NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, as I've been reading through my amazing books I've come to the conclusion that World War One is by far the root of basically all the problems of the 20th century.

If it weren't for World War One, Germany wouldn't have been busted up and ruined. Without a devastated Germany Hitler couldn't have come to power. Hence no European WWII.

If it weren't for World War One, the Bolsheviks in Russia wouldn't have been able to gain the support that they got as a result of the horrendous Russian losses, hence, no USSR. (and therefore no cold war)

If it weren't for World War One, Japan would not have gotten any German possesions in the Pacific. Thus not giving the Japanese the further taste for Empire. Hence no Pacific World War II.

If it weren't for World War One, the US wouldn't have had such a strong isolationist movement, and the US would have been more open on the world stage, and not so remote feeling.

And these are just some of the bad things that resulted from WWI.
Agree or disagree, add or detract, do whatever. Just don't hurl infected corpsese over the city walls, that's not nice.

If it weren't for World War One, Japan would not have gotten any German possesions in the Pacific. Thus not giving the Japanese the further taste for Empire. Hence no Pacific World War II. The Japanese had a taste for an empire which stretched more than just from WWI. Remember the Russo-Japanese War of 1906. Their quest for an empire was started with the Meiji reforms of the Japanese islands. It was further accelerated when the Great White Fleet of the USN arrived in Tokyo harbor on its world tour.

If it weren't for World War One, the US wouldn't have had such a strong isolationist movement, and the US would have been more open on the world stage, and not so remote feeling. The US had a strong isolationist tendency before WWI. Its the reason we stayed out of it until 1917. It was British/Commonwealth, French, European problem. Had nothing to do with us unless they started targeting us.

Agree or disagree, add or detract, do whatever. Just don't hurl infected corpsese over the city walls, that's not nice.
Huh?

I came to that conclusion a few months back as I was researching the Space Race and the Cold War. Although I don't think I went as far back as WW1...that's like...B.C. era right there...

Rasicm, assorted genocide, and poverty can't be blamed on WWI.

Without WWI, the Germans would not have decided that wars were a bad thing, so no need for Hitler. WWII still happens.

Russia was already unstable, and the laughing stock of Europe due to them still having serfs. Although the Revolution may have taken longer, it was on the cards already.

Japan was already looking outside her borders, and had taken part in crushing the Boxer rebellion, and slapped the Russians around, and IIRC acquired Korea. So they'd have still gone into Manchuria.

The US swings between intervention and isolation, depending on their most recent bloody nose. The Maine, the U-boat campaigns, Pearl Harbour and 9/11 are examples of being shocked into Intervention; WWI trenches and Vietnam are example of the US retreating into isolation. This process seems to continue no matter what.

It's true that there's a history behind everything, and you can trace causes back indefinitely. One standard German history starts "In the beginning, was Napoleon.." the book then explains how Imperial France had always sought to keep the German states divided, and how Nappy's bungled handling of diplomacy allowed a united Germany to rise up for the first time in history.
German/French diplomacy needs to be traced back to Charlemagne's decision to divide his empire; for that matter the desire for a United Europe, which fathered internationalism, goes back to the desire to reunite Charlemagne's empire. His empire was meant to reflect the glory of Rome; which claimed descent from Troy; which was a trading state similar to the Minoans who had proceeded them -
- and who knows what happened before that?

Of course, if you trace it all back to Eden, remember it's not an Apple that's to blame. That's Microsoft propoganda; when Bill Gates gets time travel you'll understand why God decided that humans were just a horrible mistake!

Rasicm, assorted genocide, and poverty can't be blamed on WWI.
Hitler successfully blamed the loss of WW1 on the Jews
Poverty was a result of the massive inflation that rose due to the weakened German government post-WW1

Ugh. Too many OTHER possible reasons as well for it being 'World War One is by far the root of basically all the problems of the 20th century'.

It possibly lead to problems, but I don't think it's THE ROOT.

THE ROOT is us human.

