NationStates Jolt Archive

Can't believe I haven't seen any threads talking about the movement to recount and audit Ohio, Florida, and a few other states. The Green and Libertarian parties have decided that Ohio needed recounting.

I suppose you could go to www.blackboxvoting.org and find out how you can help.

Read the front page of Friday's New York Times. It addresses the claims of fraud by people like Black Box Voting. It basically says that it is all bunk. The New York Times, Friday.

Personally, I'm just keeping my head down. While I can't deny that I would love to see recounts wipe out a second Bush presidency, and while I would relish taking on an extraordinarily hostile Congress for at least the next two years, I can't get my hopes up right now. It hurt too badly last time.

Can't believe I haven't seen any threads talking about the movement to recount and audit Ohio, Florida, and a few other states. The Green and Libertarian parties have decided that Ohio needed recounting.

I suppose you could go to www.blackboxvoting.org and find out how you can help.

Considering that a single Ohio county had about 4000 extra votes, I wouldn't doubt that they need recounting.

Considering that a single Ohio county had about 4000 extra votes, I wouldn't doubt that they need recounting.
An easily explained problem.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65609,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5

Nothing sinister here, just a technical error. Haven't you ever had technical errors with your computer? I sure have.

An easily explained problem.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65609,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5

Nothing sinister here, just a technical error. Haven't you ever had technical errors with your computer? I sure have.
All the more reason for an auditable paper trail for electronic voting machines. Now tell me again why the Republican congress won't get House Bill 2239 out of committee or why they won't consider either of the two similar bills currently in the Senate?

All the more reason for an auditable paper trail for electronic voting machines. Now tell me again why the Republican congress won't get House Bill 2239 out of committee or why they won't consider either of the two similar bills currently in the Senate?
politics. believe me, there are a lot of bills that are perfectly deserving of passing but aren't simply because of sponsors and stuff like that.

politics. believe me, there are a lot of bills that are perfectly deserving of passing but aren't simply because of sponsors and stuff like that.
Nothing personal, but this is one of those things that ought to transcend politics, and yet it doesn't. The fact is that this is an issue and has been one for at least four years, and the Republicans have been in charge for at least that long. Whatever problems there are with electronic voting are at their feet.

Nothing personal, but this is one of those things that ought to transcend politics, and yet it doesn't. The fact is that this is an issue and has been one for at least four years, and the Republicans have been in charge for at least that long. Whatever problems there are with electronic voting are at their feet.
Isn't anything personal 'bout that. I too agree that the bill is important, but politicians don't want to give the other party the slightest bit of credit. I'd suspect to see a very similar bill sponsored by a republican being successful shortly after the death of this one.

Considering that a single Ohio county had about 4000 extra votes, I wouldn't doubt that they need recounting.
Actually, irregularities extend well beyond that single instance. Start digging the data. It looks mighty funny when you peer closely.

Am I going to buy that it's all bunk? No. Not with what I've seen. Not without extensive investigation.

When I examine the data and incidences closely, do I believe the potential margin of dishonesty combined with the margin of counting error to be greater than the margin of victory? Yes.

Most of the stories aren't being reported on. People don't want to hear about another election fiasco, and so they shut their eyes to serious and real issues with the electoral system.

It's real, it's here, and I told you so before the election. It is, mind you, nothing really new, cheating is very old in the system; it's just that the system is being set up to be much more easily cheated. Heck, we even seem to have had a bad case over here in NC of someone setting the max ballot count wrong on a voting machine down in one of the coastal counties.

Actually, irregularities extend well beyond that single instance. Start digging the data. It looks mighty funny when you peer closely.

Am I going to buy that it's all bunk? No. Not with what I've seen. Not without extensive investigation.

When I examine the data and incidences closely, do I believe the potential margin of dishonesty combined with the margin of counting error to be greater than the margin of victory? Yes.

Most of the stories aren't being reported on. People don't want to hear about another election fiasco, and so they shut their eyes to serious and real issues with the electoral system.

It's real, it's here, and I told you so before the election. It is, mind you, nothing really new, cheating is very old in the system; it's just that the system is being set up to be much more easily cheated. Heck, we even seem to have had a bad case over here in NC of someone setting the max ballot count wrong on a voting machine down in one of the coastal counties.


Give me links to a respected page and I might believe you.

The only recount I heard about is Nader's request in New Hampshire.. no clue why he'd want one, but I think they may do it. No one's going to find 139,000 Kerry votes in Ohio though.. ;)

Give me links to a respected page and I might believe you.Uh... what do you count as a respected page?

My county clerk just announced (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=248924) that she is still counting votes, mostly absentee and provisional, and will not call New Mexico for at least another week. (I voted absentee... it's personal for me.)

Uh... what do you count as a respected page?

My county clerk just announced (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=248924) that she is still counting votes, mostly absentee and provisional, and will not call New Mexico for at least another week. (I voted absentee... it's personal for me.)
My guess is that Andaluciae counts a respected page as one that says nothing will be changed by any recount.

An easily explained problem.

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65609,00.html?tw=wn_story_top5

Nothing sinister here, just a technical error. Haven't you ever had technical errors with your computer? I sure have.

Of course I have had technical errors.

