NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4002233.stm


Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I just saw this

It's odd that you see such disparate views.


A native Fallujan now living outside the city wrote to BBCArabic.com expressing his full support for the government and pouring scorn on Arabs outside Iraq who had criticised the military operation.

"I support the government in its use of force to rid us from the terrorist gangs that have been wreaking havoc in my city and causing pain to my people," Ahlam Jamil said.

"I say to Arabs outside Iraq: Please save us your comments, because you don't know the crimes that have been committed by these gangs under the guise of religion and resistance."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1359782,00.html

Wow, one Iraqi, I'm sure he embodies the spirit of the entire nation so fully...

Wow, one Iraqi, I'm sure he embodies the spirit of the entire nation so fully...

I'm guessing you don't know what "disparate" means? Please tell me you aren't American. :(

I think he's Canadian. Don't quote me on that, though.

Perhaps I wasn't responding to your commentary but rather the article itself?

Perhaps I wasn't responding to your commentary but rather the article itself?

You're just digging a deeper hole for yourself :)


I'm waiting for someone to reassert their position that the insurgency is "legitimate" in the wake of that article Bookworm posted:

Mujahidin terrorised Fallujah, residents say
By Times Online and AFP in Fallujah


Mutilated bodies dumped on Fallujah's bombed out streets today painted a harrowing picture of eight months of rebel rule.


As US and Iraqi troops mopped up the last vestiges of resistance in the city after a week of bombardment and fighting, residents who stayed on through last week's offensive were emerging and telling harrowing tales of the brutality they endured.

Flyposters still litter the walls bearing all manner of decrees from insurgent commanders, to be heeded on pain of death. Amid the rubble of the main shopping street, one decree bearing the insurgents' insignia - two Kalashnikovs propped together - and dated November 1 gives vendors three days to remove nine market stalls from outside the city's library or face execution.

The pretext given is that the rebels wanted to convert the building into a headquarters for the "Mujahidin Advisory Council" through which they ran the city.

Another poster in the ruins of the souk bears testament to the strict brand of Sunni Islam imposed by the council, fronted by hardline cleric Abdullah Junabi. The decree warns all women that they must cover up from head to toe outdoors, or face execution by the armed militants who controlled the streets.

Two female bodies found yesterday suggest such threats were far from idle. An Arab woman, in a violet nightdress, lay in a post-mortem embrace with a male corpse in the middle of the street. Both bodies had died from bullets to the head.

You're just digging a deeper hole for yourself :) Would you care to knock off the condescending attitude and start having a discussion instead of some lesson?

I'm waiting for someone to reassert their position that the insurgency is "legitimate" in the wake of that article Bookworm posted:
I'm not going to say people killing American troops are legitimate, I'm not going to praise them for killing people, I am not going to advocate that they go kill more Americans... what I am going to say is that the US should get the hell out of there with no further ado.

Would you care to knock off the condescending attitude and start having a discussion instead of some lesson?


I'm not going to say people killing American troops are legitimate, I'm not going to praise them for killing people, I am not going to advocate that they go kill more Americans... what I am going to say is that the US should get the hell out of there with no further ado.

I dont like the war in Iraq either, but lets face it, we need to get the job done. Leaving now would create a giant hole because the government there cannot control the country by itself.

Wow one person, that is quite a representative sample they have there for a city of a quarter million people. I wonder why did they didn't ask anyone who actually lives in Falluja, oh yeah, they are all dead now. Mission Accomplished!

I dont like the war in Iraq either, but lets face it, we need to get the job done. Leaving now would create a giant hole because the government there cannot control the country by itself.
I don't know that I care so much about the Iraqis that I'm willing to see soliders die for them, when their deaths really don't accomplish a thing.

Would you care to knock off the condescending attitude and start having a discussion instead of some lesson?

You sound annoyed. Good. Now you know how I feel when people don't read what I post, or read the article I link.


I'm not going to say people killing American troops are legitimate, I'm not going to praise them for killing people, I am not going to advocate that they go kill more Americans... what I am going to say is that the US should get the hell out of there with no further ado.

I strongly disagree. The U.S. is responsible for allowing the insurgency in the first place. We (as a country) have a responsibility to the Iraqisput it down.

