NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you Believe in God(s). This is just purely out of interest and i will not criticise ANYBOBY.

I believe that while all of creation suggests a potentially intelligent (or totally inept, depending your POV) design, I have a hard time believing in anything that would qualify under standard definitions of godhood. Superior life? Absolutely, because if our earthly humanity is the best the cosmos has going for it, we're all doomed anyway. A 'supreme being'? No, absolutely not. An absence of understanding the How/Why of my being here doesn't equate a defacto approval of a mythical being.

In with that view, however, is that I do believe there's something after we die, depending on how we go. Science suggests energy is not created or destroyed, it merely changes form. I think the energy that forms our conscious, aware selves is very likely to continue functioning even after our bodies do not. The energy has to go somewhere. I'm semi-egotistical. Enough to believe that when I "die", unless there's a massive damage caused to my brain structure, that I will retain my mental coherency, but able to move my energy free of the body. I intend to observe and influence others in whatever ways I am able, if only though idle daydreams and stray thoughts. Eventually, I suspect I'll find a way to integrate my energy into that of another, and I will enjoy my own reincarnation.

Based on some of my slightly more "out there" dreams and deja-vu moments, I suspect this may already have happened. It'd help explain why my memories of even this life are so fragmented and hard to collect.

here we go again :rolleyes:

The correct answer is: "No"

If we are to believe that the universe goes on forever, then
why not consider that there was a force behind it's creation.

If we are to believe that the universe has always existed;
then why not consider an omnipotence of equal timelessness.

If there are people that want to believe their thoughts & memories
flourish for an eternity, then why should we ridicule their idea - we
can't prove anything afterall.

I believe there is a higher plane, as it were, and a spiritual side to things that cannot be found with science but is proven by opening the "third eye".

I believe the Earth speaks to us and that we are a loosely affiliated collective conscience.

I believe in the force and majesty of nature, both scientifically and spiritually.

I do not, however, believe in a prime mover or original creator.

I'm an Agnostic. I'll leave it at that.

i can find no evidence of there being a god other than in religious texts, which to me appear that they are inconclusive and sketchy ideas of explanations as to why we are here. So therefore i do not believe in any form of omniopotency. :D

I'm an Agnostic. I'll leave it at that.

That doesn't answer the question. :p

The Force is my ally. And a powerful ally it is.

That doesn't answer the question. :p

I repeat: I leave it at that. ;)

I've never seen anything to convince or suggest to me within reason that there is a God/creator/etc., so I definitely don't believe in God.

The Force is my ally. And a powerful ally it is. Good answer, and one that fits perfectly with my belief system. Show me you can manipulate it, and I shall become an apt pupil.

I AM YOUR GOD

Mufasa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fluffle:

Yes.

Good answer, and one that fits perfectly with my belief system. Show me you can manipulate it, and I shall become an apt pupil.

Yeah. I'm still still working on that. I'll let you know ... my young apprentice.

Short answer, "no". And I don't care much if there was. Chances of guessing which religion, if any, was right are slim to none.

God, rock and roll, Goethe...
They are all dead.
I'll take the red pill :cool:

Meh. Question is, is/are the god(s) paying any attention.

I'm an agnostic deist. :eek:

Well.... I believe in me. ;)

seriously, no. Personally I think religion has been the major cause of conflict from the first idols of "pagans". My other problem is that most current religions are not the oldest, and i should think that a "god" would have found this not permissible. Most religious people are brainwashed into it from birth and see no other way to be, they refuse to see both sides of the argument (I would not say that a god CERTAINLY does not exist, this being self defeating) and it can be used as a lever to persuade people to do things they really shouldn't <stares hard at republican america> and all thr manners of strife and awful things, and you inherit a tradition odf such things by being religious.

Although religion did give us choral masses such as Mozart's requiem...

