NationStates Jolt Archive

And here I go again, ranting about another Isaac Asimov Book-to-Movie conversion. The riot I raised over I, Robot is still ringing in my ears. Anyway, this one is even worse than that travesty.

Isaac Asimovs Foundation Trilogy, composed of Foundation, Foundation & Empire, and Second Foundation, is one of the finest pieces of writing in the entire 20'th Century. It received a special Hugo Award for Best All Time Series. Not just Best Series of the Year, or Decade, or even Century, but All time. It is the basis for almost all modern science fiction. It is my all-time favorite written piece (and I'm the guy who reads ancient Greek literature for fun, so you know I know what I'm talking about) and has had countless awards heaped upon its head. In short, it is just one damn fine piece of work. Yet even it is not safe from the Hell Beasts of Hollywood.

The rights to the series were sold long ago, a movie has been 'in the works' for a long time. Right now it's still in the Pre-Pre-Preproduction stages. They have the rights, they want to make a movie, and that's pretty much it. Oh, and they have a general idea of how they want to make the movie. The way they want characters portrayed on the big screen and such. Do you want a Vader look (Big and imposing) or an Emperor look (Old and weak but wise)? Superman (Innately powerful) or Batman (Training and technology)? I think you get the idea. Well, when they described how The Mule will look I nearly shot myself.

The Mule, a Mutant with the power to alter the emotional makeup of humanity, is evil through and through. He's also insane. Brilliant and powerful, but still insane. Due to his being a Mutant his body is horribly deformed. He still has the normal number of limbs and such, but he's extremely sickly and thin, his joints aren't exactly perfect, and he has a bit of a beak. Yes, a beak. Well, after a childhood of torment and ridicule (Kids really can be cruel) he discovers his mental powers. Pissed off at the entire Universe he swears vengeance and sets out to conquer each and every single person in the entire Galaxy; and the fact that he can alter the emotions of everybody and make his mightiest enemies suddenly eternally loyal to him makes it pretty easy for him to succeed. He's not a cruel despot, but he's still a despot. He's conquering the Galaxy purely out of spite, to take vengeance upon everybody for his miserable childhood. In the movie he's going to be portrayed as a Champion of Love. Where the fuck does that come from?

The guy is destroying the very essence of the peoples he's conquered, forcing them to have the emotions he wants them to have. He has halted a thousand year plan to forge an eternal and Galaxy-spanning benevolent government. He has actually killed people purely with emotion, making them feel grief so intense as to die from it. Where the hell is Love playing a factor?

Want to know where love plays a role in the story? The only contact he has with it? When a woman genuinely likes him for him, not due to his emotional control, he falls in love with her and doesn't tamper with her mind. She then thwarts him in his plan for Galactic conquest. Love is the reason he lost.

What the hell is wrong with Hollywood?

they're...Hollywood.

He had a beak I always thought he was just suppose to have a huge nose. So are they just duing the parts with the Mule or are they duing all three books?

Let me re-phrase, his abnormally shaped nose and lips combine to form the shape of a beak. It's not made of the stuff bird beaks are made of. I should have been more specific.

I assume they'd be doing all three books since the Mule is in the second half of the second book and the first half of the third. It'd be weird to do two halves of two seperate books.

Surely there are more Isaac Asimov fans out there

Let me re-phrase, his abnormally shaped nose and lips combine to form the shape of a beak. It's not made of the stuff bird beaks are made of. I should have been more specific.

I assume they'd be doing all three books since the Mule is in the second half of the second book and the first half of the third. It'd be weird to do two halves of two seperate books.

Realy? hugh I never realy pictured him that way, I always thought of him as a tall Nobby.

After they butchered Starship Troopers anything concerning hollywood atrocity no longer surprises me.

In the books they often call it a beak. "He fingered his beak"......."He held it just under his beak-like nose"......etc.

Have you seen ST:2? That one crosses a line

In the books they often call it a beak. "He fingered his beak"......."He held it just under his beak-like nose"......etc.

Yah I can see what your getting that, around here though beak is some times used as a euphamism(sp) for a really big nose that must have been what threw me.

Ah, gotcha. It's an easy mistake to make.

Have you seen ST:2? That one crosses a line
It'd be the perfect MST3K movie, except I can't bring myself to actually watch the thing again.

MST3K?

Mystery Science Theater 3000. Its a TV show were they would show crappy old movies and splice in a guy and two robots at the bottom that made wise cracks.

Hollywood only puts out crap these days it seems. Damn southern californians.

Oh, yeah! I've seen that! Freaking hilarious show!

Hollywood only puts out crap these days it seems. Damn southern californians.
The incredibles was good, Saw was okay, not my thing though. Shaun of the dead and I'll Sleep When I'm Dead out of the UK were good as well.

The incredibles was good, Saw was okay, not my thing though. Shaun of the dead and I'll Sleep When I'm Dead out of the UK were good as well.

