NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok saw i've been thinking about the "wedge" issues in America lately. I want to point out my views and see what you all think (No rants please)
1) Gay Marriage- Marriage began with the church. The church proclaimes that marriage is for the purpose of procreation. two men or two women cannot procreate. nuff said. (civil unions are ok, as they are a state issue)
2) abortion- babies born premature usually survive. therefore, a baby aborted in the late term probably could have survived. how can you possible justify killing him/her?
3)death penalty- probably shouldn't be a gov't issue- but if someone tries to harm you, you should have the right to shoot him dead on the spot.
4)gun control- everyone should have the right to self defense- see above.
5)taxes- this pretty much suns up my feelings: http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp
6)religion- Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles- you can't deny that. FORCING people to practice them is wrong, but trying to stricken them from every public place is just as assenine (who doesn't agree with principles of the 10 commandments)
7)State sponsored Healthcare/public aid/transportation/food rations/ anything else funded through public money- (based on the assumption that Communism is inherently impossible because of human nature's natural greed- its been proven) Forcing people to fund things that do not benefit them is insane. there are plenty of good, charitable people that seek to aid the unfortunate. but as soon as you have a system for aid, you have people trying to exploit the system (welfare queens, among others) It is inherently wrong to force people to pay for things they will never use.
8) unilateralism- who can disagree that the U.S. is a sovereign country, as is every country? countries can certainly express their dislike of our policies, but for them to think that they have any semblance of control over our actions is crazy. (READ- I am not debating whether invading Iraq was right or wrong) but is was Legal. So-called international laws have no bearing in our current world.

Please only respond with real comments, no raving or anything

1) Marriage began before the Judeo-Christian church. Several male/female married couples do not or cannot have children. Civil Unions do not give the couple nearly as many legal rights as marriages do.
2) Most abortions do not happen late term.
6) One of the Commandments is "thou shalt have no other god before me." Try to explain centering laws around that one. Also, our country was founded less on Judeo-Christian principles and more on the principles of the philosophers Locke and Hobbes.
7) I agree. User fees and private charity are the answer.

I might consider responding to the others later, but these four stuck out in my mind right away.

1) In the early days of the Catholic Church, homosexual marriages were common. They saw nothing wrong with it.

2) I agree that women should have abortions earlier in their pregnancies if they do not want to have the baby, and I agree that she shouldn't just fuck without thinking about it and then have an abortion. HOWEVER, if a woman becomes pregnant if the condom breaks, or if she's raped, she shouldn't be forced to carry the baby to term. As for late-term pregnancies, the woman should be allowed to have an abortion if giving birth will kill her (see: Pre-Eclampsia). Also, there are certain conditions the fetus can have that can only be detected late in the pregnancy. Sometimes a baby develops with a hole in its spine, and depending on where the hole develops, the baby could break its back during birth and be paralyzed for the rest of its life, or it could be born with just a stump for a head/brain with heart/nervous/respiratory functions still working. My biology teacher saw one of these babies, and the parents refused to abort it, even though they refused to look at it after it was born.

3) I'm a liberal who's all for the death penalty in certain situations, though I think letting the fucker rot in a tiny cell forever while home videos and pictures of his victims are everywhere he turns.

4) I like guns. I grew up with guns. But no one is going to use an AK-47 to kill a deer. I'm all for background checks and safety locks on guns, but I also think that if you're going to have guns in the house with kids, teach your kids how to use them safely and keep them locked up. The guns, not the kids. We don't want to be Roman Polanski.

5) Taxes. They're a necessary evil. Without them, we'd have shitty roads and shittier schools.

6) America actually wasn't founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html

That link has various things said by our founding fathers about Religion/Christianity. They really did not want America to become a religious state.

7) State sponsored healthcare is good in theory, bad in practice.

8) We don't help ourselves by pissing off the world. I agree that America does have to keep its own interests first, I do think that America needs to only act unilaterally if there actually is a threat to our security. Iraq posed no threat to us.

1) Gay Marriage- Marriage began with the church. The church proclaimes that marriage is for the purpose of procreation. two men or two women cannot procreate. nuff said. (civil unions are ok, as they are a state issue)

I don't know when marriage began or who started it. If it began with the church, so be it, but that doesn't mean it ends there. Marriage is a State issue now and is no longer in the hands of the church. For example: A Christian heterosexual man and a Christian heterosexual woman decide to get married in a church ceremony. They still have to get a State issued marriage license in order to gain the State benefits for being married. State benefits include: joint filing of taxes, rights to each others property upon one of their deaths, right to make medical decisions on behalf of the other, right to not have to testify against the other in court, and so on. As far as every single state in the US is concerned, just having a preacher say "man and wife" isn't good enough.

