NationStates Jolt Archive

I figure I can't wait for his body to be cold because he's by the med, so the chances of that ever happening are zero. I gave him 24 hours, so here it is.

Arafat is a terrorist, murderer and a thief.

Thief: He stole humanitarian aid money and gave it to arm Hamas, Al Fatah and other terror groups. He also gave millions to his wife.

Terrorist: He is the founder of Al-Fatah and PLO, and also donates tonnes of humanitarian aid cash to them. They are both groups responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews, guilty of going to the shops, eating out, and other acts of such evil.

Murderer: See above.

So, post your views, be they anti or pro-Arafat. Maybe, finally, people will be allowed to hear both sides of the story, as opposed to only the comments about how great he was.

There's not much to say about him, without me flaming about him. He was a terrorist and terrorist supporter. It is because of him that the Palestinians live in squalor, and Israeli's live in fear. It is because of him that the Palestinian Controlled areas have been occupied for so long....

Let him be hatefully forgotten.

I figure I can't wait for his body to be cold because he's by the med, so the chances of that ever happening are zero. I gave him 24 hours, so here it is.

Arafat is a terrorist, murderer and a thief.

Thief: He stole humanitarian aid money and gave it to arm Hamas, Al Fatah and other terror groups. He also gave millions to his wife.

Terrorist: He is the founder of Al-Fatah and PLO, and also donates tonnes of humanitarian aid cash to them. They are both groups responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews, guilty of going to the shops, eating out, and other acts of such evil.

Murderer: See above.

So, post your views, be they anti or pro-Arafat. Maybe, finally, people will be allowed to hear both sides of the story, as opposed to only the comments about how great he was.

I don't like him as much as the next guy but I can't let you lie.

He doesn't deserve your lies. Stop covering him up with lies. The truth is comdemning enough.

He did not steal if it was given to him. He did however, reallocate the funds to bad causes.

I agree with terror funding. If by US defination that makes him a terrorist then yes he would be a terrorist ie Patriot Act says that is defination.

He didn't personally command them to do vile acts. Neither did he personally murder anyone. So I can't allow that word. But I understand the sentiment.

He had many chances to save ghis people from war and bloodshed. He tossed these aside because it wasn't "enough" land.
He had chances to make a Palestinian state but he chose not to take it.

Not saying that Isreal guy Sharon is better but at least he gave it a chance for peace.

I can only hope Arafat's successor is more moderate.

I must be reading American views here.

No arguement regarding him beinmg a terrorist who has sold his people short, but to clain he is responsible for the Palestinians living in poverty is laughable.

Isreal places them in an area unable to support a nation state.
Israel biulds a wall cutting villages off from their lands and surrounds towns.

It is not a simple problem, which is probably why Bush cant solve it

He wasn't given it. He didn't need the money, it was given to the palestinian people, to enable them to live a better life. He took advantage of it and stole the money.
Don't you see how beautifully it worked out for him? The people remained oppressed, he pinned the blame on the Israelis and people lined up to kill them. The money meanwhile went to buy more explosives to enable more palestinians to blow themselves up. Its a circle, and one that went so well for him.

The way I see it the leaders of Israel and Palestine are as bad as each other.
One funds suicide bombers to kill innocent people and the other bombs innocent people (yep, I accept that they also get terrorists but colateral damage is not a good thing). A phosphur bomb is a truely horrible thing to drop on a populated area. They are both evil in my eyes but hey, that is my opinion, I am sure it will differ to most others.

I must be reading American views here.

Actually i'm Canadian

No arguement regarding him beinmg a terrorist who has sold his people short, but to clain he is responsible for the Palestinians living in poverty is laughable.

Let's see, Israel, US and UN all donate money to the PLO to help build a decent living enviroment... this has been happening for the past 50 years now... shouldnt there have been some signs of improvement by now? Or is there, but the media is just showing the poor areas.

Isreal places them in an area unable to support a nation state.
Israel biulds a wall cutting villages off from their lands and surrounds towns.

Israel didn't place them there... they placed themselves there, with the help of the UN and UK, remember the British Mandate? Technically Jordan was supposed to be Palestine....

It is not a simple problem, which is probably why Bush cant solve it

Can't help a nation who's leaders would rather spend it on weapons, then on food and schools.

That collateral you mentioned. Lets take the example of Sheikh Yassin. 2 people were killed with him. They weren't civilians as you were lead to believe, they were probably his bodyguards. If you work for a terrorist, that'll be your end, and a well deserved one too.