God, rock and roll, Goethe...
They are all dead.
I'll take the red pill :cool:

Rock and Roll aint dead, and as long as there are people alive, so is God ;)

Anyway, what god you believe in doesn't matter much. Most religius leaders are too corrupt as it is... Anyway, there has to be something, and that something has probally created the universe. What existed before Big Bang? Who created it? There you have it ;)

Sit down and listen to a good song. A really good one. Or go spend some time with your GF / BF. What do you feal? Is the fealing scientifically prooved? There you have some evidence of a God in some way. Rock'n'roll Jesus ;)

Well.... I believe in me. ;)

seriously, no. Personally I think religion has been the major cause of conflict from the first idols of "pagans". My other problem is that most current religions are not the oldest, and i should think that a "god" would have found this not permissible. Most religious people are brainwashed into it from birth and see no other way to be, they refuse to see both sides of the argument (I would not say that a god CERTAINLY does not exist, this being self defeating) and it can be used as a lever to persuade people to do things they really shouldn't <stares hard at republican america> and all thr manners of strife and awful things, and you inherit a tradition odf such things by being religious.

Although religion did give us choral masses such as Mozart's requiem...

Exactly. Do you believe in a God or what others tell you this God is? You need to find it yourself, and noone can do it for you. The people in control have always abused their powers. "I'm closer to God, so listen to me. I'm right!" Thats redicilous! Who is closest to God? The God I believe in is as close to the pope as to anyone else, and he talks to them through fealings and thoughts, not through religius leaders. Their just trying to abuse their power and manipulate the masses to their gain.

With that said, not every priest is "bad". There are great preasts as well, preasts who understand far more aboutthis then most people, and teach it better then most, but their a minority. If you find one, hold on to him / her. They are a great help at alot of times...

Short answer, "no". And I don't care much if there was. Chances of guessing which religion, if any, was right are slim to none.

God made man, man made religion. What religion you prefer is just a question of personal taste. There is no "wrong answer". Its just an exscuse for people to get together and discuss things. And probally get some money out of it..

i don't believe in a god.

i don't believe there isn't one (or many) either.

No.
As someone probably said:
"I contend that we are all atheists. I just dismiss one more god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all of those hundreds of possible religions, you will understand why I dismiss yours as well."

Without some serious evidence, which is currently lacking, I can't beleive in an invisible sky wizard.

Without some serious evidence, which is currently lacking, I can't beleive in an invisible sky wizard.

God created the world. He created the laws of nature for a reason. The only thing he does now is influence the way people feel. I don't believe he can control the weather or smite people as he wishes. He gave us a free will so we could run ourselves.

There is a story about a religius man living in a valley. One day the valley gets flooded, and a truck comes and the trucker says: quick! get on! this valley will get flooded, and everyone has to evacuate. The man says: I'm religius. God will save me., and the truck leaves. The water rises, and he has to get onto the roof. A boat comes along and says: Quick! Jump aboard or you will die! but the man responds: No, God will save me. So the boat leaves. The water keeps rising, and at last the man is swimming around. A helicopter comes along and says: your the last one, climb the ladder and we will save you. The man replies: No, God will save me when he sees fit. So the helicopter leaves, and the man drowns. When he comes to heaven, he meets God and he says: I have been religius all my life! Why didn't you save me!? God replies: But I tried. I sent a truck, a boat AND a helicopter!

God created the world. He created the laws of nature for a reason. The only thing he does now is influence the way people feel. I don't believe he can control the weather or smite people as he wishes. He gave us a free will so we could run ourselves.

There is a story about a religius man living in a valley. One day the valley gets flooded, and a truck comes and the trucker says: quick! get on! this valley will get flooded, and everyone has to evacuate. The man says: I'm religius. God will save me., and the truck leaves. The water rises, and he has to get onto the roof. A boat comes along and says: Quick! Jump aboard or you will die! but the man responds: No, God will save me. So the boat leaves. The water keeps rising, and at last the man is swimming around. A helicopter comes along and says: your the last one, climb the ladder and we will save you. The man replies: No, God will save me when he sees fit. So the helicopter leaves, and the man drowns. When he comes to heaven, he meets God and he says: I have been religius all my life! Why didn't you save me!? God replies: But I tried. I sent a truck, a boat AND a helicopter!

It's fine if you beleive that, but it's not evidence. I need evidence to beleive. I'm not attacking your beleif, I firmly defend the first ammendment. I am only stating my own position.