Last I checked, Hollywood wasn't in the UK ;)

Aren't there more Asimov fans out there to be outraged at this?

I'm an Asimov fan, but I'm not especially outraged. It's not like the movie is barging into my home to violate me with an eggbeater or something. Whenever a movie based on a book is made, I tend to just take it as a seperate entity altogether. There are a lot of people pissed off about changes to the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the silver screen. But it's not that critical. It's a movie.

I'm an Asimov fan, but I'm not especially outraged. It's not like the movie is barging into my home to violate me with an eggbeater or something. Whenever a movie based on a book is made, I tend to just take it as a seperate entity altogether. There are a lot of people pissed off about changes to the Lord of the Rings trilogy for the silver screen. But it's not that critical. It's a movie.
This is always a good point of view to take...

It's a point of view I often try to take (Like with I, Robot which, as is glaringly obvioius, actually isn't based on Asimovs book. It was a script with nothing to do with Asimov that had its name and the names of characters changed so that it would appeal to the Asimov fan base) but sometimes the wall I put up just isn't strong enough.

not really being an asimov fan im not outraged by this news, merely completely perplexed. How on earth does a horrible mutatant pull of champion of love in a way that isnt sickeningly trite. Its as if someone wants the movie(s) to fail.

But again Hollywoods ability to rape the past never ceases to amaze, after all look at thunderbirds, garfieldm(not in the past but well and trully raped anyway) and now worst of all the appear to have ruined the magic roundabout in a way i could never possibly imagine, and i wanted them to advertise it using adverts with an AvP theme.

Whoever wins. We lose.
MAGIC ROUNDABOUT!!!!!

You seem to be making a big deal about this "CHAMPION OF LOVE" stuff. However, are before you get so pissed off, have you considered the fact that maybe the villain is claiming to be a "CHAMPION OF LOVE" in order to better manipulate those around him?
Cult leaders often use such names, as do dictators, and it sounds like this particular character is both. Hardly anyone fills out their tax returns as BOB, DESTROYER OF WORLDS and then proceeds to list THE SOULS OF THE ETERNALLY DAMNED under in the box labeled "Assets".
Anyway, it isn't as if by making this movie they are ripping all existing copies of the overrated (no don't yell at me for saying its overrated, one of the reasons I have left off reading it so far is that there is no fucking way anything could live up to that much hype) book out of existence and then replacing them with copies of a PlayGirl issue featuring Isaac hisself. Just by doing this they aren't destroying your youth, removing your memories, or controlling you in any way.

Well, being a big Asimov fan, I'm... not all that upset about it, frankly. Hell, they might not even get around to actually making the movie. If they do, even if it's done 'wrong', it might still be a good movie, and if not... I can sit there snickering about how dumb those Hollywood guys are for getting it all wrong, pointing out to whoever I go with that 'it really happened THIS way' and such. Granted, it's been a couple years since I've read the Foundation series, so I'm a bit rusty.. but I'll be sure to brush up if they do make the movie.

Speaking of Asimov, I think I'll go read Nemesis again. Someone should make that one into a movie... with Elijah Wood as the voice of Erythro. (Or maybe not.)

Just by doing this they aren't destroying your youth, removing your memories, or controlling you in any way.

Yeah, that's what the government is for. ;)

Hajekistan, that is a good point. For a while I did think like that. But it just doesn't fit the the Mule. This guy isn't a normal cult leader. He doesn't rule by trickery and deceiving his followers, this guy controls their very minds with the tiniest of effort. He doesn't even hide it from the people he controls. Let me give you the example of Han Pritcher.

Han Pritcher was a Captain in the Foundation Navy, Intelligence division ('Spy stuff' as it is often called). He's also a member of a rebel underground trying to overthrow the oppressive monarchy that overthrew the democratic government three generations ago. Once the Mule conquers the Foundation Pritcher goes underground for real, assumes a different name and goes to work in a factory. But he still keeps in contact with the Underground and they form a plan. A suicide bombing, plain and simple. Pritcher will carry a nuclear warhead straight to the Mule and set it off. He hates the Mule to such an extent that he's willing to kill himself to get M. The bombing fails due to the Mule having spies within the Underground to warn him and he captures Pritcher. But he doesn't kill him, oh no. The man is to good of an asset to waste. What does he do? Convert him. In the blink of an eye, with no talking required. The Mule messes with Pritchers mind and makes him eternally and unquestionably loyal. There were no "Come join the winning side!" speaches no "I'm in the right here" not even any long and complex hypnotizm sessions. You blink, and suddenly every thought is love for the Mule (But before you say "That's where he gets the title from!", it is a sick and twisted love based on the enslavement of a persons mind.). Or maybe every thought is suddenly hatred and fear for the Mule, as it is with Magnifico, the Mules clown who lives in such absolute terror of the Mule that it has to be artificially induced for the Mules own pleasure.