The way I see it the leaders of Israel and Palestine are as bad as each other.
One funds suicide bombers to kill innocent people and the other bombs innocent people (yep, I accept that they also get terrorists but colateral damage is not a good thing). A phosphur bomb is a truely horrible thing to drop on a populated area. They are both evil in my eyes but hey, that is my opinion, I am sure it will differ to most others.

Israel bombs the terrorists, unfortuantly you forget that terrorists hide among civilians. Israel does the best it can to not kill them. If israel did not care for the civilians at all, the rate of death would be much, much higher.

That is one example sanct, I am sure there are others where there HAVE been innocents killed, not saying that the Palestinians are any better but each are responsible for a horrendous death toll of innocent people just wanting to live their lives in peace

He did not steal if it was given to him. He did however, reallocate the funds to bad causes.
I'm not too familiar with the issue and I don't have strong opinions on it, so I think I can be considered a neutral observer.

As a neutral observer (and speaking as a Player, not a Moderator), this is merely semantics; this depends upon how you define "stealing". I would call it "embezzlement", which Merriam-Webstar OnLine (http://www.m-w.com) defines as "to appropriate (as property entrusted to one's care) fraudulently to one's own use".

If you're given money and you are trusted to do something with that money... and you go and do something else with that money that you're not supposed to... then that's "embezzlement". Is "embezzlement" also stealing? I think it is.

Just a note regarding definitions and semantics. Carry on.

Oh, one other thing: I'd like to unofficially encourage people to link to sources of information when making assertions-of-fact. Thank you.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Maybe, finally, people will be allowed to hear both sides of the story, as opposed to only the comments about how great he was.

Except no-one got to hear any side of the story 'cause you kept getting the threads shut down yesterday.

Yay, another great day to be Sanctaphrax...and another day having to put up with his flamebait. Yippee.

That is one example sanct, I am sure there are others where there HAVE been innocents killed, not saying that the Palestinians are any better but each are responsible for a horrendous death toll of innocent people just wanting to live their lives in peace

Except that Israel does it to protect it's people,the Palestinians do it, to inflict harm and punishment.

MuhOre

I suppose that is why that 12 (think she was 12) year old palestinian schoolgirl was shot to pieces and then the brave soldier who did it pumped many more rounds into her at close range whilst stood over her.

A thoroughly regretable incident but not the only one I am sure.

That collateral you mentioned. Lets take the example of Sheikh Yassin. 2 people were killed with him. They weren't civilians as you were lead to believe, they were probably his bodyguards. If you work for a terrorist, that'll be your end, and a well deserved one too.
You can't justyify killing people because of that they "probably" are or have "probably" done, and even if they did work for him that hardly justifies killing them either.

Edit: killing *them*, not *him*, sorry.

Except no-one got to hear any side of the story 'cause you kept getting the threads shut down yesterday.

Yay, another great day to be Sanctaphrax...and another day having to put up with his flamebait. Yippee.
uh huh. You know why? Because my side is anti-Arafat, and I was meant to show the terrorist some respect. I refused to. Its called standing up for your beliefs.
Your saying that i'm flamebaiting, is in itself flamebaiting because you're trying to provoke a response.

Yeah he was a terrorist, but Ariel Sharon is a BUTCHER both sides commit acts of terror on a daily basis.

MuhOre

I suppose that is why that 12 (think she was 12) year old palestinian schoolgirl was shot to pieces and then the brave soldier who did it pumped many more rounds into her at close range whilst stood over her.

A thoroughly regretable incident but not the only one I am sure.

1. She was getting too close to the soldiers, when asked to back away.
2. It was a stupid thing to do for that soldier to "confirm kill", but at least the IDF apologized and punished the soldier.

You can't justyify killing people because of that they "probably" are or have "probably" done, and even if they did work for him that hardly justifies killing them either.
If they are innocents, then they don't deserve to die. If they're bodyguards for a terrorist, good riddance.

Yeah he was a terrorist, but Ariel Sharon is a BUTCHER both sides commit acts of terror on a daily basis.

Acts of terror?! The soldiers are there to protect the Israeli Citizens, they are not there for their own enjoyment!