Wow one person, that is quite a representative sample they have there for a city of a quarter million people. I wonder why did they didn't ask anyone who actually lives in Falluja, oh yeah, they are all dead now. Mission Accomplished!

Hey, Jon Stewart called. He said you should stop posting. You're hurting America. :(

Hey, Jon Stewart called. He said you should stop posting. You're hurting America. :(
did they Jon Stewart say what I said on the Daily Show? Damn I honestly didn't watch it. Otherwise I have no idea what you meant.

Wow one person, that is quite a representative sample they have there for a city of a quarter million people. I wonder why did they didn't ask anyone who actually lives in Falluja, oh yeah, they are all dead now. Mission Accomplished!

You are one interesting person, you are. Sad and demented, but interesting.

did they Jon Stewart say what I said on the Daily Show? Damn I honestly didn't watch it. Otherwise I have no idea what you meant.


I was hoping you were just trolling, cuz that article had more than one Iraqi and the one I copied/pasted was from the one who was actually from Falluja :rolleyes:

I hope the Iraqi's are quickly expedited to heaven just like the injuns.

You sound annoyed. Good. Now you know how I feel when people don't read what I post, or read the article I link.Yay, annoyance all around! Let's have a good old-fashioned flamefest!

Nah, let's not. I'm going to stick to my position of "we should get out now."

I hope the Iraqi's are quickly expedited to heaven just like the injuns.Wow, dispite being incredibly politically incorrect, that's brilliant. And the sentiment is true enough.

The bold in my signature is actually starting to annoy me now, although I thought it made for a good effect...

Yay, annoyance all around! Let's have a good old-fashioned flamefest!

Nah, let's not. I'm going to stick to my position of "we should get out now."

and watch the country fall apart between sunnies kurds adn shities? plus what about the oil i want cheep gas for my suburban ill be damed if ill use one of those hybrid cars.

we should stay in iraq and the next stop should be Iran! then we can teach them a lesson for thumbing their nose at us.

on a more serious note. the US is now committed to helping get iraq back on its feet. regardless of party affiliation i think that the US is now moraly obliged to fix what BOTH the war and saddam did to the coutry.

I was hoping you were just trolling, cuz that article had more than one Iraqi and the one I copied/pasted was from the one who was actually from Falluja :rolleyes:

Well that would make my original point valid right, that one person isn't a representative sample for an entire city? IT is absurd to highlight one particular expatriate's opinion and imply that that is the prevailing attitude of an entire group of hundreds of thousands of people. Of course many Iraqis are cheering the destruction of Falluja, it is a society very divided along tribal and ethinic lines. I'm sure alot of Shi'ites and Kurds will tolerate the Americans as long as they are slaughtering their old rivals the Sunnis. I'm sure it won't be long before theyl piss of the Shi'ites again though, like when they tried to shut down Muqtada al-Sadr's newspaper or when they laid siege to Najaf.

We need to stay over there, do a good job of blowing the terrorists away, and when we have done an excellent job, gradually get out of there.

and watch the country fall apart between sunnies kurds adn shities? plus what about the oil i want cheep gas for my suburban ill be damed if ill use one of those hybrid cars.

we should stay in iraq and the next stop should be Iran! then we can teach them a lesson for thumbing their nose at us.Yeah... ok... you're admitting that Iraq is all about oil then? Well, when you hand an oil depleted world and a much worse planet over to your kids, I hope you feel as bad about it as I will.

on a more serious note. the US is now committed to helping get iraq back on its feet. regardless of party affiliation i think that the US is now moraly obliged to fix what BOTH the war and saddam did to the coutry.Oh, right, you were joking before. Um... I will give you the moral argument that we are obliged to at least fix the mess we made, but if we're going to go around toppling every unfair regime, why aren't we in North Korea? Sudan? Columbia? the list goes on and on. I know this is an argument done to death, but I've never heard a satisfying answer to it, except couched in terms of pragmatism. And pragmatism right now would say "get the hell out", like I think we should.