There is no Conclusive evidence either way so who are we to say?

i Will Refrain from Answering that Question untill i`m standing at the pearly gates of heaven, Or not Whatever the case may be.

But i would ask this.
If it is Crazy to believe that One supreme Being Created us all?

Surely its equally as crazy to believe that everything Just IS?, That Creation just happened?

It's fine if you beleive that, but it's not evidence. I need evidence to beleive. I'm not attacking your beleif, I firmly defend the first ammendment. I am only stating my own position.

Ok, sorry if you took it like an attack.. Thats the only proof I can find at the moment. :P Everyone has a right to believe what s/he thinks is right, so go ahead. I just like being a believer, and want to help people find God themselves. Thats all I know, and Ignorance is blessed ;)

For the agnostics here, if you are aquainted with Pascal's Wager and still don't believe, then you're fools.

For those who aren't: http://en.wikipedia.org/Pascals_Wager

i believe and am nearly fully certain that SOME force, at least most potent and present than humans exists in some way. I believe that all people acknowledge a higher force, well I know that. Even an atheist acknowledges the power of "Nature". Perhaps "God" is just what theists call "Nature".

Whether this high power is self-aware and worthy of praise and worship remains to be seen. And this is where the "faith" part of most religion comes in. Regardless of whether a God or gods exists or not, I have seen people's faith WORK. I have seen positive outcomes to seemingly inevitably disastrous situations, due entirely to faith. I guess one could argue against faith in favor of "chance". But I think the term "chance" implies that this only happens once in a while, when it happens over and over again in the lives of so many people with "faith".

Personally, I believe in a just, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient force which is most comparable to the God described in the Bible. But most religions are remarkable similar, with only minor traditional differences; as a result I lean toward the notion that all theists believe in the same god, they just characterize him/her/it differently based on tradition. For example, Hinduists believe in hundreds of Gods, but each of their Gods represents a trait, that the Christian God is said to contain.

My main qualm is the weak arguments that opposers of religion tend to use. Alot of them tend to try vehemently to make theists look like fools and "believers of fairy tales" simply because they believe in a God, but theres no logic behind any of their arguments. Agreed many theists, especially Christians are just as bad.

I have typed way more than I wanted to... :-P

For the agnostics here, if you are aquainted with Pascal's Wager and still don't believe, then you're fools.

For those who aren't: http://en.wikipedia.org/Pascals_Wager


Ew...as a religious person, I think the fact that our only argument is "uh...you MIGHT AS WELL believe in God" is very very sad. Pascal's Wager is a joke to me.


Also, I highly doubt that someone who didn't believe at first, would be convinced that God exists based on Pascal's Wager.

Without some serious evidence, which is currently lacking, I can't beleive in an invisible sky wizard.

But i'm willing to bet that you believe in Gravity. Which even scientists say is something they don't know really exists.
If you drop a ball, Gravity makes it come down.

What if I said, "God makes the ball come down"?
You wouldn't believe that, but why?

i believe and am nearly fully certain that SOME force, at least most potent and present than humans exists in some way. I believe that all people acknowledge a higher force, well I know that. Even an atheist acknowledges the power of "Nature". Perhaps "God" is just what theists call "Nature".

Whether this high power is self-aware and worthy of praise and worship remains to be seen. And this is where the "faith" part of most religion comes in. Regardless of whether a God or gods exists or not, I have seen people's faith WORK. I have seen positive outcomes to seemingly inevitably disastrous situations, due entirely to faith. I guess one could argue against faith in favor of "chance". But I think the term "chance" implies that this only happens once in a while, when it happens over and over again in the lives of so many people with "faith".

Personally, I believe in a just, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient force which is most comparable to the God described in the Bible. But most religions are remarkable similar, with only minor traditional differences; as a result I lean toward the notion that all theists believe in the same god, they just characterize him/her/it differently based on tradition. For example, Hinduists believe in hundreds of Gods, but each of their Gods represents a trait, that the Christian God is said to contain.

