NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm taking a world politics class in my sophomore year of college. Each one of us is required to have a group debate with three people on three people and then take questions from the rest of the class. Having the best grade in my group, I was appointed leader of my group.

Now, I’m not going to tell you what side I’m for or what side I’m supposed to support…or if these two sides are the same or different…because I want to hear both sides from everyone.

Tell me (and the rest of us) what you think of the situation, and what the United States should do, if anything, to resolve it. Try to think from both side’s perspectives and don’t flame or bash people, as I can’t really use that in class. After a while, I’ll present my side and some points from my argument. Who knows, some of you may cause me to think differently.

since your a veteren of this forum you yourself should know that this topic has been argued to death....sorry to say this topic has gotten extremely annoying quite frankly.

since your a veteren of this forum you yourself should know that this topic has been argued to death....sorry to say this topic has gotten extremely annoying quite frankly.

I'm not looking to start an argument. I'm looking to see what kind of opposition and support I will see when my debate occurs. My classroom is a forum of sorts...and this is a forum as well.

Also, with the recent headlines this conflict has won (Israel's elections are in a year or so, Arafat's death, the possible conflict among palestinians concerning their next leader, etc.) new information has been brought to the table even if I was looking for an argument.

I'm looking for opinions as a preview of my classroom debate.

yeah, seriously. I'm a noob and even I know that there's very little chance of this lasting a page without some flames popping up. Anyways, I honestly don't think the United States has any business in this conflict that isn't profitable in one way or another. Ever since the Munich olympics, people have been wondering what could defuse this conflict. The answer is...nothing. The only way this will end is if either side is annihilated entirely, which at this rate, might not take very long. The whole thing makes me very sad :(

yeah, seriously. I'm a noob and even I know that there's very little chance of this lasting a page without some flames popping up. Anyways, I honestly don't think the United States has any business in this conflict that isn't profitable in one way or another. Ever since the Munich olympics, people have been wondering what could defuse this conflict. The answer is...nothing. The only way this will end is if either side is annihilated entirely, which at this rate, might not take very long. The whole thing makes me very sad :(


the only solution is either the complete destruction of the israeli nation or the complete destruction of the muslim nations surrounding israel. Otherwise the conflict will be neverending.

Hmmm...perhaps I should put it this way.

What do each of you think would happen if:

1. The United States stopped supporting Israel

or

2. The United States continued to support Israel

and which do you personally think "we" (assuming that you're american as well) should do?

In addition, I've seen much more rediculous things discussed over and over again on this forum, such as Bush's intelligence level that of course we all can say for a fact that we know and the possibility of a American civil war between the Red and the Blue states, or a EU vs. US world war.

Needless to say, this topic, which is real and very important should not be put on the back burner just because a few people grow tired of it. What has been every anti-american terrorist's reason for committing their crime? Israel.

Hmmm...perhaps I should put it this way.

What do each of you think would happen if:

1. The United States stopped supporting Israel

or

2. The United States continued to support Israel

and which do you personally think "we" (assuming that you're american as well) should do?

Not only should we stop funding israel we should stop funding all so called developing nations period. Our tax dollers should help our nation and our nation only.

Not only should we stop funding israel we should stop funding all so called developing nations period. Our tax dollers should help our nation and our nation only.

Ahah! An opinion!

Now...lets get some more.

Not only should we stop funding israel we should stop funding all so called developing nations period. Our tax dollers should help our nation and our nation only.

Yes, to help fund the "Greedy American Blubber-to-rival-a-whale's Ignoramus" programme per chance?

I'm taking a world politics class in my sophomore year of college. Each one of us is required to have a group debate with three people on three people and then take questions from the rest of the class. Having the best grade in my group, I was appointed leader of my group.

Now, I’m not going to tell you what side I’m for or what side I’m supposed to support…or if these two sides are the same or different…because I want to hear both sides from everyone.

Tell me (and the rest of us) what you think of the situation, and what the United States should do, if anything, to resolve it. Try to think from both side’s perspectives and don’t flame or bash people, as I can’t really use that in class. After a while, I’ll present my side and some points from my argument. Who knows, some of you may cause me to think differently.



