NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I can understand wanting the USA out of Iraq. I personally don't beleive that we should have gone in there to begin with. Still, Why are they waging a war that only hurts their own people when we plan to leave anyway, and we are helping the Iraqis to get an elected government up and running?

The question is, what type of government will exist after the troops leave (assuming that you even believe that the troops will leave)? I'd say only the Kurds really want a secular government, the Sunnis and the Shiites want an Islamic state, but run THEIR way, and yeah there's a ton of people who think the US isn't really interested in helping them.

Basically that's why there's an insurgency. I'm sure there are people who think they are *right* but it's mainly about power and control.

The odds of us actually being able to set up a functioning democracy are slim. Cultures need to evolve into democracy. That's one of the main reasons that I was against the war. Still, we can't stay there forever, and the sooner things settle down the sooner we will go away. The insurgents should realize this.

Bin Ladin's Open Letter to the US. Probably pretty close to the insurgent goals.

1. The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
2. The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
3. What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.
4. We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.
5. We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands.
6. Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries.
7. We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation

Bin Ladin's Open Letter to the US. Probably pretty close to the insurgent goals.

1. The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
2. The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
3. What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.
4. We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.
5. We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands.
6. Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries.
7. We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation
Isn't calling the enemy to islam the first thing one is supposed to do before conquering his lands stealing his wealth and enslaving his women and children? Moderate muslims really need to start cleaning house before we do it for them.

Ok, I can understand wanting the USA out of Iraq. I personally don't beleive that we should have gone in there to begin with. Still, Why are they waging a war that only hurts their own people when we plan to leave anyway, and we are helping the Iraqis to get an elected government up and running?

Perhaps because a Government put in place by the US is not what the Iraq people want?

If the tables were turned and Iraq had invaded the US in order to overthrow one Government (or dictator) and put in place another one more in tune to the invader, wouldn't you fight tooth and nail for your country?

The top 10 reasons insurgents are fighting in Iraq:

1) They are members of a minority (Sunni Arabs) which is likely to be persecuted under a likely Shi'ite, American backed government.

2) The US government has hinted at their intentions to build as many as 14 permanent basees in Iraq-- In other words they are not leaving.

3) The US provisional governing coalition issued an order that foreign companies can own up to 100 percent of all Iraqi industries except oil.

4) The first Gulf War killed somewhere around 100,000 Iraqis. Sanctions against Iraq killed somewhere around 1.5 million Iraqis in the 1990s, many were children.

5) Western powers have had a history of colonialism and imperialism in the middle east. The Iraqis only got free from under the thumb of British imperialism in 1958.

6) The US bankrolls the state of Israel and provides it with weapons to slaughter their arab brothers in the West Bank and Gaza.

7) Nonviolent resistance doesn't accomplish anything.

8) The US has been defeated by insurgents and terrorists on numerous occasions- Vietnam, Lebanon, and Somalia are three good examples.

9) The Arab world has been humiliated by the invasion of Iraq.

10) They hate our freedom (just kidding)

Perhaps because a Government put in place by the US is not what the Iraq people want?

If the tables were turned and Iraq had invaded the US in order to overthrow one Government (or dictator) and put in place another one more in tune to the invader, wouldn't you fight tooth and nail for your country?
Elections, dude. There are going to be elections. The people get to choose their government.

Perhaps because a Government put in place by the US is not what the Iraq people want?

If the tables were turned and Iraq had invaded the US in order to overthrow one Government (or dictator) and put in place another one more in tune to the invader, wouldn't you fight tooth and nail for your country?
My country's government is worth fighting for. It was chosen by the people. The only people who chose saddam were, well saddam and those who depended on him for wealth and power.

Elections, dude. There are going to be elections. The people get to choose their government.


Ya gotta laugh dude!

Bin Ladin's Open Letter to the US. Probably pretty close to the insurgent goals.

1. The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
2. The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
3. What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.
4. We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.
5. We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands.
6. Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries.
7. We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation

This is all very well and good, but how does it explain blowing up busloads of Iraqi children?

My country's government is worth fighting for. It was chosen by the people. The only people who chose saddam were, well saddam and those who depended on him for wealth and power.