My main qualm is the weak arguments that opposers of religion tend to use. Alot of them tend to try vehemently to make theists look like fools and "believers of fairy tales" simply because they believe in a God, but theres no logic behind any of their arguments. Agreed many theists, especially Christians are just as bad.

agreed! :D

you know, to a Hindu it doesn't matter what God you worship? You can invent your own God and still be Hindu.. I like that system :)

For the agnostics here, if you are aquainted with Pascal's Wager and still don't believe, then you're fools.Way to state your case - as a personal attack.

Note that this is not an argument for the existence of God, but rather one for the belief in God.

This amounts to saying "We're not saying homosexuality is a genetic flaw... but its best if you believe it is, just in case."

Um.. no.

For the agnostics here, if you are aquainted with Pascal's Wager and still don't believe, then you're fools.

For those who aren't: http://en.wikipedia.org/Pascals_Wager


Pascal only took into account that there was Catholicism and Atheism. His wager is, in fact, wrong on so many levels that it isn't funny anymore ... especially with the wide variety of spiritual beliefs in the world.

Find a new argument. This one has been debunked for several hundred years.

For the agnostics here, if you are aquainted with Pascal's Wager and still don't believe, then you're fools.

For those who aren't: http://en.wikipedia.org/Pascals_Wager
Actually pascal's wager has a few flaws. Let's say you buy into pascal's wager and choose islam as your religion. Then you die and find out that there actually is a god, but it's jesus, and he's in a calvinist fundamentalist mood. Now you are screwed. Pascal's wager also assumes that you have nothing to lose by beleiving in a god. That may be true with some religions, but not with the majority. For a homosexual, most monotheistic religions would require that he never engage in his preferred lifestyle. That's just one example. Anyone who takes pascal's wager as a rational reason to beleive is the real fool.

But i'm willing to bet that you believe in Gravity. Which even scientists say is something they don't know really exists.
If you drop a ball, Gravity makes it come down.

What if I said, "God makes the ball come down"?
You wouldn't believe that, but why?
I can see gravity at work. It can be observed to work the same way here, and throughout the part of the universe we can observe. We may not know how it works, but we can detect and observe it. I can't detect god. Therefore I don't beleive.
If you want to define god as the attractive force between two massive objects, fine. You call it god, I and everyone else will call it gravity.

joey...

well, thats basically what any theist person is doing.
For Every thing God is accredited, you have a natural or physical counterpart.
so, in a sense you do believe in God.

joey...

well, thats basically what any theist person is doing.
For Every thing God is accredited, you have a natural or physical counterpart.
so, in a sense you do believe in God.

Like, "You ate the biscuit, so, now your a Catholic!!"
I think people can type faster than their brain works. Oppinion of course 8)

Like, "You ate the biscuit, so, now your a Catholic!!"
I think people can type faster than their brain works. Oppinion of course 8)

what?

joey...

well, thats basically what any theist person is doing.
For Every thing God is accredited, you have a natural or physical counterpart.
so, in a sense you do believe in God.
No, I don't beleive that there is an intelligence guiding it.

bump

I believe there is a higher plane, as it were, and a spiritual side to things that cannot be found with science but is proven by opening the "third eye".

I believe the Earth speaks to us and that we are a loosely affiliated collective conscience.

I believe in the force and majesty of nature, both scientifically and spiritually.

I do not, however, believe in a prime mover or original creator.
Ditto

i replied loosly.. some thing humans can't explain.. thats where religion comes in and that's the origional perpose of religion.. yet i lean very very closly to no beliving in god..

science is my religion!
the encyclopedia is my bible!

I know that God exists to the same extent that I know that I exist, and that the world around me, and the people in it, exist.
More than that, I believe in God. To me, this means that I trust Him, and I believe that the things the Bible says about Him, about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are true. I have an ongoing, personal relationship with Him that started in February 2000, and I belive this relationship will grow, and deepen, and continue forever.
I can't "prove" any of this, although I do know that hundreds of thousands of people have had similar experiences with God to those that I have had. Like me, they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Boss, and chosen to seek to do things His way.

(An eerie silence falls over the thread. A ball of tumbleweed rolls by)
Hello, anyone there?
(FutureExistence waits hesitantly for a response, but there is no reply. He waits a bit longer)
Hello?