Yeah he was a terrorist, but Ariel Sharon is a BUTCHER both sides commit acts of terror on a daily basis.
A butcher? The guy who sells meat for a living? Nah, he's the PM of Israel;)

The Republic of Neo Alansyism
Received: 2 hours ago Alright, but my friend's land has been taken, you've bombed Palistinian civilians, you've created aperthedid.
And you're a jew. And you'll always stick up for your fellow Jews, no matter how henious their crimes.
Move back Isarel!

this is arafats message, delivered by The Republic of Neo Alansyism! lets do somthing about it!!!!


pissed of about nazis and antisemites,
Survo

And the settlements proposed by Israel while from the outside looked good did not allow for the millions of Palestinians exiled by Israel to return. This is why the settlements have failed because unsuprisingly the Palestinians will not accept a settlement that forbids their people to return.

The soldier, I seem to remember his rank was captain was taken to tried for it and found innocent.

yes, she should not have been there but to shoot her and then stand over her and empty his clip into her body and head is not the act of a decent human being. He is an animal and should have been jailed for his crime

The soldier, I seem to remember his rank was captain was taken to tried for it and found innocent.

yes, she should not have been there but to shoot her and then stand over her and empty his clip into her body and head is not the act of a decent human being. He is an animal and should have been jailed for his crime

Link for proof.

You get lunatics in every nation. The problem is Israel has compulsary army service, so they all pass through the army.

Acts of terror?! The soldiers are there to protect the Israeli Citizens, they are not there for their own enjoyment!

Hmmm what about the Appache gunships blowing up housing blocks? Or the amry bulldozers demolishing houses?

The way the Israelies treat their neighbours disgusts me. Of all the people on this Earth, the Jews should know what its like to be persecuted, isolated and denied the right to live in your own country.

And dont come back at me with the 'their terrorists' argument, I dont condone suicide bombings for one minute. But you must recognise that Israel are as responsible for what goes on as the Palestinians are.

Guys, please remember that this isn't are Israel right or wrong but is Arafat a terrorist or not. This is for your feelings towards Arafat. Not Israel. Thanks.

i think he is/was just cotinuing a precedent started by Israelities look into Bombing of Davids Hotel

Isreal places them in an area unable to support a nation state.
Israel biulds a wall cutting villages off from their lands and surrounds towns.

Israel has no choice!

i think he was just continuing a precedent started by Israelis look into Bombing of Davids Hotel
I assume you mean the King David hotel. And what connection does that have to Arafat?

Hmmm what about the Appache gunships blowing up housing blocks? Or the amry bulldozers demolishing houses?

Yeah how dare the Israelis use rockets to blow up ammunition factories, blow up cars that are holding terrorists, and blow up Training Camps! They should be directed at the civilians! Never mind the fact, that is Israeli Law to bulldoze a terrorist house, to make sure no more activies go there.

The way the Israelies treat their neighbours disgusts me. Of all the people on this Earth, the Jews should know what its like to be perscuted, isolated and denied the right to live in your own country.

I totally agree! So when are the arabs going to stop trying to kill us again? Or is that their way of saying hello.

And dont come back at me with the 'their terrorists' argument, I dont condone suicide bombings for one minute. But you must recognise that Israel are as responsible for what goes on as the Palestinians are.

No...Israel isn't responsible. Arafat was responsible.. Hamas is responsible... the terrorists are responsibile for their living conditions.

Guys, please remember that this isn't are Israel right or wrong but is Arafat a terrorist or not. This is for your feelings towards Arafat. Not Israel. Thanks.

You cannot comment on Arafat without examining the reasons and motivations for his cause, which funnily enough include Israel.

Yes, please provide a link for proof.

I do not know the full extent of everything happening in Israel. However, it is a nation that continually suffers terrorist attacks, and they have to decide what to do about it. If they just sit there and take all of it without retaliation, then they will be pushed over. I do not believe anybody here appreciates being pushed over.

So, Israel retaliates.

Burnsie, it was merely a reminder to stay on topic. A soldier shooting a 12 year old girl has no connection to Arafat.

Of all the people on this Earth, the Jews should know what its like to be persecuted, isolated and denied the right to live in your own country.

Number of Palestinians killed by Israeli troops: 2800
Number of Jews killed by Hitler:6000000
Besides, it's not like it's out of pure hatred, it's because of Israel laid down their arms, there would BE no Israel

Yeah how dare the Israelis use rockets to blow up ammunition factories, blow up cars that are holding terrorists, and blow up Training Camps! They should be directed at the civilians! Never mind the fact, that is Israeli Law to bulldoze a terrorist house, to make sure no more activies go there.



I totally agree! So when are the arabs going to stop trying to kill us again? Or is that their way of saying hello.



No...Israel isn't responsible. Arafat was responsible.. Hamas is responsible... the terrorists are responsibile for their living conditions.

