NationStates Jolt Archive

I am I high schooler in Idaho, a strongly Republican state. I was recently transferred to a new first period class with a strongly Republican teacher. Since then I have been in detention twice and done a lot of extra work as punishment. My crime? I refuse to pledge my allegiance to the flag. You see, in Idaho it’s required by law that every student says the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before the start of class.

“While you’re in my class you'll say the Pledge of Allegiance. If you don’t like it, find a new first period teacher,” she says every morning and then she mumbles under her breath, “or move to China and see how you like it.” How is America any different from a fascist state of I’m not free to dislike it and required to vow my devotion to it?

So, at the risk of suspension or expulsion I mutter a nice quote that I saw on the back of a kid’s NOFX T-shirt, “I pledge my grievance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republicans for whom I can’t stand. One nation, under smog and despicable… With liberty just for us not all.”

Should the Pledge of Allegiance be mandatory for every student?

No you shouldn't have to pledge allegiance. That's like communist russia. Soon you'll be saluting statues of GW Bush, and not allowed to say anything remotely anti-patriotic. Pump up the valuum

Pledging, no
Standing up, yes

There is a distinct difference in the two.

I dont understand why we have it in the first place

Should the Pledge of Allegiance be mandatory for every student?

My first instinct is that it shouldnt be mandatory, that it should be the students choice as to wether they pledge allegiance to anything.

Having said that, maybe its a good thing for a nation of immigrants to have, y know? Something that reminds the entire class that regardless of race, religon or whatever that everyone in the class is American.

You shouldn't be forced to, but comments about fascism and the USSR are over the top. As are the China ones.

Pledging, no
Standing up, yes

There is a distinct difference in the two.
Why? it's my right to disrespect the flag as long as I don't shout at it in class.

I dont understand why we have it in the first place

No kidding. Like without it all the kids will become communists. Let's all join the 21st century shall we?

I dont understand why we have it in the first place

to show that we appreciate our country
i am sure u have head this before but here it goes
Many men have died for your freedom
if you would rather have a king or dictador please be my guest GO to china but a reminder they make you say pledges,bow,read books and basicly worship the ruler (name escapes me)

I think it isn't much to ask people to say the pledge

the whole under god thing is a whole diffenernt matter i won't get into right now

No kidding. Like without it all the kids will become communists. Let's all join the 21st century shall we?
US govt. is all for freedom of speech and expression, yet anything other than capitalism is often frowned upon and you have to be happy about talking a load of nonsense to a scrap of material. It's like my primary school forcing me to pray even though I didn't believe in God. Fucking fascism

I am I high schooler in Idaho, a strongly Republican state. I was recently transferred to a new first period class with a strongly Republican teacher. Since then I have been in detention twice and done a lot of extra work as punishment. My crime? I refuse to pledge my allegiance to the flag. You see, in Idaho it’s required by law that every student says the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before the start of class.

“While you’re in my class you'll say the Pledge of Allegiance. If you don’t like it, find a new first period teacher,” she says every morning and then she mumbles under her breath, “or move to China and see how you like it.” How is America any different from a fascist state of I’m not free to dislike it and required to vow my devotion to it?

So, at the risk of suspension or expulsion I mutter a nice quote that I saw on the back of a kid’s NOFX T-shirt, “I pledge my grievance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republicans for whom I can’t stand. One nation, under smog and despicable… With liberty just for us not all.”

Should the Pledge of Allegiance be mandatory for every student?
you should say it.

Why? it's my right to disrespect the flag as long as I don't shout at it in class.

And there is absolutely no disrespect intended by refusing to pledge allegiance.

to show that we appreciate our country
i am sure u have head this before but here it goes
Many men have died for your freedom
if you would rather have a king or dictador please be my guest GO to china but a reminder they make you say pledges,bow,read books and basicly worship the ruler (name escapes me)

I think it isn't much to ask people to say the pledge

the whole under god thing is a whole diffenernt matter i won't get into right now

So forty-something words is adequate portrayal of our appreciation of the country? How many students that are forced to recite the pledge every morning do you think even consider what they're saying? If it's a show of our appreciation for this country, then I think it's a pretty pathetic one.

You shouldn't have to state the pledge, but you should have to stand up, be quiet and show respect for it. If you're going to live and benefit from this nation you can atleast stand for the pledge.

Why? it's my right to disrespect the flag as long as I don't shout at it in class.
Actually, standing up means your giving respect for the dead soldiers that fought for America since the Revolutionary War. Perhaps even earlier...

to show that we appreciate our country
i am sure u have head this before but here it goes
Many men have died for your freedom
if you would rather have a king or dictador please be my guest GO to china but a reminder they make you say pledges,bow,read books and basicly worship the ruler (name escapes me)

I think it isn't much to ask people to say the pledge

the whole under god thing is a whole diffenernt matter i won't get into right now

Why should I be forced to pledge allegiance to any nation? I thought this was supposed to be the land of the free. Dictators and democracy are no different when allegiance is enforced.

You shouldn't have to state the pledge, but you should have to stand up, be quiet and show respect for it. If you're going to live and benefit from this nation you can atleast stand for the pledge.
I can understand benefitting and giving help for/to the common person, but a country? It's just a piece of land. Be thankful quietly, and let people think freely

OK - I am not from the US but it seems to me that if you force a pledge of allegience to anything under threat of punishment/retribution, then at best you are getting a bunch of automatons who ritually mouth the words with no sincerity or belief and a whole bunch of resentment. You would be better off showing people (especially kids) why they should feel allegience/loyalty to (insert institution of your choice) rather than compel it. Words stated under compulsion are rarely sincerely felt.

You shouldn't have to state the pledge, but you should have to stand up, be quiet and show respect for it. If you're going to live and benefit from this nation you can atleast stand for the pledge.
definatly. people will use and abuse all the rights that the US gives you, just to disrespect the country. i hate that, it really gets on my nerves. there is no where better to live than the US.

Yes, particularly for those who are too young to understand or appreciate the incredible sacrifices necessary to allow them to grow to adulthood free from fear and want. Get out into the real world, mature a bit, then decide if you want to dishonor your own nation.

Actually, standing up means your giving respect for the dead soldiers that fought for America since the Revolutionary War. Perhaps even earlier...
Yes, but Revolutionary War soldiers were making a stand against a government they saw as oppressive.

US govt. is all for freedom of speech and expression, yet anything other than capitalism is often frowned upon and you have to be happy about talking a load of nonsense to a scrap of material. It's like my primary school forcing me to pray even though I didn't believe in God. Fucking fascism

Yeah sure we're a fascist nation... The country where we actually allow you to not believe in God. In others countries they'd sooner shoot you than allow you to practice another religion(or lack thereof)

definatly. people will use and abuse all the rights that the US gives you, just to disrespect the country. i hate that, it really gets on my nerves. there is no where better to live than the US.
I prefer the UK. And don't be so damn arrogant. There are plenty of places better then the US to live.

Yes, but Revolutionary War soldiers were making a stand against a government they saw as oppressive.
and we are no longer under an oppresive government, as much as some people would like to believe so, the truth is we are NOT ruled by oppresive government.

So forty-something words is adequate portrayal of our appreciation of the country? How many students that are forced to recite the pledge every morning do you think even consider what they're saying? If it's a show of our appreciation for this country, then I think it's a pretty pathetic one.
well i did consider what i was saying i also took the time my teacher's allowed for silent reflection right after to think of the stuff my grandfather and other vets had told me

Yes, particularly for those who are too young to understand or appreciate the incredible sacrifices necessary to allow them to grow to adulthood free from fear and want. Get out into the real world, mature a bit, then decide if you want to dishonor your own nation.
Yes, but I shouldn't have the flag shoved down my throat

I prefer the UK. And don't be so damn arrogant. There are plenty of places better then the US to live.
where and why?