I know that God exists to the same extent that I know that I exist, and that the world around me, and the people in it, exist.
More than that, I believe in God. To me, this means that I trust Him, and I believe that the things the Bible says about Him, about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are true. I have an ongoing, personal relationship with Him that started in February 2000, and I belive this relationship will grow, and deepen, and continue forever.
I can't "prove" any of this, although I do know that hundreds of thousands of people have had similar experiences with God to those that I have had. Like me, they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Boss, and chosen to seek to do things His way.

are you a bush supporter? (just curiouse.. don't wanna troll) ;)

are you a bush supporter? (just curiouse.. don't wanna troll) ;)
Do you mean, do I generally support bushes, shrubs, hedges, ferns, and other like flora?
Or, do you mean, am I in total agreement with George W. Bush, recently re-elected President of the United States of America?
If the first, then yes, definitely, without question. Bushes rock!
If the second, then no (at least, no as I defined the question). I agree with "Dubya" on several issues, including his stance on abortion as far as I can make it out, but I'm extremely dubious about his foreign policy approach, his position on the environment, his close relationship with big business, especially the petrochemical industry (although at least part of this springs from the way the U.S. approaches campaign finance for presidential elections, i.e., the more the better!), to name but a few concerns.
Because I believe he is a Christian, he is my brother in God's family, and the Bible commands me to pray for those in authority, of whom President Bush is definitely one. This still doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says; not even the Pope is infallible!
Is he a better man than Kerry to lead the U.S.? God only knows (I mean that literally).
BTW, I'm a U.K. citizen and resident.

I do not think that god exists, but if he does, he Hates us all.
I know about lilith and Lucifer, and they are much best gods or icons for me.
Satanism , is a "religion" that does not make people think what the stupid humans that represent it wants. no sins, no fucked up morality, humans are not supreme (its completely the opposite)...
Catholicism is anti-self brain religion, let's burn some churches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's kill the Papa :mp5:


Save mother nature, we are a plague that needs a predator, and we can be our predators. Satanas says:"do not kill an animal if it is not for alimentation or defense" :headbang:

I believe in myself. And then there was last saturday night when that wasnt the case.

Do you Believe in God(s). This is just purely out of interest and i will not criticise ANYBOBY.

I belive in a Universal God. It matters not what faith you belong to, just that you have faith.

In other news, you have an UnGodly long name.

Do you believe in God(s)?

Does it matter?

I am an atheist, simply put.

Someone mentioned Pascal's Wager earlier...saying that was a reason to believe in God. I have to raise an objection to that...Pascal's Wager is a reason to think that Christians (or whatever religion you might use it to defend) have better practical odds for a pleasant experience after death (although I for one disagree with the reasoning). It is NOT a reason to believe in God, unless you can choose whether to believe or not believe in something based on the expected results of your belief. You believe in something because you think the evidence in favour is much greater than that opposed, and Pascal's Wager offers no evidence at all on either side. It only offers a reason for religious people to feel comforted.

Furthermore, Pascal's reasoning leaves much to be desired. One possible alternative that I have heard of is as follows: There are not two possibilities (God or no God), but rather 4: no God, a deist god who plays no role in the universe after starting it, a just theist god, and an unjust theist god. In the first case, atheists do not lose, because they were right and live their life according to the truth. In the second, atheists again do not lose, because such a god is not involved with the workings of the universe. In the third, an atheist is merely using their abilities to reason (God-given abilities, if God does exist) to determine if there is a god. If we fail to realize the existence of God, it is not because we did not try, but because we were not intelligent enough...and would a truly just God punish his people who had done the best they were capable of in their life? Why would such a God send us to hell? Finally, if there is an unjust God, who would send unbelievers to hell because of their honest failures to see the truth, why should Christians feel more comfortable? Why would such a God keep his word to the believers after burning hard-working, honestly truth-seeking people - that is not a just God.

You may disagree with some of all of that reasoning, and I'm not saying I do either, but I think it's just as valid as Pascal's Wager. And, most importantly, that, as well as Pascal's Wager, have NOTHING AT ALL to do with convincing people to believe, they are attempts at making oneself feel better. For me, I just try to live my life the best way I know how, so that if there isn't a god, or if there is, when I die I will be able to feel that I did the best that I could, and if I get sent to hell for it, well there's nothing I can do about that, certainly not when I am given no reason at all to believe in God.