We need to stay over there, do a good job of blowing the terrorists away, and when we have done an excellent job, gradually get out of there.
We won't do an "excellent" job if we're over there for a thousand years. It's a situation in which it's impossible, on the most practical of levels, to do an "excellent" job. Point: we have no clear objective at hand. Point: Mission was supposed to be Accomplished five months ago. Point: it's in the middle of the Middle East, the land of rampant anti-Americanism and mistrust of democracy. Point: we've already fucked it up beyond belief...

Yeah... ok... you're admitting that Iraq is all about oil then? Well, when you hand an oil depleted world and a much worse planet over to your kids, I hope you feel as bad about it as I will.

Oh, right, you were joking before. Um... I will give you the moral argument that we are obliged to at least fix the mess we made, but if we're going to go around toppling every unfair regime, why aren't we in North Korea? Sudan? Columbia? the list goes on and on. I know this is an argument done to death, but I've never heard a satisfying answer to it, except couched in terms of pragmatism. And pragmatism right now would say "get the hell out", like I think we should.

good point but its about fighting the fights you CAN win not the ones youd like to. the logistics and tactical considerations for iraq were much better than those of say north korea. that would be a hugely messy conflict and could possibly go nuclear. the best bet is just to wait for internal change like what happened in the USSR

Well that would make my original point valid right, that one person isn't a representative sample for an entire city? IT is absurd to highlight one particular expatriate's opinion and imply that that is the prevailing attitude of an entire group of hundreds of thousands of people. Of course many Iraqis are cheering the destruction of Falluja, it is a society very divided along tribal and ethinic lines. I'm sure alot of Shi'ites and Kurds will tolerate the Americans as long as they are slaughtering their old rivals the Sunnis. I'm sure it won't be long before theyl piss of the Shi'ites again though, like when they tried to shut down Muqtada al-Sadr's newspaper or when they laid siege to Najaf.

It was never the intention of the article or myself to say that this one person represented the views of an entire city or the Iraqi people (hence the use of the word "disparate").
I do think it's difficult to suggest that the opinions from that article follow ethnic lines. For example Baghdad residents are split on the issue, but seem mostly against the siege, while one person from Ramadi and another from Falluja both say the siege is warranted.

I don't mention the person from Basra since I'm pretty sure they are almost all Shiites, but I could be wrong.

We haven't exactly done the best job at "winning" Iraq, though...

We haven't exactly done the best job at "winning" Iraq, though...

ok yes but if we can stick it out, i know it may sound kinda shallow but well be their for years and well take 1000+ casualtes a year but well just have to deal with it. because in the long run a stable iraq is good in only for america but for europe (even the french) not just for oil but to keep the other nations in line. now that they know america wont just talk softly and carry a big stick but itll get used. osama said america was a paper tiger i dont think hed say that now. appeasment dosent work if we left iraq say 10 years it would be much worse then than now

ok yes but if we can stick it out, i know it may sound kinda shallow but well be their for years and well take 1000+ casualtes a year but well just have to deal with it. because in the long run a stable iraq is good in only for america but for europe (even the french) not just for oil but to keep the other nations in line. now that they know america wont just talk softly and carry a big stick but itll get used. osama said america was a paper tiger i dont think hed say that now. appeasment dosent work if we left iraq say 10 years it would be much worse then than now
That would mean a draft, since pretty muchly everyone (who's not in Bush's pocket) agrees we don't have enough troops over there. Now I am not willing to go to war over there for a cause I strongly disagree with. Call me a liberal pansy, but I would move to Canada or France.

Well there's been some talk in the administration of starting a pullout next year, but not until after the elections. We need to get on the fast track of training Iraqis and reducing the amount of infiltration within the police departments and military.

Would you care to knock off the condescending attitude and start having a discussion instead of some lesson?


I'm not going to say people killing American troops are legitimate, I'm not going to praise them for killing people, I am not going to advocate that they go kill more Americans... what I am going to say is that the US should get the hell out of there with no further ado.

And let terrorists take over the coutry? Hell no. It's our clusterfuck and we're gonna fix it.

That would mean a draft, since pretty muchly everyone (who's not in Bush's pocket) agrees we don't have enough troops over there. Now I am not willing to go to war over there for a cause I strongly disagree with. Call me a liberal pansy, but I would move to Canada or France.

true the numbers of troops are lacking but by shifting more of the burden on to the iraqi national guard then we cover our asses that way too. and the draft is wrong but i dont think it will be needed

true the numbers of troops are lacking but by shifting more of the burden on to the iraqi national guard then we cover our asses that way too. and the draft is wrong but i dont think it will be needed

That's the way I see it too, but they need to be better trained and IIRC better paid heh.

