NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm curious as to what your positions are on BOTH issues -- and WHY. Pro-choice and Pro-death penalty? Let the innocent live but kill the killers?
It seems a lot of people have conflicting or inconsistent views on "life"...

I think a fetus is not life, but a criminal is life.

That sums it up for me.

Pro-choice, anti-death penalty.

I think a fetus is not life, but a criminal is life.

That sums it up for me.

Pro-choice, anti-death penalty.

So you're in favor of protecting the rights of "persons..."
I can see that.

That's why repbulicans are the biggest hypocrits on the planet.

I'm curious as to what your positions are on BOTH issues -- and WHY. Pro-choice and Pro-death penalty? Let the innocent live but kill the killers?
It seems a lot of people have conflicting or inconsistent views on "life"...

No...it's not a wrong opinon whatsoever.

Babies have no need to die, no matter what woman thinks that she has the right to kill them. Horrible criminals, on the other hand, deserve to die. The difference is as simple as guilty and innocent.

Think of it the other way around, in the liberal point of view. Kill babies but not rapists and murders? Honestly...my "inconsistant view on life" is far from the greatest problem here.

a fetus is a human life, and so is a criminal

but in some occational cases that criminal has done something so horrendus as to deserve the death penalty, where as the fetus has done nothing to warrent its murder

That's why repbulicans are the biggest hypocrits on the planet.

Look what I just wrote. Democrats advocate killing babies but not convincted rapists and murders. Democrats are more concerned with the accused than the victim. Democrats are only tolerant of their own ideas. Et cetera...et cetera....et cetera...see how easy it is?

Be mature, be civilized, and be intelligent. Don't just run your mouth about how much better you are than the evil "repbulicans."

I am 100% PROLIFE!
I am anti abortion- it is evil and should be banned
I am anti death penalty- 2 wrongs don't make a right
I am anti "mercy killing"- don't kill the older people, they are wiser, and have just as much right to life.

"LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
-Thomas Jefferson
That basicly sums it up.

Pro-choice and anti-death penalty for me as well.

Democrats advocate killing babies
You need to brush up on your terminology.

but not convincted rapists and murders. Democrats are more concerned with the accused than the victim.
We protect the accused's rights. How would you like to be "tried" in China, where you are sentenced without jury, sent to jail, or executed quietly? When you are wrongly accused (happens all the time) be glad liberals are there to defend you against the "fry him!" crowd.

Democrats are only tolerant of their own ideas.
No, closeminded people are only tolerant of their own ideas. Surely you see there closeminded people across the political spectrum?

You need to brush up on your terminology.?


thats more than arguable

We protect the accused's rights. How would you like to be "tried" in China, where you are sentenced without jury, sent to jail, or executed quietly? When you are wrongly accused (happens all the time) be glad liberals are there to defend you against the "fry him!" crowd.?

your talking about a misscarriage of justice, we're talking about the end result of justice

justice is equaly misscarried if the jury is forbidden from passing down an appropriet sentence

No, closeminded people are only tolerant of their own ideas. Surely you see there closeminded people across the political spectrum?

but the political parties those people support usually don't try to pass that closemindedness into legislation

Chodolo certainly has a point here. Besides, it's been proven there's no effect on a country's (or state's) criminality to kill offenders. Briefly : you kill this one, another one's gonna pick on the "future victim" you think you might have saved.

Pro-choice, pro-death penalty.

I'm in favor of aborting unwanted/nonviable fetuses, and the execuion of those that have proven themselves unable to function peacefully in civilized society.

thats more than arguable
Well a single cell zygote is not a baby, I can't see how anyone can sucessfully argue that, but it doesn't stop them from trying to outlaw all early abortions. You can talk about the difference between a fetus and a baby, but I don't see how a clump of cells with no brain can be considered a human being.

your talking about a misscarriage of justice, we're talking about the end result of justice

justice is equaly misscarried if the jury is forbidden from passing down an appropriet sentence
Steel Butterflies said Democrats (liberals) are more concerned with the accused than the victim. I showed the necessity of balance.

but the political parties those people support usually don't try to pass that closemindedness into legislation
Actually they do. That's the function of political parties...they pass their closeminded ideas into law that affect everyone.