Anyone who I may have offended at some point here...I promise it was totally unintentional, and I respect everyone's religious freedom and views. Religious freedom is one of the most important things we have in our societies, I believe, and the fact that we can talk about this subject openly is a very pleasant and positive thing.

bump

Yup. I believe in God, the Father the Almighty, in the generic Catholic sense of the word. I also believe in lesser gods, angels, faeries, daemons, Gaia, and just about anything in between.

If there was a god we drove it to suicide very, very long ago.

I'm a dylexic agnostic, I don't know if there is a dog.

Greater Lawsonia summed some stuff up nicely-

but the question for me is not *is* but *why*-

why do humans (because there is no evidence whatsoever that any other animal 'believes' or acknowledges a supernatural power) fall for this crap?
Yep, know about comfort for the living, know about trying to make sense of an essentially patternless and senseless world, know about hope for justice & equity in a world manifestly totally inequitable, unjust -

it seems to be part of the animal we are eh?

A bit irrational, a bit insane - because there is ABSOLUTELY NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE for any kinda god/s.

I know that God exists to the same extent that I know that I exist, and that the world around me, and the people in it, exist.
More than that, I believe in God. To me, this means that I trust Him, and I believe that the things the Bible says about Him, about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are true. I have an ongoing, personal relationship with Him that started in February 2000, and I belive this relationship will grow, and deepen, and continue forever.
I can't "prove" any of this, although I do know that hundreds of thousands of people have had similar experiences with God to those that I have had. Like me, they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Boss, and chosen to seek to do things His way.


Right on! More power to you. I've asked Jesus to come into my life before and so far no obvious response. I mean, why can't I have a vision or a burning bush or something? Am I not worthy? Apparently not.

I have faith in God, but beyond that - no idea. I do have a problem with any religion that claims you have to believe in one certain person/thing/idea or be damned to ETERNAL SUFFERING IN HELL!!! The only things I know is that I exist and that life is (in general) suffering. Beyond that, see The Matrix and you get my opinion about the potential of this so-called reality around me and all the rest of y'all (not The Matrix literally, but the possability it posses).

In closing, I'll believe in anyone/anything that helps me win the lottery. :D

if there is a god? why does he not reveal himself to us, if he wants followers, make something divine happen. IF he does that and only IF he does that, i will then worship him, is god illogical or shy or something?

I believe in god, but to me it's not some old bearded guy in a robe and sandals. I think of it more as some kind of force that gives the spark of life to all things. It isn't judgemental, it just seeks balance. Evil is just life out of balance. I don't believe this force sat down and wrote the bible. There's some truth in the bible, but it's something you have to sift through a lot of mythology and parable and metaphor to find. It's a work of men, though.

(I'm a Unitarian, by the way. I think everyone has to find their own way to the truth. You respect mine, I'll respect yours, just don't try to make me convert to yours.)

How can you "loosely" believe? You either believe it, or you don't. I don't believe, because I don't know, and can't possibly know. But I don't believe that there is no god, either, because it is also something I can't possibly know.

How can you "loosely" believe? You either believe it, or you don't. I don't believe, because I don't know, and can't possibly know. But I don't believe that there is no god, either, because it is also something I can't possibly know.

Sounds like agnosticism. That's a nice way of hedging your bets. Religious fence-sitting.

Yeah, I agree. Either you do or you don't. Anything else makes you a weenie who can't make up their mind.

I'm currently an Athiest, but then I'm considering converting to one of the ancient monotheistic religions, if only because atheism has lost it's interest, and I need people to think of me as being slightly crazy.

Check out Discordianism. It should meet your needs. :headbang:

All Hail Eris
(or not)

Sounds like agnosticism. That's a nice way of hedging your bets. Religious fence-sitting.

Yeah, I agree. Either you do or you don't. Anything else makes you a weenie who can't make up their mind.

Agnosticism isn't hedging your bets - I just don't give a shit who's right. If God is so great then it's what I do, not whether I believe in Him that should matter.