Yeah sure we're a fascist nation... The country where we actually allow you to not believe in God. In others countries they'd sooner shoot you than allow you to practice another religion(or lack thereof)
Fascist nations don't actively encourage religion. Fascism strives for complete control of the citizens and a totally free market. Like where General Pinochet was the leader

and we are no longer under an oppresive government, as much as some people would like to believe so, the truth is we are NOT ruled by oppresive government.
Rosa Luxemburg once said, "One does not notice their chains if they do not move." America is oppressive. maybe it was intended to be in 1776 but it is something completely different then it was 200 years ago.

where and why?
The UK:
No death penalty
Less violent weather
No flag worshipping
The press show actual news from outside the country or the country's favourite places (Iraq)
Economy hasn't recessed since the Lawson Boom of the early '90s
Govt. not affected as much my multinationals

Here in Milwaukee, we are not required at all to stand. BUT we must keep respect for those who do decide to stand. We also are asked to keep silence while the pledge is being told. But no, we are not threatened to stand for the pledge or anything really, just to show respect for those who wish to state it, and stand for it.

to show that we appreciate our country
i am sure u have head this before but here it goes
Many men have died for your freedom
if you would rather have a king or dictador please be my guest GO to china but a reminder they make you say pledges,bow,read books and basicly worship the ruler (name escapes me)

I think it isn't much to ask people to say the pledge

the whole under god thing is a whole diffenernt matter i won't get into right now
So your solution to not liking living in an unfree society, is to move to a less free unfree society...., I suggest this is useless advice at best. :rolleyes:

Why not suggest they move to somewhere that they dont live under a dictator, and where they are as free or more free, where people also died and sacrificed for that freedom, and where the society is not so insecure about that freedom that they make laws forcing themselves to give it up in order to praise it? (For instance Milwaukee.)

You dont prove you are grateful for freedom, by throwing it away over chants. People either want to say it or they dont. You are proving and creating no gratefulness of freedom whatsoever, by removing someone's freedom in order to force them to express lip service to something that you've provably taken away from them. Honestly it does sound like a facist state, forcing children to chant state-affirming oaths in schools?! :eek:

Rosa Luxemburg once said, "One does not notice their chains if they do not move." America is oppressive. maybe it was intended to be in 1776 but it is something completely different then it was 200 years ago.
how is america oppresive...?

Yes, particularly for those who are too young to understand or appreciate the incredible sacrifices necessary to allow them to grow to adulthood free from fear and want. Get out into the real world, mature a bit, then decide if you want to dishonor your own nation.

believe me, Eutrusca, I am very greatfull for sacrifices that have been made for the US, but why not let people mature a bit and decide for themselves? Forcing people to say a pledge does not make them mean it.

how is america oppresive...?
And we're back to being forced to pledge allegiance to the flag.
People aren't allowed to enter the country without a goddamn retinal scan. Or did they stop that?

well i did consider what i was saying i also took the time my teacher's allowed for silent reflection right after to think of the stuff my grandfather and other vets had told me

Congratulations, you're one out of 16 million. Do you think the majority of 1st graders are thinking about the noble sacrifices of American soldiers during those moments of silence, or thinking about recess? Perhaps, instead of a 45 second statement and a brief timeout serving as allegiance, we could teach children why they should be grateful of America.

This message is for the original poster.

I am not a lawyer but a cursory examination of the Idaho Code indicates that your teacher is wrong. The law appears to require that the pledge be recited but no individual can be compelled to participate.

If you have a religious objection to pledging an oath of allegiance to a symbol or government, you have a further well-established constitutional right not to participate.

If you have not already done so, please inform your parents of what is going on. Then you and they could confront the teacher and, if need be, the principal of your school. Please be polite but firm; you are simply demanding what is yours by law, which is the "liberty and justice for all" promised by the pledge and for which the flag stands. The teacher is wrong to single you out and indeed seems to be breaking Idaho law in forcing you to participate in the pledge over your objections.

Here is the relevant statute:

TITLE 33
EDUCATION
CHAPTER 16
COURSES OF INSTRUCTION
33-1602. UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION -- NATIONAL FLAG AND COLORS --
NATIONAL ANTHEM -- "AMERICA" -- CITIZENSHIP. (1) Instruction in the
Constitution of the United States shall be given in all elementary and
secondary schools. The state board of education shall adopt such materials as
may be deemed necessary for said purpose, and shall also determine the grades
in which such instruction shall be given.
(2) Instruction in the proper use, display and history of and respect for
the American flag and the national colors shall be given in all elementary and
secondary schools. Such instruction shall include the pledge of allegiance to
the flag, the words and music of the national anthem, and of "America."
(3) Every school board of trustees shall cause the United States flag to
be displayed in every classroom during the school hours of each school day.
(4) Every public school shall offer the pledge of allegiance or the
national anthem in grades one (1) through twelve (12) at the beginning of each
school day.
(5) No pupil shall be compelled, against the pupil's objections or those
of the pupil's parent or guardian, to recite the pledge of allegiance or to
sing the national anthem.
[(6)](3) Instruction in citizenship shall be given in all elementary and
secondary schools. Citizenship instruction shall include lessons on the role
of a citizen in a constitutional republic, how laws are made, how officials
are elected, and the importance of voting and of participating in government.
Such instruction shall also include the importance of respecting and obeying
statutes which are validly and lawfully enacted by the Idaho legislature and
the congress of the United States.

The UK:
No death penalty
Less violent weather
No flag worshipping
The press show actual news from outside the country or the country's favourite places (Iraq)
Economy hasn't recessed since the Lawson Boom of the early '90s
Govt. not affected as much my multinationals
1) i agree with the death penalty (diff subject for diff time)
2) weather depends on where you are in US
3) i luv the flag, to me it represents this country, which i luv.
4) the press here does go to iraq all the time when it comes to international news, but not all the time. also, it depends on the news station you choose to watch, some hardly touch iraq.
5) our economy was the best in the world for how long? a reccesion was excpected, it should bounce back though.
6) true.

US govt. is all for freedom of speech and expression, yet anything other than capitalism is often frowned upon and you have to be happy about talking a load of nonsense to a scrap of material. It's like my primary school forcing me to pray even though I didn't believe in God. Fucking fascism

Well, I personally frown upon all things un-capitalist...but, yeah, reciting something to a colored scrap of material is meaningless.

Outsider veiw here: I agree with you guys that it probably shouldn't be manditory but I also don't think that ignoring it is the way to do it (sounds a bit like what your saying is I have all these right and I'm gonna exercise em by not being gratefull for them). Its like I don't like being considered "British" but I'll still stand when Rule Britanina is played as a sign of respect until the time comes when Scotland is no longer part of the UK then I'll only stand for Flower of Scotland (which I do neway)

And we're back to being forced to pledge allegiance to the flag.
People aren't allowed to enter the country without a goddamn retinal scan. Or did they stop that?

Do they have pledges in any other countries?

1:The UK:
2:No death penalty
3:Less violent weather
4:No flag worshipping
5:The press show actual news from outside the country or the country's favourite places (Iraq)
6:Economy hasn't recessed since the Lawson Boom of the early '90s
7:Govt. not affected as much my multinationals
i added nimbers
1:never been there
2:well what of an eye for an eye
3:i like my storms
4:so we like our people to show some respect for those that went before
5:i cant argue there
6:so what we still pull through
7:i dont follow that statement

Do they have pledges in any other countries?
not in the UK. Then again, that might be difficult, considering we have at least 2 flags per country, and the problems it might cause in NI over loyalism and republicanism

Less violent weather


Really depends on where in the country. It's pretty big remember; we don't all live in Florida (and I thank my personal god everyday that I do not).