The Mules makes no effort to hide his plans or his motivations. He doesn't claim to be working for some higher power and he doesn't claim that he is a higher power. He is a mutant, a genetic freak, and he says so. He also doesn't surround himself with flamboyant and impressive titles and palaces qand riches. His title is merely 'First Citizen' and he lives completely alone in a huge building no different from any other (except in its size).

Try as I might, I just don't get where the title comes from.

Jellybadgeria, but what about those who haven't read Asimovs work? People who get the wrong idea? After I, Robot came out in theatres no less than 10 of my friends, all rather smart individuals, said "Man, that was just a Terminator knockoff. Machines controlling the world. Asimov can't write for shit." They then refused to read my copy of I, Robot in the belief that it was the same as the movie. The same with Bicentennial man (Which came out a few years ago). People see these movies and get the wrong impression of Asimov. Since Asimov is now dead, he died in '92, his works all we have to remember. His legacy. If these movies keep missing the mark then people get the wrong idea and his legacy dies. I don't want that.

BUMP since, in my I, Robot thread, people comment on the possible Foundation movies and I don't think it'd be right for me to make another thread ranting about an Asimov movie

...was it mysteriously dispatched by an Imperial cruiser? I know you just stitched the old into the new, but...where'd the new posts go to?

Uh...you lost me.

I made this thread a few weeks ago, I just BUMPed it since people were asking about the Foundation movies in the thread about the I, Robot novel cover

And here I go again, ranting about another Isaac Asimov Book-to-Movie conversion. The riot I raised over I, Robot is still ringing in my ears. Anyway, this one is even worse than that travesty.

Isaac Asimovs Foundation Trilogy, composed of Foundation, Foundation & Empire, and Second Foundation, is one of the finest pieces of writing in the entire 20'th Century. It received a special Hugo Award for Best All Time Series. Not just Best Series of the Year, or Decade, or even Century, but All time. It is the basis for almost all modern science fiction. It is my all-time favorite written piece (and I'm the guy who reads ancient Greek literature for fun, so you know I know what I'm talking about) and has had countless awards heaped upon its head. In short, it is just one damn fine piece of work. Yet even it is not safe from the Hell Beasts of Hollywood.

The rights to the series were sold long ago, a movie has been 'in the works' for a long time. Right now it's still in the Pre-Pre-Preproduction stages. They have the rights, they want to make a movie, and that's pretty much it. Oh, and they have a general idea of how they want to make the movie. The way they want characters portrayed on the big screen and such. Do you want a Vader look (Big and imposing) or an Emperor look (Old and weak but wise)? Superman (Innately powerful) or Batman (Training and technology)? I think you get the idea. Well, when they described how The Mule will look I nearly shot myself.

The Mule, a Mutant with the power to alter the emotional makeup of humanity, is evil through and through. He's also insane. Brilliant and powerful, but still insane. Due to his being a Mutant his body is horribly deformed. He still has the normal number of limbs and such, but he's extremely sickly and thin, his joints aren't exactly perfect, and he has a bit of a beak. Yes, a beak. Well, after a childhood of torment and ridicule (Kids really can be cruel) he discovers his mental powers. Pissed off at the entire Universe he swears vengeance and sets out to conquer each and every single person in the entire Galaxy; and the fact that he can alter the emotions of everybody and make his mightiest enemies suddenly eternally loyal to him makes it pretty easy for him to succeed. He's not a cruel despot, but he's still a despot. He's conquering the Galaxy purely out of spite, to take vengeance upon everybody for his miserable childhood. In the movie he's going to be portrayed as a Champion of Love. Where the fuck does that come from?

The guy is destroying the very essence of the peoples he's conquered, forcing them to have the emotions he wants them to have. He has halted a thousand year plan to forge an eternal and Galaxy-spanning benevolent government. He has actually killed people purely with emotion, making them feel grief so intense as to die from it. Where the hell is Love playing a factor?

Want to know where love plays a role in the story? The only contact he has with it? When a woman genuinely likes him for him, not due to his emotional control, he falls in love with her and doesn't tamper with her mind. She then thwarts him in his plan for Galactic conquest. Love is the reason he lost.

What the hell is wrong with Hollywood?Its fucking tragic. The only films that are uniformly worse than those based on books are the ones which are based on computer games.

Just do what I do, and don't watch it.