Without WWI, the Germans would not have decided that wars were a bad thing, so no need for Hitler. WWII still happens.
huh? thats rubbish. ww2 wouldnt have happened without ww1.

Russia was already unstable, and the laughing stock of Europe due to them still having serfs. Although the Revolution may have taken longer, it was on the cards already. russia was always on the brink of revolution. sooner or later it would probably happened yes, but i doubt that it would be a communist one.

Japan was already looking outside her borders, and had taken part in crushing the Boxer rebellion, and slapped the Russians around, and IIRC acquired Korea. So they'd have still gone into Manchuria. agreed.

huh? thats rubbish. ww2 wouldnt have happened without ww1.
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True, it would be called WW1


Meaning WW1 or not, Europe would have faced a huge war sooner or later. there was too much tension between countries.

I came to that conclusion a few months back as I was researching the Space Race and the Cold War. Although I don't think I went as far back as WW1...that's like...B.C. era right there...

Well, it's actually not all that difficult to trace modern problems back lots further than WW I. For example, the fractured Balkans resulted in significant part because successive waves of Islamic invaders forced conversion to Islam by the sword ... "convert to Islam or die!"

Intresting Topic.

I think youve majorly overlooking the effects of the post war such as the division of colonies, so much blood has been spilt as coutries were simply draw up out of lines in the sand, comprising several ethic groups that hate each other dosent bode well.

As for no WW2 bull crap, have you ever played red alert lol.
No really the Russian monarchy was doomed from 1909 ish japense russian war cant rember the exact date and cant be botherd to look it up :D .
Serouily a war between communism and the Imperial powers such as Britian and France would have been invetible as the goverments of these countries had a great dislike for communism and A war between Japan and American was probally just as likely due to the fact both countries were the pasific powers till the emergance of the china in the post war peroid. In fact it probally would have been France Britian and German vs. Communist Russian by the 1950 at the latest and likely that a war between American and Japan would have broken out that would have drawn in The european powers due to there colonies

Basically, what has already been said about not being able to stop at WWI for the roots of problems is correct, the roots go much deeper. However, it is possible to pick a starting point for the problems that caused WWI.

With the collapse of the Carolingian Empire (that's Charlemagne's Empire), it was divided into three, the Western Kingdom (became France), the Middle Kingdom (was dissoluted) and the Eastern Kingdom (became the Holy Roman Empire). Over many years the Holy Roman Empire devolved into several, powerful, feuding Germanic kingdoms, rather than a united force. Eventually the title Holy Roman Emperor was nothing more than just that, a title, it had absolutely no legislative power over the other Germanic kingdoms, though it remained until 1836, if I remember correctly. Then, in the 1200s you have the "East European Crusades" (this is not an official term, I just like to dub them that), where three Germanic states picked up a massive military force and forcibly invaded Poland and Lithuania to turn them Catholic. These states were Brandenburg, Livonia and Teutonia; Brandenburg formed Prussia, Livonia formed the Livonian Order and Tuetonia formed the Teutonic Order, all in the north of Europe around the Baltic.

Soon enough, Poland became a super power when it joined with Lithuania, and it pinned Prussia underfoot as a vassal. Prussia became increasingly powerful over time, and by the 1600s was a power to be reckoned with. It reunited with its brethren, Brandenburg, in the 17th Century, and over the next 100 years, as Poland-Lithuania's power wained, divided the Poland-Lithuania between themselves, Austria-Hungary, Russia and Sweden. After this, they started gaining more and more power and influence, and through politics added parts of the Holy Roman Empire in the West to their domain. By the late 1700s they were now vying for the title of Holy Roman Emperor with Austria-Hungary (it had been Austria-Hungary's title for the last 200 odd years). This newfound power made their former allies very suspicious, and the friendly relations between them and Russia quickly deteriorated, as it did with Austria-Hungary. With the latter, this erupted into war several times as they vied for leadership of United Germania, until Prussia decisively defeated them in the 19th Century, winning the title once and for all. When they did, Napoleon VIII (I think it was the VIII) was none to happy, and he went to war to prevent a unified Germany. France was the most powerful European country at this time, but they were kicked hard by Prussia, and German was unified in 1876 (notice the proximity to the outbreak of WWI) after the Prussians marched into Paris and demanded the French relinquish all claims to German soil.