We don't have any enforced pledges or the like where I come from. I see it as a form of respect for the ability of people to make their own informed decisions regarding their allegience or otherwise.

i added nimbers
1:never been there
2:well what of an eye for an eye Are you Jewish? If not, an eye for an eye was recanted by jesus inplace of love thy neighbour (i think)
3:i like my stormsI think I'd quite like to be a storm chaser, but living in tornado alley would suck supreme
4:so we like our people to show some respect for those that went beforeSo do we: there are other ways of showing respect than pledging e.g. we have various charities like your veteran charities. My grandfather wa a D-Day medic, so don't think I'm ungrateful
5:i cant argue there
6:so what we still pull through
7:i dont follow that statementStuff like Ford helping the govt. a little so that a new car safety issue whivh could be costly is not allowed in

OK?

We don't have any enforced pledges or the like where I come from. I see it as a form of respect for the ability of people to make their own informed decisions regarding their allegience or otherwise.
I might say it if i didn't have to pledge it to a state that requires me to

personally i dont think we should be forced to, but i believe that we should say it anyways. it shows respect to the country and everyone who has fought to protect it in anyway. saying the pledge says that you appreciate what freedoms you have. you do have the right to not say it, and i'm sure a lot of you like that, but you should at least be thankful for that right. saying the pledge is almost a way of saying thank you for that right.

personally i dont think we should be forced to, but i believe that we should say it anyways. it shows respect to the country and everyone who has fought to protect it in anyway. saying the pledge says that you appreciate what freedoms you have. you do have the right to not say it, and i'm sure a lot of you like that, but you should at least be thankful for that right. saying the pledge is almost a way of saying thank you for that right.
unfortunately, for those who don't say it, they have the possibility of becoming outcasts, and vice versa. A simple thing such as saying a few words may lead to more bullying. Could anyone condone that?

OK?
I'M NOT A JEW!!!!!!!!!!!!
and my grandfather drove landing craft on D-day and at okanowa

I'M NOT A JEW!!!!!!!!!!!!
and my grandfather drove landing craft on D-day and at okanowa
Wow, gettin a bit anti-semite on me there. Why did you react so adversely to the suggestion that you might be Jewish. It was based purely on the grounds of your suggestion of an eye for an eye, kept by jews for its presence in the torah but not truly used by christians thanks to Jesus basically contradicting it.

And I wasn't suggesting you didn't have family members in WWII, I was just saying I wasn't forgetting all of the achievements - or losses - for my liberties. I lost my great grandfather over Dresden

Absolutely not. Nobody should be forced to pledge allegiance to anything.

Wow, gettin a bit anti-semite on me there. Why did you react so adversely to the suggestion that you might be Jewish. It was based purely on the grounds of your suggestion of an eye for an eye, kept by jews for its presence in the torah but not truly used by christians thanks to Jesus basically contradicting it.

And I wasn't suggesting you didn't have family members in WWII, I was just saying I wasn't forgetting all of the achievements - or losses - for my liberties. I lost my great grandfather over Dresden
well if you know of other nations i have/had you probably would not have sugested i'm a jew

well if you know of other nations i have/had you probably would not have sugested i'm a jew
why are you a *spits* nazi or *spits* KKK member?

You've gotten a fascinating thread going! Thanks.

Personally? Well, while respect for the things for which the flag stands should be offered without coersion, an oath of fealty to the flag would make our Founding Fathers shudder in disgust.

They went out of their way to ensure that the flag, in and of itself, has no rights, power, nor authority. That's part of the reason that there are no laws governing the treatment, use, and display of the flag. It was one of the things they disliked of the other governments of their time.

The Pledge of Allegience didn't come about until around 1908, as I recall. The phrase "under god" in 1952.

Stand for the passing of the flag, the anthem, or the raising/lowering of a flag? Absolutely, if you can. That should be the normal habit, no matter in which country you are or your own nationality. That's respect, and the things for which a national flag stands are deserving of it. A Pledge? Society may request it of us, but our Constitution does not require it.

why are you a *spits* nazi or *spits* KKK member?
thanks for the spit shine on the boots
a bit of both realy

thanks for the spit shine on the boots
a bit of both realy
Seriously or not. Because I hold racism and xenophobia as two of the worst things anyone can do. Jewish people are no different in intellect or physical attributes from any other damn person, and anyone who suggests otherwise is a damn fool

Yes, but I shouldn't have the flag shoved down my throat

Asking you to recite the Pledge of Alliegence is "shoving the flag down your throat?" That simply does not compute.

Asking you to recite the Pledge of Alliegence is "shoving the flag down your throat?" That simply does not compute.
He means having politics he does not believe in forced upon him. Go back to sleep dear, it'll be all better in the morning

He means having politics he does not believe in forced upon him. Go back to sleep dear, it'll be all better in the morning

Condescention does not become you.

What politics? How forced? By whom?

I don't say the Pledge (my allegiance is to God, not America, much less its flag), so obviously I voted no).

Asking you to recite the Pledge of Alliegence is "shoving the flag down your throat?" That simply does not compute.
If I remember what I said correctly I've been in detention twice and had extra work because I'm being "asked" to say the pledge

Condescention does not become you.

What politics? How forced? By whom?
The US politics. By giving him detentions until he says the pledge. By his teacher. Read his first post

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists

The question is completely moot as is the entire discussion.

The U.S. Supreme Court has already held, in 1943, that a compulsory pledge requirement is unconstitutional. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624.

Asking you to recite the Pledge of Alliegence is "shoving the flag down your throat?" That simply does not compute.
Well, asking and making it mandatory are two different things, right?
Anyway, if someone ought to mature before refusing to pledge allegiance, shouldn't he have to mature before he decides he wants to pledge allegiance? I mean, if I was loyal to the US I wouldn't want someone saying the words if he isn't mature enough to really mean them.
Why do you need a pledge? There's none in Canada, and I don't know many Canadians who hate Canada.... aside from the seperatists.

Oh, and by the way, The Tribes Of Longton: He's right. Condescension does not become you.

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists
I voted no. I'm not a communist

it seems to me that it is clearly wrong to force anyone to say the pledge of allegiance if one does not want to. That is a clear cut violation of the Freedom of Speech. If this is a big enough deal take it to court. There is no sarcasm there. If you really don't want to be forced to say it, if it is that important that you have to get this changed, they only way to do it is take it to court. Heck, the US Supreme Court would love to hear this case. Obviously the Idaho court system would most likely not overturn the law. Also, if you are worried about legal fees, all that needs to be done is tack on legal fees as part of the compensation in the law suit you file.

In my opinion, either you feel passionately enough to do everything you can to change what you feel is wrong, or you don't actually care as much as you thought. Take a little while and think about it, you might suprise yourself as to what you come up with.

It was based purely on the grounds of your suggestion of an eye for an eye, kept by jews for its presence in the torah but not truly used by christians thanks to Jesus basically contradicting it.
Absolutely. In fact, I think "basically contradicting" is not strong enough. He specifically repealed it:

Matthew 5:38-42:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

One of my #1 pet peeves is "Christians" citing "eye for an eye" in favor of the death penalty but conveniently forgetting it no longer applies. And what about John 8:1-7?

"Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

I don't see any New Testament jusitification for the death penalty.

The question is completely moot as is the entire discussion.

The U.S. Supreme Court has already held, in 1943, that a compulsory pledge requirement is unconstitutional. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624.
My teacher minored in Law in Schools or sumthin like that. She tells me every time. She says she knows my rights and here i have none

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists
I'm not a communist, but I'm not american either. Why does being american have any bearing on this?

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists

Please read the first amendment to the constitution (this prohibits the government from not only telling you want you absolutely cannot say, but also prohibits the government of telling you what you absolutely have to say also.) If that is communism, then everyone in America is a communist.

