin of this restriction is to be found in the fact that in January 2004, a lady had come to the registry office of the town hall of Molenbeek, covered from her head to her feet. The mayor, Philippe Moureaux (socialist), former chairman of the Parliamentary Commission on Sects, was quoted as saying "The burqa is not a religious sign but is contrary to the habits of our country." Any violation of the regulation will be punished by a fine of 150 Euros.

Five other communes had already introduced the ban in their own police regulation at the end of last year.
===


Well on one hand i agree that wearing a burqa is not compatible with living in a European country. We just don't live like that. In many cases (public functions for example) it may not be possible to function in a European country when wearing a burqa.
On the other hand it may be said that this measure conflicts with a religious value. By banning the burqa we refuse to allow some people to properly practise their religion.
Still I think we have the right to ban behaviour which we don't find suitable with our society.

No, that's only in France, where religion is looked upon as if it is Naziism.
There's also debate over carrying such steps out in Germany. My high school German teacher will every so often send his former students excerpts from German news magazines, and those talk about it.

I think this is an example of those European values:

==
Ban on the burqa in six communes of Brussels

150 Euros fine in case of violation

HRWF Int. (02.02.2004) - Website http://www.hrwf.net - A new provision has been introduced in the general police regulation (art. 82) of Molenbeek St Jean, one of the nineteen communes of Brussels, which forbids "to be masked and disguised in the public square". The prohibition is meant to target the burqa, commonly worn by Afghan women. The origin of this restriction is to be found in the fact that in January 2004, a lady had come to the registry office of the town hall of Molenbeek, covered from her head to her feet. The mayor, Philippe Moureaux (socialist), former chairman of the Parliamentary Commission on Sects, was quoted as saying "The burqa is not a religious sign but is contrary to the habits of our country." Any violation of the regulation will be punished by a fine of 150 Euros.

Five other communes had already introduced the ban in their own police regulation at the end of last year.
===


Well on one hand i agree that wearing a burqa is not compatible with living in a European country. We just don't live like that. In many cases (public functions for example) it may not be possible to function in a European country when wearing a burqa.
On the other hand it may be said that this measure conflicts with a religious value. By banning the burqa we refuse to allow some people to properly practise their religion.
Still I think we have the right to ban behaviour which we don't find suitable with our society.

totally agree. if my religion requires the sacrificing of virgins to the angry gods, the state has every right to ban it.

Here is an article about the EU guidelines for new immigrants:

(11-19) 10:46 PST BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) --

European Union justice and interior ministers agreed Friday that new immigrants to the 25-nation bloc should be required to learn local languages, and to adhere to general "European values" that will guide them toward better integration.

Dutch immigration minister Rita Verdonk, who chaired the meeting, said all countries agreed to make integrating newcomers a priority, considering the growing ethnic tensions as EU nations struggle to absorb a steady stream of poor, mostly Muslim immigrants.

Just this month in the Netherlands, the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected Muslim radical unleashed a wave of attacks against mosques, churches and religious schools in a country once famed for its tolerance.

Tensions also rose in Belgium, where authorities arrested a suspect Friday accused of sending death threats to a senator of Moroccan heritage who criticized radical Muslims.

"It's not like we are against immigration," Verdonk said. "If you want to live in the Netherlands, you have to adhere to our rules ... and learn our language."

Highlighting a European-wide problem, Verdonk said that some 500,000 Turkish and Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands don't speak Dutch.

For now, integration policies across the continent vary greatly. Public concerns over immigration have fueled electoral successes for far-right parties in several European countries, including Austria and Italy, where they have joined the national government.

Many Muslims have bristled at new rules targeting immigrants that they say amount to racial profiling that is insensitive of their religion.

Yet incoming EU justice and home affairs commissioner Franco Frattini told reporters in Rome that integration had to be an essential part of an EU policy.

"We can't imagine an immigration policy that focuses only on the prevention of illegal immigration, without considering the integration of those who want to enter a European country to live and work there in full respect of the law of both the country and Europe," Frattini said.

The EU ministers also set out a list of 11 nonbinding guidelines for governments and immigrant communities, including accepting basic European values, providing employment and education, knowledge of the local language, culture and history, and open access to local health care and other public services.


URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/19/international1346EST0547.DTL


And there are those who feel the US is so bad. Looks like you folks should stop throwing stones.


US immigrants are requested to know the US history.

Not well the European Values, but the constitutional rights:

http://europa.eu.int/constitution/download/part_II_EN.pdf

US immigrants are requested to know the US history.

no they aren't

The US immigrants who want to be Americans must pass a test about US history, english and laws I think.

I found the fact that the EU has constitutional portions dedicated to equality and dignity amusing...

Here is an article about the EU guidelines for new immigrants:

(11-19) 10:46 PST BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) --

European Union justice and interior ministers agreed Friday that new immigrants to the 25-nation bloc should be required to learn local languages, and to adhere to general "European values" that will guide them toward better integration.