You seem to be making a big deal about this "CHAMPION OF LOVE" stuff. However, are before you get so pissed off, have you considered the fact that maybe the villain is claiming to be a "CHAMPION OF LOVE" in order to better manipulate those around him?
Cult leaders often use such names, as do dictators, and it sounds like this particular character is both. Hardly anyone fills out their tax returns as BOB, DESTROYER OF WORLDS and then proceeds to list THE SOULS OF THE ETERNALLY DAMNED under in the box labeled "Assets".
Anyway, it isn't as if by making this movie they are ripping all existing copies of the overrated (no don't yell at me for saying its overrated, one of the reasons I have left off reading it so far is that there is no fucking way anything could live up to that much hype) book out of existence and then replacing them with copies of a PlayGirl issue featuring Isaac hisself. Just by doing this they aren't destroying your youth, removing your memories, or controlling you in any way.Thats a perfectly good point, but the thing is, the Mule was almost completely devoid of such subtlety. Why manipulate people by pretending to be good when you could just permanently adjust their minds to make them not rebel against you? Its logically inconsistant, as well as inconsistant with the book itself and the Mule's character.

Sorry for the previous post I made. I got confused, my bad.

No prob, on these forums everything looks the same

Too true. Klonor, I had an idea I talked about with friends a while back. We were all big fans of LOTR, but one thing we all agreed upon was that Jackson's treatment left out enough material that we're all waiting for a future version, perhaps serialized, that would be utterly faithful, along the line sof what the Sci-fi channel did for Dune.

Such a colossal undertaking would make it almost certainly prohibitively expensive to make, but if it were sold as some form of 'pay-per-view'-style event, there'd be enough widespread appeal to carry it off.

How about something similar for Asimov? Sure, it'd have less broad-base appeal, but the people who'd be interested would be more likely to shell out for the real deal. Niche programming. Whaddaya think?

I actually just saw Sci-Fi's adaption of Dune and, though it naturally had errors, it was a lot closer to the novel than any other adaption I've ever seen.

I think it'd be great to do something like it with Asimovs work.

Too true. Klonor, I had an idea I talked about with friends a while back. We were all big fans of LOTR, but one thing we all agreed upon was that Jackson's treatment left out enough material that we're all waiting for a future version, perhaps serialized, that would be utterly faithful, along the line sof what the Sci-fi channel did for Dune.

Such a colossal undertaking would make it almost certainly prohibitively expensive to make, but if it were sold as some form of 'pay-per-view'-style event, there'd be enough widespread appeal to carry it off.

How about something similar for Asimov? Sure, it'd have less broad-base appeal, but the people who'd be interested would be more likely to shell out for the real deal. Niche programming. Whaddaya think?
The problem with niche programming is it only appeals to a niche. Theres something to be said for an adaptation of something that brings about a broad fanbase, but not when it comes at the complete cost of the project's integrity.

I'd so like to see Wienis' plans go up in smoke. And the huge generators on Siwenna. And Anselm Haut Rodrig. I always tried reading Rodrig's dialogue as though it were a voice I could actually listen to. When I'd heard of plans to make a film of it all, I tought I'd have my chance...space be damned!

Having just read the whole series for the first time, and was just thinking "gosh it's nice that Hollywood hasn't managed to turn it into a bastardized, stupid, dumbed-down, action-oriented, trendy, inaccurate, unfaithful rendition" when I saw this.

::shoots self in face::

fuck Hollywood.

They can't touch Asimov.

But what will annoy me is all the people who will consider themsleves Asimov fans who haven't read the book, or didn't read the book til they saw the movie (and probably think the movie is better). And all the memorabilia. And how they'll probably get John Williams or some other shitty overhyped hack to do the music. And how it won't resemble the book but some fat-assed movie director's "vision" or worse, "imagining" or "interpretation" of the book.

Lastly, it annoys me that people are fucking idiots.

I guess that's a digression. Sorta.

I think I've found my soul mate!

Will you marry me?

Hajekistan, that is a good point. For a while I did think like that. But it just doesn't fit the the Mule. This guy isn't a normal cult leader. He doesn't rule by trickery and deceiving his followers, this guy controls their very minds with the tiniest of effort. He doesn't even hide it from the people he controls. Let me give you the example of Han Pritcher.

Han Pritcher was a Captain in the Foundation Navy, Intelligence division ('Spy stuff' as it is often called). He's also a member of a rebel underground trying to overthrow the oppressive monarchy that overthrew the democratic government three generations ago. Once the Mule conquers the Foundation Pritcher goes underground for real, assumes a different name and goes to work in a factory. But he still keeps in contact with the Underground and they form a plan. A suicide bombing, plain and simple. Pritcher will carry a nuclear warhead straight to the Mule and set it off. He hates the Mule to such an extent that he's willing to kill himself to get M. The bombing fails due to the Mule having spies within the Underground to warn him and he captures Pritcher. But he doesn't kill him, oh no. The man is to good of an asset to waste. What does he do? Convert him. In the blink of an eye, with no talking required. The Mule messes with Pritchers mind and makes him eternally and unquestionably loyal. There were no "Come join the winning side!" speaches no "I'm in the right here" not even any long and complex hypnotizm sessions. You blink, and suddenly every thought is love for the Mule (But before you say "That's where he gets the title from!", it is a sick and twisted love based on the enslavement of a persons mind.). Or maybe every thought is suddenly hatred and fear for the Mule, as it is with Magnifico, the Mules clown who lives in such absolute terror of the Mule that it has to be artificially induced for the Mules own pleasure.

