NationStates Jolt Archive

Ask away.



No-one's listening.

Yeah well around 60% or so of the board is already atheist...

and the other 40% have had a good (or bad...mostly bad) experiance with atheists.

I thought these threads were banned.

people are listening but they just don't care. And not like anyone going to back down on thier views anyway so it defeats the purpose.

OMG Tactical Grace!!!!

Aren't you afraid you'll burn in Hell? ;)

Are there any limitations upon the questions I ask?

OMG Tactical Grace!!!!

Aren't you afraid you'll burn in Hell? ;)
I have had Christian friends tell me, with complete honesty, that even though I'm a decent guy, none of my actions in life, good or bad, will matter at all, unless I subscribe to their doctrine. Only that will save me from the literal fires and sulphur lakes of Hell.

Wow, you too? Man i thought i was the only one.

I have had Christian friends tell me, with complete honesty, that even though I'm a decent guy, none of my actions in life, good or bad, will matter at all, unless I subscribe to their doctrine. Only that will save me from the literal fires and sulphur lakes of Hell.
In our Christian belief system, that is indeed true, except for the being a decent guy part. No one is good. But anyway, onto my question.

Do you believe in Evolution as the origin of all species?
If not, how do you believe the world came about?
If so, how do you explain the concept of Irreduceable Complexity (I can expound upon that if you are unfamiliar with it.)?

If so, how do you explain the concept of Irreduceable Complexity (I can expound upon that if you are unfamiliar with it.)?

What's that, when it's at home then?

Irreduceable Complexity

Creationist bullshit alert. :p

What's that, when it's at home then?
I assume you want me to tell you all about it. I love to lecture people. Sue me.
Irreduceable complexity is the idea that the very smallest units of life, down to the proteins that are absolutely necessary to the survival of a cell, are so complex and absolutely necessary for the basic processes of life to render the possibility of them being produced by Evolution to zero.
AKA Life to too complex to have developed through Evolution.

Creationist bullshit alert. :p
And how is it that you have rendered such a judgment upon this concept? I want to understand your reasoning for so quickly tossing aside my question.

I assume you want me to tell you all about it. I love to lecture people. Sue me.
Irreduceable complexity is the idea that the very smallest units of life, down to the proteins that are absolutely necessary to the survival of a cell, are so complex and absolutely necessary for the basic processes of life to render the possibility of them being produced by Evolution to zero.
AKA Life to too complex to have developed through Evolution.

My response:

1) Why is the possibility zero?

2) What evidence do you have that life is indeed, as you claim, irreducibly complex ?

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

This site has an index of all the Creationist claims to Evloution. your Complex theory is in there somewhere if you care to find it.

My response:

1) Why is the possibility zero?

2) What evidence do you have that life is indeed, as you claim, irreducibly complex ?
1) I am not sure if I could reduce the possibility to zero. It simply approaches zero to the point that unless overwhelming evidence were to be found for Evolution, any respectable scientist should not even raise the possibility of its occurrence.

2) Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe, a microbiologist, provides a convincing argument upon this subject.
The eye is often cited as an example of irreduceable complexity. Mutations and adaptations could not have altered the genes of any pre-existing creature to the point where not only would it have developed an organ possible of receiving light and transferring it into an electrical signal, but also capable of tansmitting that signal along a extremely precise path into the brain where it is translated back into an image for the organism to use to respond to the world.
Even down at the level of a cell, life is extremely complex. If one of the organelles in a cell were to work improperly, the entire cell would die. In order for any cell to operate, many of its components must have formed in exactly the same place at exactly the same time, which is quite simply ridiculous if it were to be left to chance.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

This site has an index of all the Creationist claims to Evloution. your Complex theory is in there somewhere if you care to find it.
Actually, I have looked at the site myself and debunked several of its claims, despite my lack of professional experience.
I am taking Biology II in high school right now, but it seems to me that the Theory of Evolution is far more ridiculous than the concept of an Intellignet Designer. I just need to see a truly intellectual backing for Evolution that has no holes in it before I give the Theory any credence.

1) I am not sure if I could reduce the possibility to zero. It simply approaches zero to the point that unless overwhelming evidence were to be found for Evolution, any respectable scientist should not even raise the possibility of its occurrence.

2) Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe, a microbiologist, provides a convincing argument upon this subject.
The eye is often cited as an example of irreduceable complexity. Mutations and adaptations could not have altered the genes of any pre-existing creature to the point where not only would it have developed an organ possible of receiving light and transferring it into an electrical signal, but also capable of tansmitting that signal along a extremely precise path into the brain where it is translated back into an image for the organism to use to respond to the world.
Even down at the level of a cell, life is extremely complex. If one of the organelles in a cell were to work improperly, the entire cell would die. In order for any cell to operate, many of its components must have formed in exactly the same place at exactly the same time, which is quite simply ridiculous if it were to be left to chance.


Well how do even know it approaches zero? There is no evidence for that. In fact because we can observe other aspects of evolution easily, I could just as easily say it approaches one.

And your eye example is inapposite. There are several different types of eye found in the natural world that are anatomically, neuro-anatomically and bio-chemically distinct. So it's hardly irreducibly complex.

Also several mechanisms have been proposed for the evolution of eyeballs.

Hack just locked an "Ask a..." thread of someone else concerning Christianity. I assume this one will be next.

Hack just locked an "Ask a..." thread of someone else concerning Christianity. I assume this one will be next.

I did pose that question earlier.

I admit that I do not know how something as complex as the eye could be programmed by genes and genetic mutations and the such, but to deny that evolution occurs at all is to deny an overwhelming ammount of scientific evidence.

Well how do even know it approaches zero? There is no evidence for that. In fact because we can observe other aspects of evolution easily, I could just as easily say it approaches one.

And your eye example is inapposite. There are several different types of eye found in the natural world that are anatomically, neuro-anatomically and bio-chemically distinct. So it's hardly irreducibly complex.

Also several mechanisms have been proposed for the evolution of eyeballs.
It approaches zero because of the complexity of life. Parts of the fossil record have been shown to disagree with the current Evolutionary model. I have not seen evidence of Evolution to the point that it becomes a rational option.
While there are other examples of the eye in other organisms, the human eye has a series of chemical transmitters that are all precise and all absolutely necessary for the eye to work. It could not operate if one of them were missing, ergo irreduceably complex.
I really enjoy your input, but I have to go to bed, so if you don't mind, I'm going to head to bed and read all your arguments in the morning with a fresh and hopefully open mind. Who knows? What you post tonight might change my mind, but what I desire most of all is a reason for WHY Evolution is credible.

pie is overwhelmingly accepted over cake i the agnostic society. do atheists love pie as well or do you prefer cake?