Oh yeah, by the way, if you think it is supposed to be an insult to call someone a communist, please get back in your time machine and go back to the 60's or 70's, which ever you came from.

Absolutely. In fact, I think "basically contradicting" is not strong enough. He specifically repealed it:

Matthew 5:38-42:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."

One of my #1 pet peeves is "Christians" citing "eye for an eye" in favor of the death penalty but conveniently forgetting it no longer applies. And what about John 8:1-7?

"Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

I don't see any New Testament jusitification for the death penalty.
ts not really most christians who still use theeye for an eye thing - just the ones who find it convenient to make their causes 'just'

Plus, the law is relatively new. My sister wrote an essay on it when she was my age 6 years ago because its passing was big news

My teacher minored in Law in Schools or sumthin like that. She tells me every time. She says she knows my rights and here i have none

Yes, well, your teacher is wrong.

Next time she tries to force you to say the pledge, you simply say, "West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624".

Tell her to go look it up and shove it up her ass. :)

Please read the first amendment to the constitution (this prohibits the government from not only telling you want you absolutely cannot say, but also prohibits the government of telling you what you absolutely have to say also.) If that is communism, then everyone in America is a communist.

Oh yeah, by the way, if you think it is supposed to be an insult to call someone a communist, please get back in your time machine and go back to the 60's or 70's, which ever you came from.
Well done, sir. You have just highlighted the fact that some people would like to go back to the McCarthy witchunts. I applaud you.

*claps him on the back*

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists

The issue is not an economic system, it's forced nationalism. I am a radical capitalist, and I voted no.

I'm not sure if anyone's made thos point yet, but he's a minor; he can't legally leave the country.

Also, how can you argue for people being forced to say something? Once that happens, it becomes propaghanda, no matter what you think of the acual statement.

Plus, the law is relatively new. My sister wrote an essay on it when she was my age 6 years ago because its passing was big news


The Supreme Court decision that declared compulsory Pledge reciting for school children unconstituional was handed down in 1943. That's not new. "Under God" wasn't even in the Pledge yet.

The US politics. By giving him detentions until he says the pledge. By his teacher. Read his first post

Condescention again. Why do you do that? Is it just habit, or are you simply trying to goad me?

It wasn't clear to me how the three ( pledge of allegiance, coercion, and politics ) related from reading your post. It still isn't. How on earth is that "politics?"

Being required to recite the Pledge of Allegience by a state teacher, in a state public school, has nothing to do with either the Federal government or politics. It's simply short-sighteness on the part of the teacher.

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists
A Commie? Where?! :sniper: :rolleyes:

Pledging, no
Standing up, yes

There is a distinct difference in the two.
particularly for exchange students!

Condescention again. Why do you do that? Is it just habit, or are you simply trying to goad me?

It wasn't clear to me how the three ( pledge of allegiance, coercion, and politics ) related from reading your post. It still isn't. How on earth is that "politics?"

Being required to recite the Pledge of Allegience by a state teacher, in a state public school, has nothing to do with either the Federal government or politics. It's simply short-sighteness on the part of the teacher.
You asked 3 questions. I answered them. Concisely, unless that is not allowed. I also asked you to read the first post. It's not condescending, that would be calling you diddums or treating you like you were 6. I did neither.


And being forced to say the pledge is being forced to state your allegiance to a country, its policies and its choices, hence related to the politics. This individual may not accept any of this, or see the US as just a strip of land which he happens to live on.

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists
...And I was sooo close to congradulating the conservatives on not calling me a commie for disliking america

...And I was sooo close to congradulating the conservatives on not calling me a commie for disliking america
yeah, like that would ever happen. Damn commie pinko's (sarcasm)

Being required to recite the Pledge of Allegience by a state teacher, in a state public school, has nothing to do with either the Federal government or politics. It's simply short-sighteness on the part of the teacher.
One might argue that the teacher is a symptom of the problem, which exists in the country's politics; just dancing to big brother's tune.
Then again, one might need to take off the tin foil hat. It just fits me so well, though. :(

It does seem only a small incident. Now, if this was more widespread, different story. I could look into it, but I just don't have the motivation.

One might argue that the teacher is a symptom of the problem, which exists in the country's politics; just dancing to big brother's tune.
Then again, one might need to take off the tin foil hat. It just fits me so well, though. :(

It does seem only a small incident. Now, if this was more widespread, different story. I could look into it, but I just don't have the motivation.
Damn govt. mind control using microwaves from satellites (again, sarcasm rife in this statement. No seriousness involved)

how is america oppresive...?
Ask an American Indian

And being forced to say the pledge is being forced to state your allegiance to a country, its policies and its choices, hence related to the politics. This individual may not accept any of this, or see the US as just a strip of land which he happens to live on.
Now, I don't know quite how the pledge goes, never having said it myself, but I was under the impression that it wasn't about agreeing with all the decisions the government makes, but with pledging allegiance to the ideals behind a nation. Now, that's not necessarily synonymous with the government, because the nation is considered to be above the governing bodies and the nation is what you're pledging allegiance to, along with the flag (which always struck me as a bit like idol worship... but, whatever.)

Damn govt. mind control using microwaves from satellites (again, sarcasm rife in this statement. No seriousness involved)
Absolutely. Scary buggers.

And being forced to say the pledge is being forced to state your allegiance to a country, its policies and its choices, hence related to the politics. This individual may not accept any of this, or see the US as just a strip of land which he happens to live on.

Pledging Allegiance to the flag has nothing to do with the policies of the current government, the policies of the government, or the choices of the government. In fact, a good argument could be made that the Pledge of Allegiance has nothing whatsoever to do with the government of the US. It is a symbolic act, pledging allegience, or devotion, or a thousand other synonyms, to the Republic and its symbol, the flag. In that sense, it's a pledge to the Constitution, much like the oath taken when joining the military or taking public office.

Carrying that to its logical conclusion, if you're unwilling to take the Pledge of Allegiance, you're in effect saying you're unwilling to support the Constitution, which is the very foundation of the Republic. If you feel that strongly about it, perhaps you should leave? But, since we're talking about minors here, I still maintain that refusing to take the Pledge should be postponed until adulthood. Then you can decide to leave if you still feel that strongly about this symbolic act.

Yes, it should be mandatory.

Hmmm... Things seem to be slowing down and we can't have that.

All of the people who said yes explain yourselves or I will now refer to you as "mindless fascists and nationalists"

Yes, it should be mandatory.


But it isn't ... and to make it mandatory is unconstitutional ... so ... end this silly argument!

1.no i did not read all of this 2.to all 55 (at the time of this post" who said no or dont care all of you can go live in some fu-cking comie country and see how you like it you should be prould to live in a place that you can say the pledge there is this girl in my class who does not say the pledge every day so this is a pet pive of mine and if you dont like what i have to say then frankly you can go fu-ck your selves and i dont care who your are fellow nation or mod included and sense this has most likely came up allredy under god should be left in the pledge cause this nation was founded under him just like the pledge says and as i said above if you dont like then to da-mn bad!

1.no i did not read all of this 2.to all 55 (at the time of this post" who said no or dont care all of you can go live in some ****ing comie country and see how you like it you should be prould to live in a place that you can say the pledge there is this girl in my class who does not say the pledge every day so this is a pet pive of mine and if you dont like what i have to say then frankly you can go **** your selves and i dont care who your are fellow nation or mod included and sense this has most likely came up allredy under god should be left in the pledge cause this nation was founded under him just like the pledge says and as i said above if you dont like then to **** bad!
What does **** mean?

it should have been blantent but for the "specal" people who ride the short bus i changed it

it should have been blantent but for the "specal" people who ride the short bus i changed it
What's a specal person?

to show that we appreciate our country
i am sure u have head this before but here it goes
Many men have died for your freedom
if you would rather have a king or dictador please be my guest GO to china but a reminder they make you say pledges,bow,read books and basicly worship the ruler (name escapes me)

I think it isn't much to ask people to say the pledge

the whole under god thing is a whole diffenernt matter i won't get into right now

America isn't the only country who has had soldiers die for your freedom. I don't know of many other such countries that legally require you to repeat a forced pledge of loyalty every day -- because they're free countries. Doesn't mean you respect the lives of the men and women who died any less. You shouldn't need a pledge for that sort of thing.