Once Germany was unified, and Austria-Hungary was a vassal of this new Germany, it was the single greatest military and economic power in the world. After Germany had been fractured for so many years, this was a huge shock to the world, and the rest of Europe became severely suspicious and prejudiced against them. France tried to counter balance by throwing its weight behind Sardinia-Piedmont, a northern Italian city-state that bordered with France, and it unified Italy in the same year. France was terrified of Germany, and Russia began to fear a German invasion. Bismarck was no fool either, he knew that France and Russia feared him, and he began to fear the two teaming up and invading from both sides. THIS is what brought about WWI, all these tensions and political weavings over many, many, many centuries. In a sense, it may have been possible to avert it if the world had been more understanding towards Prussia's unification, and given them reason to think that they were safe from invasion. Then again, Bismarck might've thought it was a great oppurtunity to kick some tail in that case. Who knows?

Well, that's it in a nutshell. Sorry, but I had to explain it all after this comment:

I came to that conclusion a few months back as I was researching the Space Race and the Cold War. Although I don't think I went as far back as WW1...that's like...B.C. era right there...

Point is, you can't understand any one point in history without understanding everything that comes before it. And one more point:

Japan was already looking outside her borders, and had taken part in crushing the Boxer rebellion, and slapped the Russians around, and IIRC acquired Korea. So they'd have still gone into Manchuria.

Yes, you are right, they were already feeling outwards since the arrival of the American fleet in Japan in the 19th century, but they hadn't conquered Korea. They attempted to invade but Korea repelled it. Quite amazing really, the Koreans were outnumbered and technologically backwards, but they quickly adapted the Japanese musket and cannon, and then they produced the famous Korean turtle war ship, which was strong enough to repel the Japanese invasion fleets. Remarkable for such a little, backwards country.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. I love my history. :D

Well, when you have absolute monarchy, or some form of dictatorship of some kind, tensions are bound to arise due to lineage claims, the challenges of prestige, competition between rival powers to press the claim of pre-eminence.

I think the most significant event was the emergence of united Germany, which was to destroy the agreed deténte between the five great powers in the Concert of Europe. Of course at that time, all the great powers were almost absolute monarchies, with the exception of Great Britain.

Italian unification happened BEFORE german unification.

I'm going to be even more controversial, and say that the best thing would have been a German victory against France in 1914, ie the Schlieffen Plan succeeds, and Paris falls resulting in French capitulation.

The British withdraw from continental Europe, and Russia is decisively defeated a few months later at the battle of Tannenburg and the Masurian lakes. With Serbia crushed, France forced to surrender and the BEF withdrawn to the British isles, the Russian tsar capitulates.

France is made a puppet, and large tracts of Russian land become Ukraine, Baltic states etc (probably also German puppets). However, with the Russian army still firmly under the Tsar's control, a brief communist uprising is crushed (the Germans would have helped him against the likes of such a revolution in peace time - after all the Kaiser and the Tsar were cousins)

Even if Britain and Germany did not make peace, neither could harm the other. They may have shadowboxed for ages, but also they may have made peace realising the futility of war.

With Germany the undisputed master of mainland europe, continental warfare is a thing of the past, even though war still remains a viable policy option. Millions of young men, like Wilfred Owen, Sassoon and Erich Maria survive and their talents are allowed to develop.

A triumvirate of Britain, USA and Germany now dominate the world, and I daresay we would have been better for it. The French could never have pulled off what the Germans did in WWII despite being landed in the same situation (no-one can fight like the Germans).

Without communism in Russia, the Tsar is however eventually forced to become a constitutional monarch, but Russia's economic and social development continues much as it did during the pre-WWI years (which was forward).

No holocaust, no socialism/communism - the world would have been a much better place.