The Mules makes no effort to hide his plans or his motivations. He doesn't claim to be working for some higher power and he doesn't claim that he is a higher power. He is a mutant, a genetic freak, and he says so. He also doesn't surround himself with flamboyant and impressive titles and palaces qand riches. His title is merely 'First Citizen' and he lives completely alone in a huge building no different from any other (except in its size).

Try as I might, I just don't get where the title comes from.

Jellybadgeria, but what about those who haven't read Asimovs work? People who get the wrong idea? After I, Robot came out in theatres no less than 10 of my friends, all rather smart individuals, said "Man, that was just a Terminator knockoff. Machines controlling the world. Asimov can't write for shit." They then refused to read my copy of I, Robot in the belief that it was the same as the movie. The same with Bicentennial man (Which came out a few years ago). People see these movies and get the wrong impression of Asimov. Since Asimov is now dead, he died in '92, his works all we have to remember. His legacy. If these movies keep missing the mark then people get the wrong idea and his legacy dies. I don't want that.

He called himself the Mule becuase he was sterile, like a mule. ;)

Bingo.

No the real question is this: Will they bother to go into depth into the pre-Foundation part of time (before the Empire collapses), or will the movie just sort of...go? LOTR had a bit of a problem with this, because it had to reference to things that were not in the movies, and with Foundation...the problem would be staggering. I'd love to see how they depict the Core, and most importantly, how would they depict the big final twist at the end of the series?

Yeah, apperently they're going one further. They're just axing out the first book (Foundation itself). They're going to focus on the second two books (Foundation & Empire and Second Foundation) and have the first one kinda as a backstory, mentioned by characters in the movies and probably with some flashbacks, but not actually taking place.

So, that's no Hari Seldon, the man who actually formed the two Foundations, no Salvor Hardin, who kept the Foundation from destruction not once but twice, and no Hober Mallow, who first gave the Foundation its key to Galactic domination.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the little side adventure on Askone wont even get a passing mention.

...ahem. Magnifico, the Mules' clown?

I take it you don't understand that I left out the 'Magnifico is the Mule' part in an attempt to not have people disregard the previous statement.

I haven't read the Foundation Trilogy yet, so I can't comment on there. I will say, however, that the problem with Hollywood isn't so much that they turn out crap is that they turn out largely unimaginative stuff year after year. What you see excised from movie versions of books is usually not so much the "good" stuff as it is the stuff that the financiers of the movie are convinced won't sell, or sells a message contrary to what they as capitalists want to send. In some instances, this will work (c'mon, I realize LotR was great in book format, but you do all realize that if they had made a movie completely faithful to the book, they'd have spent most of their time walking, don't you?). In some other instances, it really doesn't, because it removes the zeitgeist of the work. Starship Troopers, for instance, is about the philosophical underpinnings of war and how it is carried out. I'm absolutely positive that the person with the money read this and said "Nobody will care about the preperation for war; Let's take the name and make a Space War--with boobs, cause they sell! Yeah, now we're talking. . ." And that's precisely what you got.

The funny thing is, though, that those movies that have done best in years past are often enough, those that stayed truest to their origins. LotR, for all Jackson's finesse, is actually pretty true to the series, and what was changed was often, oddly enough, an improvement. Tolkein was many things, but a humorist was not one of them, so the introduction of the reparte between Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn was IMO an improvement. Spiderman and Spiderman 2 are both very true to the integrity of the old Stan Lee/Jack Kirby-era Spiderman comics, and they are hugely successful. Same too with the X-men movies, although to a lesser extent (the original X-men was hampered not so much by its lack of faithfulness so much as trying to introduce so many new characters on-screen. X-men 2 didn't have this problem, and thus, the more cogent story).

Yeah, apperently they're going one further. They're just axing out the first book (Foundation itself). They're going to focus on the second two books (Foundation & Empire and Second Foundation) and have the first one kinda as a backstory, mentioned by characters in the movies and probably with some flashbacks, but not actually taking place.

So, that's no Hari Seldon, the man who actually formed the two Foundations, no Salvor Hardin, who kept the Foundation from destruction not once but twice, and no Hober Mallow, who first gave the Foundation its key to Galactic domination.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the little side adventure on Askone wont even get a passing mention.

*sound of cracking and rumbling*

Um....the entire story makes no sense without the Seldon Plan. Without explaining that part, there is no freaking point to the entire series. Not to mention that without seeing the earlier Seldon appearances in the Time Vault, the point of the Time Vault scene when the Mule attacks Terminus makes no sense whatsoever.