I recomend you take a look at the Israeli newspaper Haaretz www.haaretz.com it does a pretty good job explaining whats going on from both sides. Of course if you want to get a good veiw of the Palestinian side al-jazeera's website is awesome http://english.aljazeera.net, the PLO has a good website at www.nad-plo.org. http://electronicintifada.net is also excellent.
Most American newspapsers give you a very pro Israel slant if you are looking for that.

I don't really see why you have to necessarily argue one side per se, you could perhaps talk about the Geneeva Peace Initiative or something which would benefit both sides.

I would argue for the Palestinians becasue they were there forced to give up their homeland so the Jews could have state. True the Jews suffered from the holcaust but that wasn't the fault of the Palestinians it was the Europeans fault. Nobody asked the Palestinians if they were fine with the Jews taking over their land and setting up a new country. As it is now if you count all of West Bank and Gaza as Palestinian land, the Palestians only have about 22 percent of historic palestine. The Israelis keep building more settlements on that land and pretty soon the Palesitians will end up with much less than that. I support either giving the Palestinians most of the West Bank and Gaza and giving them Israeli land to compensate for the land given up in the West bank where settlements are, or the creation of a binational state of Israel-Palestine.

I don't really see why you have to necessarily argue one side per se, you could perhaps talk about the Geneeva Peace Initiative or something which would benefit both sides.

I would argue for the Palestinians becasue they were there forced to give up their homeland so the Jews could have state.

Thank you for the links.

I have to argue for a side because I want to pass the class...lol. Still, the Geneva Peace Initiative will most definately be brought up. Also, I wasn't given a choice as to which side my group would defend. Our viewpoint, for the sake of the argument, was assigned to us.

The trouble with that argument is that there was no Palestine when the Brits left and carved it up for the people there. The Arab nations were hostile to anything other than an Arab state there not because it ever belonged to the Palestinians but that they did NOT want it to belong to the Jews. The six day war followed - which was Israel’s answer to overwhelming and imminent Arab hostility. The UN, as usual, stood aside and sat on their hands while Arab nations massed troops at Israel’s borders, even though the UN had helped create Israel. It was also instigated somewhat by Russians - who were eager to control the oil in the region and didn't like a US allay being too near it.

The Arab nations were humiliated by the results of the 6day war, with three heavily backed nations defeated and Israeli troops near all three capitals. Arabs resent it today and their rhetoric is reflective.

The Israelis have existed in a hostile place since they were formed in modern days on land that was virtually vacant. Bigotry (against non-Arabs, not Jews) led the Arabs to fight them initially, and now they are unable to withdraw from it. Each attack claiming to be retribution for Israel's response to the last attack.

Fanaticism has taken root, where people blame the Israelis when a Palestinian gunman shoots a Palestinian bystander when aiming at a Jew. Palestinians let their bigotry overrun their sense, and it is fueled and funded by the Arab nations around them which Israel defeated almost five decades ago.

So long as the bigotry is fostered and nurtured there will be no peace. Jewish schools do not teach that Arabs are evil and must be driven into the ocean but it is standard fare in Arab schools regarding the Jews and infidels. Just like in the south during reconstruction, the Arab world will not know peace until drastic efforts are taken to end Arab bigotry. At this time that looks unlikely to happen.

LOL, Fallujah!

*Don't get it? Tough!

LOL, Arafat!

the only solution is either the complete destruction of the israeli nation or the complete destruction of the muslim nations surrounding israel. Otherwise the conflict will be neverending.
In that case, you'll be pleased to know that the US gives more than $2billion every year to Egypt - a country in which the destruction of America and Israel and the extermination of their people is regularly preached in mosques nationwide. As you appear to be a supporter of Islamofascism (on an 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' basis, or because you realise Islamofascism is essentially the same as neonazism?) I doubt you'll be as concerned.

p.s. Soviet Narco State - there is no such thing as 'historic Palestine'. Palestine, as it has been used in the past, is a GEOGRAPHICAL ABSTRACTION. There has never been a nation state of Palestine or a Palestinian people - other than those invented by the PLO in the 1960s.