2) abortion- babies born premature usually survive. therefore, a baby aborted in the late term probably could have survived. how can you possible justify killing him/her?

Late term abortions generally don't happen. Very rare, actually.

3)death penalty- probably shouldn't be a gov't issue- but if someone tries to harm you, you should have the right to shoot him dead on the spot.

That's the Minority Report argument. I may walk up to you, brandish a gun, and say "I'm going to shoot you" and then change my mind just before pulling the trigger. Another way to look at it is you may as well just go kill everyone because anyone, at any time, might snap and decide to hurt you. Pre-emptive strikes ... it's the American way. :rolleyes:

4)gun control- everyone should have the right to self defense- see above.

Everyone does have the right to self-defense. Even if guns had never been invented. Under a system where there is absolute freedom of guns, then the general public is in constant danger. For example, let's say you and I live next door to each other in an apartment. Someone breaks into your apartment and you whip out your Uzi and blast away. Bullets tear through the walls and you kill my children. What would be my recourse? Guns should be designed for safety as well as protection. *That* is what we (liberals) talk about when we say "gun control".

5)taxes- this pretty much suns up my feelings: http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp

Ok ... very humerous, but that's life. A flat tax or a federal sales tax would be far too regressive.

6)religion- Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles- you can't deny that. FORCING people to practice them is wrong, but trying to stricken them from every public place is just as assenine (who doesn't agree with principles of the 10 commandments)

If you can show me one Article of the US Constitution or show me just one of the Bill of Rights that can be found in the Jewish or Christian Bible, then I will concede to you that the US was founded on Christian principles. Conversly, can you show me one single mention of God or Jesus in the US Constitution?

The Declaration of Independence makes a passing mention by saying "endowed by their Creator". It doesn't say the Creator, but rather implies each individual's personal Creator.

Incidently, I do not agree with the principles of the 10 Commandments. Your above mention of wanting the right to shoot people is proof that you don't necessarily agree with the principles either, because one of those commandments is "Thou shalt not kill".

7)State sponsored Healthcare/public aid/transportation/food rations/ anything else funded through public money- (based on the assumption that Communism is inherently impossible because of human nature's natural greed- its been proven) Forcing people to fund things that do not benefit them is insane. there are plenty of good, charitable people that seek to aid the unfortunate. but as soon as you have a system for aid, you have people trying to exploit the system (welfare queens, among others) It is inherently wrong to force people to pay for things they will never use.

Couple of problems there:

1] The government is a strange thing with money. If they set up a fund of, say, $10,000,000 and call it "food stamp fund" to be given to those who apply and qualify and nobody applies, that $10,000,000 does not get redisbursed! It will sit there in that fund for decades, doing nothing, benefitting nobody. Your 0.006 cents share of that will not get returned to you.

2] You may not want your tax dollars to go to feeding a hungry family or housing the poor, but I'm willing to bet that there are just as many people out there who don't want their hard earned money going to taxes to pay for your police protection or your nice safe highways either. If you have the right to protection and highways, why doesn't someone else have the right to food?

8) unilateralism- who can disagree that the U.S. is a sovereign country, as is every country? countries can certainly express their dislike of our policies, but for them to think that they have any semblance of control over our actions is crazy. (READ- I am not debating whether invading Iraq was right or wrong) but is was Legal. So-called international laws have no bearing in our current world.

International laws do have bearing when one sovereign nation (the US) attacks another soveriegn nation (Iraq). Mexico is a sovereign nation ... does that give them the right to just decide one day to bomb the hell out of Texas?

My take on gun control: I support a person's right to own a gun not so that he can protect himself, but rather as an assurance that if the government ever gets too far gone we can overthrow it.