I don't think the insurgents are fighting for Saddam, they are fighting because they probably think the temporary government is dancing to Bush's tune and even when the elections come I don't think they trust them to be fair.
Just a guess, you would really need to pose this question to an Iraq fighting for his country.

Ok, I can understand wanting the USA out of Iraq. I personally don't beleive that we should have gone in there to begin with. Still, Why are they waging a war that only hurts their own people when we plan to leave anyway, and we are helping the Iraqis to get an elected government up and running?
It's the same religious war rhetoric. They are told they are fighting for God, and they do so. They often don't even question a religious authority if he/she tells them to go die for islam. If people were to question their leaders every once in a while, well the world would be a better place (this goes for US Bush supporters like me as well [well, not entirely like me because I do question].)

The top 10 reasons insurgents are fighting in Iraq:

1) They are members of a minority (Sunni Arabs) which is likely to be persecuted under a likely Shi'ite, American backed government.

2) The US government has hinted at their intentions to build as many as 14 permanent basees in Iraq-- In other words they are not leaving.

3) The US provisional governing coalition issued an order that foreign companies can own up to 100 percent of all Iraqi industries except oil.

4) The first Gulf War killed somewhere around 100,000 Iraqis. Sanctions against Iraq killed somewhere around 1.5 million Iraqis in the 1990s, many were children.

5) Western powers have had a history of colonialism and imperialism in the middle east. The Iraqis only got free from under the thumb of British imperialism in 1958.

6) The US bankrolls the state of Israel and provides it with weapons to slaughter their arab brothers in the West Bank and Gaza.

7) Nonviolent resistance doesn't accomplish anything.

8) The US has been defeated by insurgents and terrorists on numerous occasions- Vietnam, Lebanon, and Somalia are three good examples.

9) The Arab world has been humiliated by the invasion of Iraq.

10) They hate our freedom (just kidding)
1 You have a point with number one.
2 I hadn't heard about number two, but if the democratically elected government of Iraq chooses to tell the americans to pack up and go home, we will have no choice but to leave.
3 Foreign companies have corporate interests in the USA, Europe and Asia. Foreign ownership of companies is common.
4 The first gulf war was relatively bloodless to the Iraqi civilian population. The sanctions would not have been so bad if Saddam with the help of the UN didn't skim off all the oil for food money to get richer.
5 The US never had any collonies in the middle east. Don't blame us for someone else's crimes.
6 Leave Israel out of it. They have a right to exist and to use military force against those who would wipe them from the face of the earth.
7 Tell that to Dr. Martin Luther King and Ghandi
8 More reason for the US to keep fighting. We are anxious to prove that we have the political will to fight till the end.
9 How so? Isn't it racist to say that if an outsider can defeat an arab nation then all arabs are humiliated? Do they consider themselves so superior to all others that they cannot be defeated by a better trained and armed force?

1 You have a point with number one.
2 I hadn't heard about number two, but if the democratically elected government of Iraq chooses to tell the americans to pack up and go home, we will have no choice but to leave.
3 Foreign companies have corporate interests in the USA, Europe and Asia. Foreign ownership of companies is common.
4 The first gulf war was relatively bloodless to the Iraqi civilian population. The sanctions would not have been so bad if Saddam with the help of the UN didn't skim off all the oil for food money to get richer.
5 The US never had any collonies in the middle east. Don't blame us for someone else's crimes.
6 Leave Israel out of it. They have a right to exist and to use military force against those who would wipe them from the face of the earth.
7 Tell that to Dr. Martin Luther King and Ghandi
8 More reason for the US to keep fighting. We are anxious to prove that we have the political will to fight till the end.
9 How so? Isn't it racist to say that if an outsider can defeat an arab nation then all arabs are humiliated? Do they consider themselves so superior to all others that they cannot be defeated by a better trained and armed force?

I was just give what I think are their motivations. I am not saying any of these reasons are just or unjust.

Thanks to all who replied. I just wish I had a few Iraqi insurgents to interrogate so I could find out first hand why they are using such (IMO) counterproductive tactics.