I think the United States should continue military and economic aide to Israel and halt shielding Israel indiplomatically and at the UN.

The UN Security Council will not work at all on anything to do with people killing other people. Russia, China and France have been supplying the Arabs with weapons; while the USA supplies Israel. Anything against an Arab country is blocked by three vetoes for economic reasons: the Arabs pay well with money from oil sales. Anything against Israel is blocked by a veto because the USA is the major ally of the Israelis, dating from the war of 1947-1948. The general assembly isn't much better, since the Arabs can use their numbers to muscle on Israel. 20 to 1 odds isn't all that great to face.

Peace will more than likely require one side to wipe out the other. The Arabs have the numbers, but the Israelis have the weapons and training. A two-state solution would be nice, but it would require concessions on both sides, and the Arabs don't particularly like making concessions of any kind.

Peace will more than likely require one side to wipe out the other. The Arabs have the numbers, but the Israelis have the weapons and training. A two-state solution would be nice, but it would require concessions on both sides, and the Arabs don't particularly like making concessions of any kind.
No wonder, Israeli forces shooting Egypt troops and all
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4021461.stm
(off the topic, sorry)

There are much more than two sides in this conflict. The "with us or against us" dicotomy won't help you very much here.
The main problems are :

* Religion (zionism and wahabism)
-> There is nothing you can do about it from the US, get rid of it in the US first. Maybe stop lecturing nations who "oppress religion", when you don't know how much harm religion can do.
* Jerusalem
-> This problem can only be solved if there is no religion.
* The refugees
-> This problem can not be solved.
* The oil
-> Get rid of capitalism.

- It is so historically common to use propaganda against the jews that we can only believe that people WANT to believe any lies about us. Examples :
Here is an interesting website about the palestinian media (http://www.pmw.org.il)
This site's better for a larger-scale view of the arab world (http://www.memri.org/)

- If any government of America stops supporting Israel, then jewish lobbies stop supporting a vast majority of politicians, and the diaspora will simply send its money directly to Israel.

- "If only the arabs could love their children more than they hate the jews, there would be peace" - Golda Meir then-PM of Israel, discussing children on the front lines (little did she know that it would then become the intifada or suicide bombings)

- Essentially, most people who defend the rights to a palestinian state aim at the wrong target. It's either "the victim's fault" when hamas, or al-aqsa "martyrs" brigade, or hizbullah slay civilians with the only motivation that soldiers can actually put up a fight, or "look at the collateral damage, it's the IDF's fault" whenever terrorists use human shields.

- Calling Israelis "nazis" will automatically relegate you to the much-honored title of "antisemite waste of oxygen"-troll. Because It's like calling an afro-american a slaver, or a chinese woman a japanese rapist. Or an islamist a moderate democrat.

- The unilateral disengagement and finishing of the security fence will not usher in peace, but the creation of a palestinian state will finally give us a reason to say : "so, what's their excuse NOW?"

- About the fence, it is clear that its only problem is that it is jewish. (http://www.take-a-pen.org/english/Fences.htm)

- Antizionism will die with the last jew (g.d forbid). Evidence of this can clearly be seen all over the world : any jew is automatically branded as a citizen of Israel, without any chance to speak on the issue. As a matter of fact, I can tell you that it sucks to be a jew living in europe right now.

/don't think it will move minds, but our national anthem is called "hope", after all... :rolleyes:

There are much more than two sides in this conflict. The "with us or against us" dicotomy won't help you very much here.
The main problems are :

* Religion (zionism and wahabism)
-> There is nothing you can do about it from the US, get rid of it in the US first. Maybe stop lecturing nations who "oppress religion", when you don't know how much harm religion can do.
* Jerusalem
-> This problem can only be solved if there is no religion.
* The refugees
-> This problem can not be solved.
* The oil
-> Get rid of capitalism.

Religion- Wahabism is from Saudi Arabia not palestine. Zionism is a political ideology. A lot of Jews and Arabs are secular but I agree religion is a pain in the ass.
Jeruselum- Can be divided. Israelis bitch about not dividing it but it can be, and according to internatinoal law Israel has no legitimate claim to east jeruselum.
Refugees- A limited number could be allowed to return say 20,000 without drastically altering the demographic balance. The rest should be given compensation.
Oil- There is no oil.

