NationStates Jolt Archive

i think the assertion that only cities are liberal is totally wrong. you can't just look at red states, blue states and assume that the liberal message has alienated the whole country. most of the red states were won by very narrow margians, as were the blue states. the divide isnt geographical, or at least not as much as all the pundits would have you believe. i think the liberals have alienated a good deal of church goers, or maybe the conservatives have just used the churches as a tool while the libs ignore them. either way, 8 years ago Clinton was winning all these "american, down-to-earth, blue-blooded" states, so it aint hopeless to win them back. What the liberals need to do is stop buying into the "us vs. them" and have a message that people who arent in mensa and enjoy watching tv and drinking beer can vote democrat too. for a more accurate map of where the party affiliation lies geographically, here's a good map.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/%7emejn/election/

and to further disprove the stereo type
http://www.electoral-vote.com/images/counties-2004a.gif
http://www.electoral-vote.com/nov/nov07.html

This is a huge country... with all kinds of people... to try to put us into groups, label us, package and sell it neatly on the shelf in some post-election analysis... is absurd. Maps are fun, and maps like these are neat to remind us that we're not red vs. blue, rural vs. urban, whatever distinction you want to make... but it is still trying to describe this country in labels and colors that ultimately don't fit.

What's with that strip of Kerry counties in the Deep South?

*agrees with the first three posters*

What's with that strip of Kerry counties in the Deep South?

believe it or not, there are Democratic Texans ;P

Yes, not all Texans can be morons :)

I think its something of a misrepresentation to say that liberals were the only ones creating an us vs. them vibe. After all, it was Bush who repeatedly said in stump speeches about Kerry, "There's a word for that. It's called 'liberal.'" (always followed by a heavy response from the crowd). And it was John Ashcroft who said of civil liberties activists, "Your tactics only aid the terrorists." An us vs. them paradigm is present throughout politics today. You can't pin it on the liberals. The negativity of the campaign was a tactic to make the swing voters find the "them" on the left or right more scary than the other. And given the election results, I'd say the right wing succeeded.

What's with that strip of Kerry counties in the Deep South?
Its a series of counties with a highly concentrated black (usually African American) population.

I think its something of a misrepresentation to say that liberals were the only ones creating an us vs. them vibe. After all, it was Bush who repeatedly said in stump speeches about Kerry, "There's a word for that. It's called 'liberal.'" (always followed by a heavy response from the crowd). And it was John Ashcroft who said of civil liberties activists, "Your tactics only aid the terrorists." An us vs. them paradigm is present throughout politics today. You can't pin it on the liberals. The negativity of the campaign was a tactic to make the swing voters find the "them" on the left or right more scary than the other. And given the election results, I'd say the right wing succeeded.
Who was pinning it on the liberals? Definitely not me. I blame the media for most of it. (I don't buy into the "liberal media" bogus either.)

first thing the liberals need to do is convince people "liberal" isn't a bad word.

remind them of this:
http://www.greentowel.com/images/qt/GreenTowel_Liberal.mov

that liberalism means more rights. that it means protection for workers. that it means economic equality. make it about peoples wallets. show that being liberal is about being for the little guy, not about being against christains, or suv drivers, or farmers. show that being liberal means wanting more out of your government, not the government wanting more out of you. i dont understand how liberals can be both a peoples party and come off as so damn elitist. the ideas are there, they just need to find the right message.

What's with that strip of Kerry counties in the Deep South?
they are major cities

bump?

maps don't prove anything because they can't show people and position at the same time. Despite what you want to think, land isn't what's voting, it's the people that are.

maps don't prove anything because they can't show people and position at the same time. Despite what you want to think, land isn't what's voting, it's the people that are.

wait, what? people are located on land. land can show how different regions of people voted. some regions are more populated than others. these maps try to show who voted and where they live. its been a general assumption post-election that people living on the costs vote democrat and people in the center vote republican. but, its actually pretty evenly divided except for major cities, which are overwhelmingly democrat. so, stereotypes about urabn dems are true, but its not true that the center of the country is solidly behind the republican party. im hoping this answers what you were talking about?

Its a series of counties with a highly concentrated black (usually African American) population.

Sorry, but I have to ask: What other black people can you encounter that cannot be clasified as "african american"?

believe it or not, there are Democratic Texans ;P
goddammit! now i owe 50 bucks to like 200 people... :headbang:

What's with that strip of Kerry counties in the Deep South?
A lot of black and Hispanic people live there.