I don't think the insurgents are fighting for Saddam, they are fighting because they probably think the temporary government is dancing to Bush's tune and even when the elections come I don't think they trust them to be fair.
Just a guess, you would really need to pose this question to an Iraq fighting for his country.
Or perhaps we should ask all the foreigners in Iraq fighting with the insurgents.

This is, probably, the beginning of a new crusade.
Some people in the world wish to force democracy and "Christian" morality on countries. But America is not the happiest nation in the world. Therefore we cannot promise the same happiness to Iraq's people. They also are not happy with our corrupt government, even though theirs is corrupt, because theirs tends to keep things the way they like it - the same. Their corrupt leaders share most of their values. Our government is pro-business. Theirs is pro-fundamentalist ideas. That is very, very different.

Just watch Iran get invaded next or some other middle eastern country.
No, just watch any other country in the world - anywhere - get invaded by the US. Pre-emptive war (something generally new to the US).

Do you question why no one really likes Israel but the US (give a few other nations that I know of)? Israel is not very friendly towards non-Jew middle easterners. It's very pro-Jew. Racially selfish.

If I was a citizen of Iraq I might feel that I am being attacked by America when they are trying to force their form of government on me.
I might fight to the death against America because after it "leaves" Iraq will (probably) be Americanized with things like McDonalds. American companies will have worked their way into the system, and will not be removable from it without violence.

Kill Americans in Iraq. It only makes sense to me. Also if America endorses any of the political candidates it will be a very unfair election. This'll probably happen, even though I don't know a whole lot about what's going on in Iraq right now. I just know that if I was in Iraq and I didn't want democracy I would fight to the death against the American neoconservative imperialism in my homeland.

Also realize that if you are in any dangerous part of Iraq voting might be very hard if even possible. The "safe", compliant, non-violent Iraqis will have a much better chance at voting.

Or what I just typed could be garbage. ;D

This is, probably, the beginning of a new crusade.
Some people in the world wish to force democracy and "Christian" morality on countries. But America is not the happiest nation in the world. Therefore we cannot promise the same happiness to Iraq's people. They also are not happy with our corrupt government, even though theirs is corrupt, because theirs tends to keep things the way they like it - the same. Their corrupt leaders share most of their values. Our government is pro-business. Theirs is pro-fundamentalist ideas. That is very, very different.

Just watch Iran get invaded next or some other middle eastern country.
No, just watch any other country in the world - anywhere - get invaded by the US. Pre-emptive war (something generally new to the US).

Do you question why no one really likes Israel but the US (give a few other nations that I know of)? Israel is not very friendly towards non-Jew middle easterners. It's very pro-Jew. Racially selfish.

If I was a citizen of Iraq I might feel that I am being attacked by America when they are trying to force their form of government on me.
I might fight to the death against America because after it "leaves" Iraq will (probably) be Americanized with things like McDonalds. American companies will have worked their way into the system, and will not be removable from it without violence.

Kill Americans in Iraq. It only makes sense to me. Also if America endorses any of the political candidates it will be a very unfair election. This'll probably happen, even though I don't know a whole lot about what's going on in Iraq right now. I just know that if I was in Iraq and I didn't want democracy I would fight to the death against the American neoconservative imperialism in my homeland.

Also realize that if you are in any dangerous part of Iraq voting might be very hard if even possible. The "safe", compliant, non-violent Iraqis will have a much better chance at voting.

Or what I just typed could be garbage. ;D
It's no accident that when outsiders want to control middle eastern territory they install dictators. That culture isn't ready for democracy. The neocons in the bush administration thought that installing a democracy would be easy and would miraculously change the region. They are fools.
Israel is a JEWISH state. They have been attacked many times by muslims who want to exterminate them. Is there any wonder that they are antagonistic toward their neighbors? They are under a constant threat of war from them.
Ok, so Mc Donalds is a reason to kill people? If Iraqis don't eat there the place will go out of business. After elections the Iraqi people can choose the course their government will take.

And if they elect someone like saddam once again...? Will america invade or stop it from becoming like it was previously.?


And if it is a shiite endorsed leader...Perhaps it will be as bad as it was to them during the days of Saddam...? Perhaps the Sunni's shall now becoming the hunted...You see life is a sort of double-edged sword..