I can see gravity at work. It can be observed to work the same way here, and throughout the part of the universe we can observe. We may not know how it works, but we can detect and observe it. I can't detect god. Therefore I don't beleive.
If you want to define god as the attractive force between two massive objects, fine. You call it god, I and everyone else will call it gravity.
It's all about how you look at it.

Religion (that's "having religion", not "organized religion") is about spiritual things; relationships. For instance, worship is a form of relationship. Elton John, sitting in the 22nd row (http://guard.dhs.org/~cos/music/EltonJohn/songs/candle.in.the.wind.html) watching Marilyn on the big screen, describes in his song a relationship of worship. Worship puts the other on a pedestal, but it also allows for the other to be understood in a very special way. Does Marilyn have to know Elton worships her for there to be this relationship? No. Not at all. Because the relationship is something he does, him alone, for him and for her.

Jumping up and having gravity pull you down is described by its physical properties. But gravity is also a relationship between objects, between you and the Earth. Seeing gravity as a measure is a scientific thing; seeing gravity as a relationship is a spiritual one. Do we imagine that the Earth understands us when it pulls us down to it? No. But we understand it. Do we imagine God keeps us safe when we safely land. Yeah. It's something we do; us alone. We are the intelligence that gives words like "gravity" and "god" meaning. We are the comprehension that creates a relationship with the movie star, with the Earth, and with God. We do this, for us and on behalf of the other.

Right on! More power to you. I've asked Jesus to come into my life before and so far no obvious response. I mean, why can't I have a vision or a burning bush or something? Am I not worthy? Apparently not.
Apparently you don't think so. :-)

I am an atheist, simply put.

Someone mentioned Pascal's Wager earlier...saying that was a reason to believe in God. I have to raise an objection to that...Pascal's Wager is a reason to think that Christians (or whatever religion you might use it to defend) have better practical odds for a pleasant experience after death (although I for one disagree with the reasoning). It is NOT a reason to believe in God, unless you can choose whether to believe or not believe in something based on the expected results of your belief. You believe in something because you think the evidence in favour is much greater than that opposed, and Pascal's Wager offers no evidence at all on either side. It only offers a reason for religious people to feel comforted.

Furthermore, Pascal's reasoning leaves much to be desired. One possible alternative that I have heard of is as follows: There are not two possibilities (God or no God), but rather 4: no God, a deist god who plays no role in the universe after starting it, a just theist god, and an unjust theist god. In the first case, atheists do not lose, because they were right and live their life according to the truth. In the second, atheists again do not lose, because such a god is not involved with the workings of the universe. In the third, an atheist is merely using their abilities to reason (God-given abilities, if God does exist) to determine if there is a god. If we fail to realize the existence of God, it is not because we did not try, but because we were not intelligent enough...and would a truly just God punish his people who had done the best they were capable of in their life? Why would such a God send us to hell? Finally, if there is an unjust God, who would send unbelievers to hell because of their honest failures to see the truth, why should Christians feel more comfortable? Why would such a God keep his word to the believers after burning hard-working, honestly truth-seeking people - that is not a just God.

You may disagree with some of all of that reasoning, and I'm not saying I do either, but I think it's just as valid as Pascal's Wager. And, most importantly, that, as well as Pascal's Wager, have NOTHING AT ALL to do with convincing people to believe, they are attempts at making oneself feel better. For me, I just try to live my life the best way I know how, so that if there isn't a god, or if there is, when I die I will be able to feel that I did the best that I could, and if I get sent to hell for it, well there's nothing I can do about that, certainly not when I am given no reason at all to believe in God.

Anyone who I may have offended at some point here...I promise it was totally unintentional, and I respect everyone's religious freedom and views. Religious freedom is one of the most important things we have in our societies, I believe, and the fact that we can talk about this subject openly is a very pleasant and positive thing.

Well said. And this is coming from a believer... ;)

if there is a god? why does he not reveal himself to us, if he wants followers, make something divine happen. IF he does that and only IF he does that, i will then worship him, is god illogical or shy or something?