What the liberals need to do is stop buying into the "us vs. them" and have a message that people who arent in mensa and enjoy watching tv and drinking beer can vote democrat too.
Could someone please explain to me the stereotype that all liberals are elitist intellectuals. Why do Americans think that if you're not one you have to be a Republican?

i dont understand how liberals can be both a peoples party and come off as so damn elitist.
I don't understand it either. I mean, I live in Dublin, Ireland. Here, the working-class areas tend to vote quite a bit to the left of the wealthier areas. Same with poorer people in the countryside.

No area in the US is homogenous. We are a country that is mixed up in a big ol' pot of political soup.

A lot of black and Hispanic people live there.


Could someone please explain to me the stereotype that all liberals are elitist intellectuals. Why do Americans think that if you're not one you have to be a Republican?


I don't understand it either. I mean, I live in Dublin, Ireland. Here, the working-class areas tend to vote quite a bit to the left of the wealthier areas. Same with poorer people in the countryside.

nixon came up with what was known as the southern plan. he knew that the republicans, the party of the traditionally well-off could not win elections on economic values. so, he decided that in order to get pro-biz legislation through, hed make morals the big issue. the repunblicans then started a fight on things like abortion, gay rights, womens issues, flag burning, and other issues that dont really affect corperate interests one way or another but that people can believe pationatly in. by appealing to people's religious and moral convictions, the republicans were able to get the workers to forget about their pocketbooks. kansas went from being one of the most progressive states in the union to one of the most conservative. so now, we dont have a working class party. it was able to be split by fundamental christianity and pet issues that really shouldnt take center stage but do.

Sorry, but I have to ask: What other black people can you encounter that cannot be clasified as "african american"?
Classifying Dominicans or Haitians as African American would be like classifying Mexicans as Spanish. (Rather than the larger groups, Black and Hispanic)

Classifying Dominicans or Haitians as African American would be like classifying Mexicans as Spanish. (Rather than the larger groups, Black and Hispanic)

What does the etnic origin of a person have to do with the country their ancestors lived on? I'll never understand these yanks... <sigh>

liberalism means more rights.

.

Better tell that to the rest of your party. The ones who feel they have the right to take my money to fund abortions,
the ones who want to take my guns,
the ones who think it is ok to hire someone less qualified than me because of the color of my skin,
the ones who think a woman has the right to deny a father access to his children,
the ones who think a business owner should be punished for allowing his patrons to smoke,
the ones who think it is ok to take money from everyone rather then reign in their reckless spending,
the ones who think school choice is a bad idea,
the ones who believe that expressing religion in public is offensive,
the ones who tell me how I can or cannot use my land,
the ones who want struggling small business owners to foor the bill for their special interests,
the ones who fought to keep competitors names off the ballot and limit my choice,
the ones who want to tell me what kind of car I may or may not drive, (SUV)

I could go on and on and on. If the Democrats were ever for more rights then they abandoned their platform years ago.


being liberal means wanting more out of your government, not the government wanting more out of you. .

being liberal means wanting more government.

i think the assertion that only cities are liberal is totally wrong. you can't just look at red states, blue states and assume that the liberal message has alienated the whole country. most of the red states were won by very narrow margians, as were the blue states. the divide isnt geographical, or at least not as much as all the pundits would have you believe. i think the liberals have alienated a good deal of church goers, or maybe the conservatives have just used the churches as a tool while the libs ignore them. either way, 8 years ago Clinton was winning all these "american, down-to-earth, blue-blooded" states, so it aint hopeless to win them back. What the liberals need to do is stop buying into the "us vs. them" and have a message that people who arent in mensa and enjoy watching tv and drinking beer can vote democrat too. for a more accurate map of where the party affiliation lies geographically, here's a good map.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/%7emejn/election/

This map cracks me up. Talk about a perfect illustration of what is wrong with liberals in America. This WARPED VIEW OF AMERICA pretty much sums it up. I suppose it is easier to warp a map of this country than it is to admit the flaws in their agenda.

Get real.