Dutch immigration minister Rita Verdonk, who chaired the meeting, said all countries agreed to make integrating newcomers a priority, considering the growing ethnic tensions as EU nations struggle to absorb a steady stream of poor, mostly Muslim immigrants.

Just this month in the Netherlands, the slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a suspected Muslim radical unleashed a wave of attacks against mosques, churches and religious schools in a country once famed for its tolerance.

Tensions also rose in Belgium, where authorities arrested a suspect Friday accused of sending death threats to a senator of Moroccan heritage who criticized radical Muslims.

"It's not like we are against immigration," Verdonk said. "If you want to live in the Netherlands, you have to adhere to our rules ... and learn our language."

Highlighting a European-wide problem, Verdonk said that some 500,000 Turkish and Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands don't speak Dutch.

For now, integration policies across the continent vary greatly. Public concerns over immigration have fueled electoral successes for far-right parties in several European countries, including Austria and Italy, where they have joined the national government.

Many Muslims have bristled at new rules targeting immigrants that they say amount to racial profiling that is insensitive of their religion.

Yet incoming EU justice and home affairs commissioner Franco Frattini told reporters in Rome that integration had to be an essential part of an EU policy.

"We can't imagine an immigration policy that focuses only on the prevention of illegal immigration, without considering the integration of those who want to enter a European country to live and work there in full respect of the law of both the country and Europe," Frattini said.

The EU ministers also set out a list of 11 nonbinding guidelines for governments and immigrant communities, including accepting basic European values, providing employment and education, knowledge of the local language, culture and history, and open access to local health care and other public services.


URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/19/international1346EST0547.DTL


And there are those who feel the US is so bad. Looks like you folks should stop throwing stones.
Such things already exist in the USA. I agree with these. Many European nations have failed to integrate immigrant communities, whereas America has been spectacularly successful at integration. It makes sense that we follow the USA example.

Why should an immigrant have to give up all of their values and follow European Values? What if these EU Values are racially biased against said immigrants?
They don't have to give up their own values. Look at it this way: in America you have Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, etc etc. They are all proud of their ethnic heritage, but are also proud, patriotic Americans. We want it to be more like that in Europe. Current attitudes say that you must be either totally native/ethnic to your original nationality or totally conform to that of your adopted country. I think the American way is better in this regard.


PS I don't see how freedom is being taken away. If you want to talk about freedom, how about I set up a thread to gloat every time a new state bans gay marriage, or every time an American is sentenced to 10 years in jail for possession of 12oz of cannabis?

The US immigrants who want to be Americans must pass a test about US history, english and laws I think.

Only for citizenship. And the test is a joke, and it is given in most languages.

I love this: When the US says "it would help immigrants to learn english" all the europeans scream, "Ha, you are racist biggoted rednecks, nazi scum, how dare you blah blah."


Now that europe has gone much further than the US ever will in the racist stakes, the measures are "prudent."

Hypocrits. Still what can you expect from the continent that brought us World War I and II. Nice work there.

PS I don't see how freedom is being taken away. If you want to talk about freedom, how about I set up a thread to gloat every time a new state bans gay marriage, or every time an American is sentenced to 10 years in jail for possession of 12oz of cannabis?

That's part of the freedom in the US. Those laws vary from state-to-state. The people (or judges) are able to decide what they view to be appropriate, for example In Massachussetts gay marriage is the law, and Vermont has civil unions.

In the 2002 election Ohio had a constitutional amendment on the ballot that would have made drug crime sentencing less punitive, it failed with a 55-45% margin. The are so often free to set the boundaries.

PS I don't see how freedom is being taken away. If you want to talk about freedom, how about I set up a thread to gloat every time a new state bans gay marriage, or every time an American is sentenced to 10 years in jail for possession of 12oz of cannabis?


I assume you live in a nation that allows gay marriage then?

no they aren't

Actually, they are. Most immigrants know more about US history and government than born citizens.

Actually, they are. Most immigrants know more about US history and government than born citizens.


No they aren't. You only have to take the test if you want to become a citizen. Otherwise you can carry on unmolested. As for the test itself, go to Ellis Island, you can try it out, it's pathetically easy. Shit like, "who is on the one dollar bill?"

totally agree. if my religion requires the sacrificing of virgins to the angry gods, the state has every right to ban it.

Not a valid comparison. Wearing a burqa harms no one.

No they aren't. You only have to take the test if you want to become a citizen. Otherwise you can carry on unmolested. As for the test itself, go to Ellis Island, you can try it out, it's pathetically easy. Shit like, "who is on the one dollar bill?"

An immigrant would become a citizen. An illegal immigrant would not.

And "who is on the one dollar bill" wouldn't be all that easy for someone who didn't grow up learning US history or live here for years.

EU is a good idea, but sometimes are this "bureaucracy" just a little to much...
;)

Maybe "european values" means something like: you can't blow up somebody for insulting your religion, you can't have your daughter's clitoris cut off when she reaches puberty, you can't stone people to death for adultery... you know... oppressive things like that, showing a lack of respect for the immigrants' customs.