Think about it. If God would do anything, he would screw the whole system up for a looong time. The same system he so carefully created. Just to gain a few votes, that don't really matter anyway. He is trying to get you to believe as it is, you just need to find a way to hear him talking. (with talking said, I dun only mean words. Fealings, scenery, whatever you want can be the voice of God, intreprenated in some way)

I can see gravity at work. It can be observed to work the same way here, and throughout the part of the universe we can observe. We may not know how it works, but we can detect and observe it. I can't detect god. Therefore I don't beleive.
If you want to define god as the attractive force between two massive objects, fine. You call it god, I and everyone else will call it gravity.

Sure you can. How do you know Gravity is the force between two objects? Someone told you so. There is no way to proove gravity scientifically, even tho it is obvius. A few hundred years ago, priests said "If you drop a rock to the ground, that is God pulling the rock from your hand. There you have it, proof God exists". People believed it. Today people say "If you drop a rock to the ground, that is gravity pulling the rock from your hand. There you have it, proof Gravity exists". Im sorry, but the difference is a very thin line...

There are alot of things like this. Atoms, as an example. You know they are there, but you can't see them. How do you know they are there? Someone told you so. What if this someone was a priest? What if he said "The Atoms are parts of God, he put himself into us, into everything when he made this world".

I'm not saying science isn't true, and I'm not saying the bible is the way to go. But think about it a while, there are some similarities...

Right on! More power to you. I've asked Jesus to come into my life before and so far no obvious response. I mean, why can't I have a vision or a burning bush or something? Am I not worthy? Apparently not.

I have faith in God, but beyond that - no idea. I do have a problem with any religion that claims you have to believe in one certain person/thing/idea or be damned to ETERNAL SUFFERING IN HELL!!! The only things I know is that I exist and that life is (in general) suffering. Beyond that, see The Matrix and you get my opinion about the potential of this so-called reality around me and all the rest of y'all (not The Matrix literally, but the possability it posses).

In closing, I'll believe in anyone/anything that helps me win the lottery. :D

you know, the idea of hell isn't enforced by modern protestantism ;) (meaning just that everyone is equal, and no matter what God / Gods they worship / believe in, they come to heaven. If you fail to find God, atleast you tried. Your worth a shot in heaven for that. If you got confused along the way, thats understandable. You almost got it right. However, Heaven is a very personal place. Everyone can form their own heaven.)

Sure you can. How do you know Gravity is the force between two objects? Someone told you so. There is no way to proove gravity scientifically, even tho it is obvius. A few hundred years ago, priests said "If you drop a rock to the ground, that is God pulling the rock from your hand. There you have it, proof God exists". People believed it. Today people say "If you drop a rock to the ground, that is gravity pulling the rock from your hand. There you have it, proof Gravity exists". Im sorry, but the difference is a very thin line...

There are alot of things like this. Atoms, as an example. You know they are there, but you can't see them. How do you know they are there? Someone told you so. What if this someone was a priest? What if he said "The Atoms are parts of God, he put himself into us, into everything when he made this world".

I'm not saying science isn't true, and I'm not saying the bible is the way to go. But think about it a while, there are some similarities...
Not really. Religion works on assertions and personal experience. Science works on testable theories and repeatable experiments. It also has the decency to step away from areas that can only be reached through speculation.

So, to take the atom example. If you want to check they are there, you can repeat for yourself the experiments that demonstrate their effects and their nature. You might need to learn a little on the way, you might even want to propose alternative explanations and test those. That's all good, that's all science.

However, if someone attempts to tell you that atoms are parts of God, they are speculating or simply repeating received truth. That's following the religious paradigm, not the scientific one. Unless of course they've previously established the composition of God through scientific experiment, and the nexus between that and atoms.

Religion and science may be compatible, but only in the sense that they are complementary. They are not the same. The mental processes are entirely different.

When the "cow had domesticated humans" (yes, that's right), the leaders of the new triabal/clan groups realized they could control the others if they could instill fear of the unknown in them. Thus, they invented the concept of gods/god, with themselves as priests to interpert the new god(s) as a means to control the populations. The continuation of these myths has allowed great religions to take hold, and instill even more fear. The religious zealot occuping the American White House is a prime example!