What's a specal person?

a mentelily retarded being you twit and if your not being a jack as$ god help you

1st of all: The Pledge should not be mandatory because i have the right to remain silent...

2nd of all: You're pledging to a strategically colored piece of nylon, how smart do you feel now

3rd of all: The soldiers didn't die for this country, they died because of it.

4th of all: That whole "under God" argument is completely invalid because it does not, in any way, establish a religion. The Fist amendment was written not so that religion takes no place in government, it's so government can take no place in religion. There is no such thing as 'separation of church and state.' That was something Jefferson made reference to in a letter and is not part of the constitution.

a mentelily retarded being you twit and if your not being a jack as$ god help you

Did you really just say 'mentelily retarded'?

I'm a liberal(one of the most radical I know)

And I'm going with the conservatives on this one. Nationalism is very important. I firmly believe in love of ones nation.

no i said dumb as$

What's a specal person?
And what's blantent? :p

But as an Aussie, I think things like that are plain silly. We had some oath thing that we had to say... um...
"I honour my God, I serve my Queen and I salute the flag." And we had to salute.
It basically just cracked us up every time. But then maybe Aussie kids are more irreverent...
And where did that leave us atheists/agnostics/polytheists and republicans? (I use the word in the non-party sense- as in someone who doesn't want us to be a constitutional monarchy anymore! Not n the conservative party way... We call them liberals here... :p )

a mentelily retarded being you twit and if your not being a jack as$ god help you
*snigger*

"That whole "under God" argument is completely invalid because it does not, in any way, establish a religion. The Fist amendment was written not so that religion takes no place in government, it's so government can take no place in religion. There is no such thing as 'separation of church and state.' That was something Jefferson made reference to in a letter and is not part of the constitution."

Mr. Abdeus, meet the establishment clause.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

no i said dumb as$

Oh, sorry. My mistake. What's it like on the 'short bus', by the way?

3rd of all: The soldiers didn't die for this country, they died because of it.
You tell that to the people who are in Iraq right now dying for this country. You tell that to the people who lsitened to those who died sayign that they were dying for this country. To say that is completely disrespecting them. Almost everyone in this country would die for it... those who love it anyways...

Ghargonia you ignerant fool i was being a smart ass
and csw you took that from the other page
and BTW when you can
break the code in my sig then i will only think of you as a compleat dumbass

oh and for the love of god i hope all this gets through your thick skulls

1.no i did not read all of this 2.to all 55 (at the time of this post" who said no or dont care all of you can go live in some fu-cking comie country and see how you like it you should be prould to live in a place that you can say the pledge there is this girl in my class who does not say the pledge every day so this is a pet pive of mine and if you dont like what i have to say then frankly you can go fu-ck your selves and i dont care who your are fellow nation or mod included and sense this has most likely came up allredy under god should be left in the pledge cause this nation was founded under him just like the pledge says and as i said above if you dont like then to da-mn bad!


You know - the above quote is why you should be concentrating on your education rather than the actions of another person in your class. Obviously you still need a lot of help with your spelling and grammar. You only undermine your point when you rant in such an illiterate, incoherent fashion. Normally I won't pick at peoples' english skills here because it could be a second language, but you obviously go to school in the US, so I assume you are taught how to spell and express yourself in english. It would really help your case if you could express it clearly. As it is, you come across as an undereducated extremist with very poor language skills. You may not be, but I can only make my judgement based on your posts...

Ghargonia you ignerant fool i was being a smart ass
and csw you took that from the other page
and BTW when you can
break the code in my sig then i will only think of you as a compleat dumbass

oh and for the love of god i hope all this gets through your thick skulls
I'll be sure to get right on that.

You tell that to the people who are in Iraq right now dying for this country. You tell that to the people who lsitened to those who died sayign that they were dying for this country. To say that is completely disrespecting them. Almost everyone in this country would die for it... those who love it anyways...
I don't believe it's disrespectful at all.
I mean, if we're talking about Iraq, how is/was it ever related to the US's security? It wasn't.
That is the fault of the administration, rather than the rank and file of the military.

I know I'll be drowned out in the commie cesspool, but I still gotta say: Don't mess with the Pledge. ;) :cool:

You know - the above quote is why you should be concentrating on your education rather than the actions of another person in your class. Obviously you still need a lot of help with your spelling and grammar. You only undermine your point when you rant in such an illiterate, incoherent fashion. Normally I won't pick at peoples' english skills here because it could be a second language, but you obviously go to school in the US, so I assume you are taught how to spell and express yourself in english. It would really help your case if you could express it clearly. As it is, you come across as an undereducated extremist with very poor language skills. You may not be, but I can only make my judgement based on your posts...

well excuse the flying flip outa me for not being able to spell like a damn yankey also when you can tell me the therey behind a gryoscopic electromagnetic power generater then you can critize my spelling.

I voted no. I'm not a communist

well if you're a american and you said no you're a socialist/communist/Liberal.Pretty much the same thing. It's just a thing people have to recite in school. It's supposed to make you proud to be living in america.

I know a socialist/communist/Liberal is not the same thing but they have no problem being the same thing

well excuse the flying flip outa me for not being able to spell like a damn yankey also when you can tell me the therey behind a gryoscopic electromagnetic power generater then you can critize my spelling.
Yankee.


Oh, do tell, what is an electromagnetic gyroscopic power generator.

I know a socialist/communist/Liberal is not the same thing but they have no problem being the same thing
I know some Communists who'd be verry angry to be associated with "Liberals." Socialism on the other hand... depends what kind of socialism and how you define it...

And why make kids recite some hollow pledge at school?

I know some Communists who'd be verry angry to be associated with "Liberals." Socialism on the other hand... depends what kind of socialism and how you define it...

And why make kids recite some hollow pledge at school?

why sing a national anthem at soccer (futbol) games?to make you feel proud to be living in your country

why sing a national anthem at soccer (futbol) games?to make you feel proud to be living in your country
But it's not compulsory is it?
And besides, some people just aren't nationalistic...

Wow, what a crappy topic this has become!

And with no dignity from the topic poster either, he was just asking everyone to begin flaming!

But it's not compulsory is it?
And besides, some people just aren't nationalistic...

no one is going to get shot or imprisoned in america for not saying the national anthem.

I believe people should be able to choose what they say or not say. Never should a person be forced to pledge their allegiance to a flag. Why would you have allegiance to a flag. That should be reserved for more spiritual situations and between friends and mates.

I believe in the freedom of speach, even the right to not use it.

However, if someone else believes otherwise - so be it. I still don't have to.

Slender Goddess

no one is going to get shot or imprisoned in america for not saying the national anthem.
Psst, we're talking about the pledge of allegiance...

Yankee.


Oh, do tell, what is an electromagnetic gyroscopic power generator.

1. i dont give a flip about the spelling of "YANKEE" and it would take me about an hour to type out the therey of an "GYROSCOPIC ELECTROMAGNETIC" power generator to an effect that a twit who can not even get the name right, could under stand.

Psst, we're talking about the pledge of allegiance...

I ment the pledge of allegiance (damn PILSNER!!) it doesn't detract from my point.

1. i dont give a flip about the spelling of "YANKEE" and it would take me about an hour to type out the therey of an "GYROSCOPIC ELECTROMAGNETIC" power generator to an effect that a twit who can not even get the name right, could under stand.
According to the dictionary, I spelt "electromagnetic gyroscopic power generator" correctly, I just inverted the adjectives...which really doesn't matter.

But do tell. I have time.

If you love your country, you will do right by it, regardless of what you may profess.

If you don't, no oath, vow, or recitation is going to change your behavior.

Forcing an atheist to pray isn't going to convert them, and forcing a child to recite the pledge isn't going to make them more patriotic.

I ment the pledge of allegiance (damn PILSNER!!) it doesn't detract from my point.
Well yes, you don't.
But the point is, you get in trouble if you're at school, or technically you should. And I have a problem with that. People should be able to remain silent if they want.

According to the dictionary, I spelt "electromagnetic gyroscopic power generator" correctly, I just inverted the adjectives...which really doesn't matter.

But do tell. I have time.

oh contre it does sense the electromagnetic part of the device depends on the gyroscopic part and then agen vice-a-versa but the gyroscope start's it all off, oh and by the way grammer means shit in this case
you may have the time but i have more pressing matters to attend than baby sitting a fool of your magnitude.

oh contre it does sense the electromagnetic part of the device depends on the gyroscopic part and then agen vice-a-versa but the gyroscope start's it all off, oh and by the way grammer means shit in this case
you may have the time but i have more pressing matters to attend than baby sitting a fool of your magnitude.
Then why did you make that point?


Okay, fine. Called on a point, refused to support it. Not my problem.

So forty-something words is adequate portrayal of our appreciation of the country? How many students that are forced to recite the pledge every morning do you think even consider what they're saying? If it's a show of our appreciation for this country, then I think it's a pretty pathetic one.

It is isn't it,
I would have US citizens ... appreciate what they have but constitutional laws would seem to get in the way
plus fat lazy americans groan at 40 so words so anything mor emight kill em :mad:

unapreciating @$$holes

any of you americans in this thread who voted no are communists


Congradulations sir, you are an official, grade-A, USDA approved retard.

1. Disliking the U.S. or exercising one's freedoms does not speak to one's political alignment, usually to one's geographical location, and personal opinions.

2. Using the communist party and philosophy as an insult shows a depth of xenophobia, ethno-political-centrism and downright arrogance I can barely fathom. Show some respect for others beliefs.

well excuse the flying flip outa me for not being able to spell like a damn yankey also when you can tell me the therey behind a gryoscopic electromagnetic power generater then you can critize my spelling.


The concept is to produce a gyroscope based device that can produce sufficient amounts of lift/force to be detectable and useful. In an extreme case this may mean that the machine could lift its own weight and hence is able to fly or just to push something along. However research is still in its early stages and I've yet to see one that can create any force under proper test conditions.

Gyroscopic propulsion would have a number of uses on land, sea, air and space. What uses the device can do depends on the amount of force produced and its efficiency to produce that force. It may turn out that they can only ever produce a force a fractional of the weight of the device e.g. a 10Kg device give 1% thrust = 100g thrust. The weight to thrust ratio will define whether the technology can be used on land, sea and in the air.

However in space the devices come into their own and they would be useful even if they could only produce a small thrust compared to their mass. Rockets are used almost exclusively as a means of propelling something in space and although inefficient, it is the best we have at present. Assuming gyroscopic propulsion does work it provides a means of getting from A to B in space without taking your fuel up too. The devices could simply be solar powered so the fuel won't run out. Of course the device still needs a way to get it into space in the first place.

OK - now I may not be an expert on these things and my understanding of gyroscopic theory is not complete. As for the exact theory behind a generator, well, you are right - I am not completely conversant. But my point remains - you cannot get your message across without it being criticised (or if you are from the US criticized) if you are so interested in other peoples actions that you neglect your own education. Like it or not, literacy is pretty essential if you want to be taken seriously, no matter how intelligent you are.....

/pointless digression

Then why did you make that point?


Okay, fine. Called on a point, refused to support it. Not my problem.

idget

just so you will go insane trying to figur it out the way it works (in the simpalist way i can pot it) like a gyroscope with magnets atached on two points so that when it rotates it will creat enough power to well POWER itself and possibily another device as of this post the device is in early develipment and a working moddle has not ben bult as of yet ©2004 RIP PRODUCTIONS

auto log outs are such a bitch

So forty-something words is adequate portrayal of our appreciation of the country? How many students that are forced to recite the pledge every morning do you think even consider what they're saying? If it's a show of our appreciation for this country, then I think it's a pretty pathetic one. Hope you don't mind, but I found this to be quite a nice thought-- I'm going to steal it and keep it in records. :) Why? I dunno, so when I lose my memory I can be reminded of what I believe in.

Forcing you to say anything is very ANTI-american. Remmber you have the right to remain silent.

idget

just so you will go insane trying to figur it out the way it works (in the simpalist way i can pot it) like a gyroscope with magnets atached on two points so that when it rotates it will creat enough power to well POWER itself and possibily another device as of this post the device is in early develipment and a working moddle has not ben bult as of yet ©2004 RIP PRODUCTIONS

auto log outs are such a bitch
Ever hear of the first and second laws of thermodynamics?

Ever hear of the first and second laws of thermodynamics?

well you start off by (with your hand) spinning the gyroscope whitch in turn will cause a electric current to be produced that will be used to manily power a electric moter to keep the gyrscope spinning thus repiting the cycle ©2004 RIP PRODUCTIONS

BTW i dont know if this wil work but i am gona try

well you start off by (with your hand) spinning the gyroscope whitch in turn will cause a electric current to be produced that will be used to manily power a electric moter to keep the gyrscope spinning thus repiting the cycle ©2004 RIP PRODUCTIONS

BTW i dont know if this wil work but i am gona try
You are going to lose energy every time you convert it from mechanical to electrical. Can't/won't happen. Sorry.

god i need some sleep the post that i deleted like a dumb ass said that power ment electricty not propulshion

You are going to lose energy every time you convert it from mechanical to electrical. Can't/won't happen. Sorry.

1.why the hell should i lestion to you 2. i dont give a damn, i gona try eney way cause i sturborn as hell and who knows i might just pull it off just like you might just grow some balls about you and decide to think "OUT SIDE" the box one time in your life, like i do every day

1.why the hell should i restion to you 2. i dont give a damn i gona try eney way cause i sturborn as hell and who knows i might just pull it off just like you might just grow some balls about you and decide to think "OUT SIDE" the box one time in your life, like i do every day
Right. You do know that what you are suggesting would completely violate one of the central tenents of thermodynamics, right?

so the idea i had for a tellaportation device probly defies phices some where so in other words i dont care cause all that is is theroey eney way not fact like all of the other things we know (aka its all just theroey), if you think bout it im right in that sense

so the idea i had for a tellaportation device probly defies phices some where so in other words i dont care cause all that is is theroey eney way not fact like all of the other things we know (aka its all just theroey), if you think bout it im right in that sense
Uh, laws are facts FMP. Generally.

CSW lets just pick this up twomaro so i can think straght and maby type the same way check your TG's

How many of the 120 votes on this matter were American Citizens?

I don't stand cause i don't appreicate America. I don't say the pledge because i am not pledgeing to a country that kills cillivains becuase they were in the way. For reasons still unkown. I not going to promise with liberty and jutice for all when in fact many people in America are losing thier rights as citzens. Maybe if america appreaciated me i would stand but until then i got to save up my money to move to Germany.

It has gotten to the point where kids just drone along to the pledge. Be honest now. When they first taught it to you in Kindergarten didn't you get the words mixed up? Hell, till I was in about 4th grade I thought it was "one nation under guard" not "under god". Actually "guard" would be more appropriate. The stanza "one nation under god" wasn't even part of the original pledge. It was added in the 1950's to ferret out any communists at the time. Because, surely, if you were an upstanding US citizen you were Christian and would have no problem pledging to "god and country" and therefore you wouldn't be commie scum. Nice rationalization,eh? Sad to say with Republicans in power things are getting along those lines again what with the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, etc. So anyway, I suppose you could at least stand out of some semblance of respect for fallen soldiers and at the very least not to get into more trouble. Shoot mumble along, she'll just hear more droning and assume you're complying.

But it isn't ... and to make it mandatory is unconstitutional ... so ... end this silly argument!
Well so is the Patriot Act but it still exists. You live in America where the rights don't care about the constitution as long as they get their way

STOP DEBATING THERMODYNAMICS!!!! thats what making new threads is for

-,-

The original version should. I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all Bellamy was going to add equality but the school superintendants where he taught did not believe in equality for women and african americans so he left it out.


Edit - Obviously there would be no punishment for not saying it, but if the student council decided to say it over the intercom in homeroom or after announcements there would be no problem.

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America.
And to the republic for which it stands,
one nation under God,
Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I love saying this, every day, all alone. Other students are socializing, and I'm stating my allegiance to the United States and its beautiful flag.

I respect that soldiers died for what they believed in. I respect that they thought they were dying for people like me. I respect that they believed in what they did so strongly that they died for it.

However, that doesn't mean I have to like America or war and certainly don't have to pledge my allegiance to something I believe is wrong. I respect them but it doesn't mean I have to respect a country that I believe sent many of them to death in vain for the leaders' sick vital corporate interests (not to mention taking a few civilian casualties with them i.e. 4 million in Asians in the 70's, couple hundred thousand South Americans in the 80's, 1.5 million Iraqis in the 90's, 100,000 more since the invasion in 2003, and anyone that i missed)

I voted no, but conditionally ... the pledge isn't what I consider the violation, but rather the words "under God" as I firmly believe in seperation of church and state.

I respect that soldiers died for what they believed in. I respect that they thought they were dying for people like me. I respect that they believed in what they did so strongly that they died for it.

However, that doesn't mean I have to like America or war and certainly don't have to pledge my allegiance to something I believe is wrong. I respect them but it doesn't mean I have to respect a country that I believe sent many of them to death in vain for the leaders' sick vital corporate interests (not to mention taking a few civilian casualties with them i.e. 4 million in Asians in the 70's, couple hundred thousand South Americans in the 80's, 1.5 million Iraqis in the 90's, 100,000 more since the invasion in 2003, and anyone that i missed) By that last casualty figure I surmise you exaggerated the others. The lancet study is the biggest peice of quasi science I've seen referring to this war. What the study actually says is that there is a 95% certainty that the casualty figures lie between 8,000 and 194,000. They get the slightly more than 100,000 civvie deaths by taking the average. The study also wasn't properly randomized and as is any survey, especially ones about highly charged political/religious/emotional it is highly unreliable.

By that last casualty figure I surmise you exaggerated the others. The lancet study is the biggest peice of quasi science I've seen referring to this war. What the study actually says is that there is a 95% certainty that the casualty figures lie between 8,000 and 194,000. They get the slightly more than 100,000 civvie deaths by taking the average. The study also wasn't properly randomized and as is any survey, especially ones about highly charged political/religious/emotional it is highly unreliable.
The figures are based on surveys done by the researchers in Iraq in September 2004. They compared Iraqi deaths during 14.6 months before the invasion in March 2003 and the 17.8 months after it by conducting household surveys in randomly selected neighborhoods.

At the same time, they shouldn't play the National Anthem before any sports event. Infact they souldn't play the Natonal anthem ever! It's a violation of my rights to force me to listen about a song that glorifys fighting. Nevermind it's about my country dammit.

In 1943 the children of Jehovah’s Witnesses refused to participate in a mandatory Pledge of Allegiance in West Virginia public schools, because they believed that saluting the flag was bowing down to a graven image, which was forbidden in Exodus 20:4-5.

West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette

Speaking for the majority of the Court, Justice Robert Jackson said: “We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.”

“Freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”

So, recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is voluntary.

At the same time, they shouldn't play the National Anthem before any sports event. Infact they souldn't play the Natonal anthem ever! It's a violation of my rights to force me to listen about a song that glorifys fighting. Nevermind it's about my country dammit.
I can't tell if that's sarcasm or what. I mean, I don't like to hear it but i guess they're allowed to say it if they feel the need

STOP DEBATING THERMODYNAMICS!!!! thats what making new threads is for

-,-
Besides, the simple answer to the electromagnetic gyroscopic generator is this: it's perpetual motion. Can't happen

It is mandatory state-initiated IDOLATRY and it is a violation of the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

You don't have to GO to China to live in a dictatorship, your "freely" "elected" leaders are working hard every day to return the good ol' USA to that condition.

It should be banned, you should have to pledge to combat hypocrisy within your country since it is so rampant. But at least it is comforting to know you died for a flag, it's essentially personified/deified, quite hilarious.

I am I high schooler in Idaho, a strongly Republican state. I was recently transferred to a new first period class with a strongly Republican teacher. Since then I have been in detention twice and done a lot of extra work as punishment. My crime? I refuse to pledge my allegiance to the flag. You see, in Idaho it’s required by law that every student says the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before the start of class.

“While you’re in my class you'll say the Pledge of Allegiance. If you don’t like it, find a new first period teacher,” she says every morning and then she mumbles under her breath, “or move to China and see how you like it.” How is America any different from a fascist state of I’m not free to dislike it and required to vow my devotion to it?

So, at the risk of suspension or expulsion I mutter a nice quote that I saw on the back of a kid’s NOFX T-shirt, “I pledge my grievance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republicans for whom I can’t stand. One nation, under smog and despicable… With liberty just for us not all.”

Should the Pledge of Allegiance be mandatory for every student?

You should say it openly, in a strong, even voice, with pride in yourself and pride in accepting any extra work this officious twit sees fit to give you. Make her howl. Let her send you to the guidance counsellor. Demand, as she suggests, a new first period teacher, or ask to opt out entirely and stand outside the classroom until after the business of promising to take care of a garishly-coloured piece of cloth is over and done with.

I spent a year in a Catholic school and worked out a deal to skip the morning Cathechism silliness. If you at least try to come to an amicable solution, you might be able to avoid this woman's punitive nature.

In 1943 the children of Jehovah’s Witnesses refused to participate in a mandatory Pledge of Allegiance in West Virginia public schools, because they believed that saluting the flag was bowing down to a graven image, which was forbidden in Exodus 20:4-5.

West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette

Speaking for the majority of the Court, Justice Robert Jackson said: “We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.”

“Freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order. If there is any fixed star in our constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”

So, recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is voluntary.
Yep--I got to quote that court decision to more than one teacher growing up. I was a Jehovah's Witness until about ten years ago.

Yep--I got to quote that court decision to more than one teacher growing up. I was a Jehovah's Witness until about ten years ago.

Wow. You've certainly changed then. :confused:

The best way to show your allegiance to your country is by learning the language properly, paying tax and vote. That's all. Forcing children to recite some kind of oath is completely unnecessary.

I can actually see no difference right now between the original fascist movment and the US, liberty for all as long as they are nationalists and capitalists, and since Georgie boy started to look for terrorists by expanding the government's power then we might encounter a new Mussolini or Pinochet one day or another...

the whole under god thing is a whole diffenernt matter i won't get into right now


But that's the whole argument. I don't believe that the US is one nation under God, because that's not what this country was founded upon. The US was established under the principle that religion wouldn't be forced on anyone, and making someone worship 1) a flag, and 2) a God that they don't believe in, infringes that right.

1.no i did not read all of this 2.to all 55 (at the time of this post" who said no or dont care all of you can go live in some fu-cking comie country and see how you like it you should be prould to live in a place that you can say the pledge there is this girl in my class who does not say the pledge every day so this is a pet pive of mine and if you dont like what i have to say then frankly you can go fu-ck your selves and i dont care who your are fellow nation or mod included and sense this has most likely came up allredy under god should be left in the pledge cause this nation was founded under him just like the pledge says and as i said above if you dont like then to da-mn bad!

i am going to repost this, since you are too lazy to read everything

Originally Posted by Alpha Sigma Xi
Please read the first amendment to the constitution (this prohibits the government from not only telling you want you absolutely cannot say, but also prohibits the government of telling you what you absolutely have to say also.) If that is communism, then everyone in America is a communist.

Oh yeah, by the way, if you think it is supposed to be an insult to call someone a communist, please get back in your time machine and go back to the 60's or 70's, which ever you came from.

i am going to repost this, since you are too lazy to read everything

Originally Posted by Alpha Sigma Xi
Please read the first amendment to the constitution (this prohibits the government from not only telling you want you absolutely cannot say, but also prohibits the government of telling you what you absolutely have to say also.) If that is communism, then everyone in America is a communist.

Oh yeah, by the way, if you think it is supposed to be an insult to call someone a communist, please get back in your time machine and go back to the 60's or 70's, which ever you came from.
And I shall re-post my comedic reply to that: damn commie pinko

1st of all: The Pledge should not be mandatory because i have the right to remain silent...

2nd of all: You're pledging to a strategically colored piece of nylon, how smart do you feel now

3rd of all: The soldiers didn't die for this country, they died because of it.

4th of all: That whole "under God" argument is completely invalid because it does not, in any way, establish a religion. The Fist amendment was written not so that religion takes no place in government, it's so government can take no place in religion. There is no such thing as 'separation of church and state.' That was something Jefferson made reference to in a letter and is not part of the constitution.
It[separation of C&S] was something almost all of the Founding Fathers were for, but because of the nature of the people they were dealing with explicitly putting it in would have made it impossible to ratify. That and because people would carry such a statement in the constitution to extremes.

1. i dont give a flip about the spelling of "YANKEE" and it would take me about an hour to type out the therey of an "GYROSCOPIC ELECTROMAGNETIC" power generator to an effect that a twit who can not even get the name right, could under stand.
Not really, being as all power generators work in essentially the same fashion. I would assume from the name that some outside force powers the gyroscope, a variety of sources would suffice, and attached to the gyroscope there is at least one, possibly more, magnets. Surrounding the gyroscope would be wire coil, probably copper. The rotation of the magnets would cause the electrons in the copper wire to agitate and electrical current would be produced. This is, of course, extremely simplistic but is a basic type of generator.

Aren't USA-nian children taught the pledge of allegiance before they even know what "pledge" and "allegiance" mean?

Does this seem right to you?

But that's the whole argument. I don't believe that the US is one nation under God, because that's not what this country was founded upon. The US was established under the principle that religion wouldn't be forced on anyone, and making someone worship 1) a flag, and 2) a God that they don't believe in, infringes that right.

That is EXACTLY what the US was founded on -- the right to worship in one's own way. It's also not "flag worship" -- it is showing respect for your nation and its symbols.

That said, I don't think the Pledge should be mandatory. However, the Pledge should be said in class every morning. If you want to say it, fine. But if you don't, you still need to be quiet while eveyone else is.

... at least, that's my $0.02.

No kidding. Like without it all the kids will become communists. Let's all join the 21st century shall we?

Now they'll all become anarchists.

Now they'll all become anarchists.

Let's hope so!

to show that we appreciate our country
i am sure u have head this before but here it goes
Many men have died for your freedom
if you would rather have a king or dictador please be my guest GO to china but a reminder they make you say pledges,bow,read books and basicly worship the ruler (name escapes me)

I think it isn't much to ask people to say the pledge

the whole under god thing is a whole diffenernt matter i won't get into right now

Don't you see, that by forcing people to recite the pledge, that you are then taking one step closer to that ruler-worship you mentioned in China? Things like that aren't going to happen suddenly in this world unless there is some sudden terrible turmoil, things are going to happen bit by bit - and it's important to watch each step and try to halt it.

Now they'll all become anarchists.
I am an antichrist and all that, whatever, like...yah.

American kids couldn't become anarchists because they are so damn apathetic. Much like the Youth in every country in the world.

Oh, I forgot. Don't attack me I'm saying the famed get-out clause phrase: IMHO

there is no where better to live than the US.
The UN Human Development Index would disagree. The USA comes at #8.

Yes, particularly for those who are too young to understand or appreciate the incredible sacrifices necessary to allow them to grow to adulthood free from fear and want. Get out into the real world, mature a bit, then decide if you want to dishonor your own nation.
What'sthe point of patriotism if it's enforced. You can't be a patriotic automaton. You have to feel it.

The UK:
No death penalty
Less violent weather
No flag worshipping
The press show actual news from outside the country or the country's favourite places (Iraq)
Economy hasn't recessed since the Lawson Boom of the early '90s
Govt. not affected as much my multinationals
The UK is just about the worst exemplar country you could have chosen from Western Europe. Any other WE country would fulfil all those criteria better than the UK.

The UK is just about the worst exemplar country you could have chosen from Western Europe. Any other WE country would fulfil all those criteria better than the UK.
OK then: France;
You can't drink the tap water because it is not properly sterilised
You cannot freely express yourself because religious items are banned from schools
Alcoholism is less, but liver disease is one of the greatest in Europe (if not the world) bar scotland because a major custom is to drink wine with every evening meal
Up until recently, every business used to stop at 12 and start again at 2 so everyone could go home for lunch (not all bad, but not good for business)
Illiteracy is higher than in the UK
They almost voted a damn racist into the presidency

Spain takes more money out of the EU than it puts in because of the problem of a low GDP, Germany, eh, that's probably better, some of the other countries in the golden triangle would be better if they were bigger and didn't have such nanny states (brussels, the home of safety warnings).

I would rest my case, but I'm probably wrong on all accounts as you will no doubt prove

...but liver disease is one of the greatest in Europe (if not the world) bar scotland

w007!! Go Scotland!

Leading the world in liver disease and heart attacks, soon to be no1 country for heroin addiction.

Who says I'm not proud of my country?

*munches on deep-fried pizza, drags on ciggarete and cooks up some junk*

West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette



I've mentioned that no less than 4 times .... 4 TIMES .... in this thread. Nobody is paying attention. NS General doesn't want reality, they only want hypothetics.

i didnt read this thread through so i hope im not saying stuff that has been said too many times already......


i do NOT understand the point of saying the pledge of allegiance every damn day in school. what? does it WEAR OFF??? on monday morning am i 3 times as likley to have turned unamerican because i didnt say it over the weekend? what about over the summer? do all our children come into school every september utter communists who have to be reprogrammed by the pledge?

is it like taking the pledge of abstinence from alcohol by a chronic alcoholic who keeps falling off the wagon and needs to pledge all over again? what is the POINT of day after day pledging allegiance not to my country but to a FLAG?

i have no problem with school children learning the pledge of allegiance. its fine to learn it along with the national anthem, the pre-amble to the constituion, the gettysburg address, the names of the presidents, the state capitols, whatever. but i see no sense in forcing school children to recite the same oath over and over again. ONCE is enough. and what good is a pledge that is mandatory anyway? a pledge that is not freely given is no pledge at all.

i hate it when adults make kids do stupid things just because it makes the adults feel better. mandatory schooling should not involve mandatory loyatly oaths.

thankyou. very. much. repeat it every day = kids hating it