And let terrorists take over the coutry? Hell no. It's our clusterfuck and we're gonna fix it.
Yeah, um, I'm pretty sure they already have.

Otherwise, how do you explain things like vast slaughter of army recruits (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3948675.stm)? That happened before the election too... clearly we're doing something wrong over there.

and IIRC better paid heh.
FAR too many of my tax dollars are going over there as it is. I'm still not qualifying my statement... we need to get out.

I dont know about what you you all are argueing/discussing/or whatever label you want to call it about.
I do know that I have heard on NPR all day(please spare me any crap about NPR being Biased towards Bush, its absurd)
And on the BBC worldwide.
The People of Fallujah are glad we are there-not happy about the war-just it is the Iraqi Army and the Marines instead of the insurgents.


I also happen to know quite a few Iraqis myself, and a particular Store owner I speak with on fairly regular basis(almost daily) says he is glad Americans are in IRaq-he has had contact with his mother and sisters who still eside in Iraq the entire time.
I know that the police have had to on more then one occasion stop local Iraqis here from breaking up protests by other Arab groups against the IRaqi war.
I live in Dearborn Michigan.
Fact is most of the complaining about the Iraq war comes from people not directly associated with it.
I respect the opinions of IRaqis on the matter-and soldiers on the matter.
Anyone else is pretty much just chewing cud.

That's the way I see it too, but they need to be better trained and IIRC better paid heh.

we agree on alot of things lets run for the white house you can be my running mate

40 casualties is not a "Vast slaughter". Nice spin though.

Fact is most of the complaining about the Iraq war comes from people not directly associated with it.
You're generalizing. Horribly generalizing. Even if half of what you say is true, it's all anecdotal evidence. The war is a disgusting misuse of money and human life and American resources.

As long as we're sharing personal stories, my friend died in Iraq last year. I simply don't buy into Bush's claim that he believes every life is precious and not a one was wasted. He's just a greedy corporate whore who hypocritically tries to satisfy his pro-life base while shamelessly misusing solider's lives.

40 casualties is not a "Vast slaughter". Nice spin though.
Don't be so reactionary. It was a slaughter, they didn't have a chance to fight back or a clue as to what was going on before being shot in the back. Everything that's going on in that country is one big slaughter.

40 casualties is not a "Vast slaughter". Nice spin though.

a medium slaughter then but it dosent sound as good

You're generalizing. Horribly generalizing. Even if half of what you say is true, it's all anecdotal evidence. The war is a disgusting misuse of money and human life and American resources.

As long as we're sharing personal stories, my friend died in Iraq last year. I simply don't buy into Bush's claim that he believes every life is precious and not a one was wasted. He's just a greedy corporate whore who hypocritically tries to satisfy his pro-life base while shamelessly misusing solider's lives.

what do you think troops train for they train for war to pretend otherwise is stupid. young men and women will always be put in harms way and some will die. but we you jopin the army thats what you do get ready to fight for your country regardless of the war being right or not

true the numbers of troops are lacking but by shifting more of the burden on to the iraqi national guard then we cover our asses that way too. and the draft is wrong but i dont think it will be needed

I'm obviously against the war, but I think that yeah, the pitting of Iraqis against Iraqis will probably work. It is mostly just the Sunni areas that are causing trouble and the Sunni's only compromise like 20 percent of the popluation or around 5 million people. It shouldn't be a hard war to win. After the elections the Shi'ites will undobutably be in power thanks to their numbers and will be pretty happy to help the Americans for a while. It looks pretty much like the Americans have given up on winning the hearts and minds of the Sunnis and are just banking on the assumption that if they level their cities with 2,000 pound bombs they will be too shell shocked to casue much trouble-- kind of like a Sherman doctrine (the guy who torched Atlanta) for the 21st century