Ga-lax-y, some of my favorite parts of the entire series are in Foundation. I really don't want to have to boycott this one like I did with the I, Robot movie.

I assume they're gonna find some way to get across the info (Galactic Empire falling, Seldon forming the Foundations, Religious then Economic control, etc.). It just wont be very good.

The Mule was, for all his outward anger and the threat he posed to Seldon's ancient plan, a force of construction not destruction. Conceivably, if he had be left to do as he intended the Mule would have set up an empire as strong as the one Seldon predicted in half the time. In the book they describe the danger he poses by saying that after he died the empire would crumble again, but there is no reason to believe that if he was able to set up a galactic empire he would be so careless as to attach the emotions of his subjects to himself rather than to his position. In other words, even when he died the effects of his mutation on those around him would remain and they would maintaint he empire even if his replacement did not have his particular gifts. Also, from the point where the empire is stable and the emotional states of the entire population had been modified the stability of the empire would be perpetuated by socialization as effectively as it always has been. In short there is no reason to say that the Mule was "evil" only that he was divergent from Seldon's plan, which, while it may have been certain, could not be definitely called the best plan in terms of recreating the galactic empire as quickly as possible.

I say he was evil because he wanted to conquer the Galaxy for his own gain. He didn't want to conquer it for any altruistic reasons, he wanted revenge on humanity. The results might possibly have been good (Galactic unity in half the time Seldon had predicted) that doesn't make his motivations any less evil.

Also, in case you didn't notice, it did crumble once he died. The Foundation revolted, other planets broke away, and the Union crumbled. Many people would say it is the fault of the Second Foundation when they tampered with him on Rossem, but all they did was eliminate his expansion. He still held on to what he had and when he died so did his Empire.

Look at it this way: People don't like being oppressed with no say in government. He might have been a nice dictator, but he was still a dictator. People don't like that (As can be seen by Pritchers attempted suicide bombing). He was able to saty in power due to his mental power, but his successor didn't have it and thus he wasn't able to keep his control. Want to know how I know this? It happened! Read Second Foundation, half the book is after the Mule is dead and everything he built is dead, too.

One last thing: You propose he would have mentally changed the entire Galaxy. The Mule himself stated that was impossible. I doubt he even controlled more than a thousand people (but the actual total is never given). He actually gave a good analogy: Just because a weight lifter can lift 500 pounds doesn't mean he wants to do so constantly. The Mule could instantly change peoples emotions, but it was hard and took effort. That's why he militarily conquered his enemies, he couldn't control their entire planets.

The Mule wasn't evil.

Sure - he had an agenda, and he 'coerced' those around him - but his plan was to create an Empire.

The reason the Second Foundation opposed him wasn't because he was creating an empire - but, purely, because he was an individual, and their calculations said that an empire formed around an individual would be temporary... regardless of empathy, coercion, etc.

Note: The main reason that the Mule's empire crumbled after his death was that the Foundation(s) forced it to crumble. Since Seldon's Plan didn't allow for the Mule - there is no way to actually be sure that the Mule's Empire would have collapsed naturally.

But, the ultra-conservative Foundation(s) decided that it was better to risk another few hundred years of slow recovery, than try to work with the Mule Legacy.

Also - maybe it's just the way I read it, but the Mule was a Champion of Love, in a way. The way I read it, he ALLOWED himself to be re-programmed, once he had known 'love'.

The Mule could instantly change peoples emotions, but it was hard and took effort. That's why he militarily conquered his enemies, he couldn't control their entire planets.

- That would of course depend on the size of the planet in question. He seemed to have no trouble effecting most of the Independent Traders of Haven, for example.

maybe it's just the way I read it, but the Mule was a Champion of Love, in a way. The way I read it, he ALLOWED himself to be re-programmed, once he had known 'love'.

- Bull ca-ca. It's just the way you read it.

The Mule's evil might not have been apparent to the Mule himself, but is evidenced by his usurpation of the Plan, continued even after being made aware of the goals of the Foundations. The effects of his malicious, self-serving tampering might not have been obvious to the leaders of the First Foundation, but were, painfully so, to the leaders of the Second.

Any man who risked millenia of needless human suffering in order to satisfy his urge to rule unopposed cannot be described as a Champion of anything save his own Self-Interest.

- That would of course depend on the size of the planet in question. He seemed to have no trouble effecting most of the Independent Traders of Haven, for example.



- Bull ca-ca. It's just the way you read it.

The Mule's evil might not have been apparent to the Mule himself, but is evidenced by his usurpation of the Plan, continued even after being made aware of the goals of the Foundations. The effects of his malicious, self-serving tampering might not have been obvious to the leaders of the First Foundation, but were, painfully so, to the leaders of the Second.

Any man who risked millenia of needless human suffering in order to satisfy his urge to rule unopposed cannot be described as a Champion of anything save his own Self-Interest.