Religion- Wahabism is from Saudi Arabia not palestine. Zionism is a political ideology. A lot of Jews and Arabs are secular but I agree religion is a pain in the ass.
Jeruselum- Can be divided. Israelis bitch about not dividing it but it can be, and according to internatinoal law Israel has no legitimate claim to east jeruselum.
Refugees- A limited number could be allowed to return say 20,000 without drastically altering the demographic balance. The rest should be given compensation.
Oil- There is no oil.

1 - So is atheism.

2 - According to "international" (ie. anyone who participated in the oil-for-food scam) law, jews should be either tolerated or shot on sight if they try to defend themselves. Let's also conveniently forget that most bination states or cities always end up in the middle of, or are reasons of turmoil. Does czecoslovaquia, bosnia-herzegovine, montenegro, and serbia strike a bell?

3 - They are refugees because they aren't even accepted as citizens in any arab neighboring country.

4 - One democracy in the middle of dictatorships tends to give unhealthy ideas to the oppressed masses, even if it takes time. Remember how monarchy fell?

you realise Islamofascism is essentially the same as neonazism?

How is it the same as neo-nazism?

Religion- Wahabism is from Saudi Arabia not palestine. Zionism is a political ideology. A lot of Jews and Arabs are secular but I agree religion is a pain in the ass.But everybody affects and is affected by the conflict, even the US. Saudi Arabia is a major player in this conflict. The Wahabists don't even think saudi arabia is a country, they think religion is more important than countries. The wahabists in Saudi Arabia never integrated and used the refugees as a political tool in order to further their goal. The Wahabists play an important part in this conflict in my opinion, maybe less than the zionists though. As for zionism, it is indeed a political/religious ideology and a racist one that is (much more than wahabism, which merely a backward religion with some fanatical members). Both are counter-productive to peace and to justice in my opinion and they both make the life the the secular and open people hell.

Jeruselum- Can be divided. Israelis bitch about not dividing it but it can be, and according to internatinoal law Israel has no legitimate claim to east jeruselum.It will be hard though. Not only because of religious bullshit, but also because of economic interests and capitalism.

Refugees- A limited number could be allowed to return say 20,000 without drastically altering the demographic balance. The rest should be given compensation.The problem is that they are more 4 million. Compensation would cost. Some of them wouldn't even accept it. They want to live where they grew up.

Oil- There is no oil.
There is a lot of oil around Israel. This is why this conflict is so hot in the west. The US has to keep good relationship with saudi arabia because of it.
For instance, the rwandese conflict between hutus and tutsies was a non issue in the west because there was no oil.

New Psylos
So you do know what you are talking about! I had thought you were just confused. When you explain yourself clearly I agree with a good 90 percent of what you said. I'd still disagree about the importance of the Wahabis though, the Palestinian militant groups are for the most part descended from the Muslim Brotherhood from Egypt. Wahabist militants like bin laden want the west to be drawn into a conflict with the Muslim world while Hamas and the other palestinian factions want the US to stop meddling in Muslims' affairs. Hamas keeps Al-quaeda out of the conflict becasue they know it wil hurt their cause.

the bluntly easiest way to end the conflict is to remove israel.the second easiest is to just tell the palestinians to merge with israel think up a new bloody name,and wait a few years till they have more voters.

gotta love tyranny by majority :rolleyes:

the hardest way is to have israel take over all of the middle east.

and um...thats all 3 solutions that exist.


as for what i think of the conflict.both sides are equally bad,they both propagate the war.

I also feel that America should intervening in global conflicts and should end all foreign aid to all countries. Did you know that the U.S. gives more aid to Israel that the entire continant of Africa? Or that in certain settlements called "aliyah" gentiles are forbidden to enter?