Don't get into rhetorics... PLEASE! :'(

Well a single cell zygote is not a baby, I can't see how anyone can sucessfully argue that, but it doesn't stop them from trying to outlaw all early abortions. You can talk about the difference between a fetus and a baby, but I don't see how a clump of cells with no brain can be considered a human being.

in your eyes maybe, but there are another 110 million voters in America and most of them don't agree with you

Steel Butterflies said Democrats (liberals) are more concerned with the accused than the victim. I showed the necessity of balance.

like hell you did, if anything you only drove home the point

You need to brush up on your terminology.


We protect the accused's rights. How would you like to be "tried" in China, where you are sentenced without jury, sent to jail, or executed quietly? When you are wrongly accused (happens all the time) be glad liberals are there to defend you against the "fry him!" crowd.


No, closeminded people are only tolerant of their own ideas. Surely you see there closeminded people across the political spectrum?

If you hadn't noticed, I will tell you now. He called repbublicans, or however he spelled republicans, "hypocrits" without giving any proof or evidence or even a false statement to back up his baseless claim. I was merely showing him how easy it was to shoot identical claims back at him.

Look what I just wrote. Democrats advocate killing babies but not convincted rapists and murders. Democrats are more concerned with the accused than the victim. Democrats are only tolerant of their own ideas. Et cetera...et cetera....et cetera...see how easy it is?

Be mature, be civilized, and be intelligent. Don't just run your mouth about how much better you are than the evil "repbulicans."

I've said this a bunch of times on this board, but I'll say it again: niether of these positions are clear-cut, easy problems to deal with. Both issues ( capital punishment and abortion ) have have complex reasonings and undercurrents which are NOT *ahem* served by one line sound byte type rhetoric. Niether Democrat nor Republican is either tolerant or honest.

Let's start with abortion. I don't think anyone is actually FOR abortion. We all know what it is. We all know, whether pro life or pro choice, it's a baby that's not going to be. We all know that's bad. But, you can't have a fetus without a mother, and that mother has a life and a conscience as well, and has the free will to do what she pleases, whether bad or good. One thing to remember, is that (and this is verifiable) when abortions are illegal and extremely difficult to obtain, many times, unknowing and desperate women have gone to unsafe and dangerous lengths to obtain an abortion, thereby endangering thier own life in the process.

Same thing with the death penalty. There have been several studies that show states without the death penalty have lower overall murder rates. There have also been studies that show the legal expense to prosecute a death penalty case is two to three times more costly than a case prosecuted than a life imprisonment case. Many people also worry about the issue of granting the state the power to take the life of a person. Converse to that, some worry that person capable of the most heinous of crimes could eventually released to prey on an unsuspecting public. Neither of these are pleasing prospects.

Here's my take: abortions should be made available to those who want them, BUT they should not be allowed after a cerain point in the development of the fetus. Women should also need to be counciled and have birth control made freely available to them so an abortion can be prevented in the first place (and even that is controversial for some reason).I also think that there shouldn't be a death penalty, but the solution to reducing crime should be the reducing the problems that cause crimes to be committed in the first place.

I don't think you can drill either ones of these issues down to a simple guilty or not guilty. Remeber, as soon as you make a rule, you start having to make exceptions to that rule. Don't make the rule in the firstplace, make a guideline, which is easier to adhere to than a rule.

roach cliffs, read the post above your's for a clarification of what you quoted. my post and your first paragraph have the same point.

in your eyes maybe, but there are another 110 million voters in America and most of them don't agree with you
In this instance, YOU are wrong. Most people support early abortions, especially in case of rape or danger to the woman's health. Surely those same people do not believe a single cell is a human being equal to the worth of the mother.

like hell you did, if anything you only drove home the point
Huh? We're off on a tangent. He said liberals value the accused over the victim, I pointed out the necessity of standing up for the accused...or would you like a Chinese "trial"?

If you hadn't noticed, I will tell you now. He called repbublicans, or however he spelled republicans, "hypocrits" without giving any proof or evidence or even a false statement to back up his baseless claim. I was merely showing him how easy it was to shoot identical claims back at him.
Ah, you were responding to Alan. I would just ignore that troll.

I passed it or will pass it for all
my 3 nations
Santa- Nita
Havaii and
Heck Hell,
when I get the issue.

This would have been another
good public poll.

roach cliffs, read the post above your's for a clarification of what you quoted. my post and your first paragraph have the same point.

I quoted the wrong post. Sorry. I was trying to respnd to the 'republicans are hypocrites' and 'the guilty or not guilty' post. I'll try and be more carefull next time.