Why is usurping Seldon's plan evil? Seldon's Plan wasn't perfect - and it was only one possible route to a 'better' time - which is explored more in later books.

And, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the Second Foundation are ALSO self-serving tamperers.

Interesting though - you don't realise how your last line (aimed at the Mule) could also be aimed at Seldon.

If the Mule ahd been allowed to continue his expansion, and if the Foundation(s) hadn't set a plan of demolition in action on his empire - A New Empire may have been founded millennia earlier than Seldon allowed.

That's the thing - since the Mule couldn't be predicted, it is possible he could have changed the parameters enough that the EXACT SAME result as Seldon envisioned could be acheived, in a much shorter time.

Why is usurping Seldon's plan evil? Seldon's Plan wasn't perfect - and it was only one possible route to a 'better' time - which is explored more in later books.

And, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the Second Foundation are ALSO self-serving tamperers.

Interesting though - you don't realise how your last line (aimed at the Mule) could also be aimed at Seldon.

If the Mule ahd been allowed to continue his expansion, and if the Foundation(s) hadn't set a plan of demolition in action on his empire - A New Empire may have been founded millennia earlier than Seldon allowed.

That's the thing - since the Mule couldn't be predicted, it is possible he could have changed the parameters enough that the EXACT SAME result as Seldon envisioned could be acheived, in a much shorter time.

I'm very much aware that a New Empire mght have been founded millennia earlier - but there was no guarantee of stability for such an undertaking. Only via the Foundations could the transition to a stable Second Galactic Empire be made with anything like guarantees. I'm far from convinced that the Mule could have the exact same results as the Plan, as the Mule could not foresee the complexities of action/reaction in all the quadrillions of people involved. Emotional control can take one mutant only so far in this galaxy.

The likely outcome of too-rapid an expansion would have been an even more rapid implosion after the Mule's early demise. Then we'd've seen an even greater period of needless barbarism and conflict than the Plan was originally created to dispel, with no clear goal of a Second Empire to look forward to.

Yes the Second Foundation were tamperers, as necessitated by the crisis of the Mule, and the imperilment of the Plan. But the Second Foundation was part of that Plan; Seldon intended the coming Second Empire to be a stronger Empire than the first, with - yes, with - the (former) Second Foundationers exerting control over those of the (former) First.

R. Daneel Olivaw had any number of schemes cooking to achieve his OWN goal, of freeing robotkind from their ancient duties toward humankind. It's not clear whether he preferred any of the various paths to attain that goal.

Lastly, I'd said, "Any man who risked millenia of needless human suffering in order to satisfy his urge to rule unopposed cannot be described as a Champion of anything save his own Self-Interest." This is not a statement that is applicable to Hari Seldon, as Seldon did not risk 'millennia of needless human suffering' by instigating the Plan, his Plan called for limiting the interregnum to a thousand years instead of thirty thousand. Seldon had no interest in ruling anything, unopposed or not. His interest could hardly be described as 'self-interest', as he knew he would be dead within scant years of intiating the Plan. For all Seldon knew, it was a crapshoot whether anything'd come of his life-work. Knowing that R. Daneel Olivaw had other schemes elsewhere in the galaxy came as little comfort to Seldon.

Grave_n_idle:

1) His plan was to build an Empire so that he could get revenge upon all of humanity for his crappy childhood. How is that not evil?

2) Yes, you can see that the Mules Empire would have collapsed naturally because it did. The Mule died and his conquered territory revolted because, once the Fleet commanders and political leaders that he had converted died, there was nobody to control the masses who had been conquered and didn't like the Mule. It did happen, how can you say that it might not have happened?

3) How the hell could you have read it like that? The Second Foundation managed to penetrate his mental defences, despite his best efforts, because he was overcome with despair when he learned how successfully the Second Foundation had outwitted him and stolen his Empire from him. Where is Love any factor?

Dobbs Town:

He was able to influence certain parts of Haven, and only small parts (Like individual factories and groups of leaders), because his mental powers were boosted with the Visi-Sonor (A type of mental musical instrument) and because he did it so minutely. All he did was make them feel defeated and sad, just a tiny little mental push. He didn't make them suddenly love the Mule or do anything against their nature. Back to that weight lifter analogy before, it's the difference of rolling a 500 pound weight on the ground and lifting it over your head. One takes a lot more effort than the other.

Grave_n_idle:

1) His plan was to build an Empire so that he could get revenge upon all of humanity for his crappy childhood. How is that not evil?

2) Yes, you can see that the Mules Empire would have collapsed naturally because it did. The Mule died and his conquered territory revolted because, once the Fleet commanders and political leaders that he had converted died, there was nobody to control the masses who had been conquered and didn't like the Mule. It did happen, how can you say that it might not have happened?