I didn't say it was on purpose, I simply pointed out that it points to flaws in the system. Politicians in *every* state knew about these possible problems beforehand and all but one or two decided that adding printers to the computers to have a paper trail wasn't "cost-effective."

So, technical glitch or not, we can hold our politicians accountable for being irresponsible idiots with our vote.

...we can hold our politicians accountable for being irresponsible idiots with our vote.How? By pushing a button on an electronic voting machine with no paper trail?

The only recount I heard about is Nader's request in New Hampshire.. no clue why he'd want one, but I think they may do it. No one's going to find 139,000 Kerry votes in Ohio though.. ;)

Nader is recounting some of the counties, not all of them. He's doing it because he suspects fraud through the infamous black boxes and Diebold machines. blackboxvoting.org is also currently doing an independent recount of a few Florida counties that didn't cooperate with their Freedom of information investigations. Those counties are some that also had the black boxes. If there is evidence of manipulation in these machines, they will have cause to check out the machines in the other 35 states that use them, if they so desire.

Regarding Ohio, it is the Green party and Libertarian party candidates that are footing the bill. Kerry has not said anything about it. There were numerous complaints from citizens about the e-voting machines, the long lines, etc., not to mention the many reports of funny numbers.

There is a website that has many links to others explaining why people want these recounts. It is not totally unbiased though, those are hard to find.

http://www.solarbus.org/stealyourelection/

The guy who created the website was interviewed by the N.Y. Times, for those concerned with "respected" pages.

i would love a world with no god
No more religous wars, no more religious descrimination, no more crazy fundementalist states, it would be great

Nader is recounting some of the counties, not all of them.
There was also some talk of asking for a recount in New Mexico, but I think that flopped. There were complaints about minority voters being turned away from the polls.

The process has started! To make sure that there is enough time for a full and fair recount, attorneys for David Cobb and Michael Badnarik on November 17th sent formal letters via overnight delivery to all 88 Ohio county election directors, asking them to prepare for the recount.
The recount effort was spearheaded by Badnerik and Cobb (Libertarian and Green parties) and everything I've read speaks of a statewide recount. Like the above statement. Just to remind everybody about the distinction between the Ohio recount and other partial recounts.

There is some concern that the state of Ohio will undermine the recount effort by not starting it quickly enough... >_> <_< this would, of course, be very underhanded of the officials there.

The process has started! To make sure that there is enough time for a full and fair recount, attorneys for David Cobb and Michael Badnarik on November 17th sent formal letters via overnight delivery to all 88 Ohio county election directors, asking them to prepare for the recount.There is some concern that the state of Ohio will undermine the recount effort by not starting it quickly enough... >_> <_< this would, of course, be very underhanded of the officials there.That concern was what led to sending the letters. Ken Blackwell has delayed the certification of the election results to December 6. Badnarik and Cobb want to get the recount done by December 13, the day that the electors are supposed to vote. They have learned to anticipate this kind of bullshit from Ken Blackwell. When some election law makes things more difficult for the Republicans, he quietly ignores it. When some election law makes things more difficult for candidates from other parties, he enforces it to the letter (weight of voter registration cards given to left-leaning groups). Sometimes he'll enforce a nonexistent law to make things more difficult for the other candidates (Libertarian ballot access and provisional ballots without a date of birth). Now that Ken Blackwell is using every legal reason to delay certification and ignoring every legal reason to advance the certification, Badnarik and Cobb have to get the people involved in the recount prepared to work swiftly.

Donations link. (http://web.greens.org/c/cobb/supporters.cgi?function=donate)
Volunteer signup page. (http://web.greens.org/c/cobb/supporters.cgi?function=volunteer&process=7)

Just in case that helps anyone.

The election is over....deal with it.

Now lets move to Canada.

Here's an idea:

Go to Iraq and protest the soldiers in Mosul. LIVE THE FANATICISM.

The election is over....deal with it.

Now lets move to Canada.
The election may be over... in some places of the country. A few look like they're going to need to re-vote, re-count, etc etc etc.

One best deals with potential fraud by addressing it directly.

The only reason I want to see a recount is if by some minute chance that Kerry really did win the election, just for all the sensationalism of it.

The only reason I want to see a recount is if by some minute chance that Kerry really did win the election, just for all the sensationalism of it.
It's possible, but not particularly likely. In order for this to happen, we'd need (a) widespread cheating on behalf of the Republican Party that (b) is revealed fully in the recount or at least sufficiently to turn the election results over in enough states or (c) re-votes in counties that had demonstrated problems that weren't transparent enough to be fixed in a recount that met (a) and (b).

That (a) happened I consider reasonably likely; that (b) is met seems fairly unlikely (if cheating happened, it is probable that at least some of it was done intelligently in ways that covered up tracks), and few individuals are willing to even consider (c). I don't consider it likely for Kerry to be declared the winner.

It's possible, mind you, if the Ohio recount turns up enough transparent evidence of systematic bias in misvoting, but not too likely. Uncertainty over this election, the 2002 midterms, the 2000 election, etc will be probably noted in future history books as being indicative of how poorly run elections were back at the beginning of the 21st century and how rife with fraud the system was.

Assuming, of course, the country is still around, which isn't too unlikely.