Pro-life, anti-death penalty. Life is a special thing, and I hate to see anyone's life terminated. Even a killer.

I am pro-choice. Not pro-life! Not pro-death! I do not believe ohter people should be able to alter my life by inflicting their views on me. It is a personal choice. NOT ONE THAT OLD WHITE MALES (the majority of politicians). I do not understand how people can let others rule over their lives as much as Americans do.

Roach Cliffs has explained himself better than anyone else, I'd say. Everything isn't a black-and-white issue.

I am pro life and do not support abortion unless it poses serious risk to the mother's health or it is the result of rape. However most abortions are done by pathetic females who had consentual sex and didn't take good enough precautions or even ayn precautions at all. Those women should not be allowed abortions. You wanna call it a single celled organism or a zygote, but every damn person typing here has been one of those in the past. Those organisms are well on their way to becoming a baby and possessing logic and feelings. Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean you weren't alive then.

Pro death penalty provided there is a large amount of evidence, not in these purely circumstantial cases. Somebody goes into the street and guns down a man in broad daylight and there were witnesses, then yes. But some mystery disappearance and then turning up of a body with little to nothing to really pin it on the accused but somehow is still guilty, then no death penalty. Two wrongs don't make a right? This isn't two wrongs. It's the consequence of one wrong being dealt with in a manner sought fit by a jury of peers. I'm willing to accept there is pure evil in the world, that not everyone is inherently good.

Also there's no such thing as Pro-Choice. It's Pro-Abortion. I support a woman's right to choose who she dates, what career she works for, what she'll have for dinner, what clothes to wear. Choose away. Pro-Choice doesn't mean pro choosing. It's just Pro-Abortion. Notice every Pro-Choice organization funds abortion programs, yet never any adoption agencies or real parenting programs (Planned Parenthood is just "It'll cost you over 100,000 dollars to raise this child. Get an abortion if you're not ready."). Yeah nice choices. It's PRO ABORTION.

LOL, Abortion!

If you got the means to raise your child, it becomes a choice. You chose to keep your baby - though you'd have been a real... can't find an appropriate word... if you had chosen abortion (having the means to raise your (legitimate) baby).

Also there's no such thing as Pro-Choice. It's Pro-Abortion. I support a woman's right to choose who she dates, what career she works for, what she'll have for dinner, what clothes to wear. Choose away. Pro-Choice doesn't mean pro choosing. It's just Pro-Abortion. Notice every Pro-Choice organization funds abortion programs, yet never any adoption agencies or real parenting programs (Planned Parenthood is just "It'll cost you over 100,000 dollars to raise this child. Get an abortion if you're not ready."). Yeah nice choices. It's PRO ABORTION.


I DO NOT NECESSARILY BELIEVE IN ABORTION! I DO NOT THINK I AM MATURE ENOUGH OR KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT MYSELF TO FORM SUCH A HUGE OPINION!
HOWEVER I DO KNOW THAT I WILL REFUSE TO LET OTHER S LET THEIR OPINIONS AFFECT ME WHEN I DO NOT WANT THEM TOO!

Pro-life, pro-death penalty. Pro-life because the right to life trumps the right to liberty. Pro-death penalty because certain people have shown themselves to be less than human.

Also there's no such thing as Pro-Choice. It's Pro-Abortion. I support a woman's right to choose who she dates, what career she works for, what she'll have for dinner, what clothes to wear. Choose away. Pro-Choice doesn't mean pro choosing. It's just Pro-Abortion. Notice every Pro-Choice organization funds abortion programs, yet never any adoption agencies or real parenting programs (Planned Parenthood is just "It'll cost you over 100,000 dollars to raise this child. Get an abortion if you're not ready."). Yeah nice choices. It's PRO ABORTION.
Patently incorrect. The vast majority of pro-choice women would not be able to choose to have an abortion themselves. Do not confuse pro-choice organizations with the pro-choice movement/population in general. To take a related, personal example, I am all for the freedom to own guns. Hell, I'm all for the freedom to carry concealed weapons. However, I do not currently and will never own a gun, because I find them distasteful. The issue is not whether I like guns or not, but whether I find it appropriate for the government to impede people's rights and be more involved in an aspect of people's lives in which the government has no business. This is the same as the pro-choice view on abortion; it is not regarded as a good thing overall, but rather as a right which the government should not be allowed to remove.