I'm obviously against the war, but I think that yeah, the pitting of Iraqis against Iraqis will probably work. It is mostly just the Sunni areas that are causing trouble and the Sunni's only compromise like 20 percent of the popluation or around 5 million people. It shouldn't be a hard war to win. After the elections the Shi'ites will undobutably be in power thanks to their numbers and will be pretty happy to help the Americans for a while. It looks pretty much like the Americans have given up on winning the hearts and minds of the Sunnis and are just banking on the assumption that if they level their cities with 2,000 pound bombs they will be too shell shocked to casue much trouble-- kind of like a Sherman doctrine (the guy who torched Atlanta) for the 21st century

sherman was a bit of a nutter you know the confederates were still americans

I dont know about what you you all are argueing/discussing/or whatever label you want to call it about.
I do know that I have heard on NPR all day(please spare me any crap about NPR being Biased towards Bush, its absurd)
And on the BBC worldwide.
The People of Fallujah are glad we are there-not happy about the war-just it is the Iraqi Army and the Marines instead of the insurgents.

I guess the reason why I started this thread was that I was shocked to see the wide range of opinions on the siege, and surprised that the more supportive were those that were (presumably) Sunnis. I'm not shocked that the insurgents behaved they way they did, but I would have thought they would wait until the U.S. had left before showing their true colors. I guess they were super-paranoid about being infiltrated/ratted out.


I also happen to know quite a few Iraqis myself, and a particular Store owner I speak with on fairly regular basis(almost daily) says he is glad Americans are in IRaq-he has had contact with his mother and sisters who still eside in Iraq the entire time.
I know that the police have had to on more then one occasion stop local Iraqis here from breaking up protests by other Arab groups against the IRaqi war.
I live in Dearborn Michigan.

Heh never heard of that.


Fact is most of the complaining about the Iraq war comes from people not directly associated with it.
I respect the opinions of IRaqis on the matter-and soldiers on the matter.
Anyone else is pretty much just chewing cud.

I agree with your second point, but your first is so contentious because IMO rarely do we really get to see how ordinary Iraqis feel about what's going on in their country. People just use their plights to make their points (for or against the war).

we agree on alot of things lets run for the white house you can be my running mate

haha well thanks for the vote of confidence, but I prefer making fun of politicians over becoming one. ;) :D

Genralizing?
Or but you are using logic and not emotion right?
A waste of American resources?
Halajba was a waste of Iraqi resources.

Even if half of what I say is true?
What are you trying to say?
If you want ot call me a liar, then at least have a big enough set to say it out right.
However Dearborn Michigan has one of the largest Arab Muslim populations in the world(outside the middle east)
I have more Arab associates and friends then I do white.
SO while you prattle on from your arm chair I ask people with family over there who are depending on our "Resources".
My statements and observations are no more anecdotal then your reactionary desire to make every death for nothing because your friend died over there.
Lots of people have had friends die "Over There" My sister-in-law is in Afghan right now, doing what she choose to do--serve.

Anecdotal.
I realize that i can only offer my opinion--
Why do you think you are offering something more then that with yours?

I'm obviously against the war, but I think that yeah, the pitting of Iraqis against Iraqis will probably work. It is mostly just the Sunni areas that are causing trouble and the Sunni's only compromise like 20 percent of the popluation or around 5 million people. It shouldn't be a hard war to win. After the elections the Shi'ites will undobutably be in power thanks to their numbers and will be pretty happy to help the Americans for a while. It looks pretty much like the Americans have given up on winning the hearts and minds of the Sunnis and are just banking on the assumption that if they level their cities with 2,000 pound bombs they will be too shell shocked to casue much trouble-- kind of like a Sherman doctrine (the guy who torched Atlanta) for the 21st century

While I agree with the "heart and minds" bit, I don't see pitting Sunnis vs. Shiites as our short or long term goal. It's completely counterproductive. For example it's in everyone's best interest that the Iraqi government is a secular one. (since I believe that a theocracy will cause the Kurds to secede and that will destabilize the region). Whoever wins Sistani's approval has a strong chance of becoming PM. Without a Sunni counterbalance, that party may gain so many seats as to make a theocracy (de facto or in truth) a certainty. With the Sunnis in play it would make such a thing difficult to pull off.

fight for your country regardless of the war being right or notHell no. If someone made me go over to Iraq, I wouldn't go. Period.