The ones who feel they have the right to take my money to fund abortions, But taking our money to fund slaughter in Iraq is just fine? Taking our money to fund churches the government approves of is great? Taking our money in order to give more back to the upper one percent of society is right?
the ones who want to take my guns, The democratic party doesn't want to take away your gun - they want to have more control over guns so they don't end up in the hands of people who want to take away your life.
the ones who think it is ok to hire someone less qualified than me because of the color of my skin, We don't support affirmative action anymore, nor reverse descrimination.
the ones who think a woman has the right to deny a father access to his children, But it's fine for a man to deny a mother this access? It's fine to allow the man more rights than the woman in this process? It's ok to hand children over to an abusive, drunk, jobless father?
the ones who think a business owner should be punished for allowing his patrons to smoke, It's the right to breathe clean air and not have someone force second-hand cancer on you (which is a medically proven disease).
the ones who think it is ok to take money from everyone rather then reign in their reckless spending, Reckless spending??? Give me a freaking break. It's ok to spend billions of dollars in a war most people are against. It's ok to take money from the poor and give it to the rich - and above all, it's ok to to let people fall through the cracks of society because they're less priviledged than you? That's not what this country is about.
the ones who think school choice is a bad idea, Where the hell did you get this one from?
the ones who believe that expressing religion in public is offensive, No, you're confusing us with France. What we think is offensive is people trying to force their religion down our throats - and using the Republican party to do so.
the ones who tell me how I can or cannot use my land, What are you talking about? Zoning? Environmental protection? If you have a problem with these things, get back to me.
the ones who want struggling small business owners to foor the bill for their special interests, Ooooh yes, because republicans are so nice to small business owners. No. They're a lot more friendly to the interests of large megolith corporations.
the ones who fought to keep competitors names off the ballot and limit my choice, Get out. The democrats did some crappy things to keep Nader off the ballot in some states, but in heavily republican states, Nader wasn't even close to getting on the ballot - how then, are you promoting choice?
the ones who want to tell me what kind of car I may or may not drive, (SUV) Whenever you find someone advocating taking away people's SUVs, get back to me. Whenever you decide that it's a little more important to take care of the earth we'll hand over to our children than someone pimping in their tight-ass car, get back to me...

being liberal means wanting more government.Ah ha, so we should just let greedy corporations full reign over our lives, our planet, and our pocketbooks. We shouldn't give a damn about poor people, because obviously, if they just worked a little harder, they could be rich. We shouldn't care about protecting people from intrusions in their private lives, protecting the minority from the majority, giving people the tools to make it in life... no, we should let everyone alone and revert to something akin to a state of nature.

Oh yes. I'm definitely converted. The democratic party is definitely all about restricting my rights.

This map cracks me up. Talk about a perfect illustration of what is wrong with liberals in America. This WARPED VIEW OF AMERICA pretty much sums it up. I suppose it is easier to warp a map of this country than it is to admit the flaws in their agenda.
What's warped about the fact that red states versus blue states does not even come close to defining our country properly?

We don't support affirmative action anymore, nor reverse descrimination.
I suppose "we" means someone other than the democrats? I would think so, but it dosen't really make sense given the rest of your post.

http://www.democrats.org/wvc/weekinreview/20030124.html


Speaking Up For Afirmative Action. While the Bush Administration has been busy working to end affirmative action as we know it by filing amicus briefs asking the Supreme Court to overturn the University of Michigan admissions policy which that promotes the enrollment of students of color, Democrats have been standing firm on the issue.

"If the Supreme Court agrees with President Bush and prohibits affirmative action in our colleges and universities, the dreams of countless eager young people will be crushed," said Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi. "We must preserve those dreams."

"Affirmative action, whether based on race or gender, stands or falls on similar logic," said Senator Hillary Clinton. "And if affirmative action falls, I worry it is only a small step to rolling back our most basic anti-discrimination laws." Senator Clinton announced Monday that she and several Democratic Senate colleagues will soon file an amicus brief in support of the University of Michigan.

I suppose "we" means someone other than the democrats? I would think so, but it dosen't really make sense given the rest of your post.It not as wide spread throughout the party as other issues. I don't have to agree with everything Hillary says in order to be part of the same party as her.

It not as wide spread throughout the party as other issues. I don't have to agree with everything Hillary says in order to be part of the same party as her.
You don't. That dosen't mean that the Democrats, in the sense of the official party, dosen't "support affirmative action anymore". Saying that would be like saying Republicans are pro-abortion simply because a large number are.

You don't. That dosen't mean that the Democrats, in the sense of the official party, dosen't "support affirmative action anymore". Saying that would be like saying Republicans are pro-abortion simply because a large number are.
All right, I'll step back from the 'official' party stance then, and agree that affirmitive action is untenable and should be done away with. The Supreme Court didn't like it much either.

Where the hell did you get this one from?
.


School vouchers.

Don't feel like taking more on for now, maybe another day.

Big hint; the government is not the counterweight to corporations any more than the church is a counterweight to the mass media.

Sorry, but I have to ask: What other black people can you encounter that cannot be clasified as "african american"?
Jamaica comes to mind...

What's with that strip of Kerry counties in the Deep South?




Democrats seem to do well along the Mississippi River for some reason, starting in Missouri and going down to Louisiana.

What's with that strip of Kerry counties in the Deep South?


That's called "The Brain Belt". :D

Having seen the Mississippi River, I could understand why they might be concerned about the environment.

Democrats seem to do well along the Mississippi River for some reason, starting in Missouri and going down to Louisiana.
And of course there is New Orleans. :D

And of course there is New Orleans. :D



New Orleans is awsome but very different.