Before you start talking about abortion being tantamount to murder and the right of the government to protect the lives of it's citizens, know two things. First, people are pro-choice becasue they do not believe that a zygote/fetus/blastocyst can be considered a human being; as such, calling it murder is nonsensical. Second, I am an anarchist.

I am, due to personal morality, against the death penalty. It is too easy for the courts to mistakenly execute the innocent, which is unacceptable. Additionally, let's be honest. None of us knows what happens after death. If the athiests are right and it's just game over, where's the punishment? Incarcerate the folks for life without parole, in solitary if need be. I know I would be a whole lot more apprehensive about knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would never leave my lonely little cell for the rest of my life, than knowing that my life would be ended, with all the possabilities that carries.

Death penalty=Good in some ways,but bad in others. Their would be more killers if it weren't for it. Though we still have many. The killers get what they deserve,and their is nothing wrong with that.

Abortion=Stupid in most cases. Except in rape,or the possibility it might kill the woman.

Death penalty=Good in some ways,but bad in others. Their would be more killers if it weren't for it. Though we still have many. The killers get what they deserve,and their is nothing wrong with that.

How do you manage the keep these ideas alive? Death penalty does not prevent anything. Criminals don't think about the consequences while committing the crime. Or atleast they don't think they'll get caught. if you're from US (there aren't many options as you obviously live in a country where they have death penalty) how can you explain the fact that you have more murders per capita than any other western country?

Can we get off this idea that "pro-choice = pro-abortion"?

I fully advocate the right of a woman to be given impartial advice on all of her options regarding pregnancy and receive the necessary support. This doesn't automatically mean that I advocate abortion. I advocate freedom and education. Pro-choice, not pro-death.

You know what...

As long as there are children dieing in the 3rd world, terrorists bombing civilians, baby seals being clubed to make shoes out of them, poor and starving people, corrupt governments and religious nut cases killing doctors...

Abortion is at the bottom of my horrors of the world list.

I cannot believe people will put on their lion fur coat, leave their house with the lights still on wasting fossile fules, then get into their car to drive 2 3rds of a mile while ripping a hole in the atmosphear to go protest and kill a educated doctor to save a fetus!

Forget all the horrors in the world we must save fetuses! Forget that person being muged and that drug addict prostitute in the corner over there lets save people who havent even been born yet!

You know considering all the horrors in the world have been caused by humans do we realy need more people?

Death penalty=Good in some ways,but bad in others. Their would be more killers if it weren't for it. Though we still have many. The killers get what they deserve,and their is nothing wrong with that.


The states in the USA with the death penalty also have the highest murder rates. There goes that theory.

What irks me are the so-called "christians" who say that we can't judge people, and then call criminals evil and kill them. Sure, most murderers deserve to die, but it is not for the state to decide that.

Also, if a fetus is life, and a criminal is definitely alive, who says that one is more worthy of life than the other? Certainly not the Federal government! The only solution is to leave the death penalty up to individual states and abortion up to the pregnant mother.

You know what...

As long as there are children dieing in the 3rd world, terrorists bombing civilians, baby seals being clubed to make shoes out of them, poor and starving people, corrupt governments and religious nut cases killing doctors...

Abortion is at the bottom of my horrors of the world list.

I cannot believe people will put on their lion fur coat, leave their house with the lights still on wasting fossile fules, then get into their car to drive 2 3rds of a mile while ripping a hole in the atmosphear to go protest and kill a educated doctor to save a fetus!

Forget all the horrors in the world we must save fetuses! Forget that person being muged and that drug addict prostitute in the corner over there lets save people who havent even been born yet!

You know considering all the horrors in the world have been caused by humans do we realy need more people?
Hear hear! Abortion is given far too much importance in today's political landscape. I will continue to debate it so long as there are people making inaccurate and/or illogical statements about it (from either side), but it is nothing compared to the massive problems facing those that everybody can agree to call human.

The unborn *person* (child) never did anything wrong, unlike the convict.

Abortion, Yay
Reason: Until a fetus is developed enough to survive outside of the womb it’s just a bundle of cells.

Capitol Punishment, Yay
Reason: Although sometimes they’re just getting off easy by killing them, the resource cost of keeping them alive is too much. Keep in mind that there are resources more important than money. However they need to revamp the entire capitol punishment system.

pro choice,pro death penalty.

im pro choice simply because the childs life would be WORSE if it was born.why?because it would be sent for aboption otherwise,and unless its blond,white with blue eyes and no noticeable defects no one will ever adopt it.
so it lugs around in our stuipid adoption system,OR is born into a poor family and as we know,the poor are far more likely to be rapists,murderers and thieves.

as for the death penalty,death or life in prison?death is mercy compared to life of suffering.justise is not about vengence,we should not seek to make people suffer only reform or remove.but that is all our penial system is built to do,hurt people.

Reason: Although sometimes they’re just getting off easy by killing them, the resource cost of keeping them alive is too much.
Uh huh...kill them to save money.

That's why repbulicans are the biggest hypocrits on the planet.


YES! someone who agrees....

No...it's not a wrong opinon whatsoever.

Babies have no need to die, no matter what woman thinks that she has the right to kill them. Horrible criminals, on the other hand, deserve to die. The difference is as simple as guilty and innocent.

Think of it the other way around, in the liberal point of view. Kill babies but not rapists and murders? Honestly...my "inconsistant view on life" is far from the greatest problem here.

So you feel it is necessary to assert your morality on other people. Hmmms.
So...what if one of those rapists had impregnated a woman? She should have to suffer for his crime, while he gets off easy?
hmmmms....

How about we look at it from the utilitarian point of view. Pro-choice AND pro-death penalty...? Everybody wins, except the zygotes and the murderers. Might makes right...right?

a fetus is a human life, and so is a criminal

but in some occational cases that criminal has done something so horrendus as to deserve the death penalty, where as the fetus has done nothing to warrent its murder

So how is the death penalty not murder? How is the criminal's life any less valuable than that of a fetus? If you're judging it based on "human life" then the criminal has the same right to live as the fetus.

Look what I just wrote. Democrats advocate killing babies but not convincted rapists and murders. Democrats are more concerned with the accused than the victim. Democrats are only tolerant of their own ideas. Et cetera...et cetera....et cetera...see how easy it is?

Be mature, be civilized, and be intelligent. Don't just run your mouth about how much better you are than the evil "repbulicans."

Oh I think both parties can be pretty evil, not just one or the other.

Pro-choice, pro-death penalty.

I'm in favor of aborting unwanted/nonviable fetuses, and the execuion of those that have proven themselves unable to function peacefully in civilized society.

I'm in 100% agreement with your views.

I am pro life and do not support abortion unless it poses serious risk to the mother's health or it is the result of rape. However most abortions are done by pathetic females who had consentual sex and didn't take good enough precautions or even ayn precautions at all. Those women should not be allowed abortions. You wanna call it a single celled organism or a zygote, but every damn person typing here has been one of those in the past. Those organisms are well on their way to becoming a baby and possessing logic and feelings. Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean you weren't alive then.

Pro death penalty provided there is a large amount of evidence, not in these purely circumstantial cases. Somebody goes into the street and guns down a man in broad daylight and there were witnesses, then yes. But some mystery disappearance and then turning up of a body with little to nothing to really pin it on the accused but somehow is still guilty, then no death penalty. Two wrongs don't make a right? This isn't two wrongs. It's the consequence of one wrong being dealt with in a manner sought fit by a jury of peers. I'm willing to accept there is pure evil in the world, that not everyone is inherently good.

Where did you get your stats on these "pathetic females"?

Death penalty=Good in some ways,but bad in others. Their would be more killers if it weren't for it. Though we still have many. The killers get what they deserve,and their is nothing wrong with that.

Abortion=Stupid in most cases. Except in rape,or the possibility it might kill the woman.

Actually most death penalty cases (at least in Texas) were armed robberies where something went wrong and somebody died. So the death penalty itself wasn't any kind of deterrent. If the death penalty were abolished would you be any more apt to kill someone? I doubt it.

What irks me are the so-called "christians" who say that we can't judge people, and then call criminals evil and kill them. Sure, most murderers deserve to die, but it is not for the state to decide that.

Also, if a fetus is life, and a criminal is definitely alive, who says that one is more worthy of life than the other? Certainly not the Federal government! The only solution is to leave the death penalty up to individual states and abortion up to the pregnant mother.


Hey, Christians, what happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?
Or has it been amended to "Thou shalt not kill, unless thou thinkst it is warranted"?
H-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y.