Bedou, if you can't admit you're generalizing using some anecdotal evidence, then I'm up against a brick wall. I know a few people from the Middle East - not a lot, a few - who are adamently against the war. So what? Do I then say that because they say so, the war is wrong? No - I'm saying the war is wrong because we had no business over there, because that country posed no direct threat to us, because it's a senseless waste of human life on both sides, because Bush is, in the end, after oil and no-bid contracts for his pet companies, because everything about the entire situation is sickening.

Let's face it, we could both be lying. It doesn't matter if we are or not, because you are not going to convince me with your "arab associates" and I'm probably not going to convince you with my dead friend. I'm not sitting in an arm chair, by the way, and by that statement are you trying to call me a whiner who can't do anything constructive? You have no idea - no idea - what I could be doing to protest the war.

I'm giving you facts and then basing my opinion around them. My opinion is that, yes, our solider's lives are being wasted over there. Is that a highly subjective point of contention? Sure - but there's a hell of a lot of better things we could have spent our energy on.

Genralizing?
Or but you are using logic and not emotion right?
A waste of American resources?
Halajba was a waste of Iraqi resources.

Even if half of what I say is true?
What are you trying to say?
If you want ot call me a liar, then at least have a big enough set to say it out right.
However Dearborn Michigan has one of the largest Arab Muslim populations in the world(outside the middle east)
I have more Arab associates and friends then I do white.
SO while you prattle on from your arm chair I ask people with family over there who are depending on our "Resources".
My statements and observations are no more anecdotal then your reactionary desire to make every death for nothing because your friend died over there.
Lots of people have had friends die "Over There" My sister-in-law is in Afghan right now, doing what she choose to do--serve.

Anecdotal.
I realize that i can only offer my opinion--
Why do you think you are offering something more then that with yours?
It seems to me that you Senates are the only person here who cant admit they are generalizing.
20,000 Iranians are a slaughter-
40 recruits is a failure.

Hell no. If someone made me go over to Iraq, I wouldn't go. Period.


Bedou, if you can't admit you're generalizing using some anecdotal evidence, then I'm up against a brick wall. I know a few people from the Middle East - not a lot, a few - who are adamently against the war. So what? Do I then say that because they say so, the war is wrong? No - I'm saying the war is wrong because we had no business over there, because that country posed no direct threat to us, because it's a senseless waste of human life on both sides, because Bush is, in the end, after oil and no-bid contracts for his pet companies, because everything about the entire situation is sickening.

Let's face it, we could both be lying. It doesn't matter if we are or not, because you are not going to convince me with your "arab associates" and I'm probably not going to convince you with my dead friend. I'm not sitting in an arm chair, by the way, and by that statement are you trying to call me a whiner who can't do anything constructive? You have no idea - no idea - what I could be doing to protest the war.

I'm giving you facts and then basing my opinion around them. My opinion is that, yes, our solider's lives are being wasted over there. Is that a highly subjective point of contention? Sure - but there's a hell of a lot of better things we could have spent our energy on.
Facts?
No, you say "we spend too much money it is waste of our resources , I wouldnt go " blablahblah
NO I have no Idea what you could be doing.
I have a pretty good idea what you are doing.
If I am wrong please link me to your website so I can donate, or assist in organizing a protest in conjuntion with your much larger efforts.
I am all for protesting the war--pressure will make sure they keep the pace up.
It will let politicains know we wont tolerate this forever.
So please with your expansive efforts please assist a first time protester.
By all means dazzle me with your great works.

By the way I know hundreds of Arabs, and scores of Iraqis--not "a few people from the Mid East"
I also have friends and family in the service.
That however is neither here nor there, that fact is your opinion is no more correct then mine.
I am not calling it wrong.
I am calling you wrong for saying that your opinion somehow rates better then those who disagree with you.
I consider talking to Iraqis with family in country to be more informative then watching CNN.
I never said anything there as anything more then MY opinion.
You are the only speaking as if your word is gospel.
Again, you are the only person with difficulting admiting that your opinion is no more correct then anyone elses.
Good night, I apologize for not being to stay and argue with you further.
Sorry for sounding snotty.