As succinct as possible...
1) Gay Marriage- I am all for leaving marriage as an issue for individual churches to decide upon (particularly as no religion can be allowed do decide for another), and keeping religion completely out of the civil unions issue, which only relates to the government.
2) abortion- An unfortunate necessity in today's world, as if they are outlawed they will continue to occur in dangerous "back alley" settings. I would prefer that they be made needless by restructuring societal norms so that sex is destigmatized, demysticized, and not made to seem dirty anymore, and by providing much more effective and efficient resources for adoption and foster care. However, in the time between now and then, abortion must be kept legal. I support it as a right until sometime around the point of quickening.
3)death penalty- I don't believe in it. Almost any other punishment can be rescinded if it turns out the punisher was wrong, but this, of course, cannot.
4)gun control- I really don't like guns. That said, I support people's right to own them. That said, I don't want my neighbors carrying around AK's or being stupid about gun safety. I don't know how much of that should be legislated.
5)taxes- For every purpose that taxes go to that you don't approve of, there is one that you do approve of but someone else doesn't. Deal with it or get rid of them completely.
6)religion- I agree with Judeo-Christian ideals, but I do not appreciate having them forced down my throat. This nation may or may not have been founded with them in mind, but it is by no means a theocracy, and must bear in mind that religious diversity is, and always will be, a part of being what it aspires to be.
7)State sponsored Healthcare/public aid/transportation/food rations/ anything else funded through public money- See my answer to number 5.
8) unilateralism- I am all for allowing the sovereignty of nations to proceed, as though it were anarchy on a larger scale. However, your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose even in an anarchy, and so there should be some sort of system in place for determining when swinging farther is justified. Nations, in general, act like bratty five-year-olds.

Ok saw i've been thinking about the "wedge" issues in America lately. I want to point out my views and see what you all think (No rants please)
1) Gay Marriage- Marriage began with the church. The church proclaimes that marriage is for the purpose of procreation. two men or two women cannot procreate. nuff said. (civil unions are ok, as they are a state issue)
2) abortion- babies born premature usually survive. therefore, a baby aborted in the late term probably could have survived. how can you possible justify killing him/her?
3)death penalty- probably shouldn't be a gov't issue- but if someone tries to harm you, you should have the right to shoot him dead on the spot.
4)gun control- everyone should have the right to self defense- see above.
5)taxes- this pretty much suns up my feelings: http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp
6)religion- Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles- you can't deny that. FORCING people to practice them is wrong, but trying to stricken them from every public place is just as assenine (who doesn't agree with principles of the 10 commandments)
7)State sponsored Healthcare/public aid/transportation/food rations/ anything else funded through public money- (based on the assumption that Communism is inherently impossible because of human nature's natural greed- its been proven) Forcing people to fund things that do not benefit them is insane. there are plenty of good, charitable people that seek to aid the unfortunate. but as soon as you have a system for aid, you have people trying to exploit the system (welfare queens, among others) It is inherently wrong to force people to pay for things they will never use.
8) unilateralism- who can disagree that the U.S. is a sovereign country, as is every country? countries can certainly express their dislike of our policies, but for them to think that they have any semblance of control over our actions is crazy. (READ- I am not debating whether invading Iraq was right or wrong) but is was Legal. So-called international laws have no bearing in our current world.

Please only respond with real comments, no raving or anything

1) Making gay marriage legal does not mean that all churches must perform them. 'Nuff said.
2) Abortions aren't performed at all often in the last term of pregnancy, medical reasons notwithstanding.
3) Except for that pesky stuff about due process. Man, there's just no sense of fair gunplay anymore. Sheesh.
4) see above, yes.
5) I'll never get it with the whole tax thing being such an issue for people...it's like the Brits with their fear of rats...get over it, the revolution was over 200 years ago...
6) Your country was founded on principles conceived of and out into practice by indigenous peoples, only to have them brutally displaced by Judeo-Christian values your esteemed forebears brutally imposed on all corners of this land. It's only fitting that as a 'melting pot' culture overt religious symbology be removed from public places.
7) 'Never' is a long time. Be careful not to tempt the Fates.
8) No-one can disagree that the U.S. is a sovereign nation, like most others. But respectfully, even an individual can control your country's actions. It's happened already. That individual was Osama Bin Laden.

Oh, and if 'so-called' international laws have no bearing in YOUR current world, it's because you've flouted them unilaterally for years. The rest of the world still lives, works, and plays by them. What's your excuse?

8) No-one can disagree that the U.S. is a sovereign nation, like most others. But respectfully, even an individual can control your country's actions. It's happened already. That individual was Osama Bin Laden.

Ouch. Damn good point ... but ouch.

Oh, and if 'so-called' international laws have no bearing in YOUR current world, it's because you've flouted them unilaterally for years. The rest of the world still lives, works, and plays by them. What's your excuse?

Well ... you know our foreign policy .... YEEEHAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWW!