NationStates Jolt Archive

- Discuss.

What brainwashing are you referring to?

Definitely. Start off with the good ol' reason why Republicans are fascists, then move on to the next era why conservatives are fascists, and then we have the perfect open-minded class! :)

I think you need to tell us what you mean, cause right now I don't.

I thought it already was.

Yup already an integral part with how history is recorded “by the winners” comes built right in

Obviously. How else can we get people to swallow that tripe that they pass off as history?

I believe he is talking about the winner makes the rules mentality in history, and the intense patriotism we ingrain into our students at an early age.

I personally believe it is a bad idea, to paraphrase, a nation who doesn't learn true history is doomed to repeat it. If a whole nation doesn't learn from the mistakes of its past, how does it avoid repeating them.

With that said, a majority of voters were alive during the Vietnam War, yet they allowed another war based on the same flawed logic of prevention.

Obviously. How else can we get people to swallow that tripe that they pass off as history?

Just have faith in the over-all stupidity of mankind, of course.

I believe he is talking about the winner makes the rules mentality in history, and the intense patriotism we ingrain into our students at an early age.

I personally believe it is a bad idea, to paraphrase, a nation who doesn't learn true history is doomed to repeat it. If a whole nation doesn't learn from the mistakes of its past, how does it avoid repeating them.

With that said, a majority of voters were alive during the Vietnam War, yet they allowed another war based on the same flawed logic of prevention.


Yeah but you are narrowing it down to just the US … world history as a whole is a bunch of fluff

Ridiculous

And almost always romanticized


Almost always modified to cast a certain group in a certain light

Rediculous

Should the brainwashing in History lessons be compulsory? - Discuss.

How do you know you haven't been brainwashed into believing you've been brainwashed in history class?

Yeah but you are narrowing it down to just the US … world history as a whole is a bunch of fluff

Ridiculous

And almost always romanticized


Almost always modified to cast a certain group in a certain light

Rediculous
Ooh, generalizations. Yay!
I know that when I was in high-school, we spent a lot of time looking for the bias in history books, and were constantly reminded the best type of research includes looking through a variety of texts and always keeping an eye out for that "casting a certain group in a certain light." Then you try to draw your own conclusions. It's fun.
Romanticized, you say? Give us an example.

How do you know you haven't been brainwashed into believing you've been brainwashed in history class?
Silly question. You've just been brainwashed into thinking like that. ;)

What "brainwashing?"

Yeah but you are narrowing it down to just the US … world history as a whole is a bunch of fluff

Ridiculous

And almost always romanticized


Almost always modified to cast a certain group in a certain light

Rediculous

Being from America, it is the only history I have been exposed to. It is also the nation I would most like to see change.

Ooh, generalizations. Yay!
I know that when I was in high-school, we spent a lot of time looking for the bias in history books, and were constantly reminded the best type of research includes looking through a variety of texts and always keeping an eye out for that "casting a certain group in a certain light." Then you try to draw your own conclusions. It's fun.
Romanticized, you say? Give us an example.


Didn’t say history classes

Said history(sometimes both … hard to downplay personal bias), I am glad your teacher went through and had you practice critical thinking, obviously they understood like I said that history is almost always biased (and more so within a specific publication)

As for historical romanticism it can be viewed in the little things … everything from the appearance of Lincoln as a statuesque president to even more recent presentation of things like 9/11 (things such as overplaying individual acts and overplaying emotionally loaded content and downplaying fact) it is a hard thing to grasp when it is mostly truth but it gets exaggerated and gives a biased point of view

I am not going to dig for any deep examples right now (class in 5 min)

Ill argue later :-D

Being from America, it is the only history I have been exposed to. It is also the nation I would most like to see change.


Agreed ... I am the same way … I don’t have the time to study computers and history :-D I would love to learn more about world history though

They say that a nation without a history is a nation without future. And what kind of a future should we expect if the history we learn is "tweaked?"

Didn’t say history classes

Said history(sometimes both … hard to downplay personal bias).
Okay. See, that threw me off because the thread is about history lessons. Most sources are definately biased, however subtlely. Can't argue there. As for the romaniticizing, that's sure to be present in a lot of things but I can't imagine there's much romance in, say, the great famine in Ireland and the Irish people's subsequent suffering, capped off by immigrations to North America where in Canada, Grosse Isle was less a gateway to the new world for many than it was their final destination. Disease is a bitch. Can't see too much romance in the trench warfare of WW1, either.
Hell, we don't even have romantic national leaders anymore. Most Canadians will tell you that Sir John A. Macdonald was a drunk. Trudeau still gets some praises, but thats mostly from the after-affects of Trudeaumania (I'm not a big fan of him). It's like how Cherynobell is still too dangerous to live in. Eventually it'll wear off, though. I mean, we had a popular book in Canada a year or two ago all about how Billy Bishop (WW1's greatest Canadian ace: like our very own Red Baron) was a fraud.

mayb its cos im not from da US but i havent been brainwashed in my history lessons in Aust. its the science that does the brainwashing with evolution n stuff...

Jesus was English.

According to William Blake.

I know some people who actually believe that 'evil' things should not be taught in History classes. basically omit that America owned slaves, that the holocaust ever exsisted during WW2. etc.. their reasoning... by teaching these things, it helps perpetuate the horror and victimize the people.

BTW, I'm not one of these people.

What brainwashing are you referring to?

Us History text books are full of the glory of the white mans' successes. But, do not mention to brutality by which they achieved it. I suggest you watch "Hidalgo" the movie. It is a truthful portrayal of American history though only a minor blink of one event out of so many.

I only refer to the US because that is where I originate from however my ancestors originated from North America. [US before it was colonized.] I am native american. I am intrigued to hear about other countries experience with their history lessons as well.

Okay. See, that threw me off because the thread is about history lessons. Most sources are definately biased, however subtlely. Can't argue there. As for the romaniticizing, that's sure to be present in a lot of things but I can't imagine there's much romance in, say, the great famine in Ireland and the Irish people's subsequent suffering, capped off by immigrations to North America where in Canada, Grosse Isle was less a gateway to the new world for many than it was their final destination. Disease is a bitch. Can't see too much romance in the trench warfare of WW1, either.
Hell, we don't even have romantic national leaders anymore. Most Canadians will tell you that Sir John A. Macdonald was a drunk. Trudeau still gets some praises, but thats mostly from the after-affects of Trudeaumania (I'm not a big fan of him). It's like how Cherynobell is still too dangerous to live in. Eventually it'll wear off, though. I mean, we had a popular book in Canada a year or two ago all about how Billy Bishop (WW1's greatest Canadian ace: like our very own Red Baron) was a fraud.

No there are some things

That are not in themselves romantic but it doesn’t stop “romanticizing” the people and the actions and the motivations there … things like making the reasons … actions … perceived thoughts more noble then they actually are

Some of us see through it but there is a tendency for things like turning these peoples into angles … pure motivations sort of things. All part of romanticizing the time …

And current events … we see the laws in our leaders right now … but in a hundred years if they do something big … lets say the economy turns around in the US … we win the war and things actually get fixed (I know unlikely but lets just put it forward as such)
In a hundred years who knows how they will see GW … maybe he will be a romanticized figure … no one will remember the flaws (massive as they are) I mean look at what happened to all the flaws in the past leaders

I know some people recall them … and they are recorded … but by in large they were turned into these heroic figures where everything else is whipped away


This is one of the built in bias of history and how people perceive it

Jesus was English.

According to William Blake.

I was surprised by that yeah.
"The poem was inspired by the old legend that Jesus, whilst still a young man, accompanied Joseph of Arimathea to Glastonbury via the nearby Roman port. Blake's biographers tell us that he believed in this legend." - wiki article: and did those feet in ancient time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time)
I originally thought he was simply implying that it wasn't here, so we had to build it. Symoblically, obviously:|.

It's sad but true that "history" is always written by the winner. Nowdays we can see it in action, compare occupied France during WW2 and occipied Iraq today. What difference is there between a "freedom Fighter" and "Terrorist"
or compare Resistance to Insurgency.

Us History text books are full of the glory of the white mans' successes. But, do not mention to brutality by which they achieved it. I suggest you watch "Hidalgo" the movie. It is a truthful portrayal of American history though only a minor blink of one event out of so many.
Oh get off your high horse. No nation has ever come to power through playing nice. The English didn't build their empire through serving tea and crumpets to the natives they smashed, they destroyed their cultures, and forced them to accept English values. The Romans didn't build their empire by offering to build free forums, they built it through total war. The Russians didn't expand their empire through giving out free borsche, they expanded through brutal military force.

Hidalgo showed nothing people didn't already know. Oh my, the Americans forced the native americans out of their lands through brutal military actions combined with duplicitious treaties. Whats your point? Otto von Bismarck created modern Germany through much the same means, except he was doing it with other advanced states, instead of ones that were primitive technologically.

White man's successes....pah! The victors write history, and so they should, because they won. What people so often take for granted is, that for everything thing that is harped on as being terrible, they leave out the truly terrible alternative. For instance, the Native Americans. They still have reservations, their own quasi-national status, culture, etc. What other nation can you name that has conquered a series of peoples within its present national borders, and has willingly granted them this autonomy? Do the Welsh have it? No. Do the Chechnyans have it? No. They are both part of their respective nations, despite wishes to the country they might have. The Native Americans are free within their own terrority, territory the US was under no need to give to them.

Honestly, get off your high horse, and realize history isn't the ideal world your naive brain wants it to me. Greet reality bucko.

My history teacher actually refuses to brainwash me . . . he provides a TON of notes by his own research that contradict or elaborate on the stupidly PC textbook of mine

Whether or not the person wants to be brainwashed should determine if it is OK to perform.

History teaching is somewhat similar to brainwashing, but we know the winners are the ones who write history.

Children need to learn - some might consider that brainwashing.

Of course, if I had a servant - I would absolutely practice brainwashing to keep them in line and maintain their desire to serve me only.

Slender Goddess

My history teacher actually refuses to brainwash me . . . he provides a TON of notes by his own research that contradict or elaborate on the stupidly PC textbook of mine

Lol sounds like a good teacher

But you have to keep in mind that his opinion is in fact biased itself and that the book may have some (if few) very good points in it.


All we can do is try to reduce bias … can not completely eliminate it
Even a good teacher

Lol sounds like a good teacher

But you have to keep in mind that his opinion is in fact biased itself and that the book may have some (if few) very good points in it.


All we can do is try to reduce bias … can not completely eliminate it
Even a good teacher
If its a very political correct book (that was their point) than the notes would likely just be facts to show the political correctness as falacious. I myself cannot stand all the new history textbooks (post ~95') because of their massive degree of PC. Nothing can offend anyone, next thing you know they will be saying that "World War Two was started by an tiny minority of somewhat disgruntled persons whose personal beliefs included dislike of certain other types of persons" or some other such trash.

If its a very political correct book (that was their point) than the notes would likely just be facts to show the political correctness as falacious. I myself cannot stand all the new history textbooks (post ~95') because of their massive degree of PC. Nothing can offend anyone, next thing you know they will be saying that "World War Two was started by an tiny minority of somewhat disgruntled persons whose personal beliefs included dislike of certain other types of persons" or some other such trash.


Ohhh I happen to agree it is hard to tell the truth (specially motivations) of people when still being pc … specially because people are not naturally pc

Ahh, I love it when people take my joke threads seriously. :D

Ahh, I love it when people take my joke threads seriously. :D
lol XD

History is written by the winners/ more literate drawing side. This is why the enemy are always rapists and our brave boys have nice shiny armour. In reality there was a lot of pillaging and rust on both sides of each war.

my history teacher last year told us about the whole brainwashing thing. I found it kind of funny. The chapters in our book that told of things in American history that weren't so nice were the shortest. They're just trying to make us think that our country is the greatest, but it is really just all bullshit. America is a country built by rebels.

Us History text books are full of the glory of the white mans' successes. But, do not mention to brutality by which they achieved it. I suggest you watch "Hidalgo" the movie. It is a truthful portrayal of American history though only a minor blink of one event out of so many.really, I've never had that text book. I've learned about segregation, slavery, and the persicution of others including the American Indian. i've also learned about the heroism of the people living though those times. You should take that Text book to your board of education.

I remember my American History class in high school...I learned that Teddy Roosevelt was a liar, the American Indians were all holding hands and singing together before we came over and brutally hacked them up...and how the Japanese were just minding their own business when we suddenly dropped the a-bomb on them...etc

really, I've never had that text book. I've learned about segregation, slavery, and the persicution of others including the American Indian. i've also learned about the heroism of the people living though those times. You should take that Text book to your board of education.

Perhaps it was the teacher rather then the text. Unfortunately, he didn't teach any of that in his class. He was more geared towards manifest destiny.

Oh get off your high horse. No nation has ever come to power through playing nice. The English didn't build their empire through serving tea and crumpets to the natives they smashed, they destroyed their cultures, and forced them to accept English values. The Romans didn't build their empire by offering to build free forums, they built it through total war. The Russians didn't expand their empire through giving out free borsche, they expanded through brutal military force.

Hidalgo showed nothing people didn't already know. Oh my, the Americans forced the native americans out of their lands through brutal military actions combined with duplicitious treaties. Whats your point? Otto von Bismarck created modern Germany through much the same means, except he was doing it with other advanced states, instead of ones that were primitive technologically.

White man's successes....pah! The victors write history, and so they should, because they won. What people so often take for granted is, that for everything thing that is harped on as being terrible, they leave out the truly terrible alternative. For instance, the Native Americans. They still have reservations, their own quasi-national status, culture, etc. What other nation can you name that has conquered a series of peoples within its present national borders, and has willingly granted them this autonomy? Do the Welsh have it? No. Do the Chechnyans have it? No. They are both part of their respective nations, despite wishes to the country they might have. The Native Americans are free within their own terrority, territory the US was under no need to give to them.

Honestly, get off your high horse, and realize history isn't the ideal world your naive brain wants it to me. Greet reality bucko.

I never spoke of my ideals. I'm not on a high horse. I also never stated anything about the treatment of natives now adays. Its amazing how a few short words about the text I read, or acutally lessons taught by a fat, ignorant man in 11th grade could spark such passion in you. The discussion was what was taught not how things actually happened. Maybe you should become a history teacher. You seem to be passionate and intelligent enough. Thank you for your views and way of thinking. Its always good to read one's perspective. Fortunately, that US History teacher gave me a pining to read on history and learn the real facts as some others have not. Oh also, I'm not a bucko.

You mistook the experience I went through with my history lessons for how I actually think now adays. The past is the past and struggle for survival of the fittest and mightiest will always reign. I work for a tribe, a casino. You are right they are given the world and treated more fairly because of their sovereignty. I can also say that its an abused system and unappreciated. They have been conditioned to think the world is owed to them and have a backwoods rational. The nepotism and greed sickens me. There are of course good, purely spiritual tribal members that inspire me but for the most part they eat up their resources and money like a snake eating its own tail and pushed themselves away from technology, expansion and innovation out of hatred for the white man that has hurt them in the long run. However, I speak of one tribe. Others such as in California and larger states are quite powerful and business savvy. This is a smaller tribe that I witness on a daily basis. Some have great intentions but are brought down by the rest of their members.

I've been outside in the world where alot of them have not and I can say that the way of thinking is about thirty years behind. I was trained in the business world and its almost a conflict between my real ideals and they ones they have. But, my main goal is to buy a house, make my car payment and have a little fun. Not many do like their bosses so that is the reality I greet on a daily basis.

I remember my American History class in high school...I learned that Teddy Roosevelt was a liar, the American Indians were all holding hands and singing together before we came over and brutally hacked them up...and how the Japanese were just minding their own business when we suddenly dropped the a-bomb on them...etc

Same here.

I know some people who actually believe that 'evil' things should not be taught in History classes. basically omit that America owned slaves, that the holocaust ever exsisted during WW2. etc.. their reasoning... by teaching these things, it helps perpetuate the horror and victimize the people.

BTW, I'm not one of these people.


Peter: You know that whole Vietnam thing? Never happened.
Brian: Oh yeah, but don't mention it around the Veterans Hospital. Those guys are really committed to the lie.

German Tour Guide: You vill find more on Germany's contributions to ze arts in ze pamphlets ve have provided.
Brian Griffin: Yeah, about your pamphlet... uh, I'm not seeing anything about German history between 1939 and 1945. There's just a big gap.
Tour guide: Everyone vas on vacation. On your left is Munich's first city hall, erected in 15...


heh heh...

Edit - rest of the quote:


Brian Griffin:Wait, what are you talking about? Germany invaded Poland in 1939 and...
Tour Guide: We were invited. Punch vas served. Check vit Poland.
Brian Griffin: You can't just ignore those years. Thomas Mann fled to America because of Nazism's stranglehold on Germany.
Tour guide: Nope, nope. He left to manage a Dairy Queen.
Brian Griffin: A Dairy Queen? That's preposterous.
Tour guide: I vill hear no more insinuations about the German people. Nothing bad happened. Sie werden sich hinsetzen. Sie werden ruhig sein. Sie werden nicht beleidigen Deutschland.
[throws his hand up in a Hitler salute]
Brian Griffin: ...uh, is that a beer hall?
Tour guide: Oh yes, Munich is renowned for its historic beer halls.

Perhaps it was the teacher rather then the text. Unfortunately, he didn't teach any of that in his class. He was more geared towards manifest destiny.To quote Andromeda "those who fail to learn History are doomed to repeat it... Those who fail to learn History Properly, are just Doomed"

To quote Andromeda "those who fail to learn History are doomed to repeat it... Those who fail to learn History Properly, are just Doomed"


And some fat history teacher don't repeat it correctly. Luckily, I read up on what he failed to provide. :D