Oh those dirty dirty Euros... trying to enforce their values on people they let live in their countries. And what's worse, expecting them to speak the local language, or even to try... those BASTARDS!!! :mad:

Shit like, "who is on the one dollar bill?"
ah thats easy: Mickey Mouse! :p
but more serious, its not so easy if you dont live in the USA.

and i dont get what you all complain about. european values goes towards the bloodfeud thing, or headscarf, the over-zealous religious muslims who call for killing unbelievers every few days. stuff like that, that in a civilized country shouldnt exist, but among these muslims it does.
and its not only france where every religion is viewed with suspicion, germany too.

that's exactly what really made me think! Good job, gold star for you.


BTW what are European Values as opposed to EU Values?

I wonder...

Do you support forcing immigrants to learn "American Values"?

Just curious.

i think its about time we had guidelines like this. If people want to live and work in a new ountry they should learn the language. As for adopting european values i would imagine this would be understanding and following the laws and human rights adopted by the country.

I love this: When the US says "it would help immigrants to learn english" all the europeans scream, "Ha, you are racist biggoted rednecks, nazi scum, how dare you blah blah."

Now that europe has gone much further than the US ever will in the racist stakes, the measures are "prudent."

Hypocrits. Still what can you expect from the continent that brought us World War I and II. Nice work there.

Quite frankly, I don't know where you're getting this idea from. I for one haven't heard anything about it in the past few years. If it's from the general idea that all Europeans and 'Euroweenies' are anti-everything American (and so must have said something about the US teaching immigrants English), then that's ignorant. But if it is a debate from several years ago, when I was too young to remember it, then I can see your point - but refer you to the guy who said that Europe had a different view of integration before (different from America), and is now realising that it has to change from that outdated view.

And I guess that Europe must be one of the biggest creators of the world's problems, causing world wars and stuff (never mind that the Japanese were doing their own stuff on the other side of the world from us), and that America is a new, perfect society that will save the world from the European decadence and corruption that has poisoned it through years of imperialism?

On another note, as for the burqa debate in France, the problem there is that France is secular. All religions are not tolerated - no crucifixes, no Stars of Davids etc. in school. It isn't that the law is targetting Muslims alone. All religions are targetted. France has been officially secular since Napoleonic times - they argue why should the Muslims get any leeway? It's tricky.
And also, the same debate is happening in Singapore as well - the burqa is known there by the Malay tudung, and Singapore wants to ban the tudung from school, arguing on a simple level that it breaks uniform codes.

I wonder...

Do you support forcing immigrants to learn "American Values"?

Just curious.

Speaking for myself: if by "American Values" you mean the (somewhat rare) american trait of tolerating people of other religions, as well as the value of not killing people for fornication and adultery, not sexually maiming little girls, etc., then I support forcing them to follow those values 100%, if they want to live in the USA. If you mean forcing their women not wear head scarves, if it is what the women want, then HELL no!

european values goes towards ... headscarf... that in a civilized country shouldnt exist, but among these muslims it does.

Yes, we should just start banning all sorts of clothing. We should make modest young girls walk around naked so they can stop being modest. We shouldn't allow girls to wear what they need to to feel comfortable in public in our civilized countries!

Speaking for myself: if by "American Values" you mean the (somewhat rare) american trait of tolerating people of other religions, as well as the value of not killing people for fornication and adultery, not sexually maiming little girls, etc., then I support forcing them to follow those values 100%, if they want to live in the USA. If you mean forcing their women not wear head scarves, if it is what the women want, then HELL no!
you know full well thats not what he means

you know full well thats not what he means

Oh, do I? :rolleyes: Pray, tell me what I know he means?

Yes, we should just start banning all sorts of clothing. We should make modest young girls walk around naked so they can stop being modest. We shouldn't allow girls to wear what they need to to feel comfortable in public in our civilized countries!

...especially if they're hot! ;)

There are no European values. We (Sweden) have different values than for example Russia, Malta, U.K or any other country in Europe. And Russia have different values than Poland, Greece, and (well.. I think ya get my point by now, without me beeing forced to name all the countries in Europe. )

What cracks me up is that these are the very things that EUro-snobs bash America for, yet here they are defending those policies. Hypocrites!

I wonder...

Do you support forcing immigrants to learn "American Values"?

Just curious.

No I don't, just pay your taxes and don't break the laws. If you want to do business with English speakers, learn to speak the language. This is not too much to ask.

No I don't, just pay your taxes and don't break the laws. If you want to do business with English speakers, learn to speak the language. This is not too much to ask.

OK, just checking.

In my experience over here, most immigrants do learn the language anyway. The elderly don't, but then, they don't need it as much.

Personally, I think they can practise whatever culture they like and that shouldn't be taken away from them.

Well thank you!

European Values: an investment company of Fidelity Investment International
Fidelity European Values is ones of four investment companies belonging to Fidelity Investment International. It is a financial service provider for institutional and private investors, and as its name suggests, it is also the British payee and distributor of unit trusts and investment products from the American world leader Fidelity. Fidelity European Values always looks for long-term investments on continental European share markets