3) How the hell could you have read it like that? The Second Foundation managed to penetrate his mental defences, despite his best efforts, because he was overcome with despair when he learned how successfully the Second Foundation had outwitted him and stolen his Empire from him. Where is Love any factor?



1) being vengeful isn't synonymous with being evil.

2) It could be argued that, the only reason that the Mule's empire fell apart after his death, was because of Second Foundation intervention, and the continued resistence of the First Foundation. If the Mule had been allowed... maybe even helped.... to continue as he planned, the ultimate result could have been a very different outcome.

3) You read it your way, I'll read it mine. Yes - he was outwitted... but I think, at some level, he chose to be.

I'm very much aware that a New Empire mght have been founded millennia earlier - but there was no guarantee of stability for such an undertaking. Only via the Foundations could the transition to a stable Second Galactic Empire be made with anything like guarantees. I'm far from convinced that the Mule could have the exact same results as the Plan, as the Mule could not foresee the complexities of action/reaction in all the quadrillions of people involved. Emotional control can take one mutant only so far in this galaxy.

The likely outcome of too-rapid an expansion would have been an even more rapid implosion after the Mule's early demise. Then we'd've seen an even greater period of needless barbarism and conflict than the Plan was originally created to dispel, with no clear goal of a Second Empire to look forward to.

Yes the Second Foundation were tamperers, as necessitated by the crisis of the Mule, and the imperilment of the Plan. But the Second Foundation was part of that Plan; Seldon intended the coming Second Empire to be a stronger Empire than the first, with - yes, with - the (former) Second Foundationers exerting control over those of the (former) First.

R. Daneel Olivaw had any number of schemes cooking to achieve his OWN goal, of freeing robotkind from their ancient duties toward humankind. It's not clear whether he preferred any of the various paths to attain that goal.

Lastly, I'd said, "Any man who risked millenia of needless human suffering in order to satisfy his urge to rule unopposed cannot be described as a Champion of anything save his own Self-Interest." This is not a statement that is applicable to Hari Seldon, as Seldon did not risk 'millennia of needless human suffering' by instigating the Plan, his Plan called for limiting the interregnum to a thousand years instead of thirty thousand. Seldon had no interest in ruling anything, unopposed or not. His interest could hardly be described as 'self-interest', as he knew he would be dead within scant years of intiating the Plan. For all Seldon knew, it was a crapshoot whether anything'd come of his life-work. Knowing that R. Daneel Olivaw had other schemes elsewhere in the galaxy came as little comfort to Seldon.

Ulitmately, there was no guarantee for Seldon's Plan, either.

It was fine when dealing with knowns... but look what happens every time a spanner crops up, the Plan goes to the wall... and, while that is the PURPOSE of the Second Foundation, the very necessity for a Second Foundation shows that the Plan was viewed, even by Seldon, as limited.

The Mule didn't need to see the complexity... all he had to do was build a working empire. If Seldon had turned up a thousand years earlier, there would have been no NEED for the Plan or the Foundations.... so - if the Mule built a stable empire, with the Foundation members having access to the 'mechanics' of Seldon's math AND a functioning empire - there is no reason why a perpetual empire couldn't have been created during the Mule's reign.

All it would have taken is HELP from the Foundation(s), instead of HARM.

Other Point: Seldon's Plan did call for a period of suffering. A necessary period, to lessen the duration of the period between empires - but still, a willing institution of suffering. The Mule may have had selfish motives, but his Plan called for only what the Seldon Plan called for - a limited period of suffering. After all, the Mule wasn't immortal, and wasn't going to be having many offspring.

1) I don't see how you could view vengeance on that level as being anything but evil.

2) So, you're saying that if his enemies hadn't fought him then he would have succeeded. This is true. Just like Rome could still be standing, the Incas would still be in existence, and Hitler might have conquered the world. Your very statement is a the perfect example of why you're wrong, it's that he was defeated so easily. The Second Empire that the First and Second Foundations were working towards would have lasted for dozens, maybe even hundreds of millenia. Also, it would compose the entire Galaxy. The Mules Empire, at its height, controlled 1/10 of the Galaxies physical space and 1/15 of its population. Even if the Second Foundatiion hadn't stopped his expansion he still wouldn't have even come close to conquering the rest of the Galaxy before he died (Which was before he was 40).

3) I really just don't get what you're saying here. I really don't. Firstly, he fought tooth and nail to stop the Second Foundation (He even obliterated a completely neutral world because he thought it was the Second Foundaion). Secondly, even if he did want to be defeated (Which I say he didn't!) where was the love that you say he encountered?

The way I read it, he ALLOWED himself to be re-programmed, once he had known 'love'.

The only love he encoutnered was five years earlier and the love that I mentioned in the opening post. Thirdly, why would he want to be re-programmed? Why not just say "I've seen love, I see what I'm doing is wrong, I will now work to do good." It just doesn't make sense.