How is it the same as neo-nazism?


its not hes just a typical zionist drone relating everything against israel as being related to nazism

New Psylos
So you do know what you are talking about! I had thought you were just confused. When you explain yourself clearly I agree with a good 90 percent of what you said. I'd still disagree about the importance of the Wahabis though, the Palestinian militant groups are for the most part descended from the Muslim Brotherhood from Egypt. Wahabist militants like bin laden want the west to be drawn into a conflict with the Muslim world while Hamas and the other palestinian factions want the US to stop meddling in Muslims' affairs. Hamas keeps Al-quaeda out of the conflict becasue they know it wil hurt their cause.
You must be right. Wahabism is not (or no more) one of the main religious problems in Palestine. I believe it's islam in general the problem (along with other religions). The sense of community (communautarism) is the root of all evils in my opinion. When people stop thinking they're arab/muslim/jew/whatever bullshit, it will be easier, but it is not going to happen. We would have to take every children out of the their cultural background and teach them hummanism for that to happen. And even when that happens, we would still have to get rid of greed and capitalism for peace to be possible.
Bah I give up. This place is not holy at all, it's damned to hell. It's been damned for several thousand years now. It's easy for me to give up because I don't live there and I don't have to face the daily hell they are living, but there is no solution. If god exists, he clearly wants this place to burn.

as for what i think of the conflict.both sides are equally bad,they both propagate the war.There are more than 2 sides. The west is equally bad and hold a fair share of shame and responsibility in this conflict.

I think the United States should continue military and economic aide to Israel and halt shielding Israel indiplomatically and at the UN.
The only reason Israel is so hated in the UN is because no Arab wants Jews on what they consider their land. Also many European nations, out of a wish to ingratiate themselves with the Arab oil dealers so they can secure their supply of fuel and open up markets for their products rubberstamp any Arab criticism of Israel. They are taking a pragmatic, not moral stand. I suspect many Europeans also are closet anti-semites.

Hmmm...perhaps I should put it this way.

What do each of you think would happen if:

1. The United States stopped supporting Israel

or

2. The United States continued to support Israel

and which do you personally think "we" (assuming that you're american as well) should do?
I think that USA don't stop support israel.but if the do, all the world Really will be against us, and than 2 thing could happen:1- Israel understand they have to go for peace, but I'm not sure that the arabs will want peace, if they sucssed to move USA to their side.
2- Israel will see there is no chance to peace, because all the world take the arab side. than will be anger on USA, b ecause they "drop us to the lions cave", and israel will be more radical. in that situation, the arabs will attack us united because they think our end is close.
if the world still be against us, israel may use "Samson choice", or in other words, drop nuke bomb the arab countries.

I think that USA don't stop support israel.but if the do, all the world Really will be against us, and than 2 thing could happen:1- Israel understand they have to go for peace, but I'm not sure that the arabs will want peace, if they sucssed to move USA to their side.
2- Israel will see there is no chance to peace, because all the world take the arab side. than will be anger on USA, b ecause they "drop us to the lions cave", and israel will be more radical. in that situation, the arabs will attack us united because they think our end is close.
if the world still be against us, israel may use "Samson choice", or in other words, drop nuke bomb the arab countries.
Personally I think that if America stops publicly supporting Israel, the israelis will just kick the surrounding nations asses. Preferably they would leave Iraq alone. They've proven they can do it and if the Syrians try to use chemical weapons Israel would probably go straight to nukes.

* The oil
-> Get rid of capitalism.
LOL! What a knob! All that Palestinian oil is in SUCH demand!

There are more than 2 sides. The west is equally bad and hold a fair share of shame and responsibility in this conflict.
Of course, everything is the Wests fault.

LOL! What a knob! All that Palestinian oil is in SUCH demand!
You probably should have read Psylos's next post before you LOL! Come on don't be lazy people.

Personally I think that if America stops publicly supporting Israel, the israelis will just kick the surrounding nations asses. Preferably they would leave Iraq alone. They've proven they can do it and if the Syrians try to use chemical weapons Israel would probably go straight to nukes.
maybe that could happen, but if whole the world will be against us, the arabs would probaly get some weaponary from the world, that will chnge the situation.
and even if we get whole the middle east, if the world still be against us we will have to move back and give the arabs most of their territories.