Ah so your saying every house destroyed and every person killed is a terrorist? I think not. Our media coverage is not biased for either side. I condem the actions of both sides. How can you expect the Palestinians to disarm with the threat of Israelie military strikes hanging over them? Likewise Israel wont stop till they do. Thus untill one side decides to be the bigger man this will go on forever. The Palestinians have as much claim to the land as Israel does, they will not give up.

I'd be happy to give the Palestinians a state if they would stop exploding our buses!

Arafat the Nobel Peace Prize winner.

I'd be happy to give the Palestinians a state if they would stop exploding our buses!
That dosen't mean they'd accept the state, even if you do offer them 99% of what they want.

Ah so your saying every house destroyed and every person killed is a terrorist? I think not. Our media coverage is not biased for either side. I condem the actions of both sides. How can you expect the Palestinians to disarm with the threat of Israelie military strikes hanging over them? Likewise Israel wont stop till they do. Thus untill one side decides to be the bigger man this will go on forever. The Palestinians have as much claim to the land as Israel does, they will not give up.

Actually...yes all the houses are terrorists. They are either homes to terrorists or the extremely rare illegal housing.

How can you expect the peaceful Israelis to disarm, when all their neighbours want to kill them.

Yup so much claim, that Egypt and Jordan decided to take their land after the war if Independence. Some neighbours they are...

Let's not forget that Arafat walked away from a peace deal that would have seen the state of Palestine created with, what, 97% of the West Bank and Gaza, and he walked away in 2000.

The wall didn't exist then and Sharon wasn't Prime Minister, so bringing them up is completely irrelevant.

The simple fact is, he was given a chance for peace, he decided he couldn't face his people after declaring Nasser a traitor for signing peace with Israel and then signing this document, so he ordered his people to take up arms and start shooting. He's a terrorist. Regardless of Israels faults, and it does take two to tango, but someone has to initiate the dance and this most recent of deadly dances was initiated by Arafat after he dismissed a good and solid chance for peace.

(I'm also Canadian and atheist, so no more of this ridiculous "you must be American" and/or "a christian fascist". Sensible people all over the world will be silently rejoicing in Arafat's death and the prospect of real peace coming to the Middle East.)

How can you expect the Palestinians to disarm with the threat of Israelie military strikes hanging over them?.
Israel went through a period where they didn't retaliate, and didn't attack in order for Hamas and co to disarm and come and talk. Hamas launched a wave of suicide bombings. Israel gave up eventually. Face it, Hamas don't want peace.

And that reminds me on 60 minutes there was an article on Scientist that told the world of Nuke programme.Asked a Isreali official about nukes and he said something like weve earned them(or something)
Reply from reporter was so your saying because of the holocoust youre allowed them.
reply guy started to say yes then stopped and finnished interview

Give back Palestine
Arafat tried and still they denied him

also tv programme onU.S. survailence ship that was hit by Israeli forces in 6day war said Israel attacked Golan heights during cease fire(BAD) while another(COMMAND DECISIONS)said they attacked while negotiating a cease fire slight difference which ones lying?

That dosen't mean they'd accept the state, even if you do offer them 99% of what they want.

Of course, it has to be 100% or nothing. although 99.999999999% and a blood sacrifice every day, might make them happy too.

Sir, your link

Paestininan girl shot at close range (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3733638.stm)

Thus untill one side decides to be the bigger man this will go on forever.Israel has made SEVERAL sincere efforts to make peace beginning with Rabin in 1993 and continuing on through 2000 with Ehud Barak. Barak offered Arafat 97% of the West Bank, yet he refused and started the Intifada a month later

Number of Palestinians killed by Israeli troops: 2800
Number of Jews killed by Hitler:6000000
Besides, it's not like it's out of pure hatred, it's because of Israel laid down their arms, there would BE no Israel

Im not suggesting its EXACTLY the same, but comparisons can be drawn. There is also over 4 million Palestinians who were exiled by Israel in the 60's when Israel attacked the then Palestinian state and tried to drive them out.
Incidently there are numerous UN resolutions calling for Israel to return to the original borders that have been passed by everyone but the US...

Israel has made SEVERAL sincere efforts to make peace beginning with Rabin in 1993 and continuing on through 2000 with Ehud Barak. Barak offered Arafat 97% of the West Bank, yet he refused and started the Intifada a month later

Yes but as I said earlier it offered no chance for those in exile to return.

Your saying that i'm flamebaiting, is in itself flamebaiting because you're trying to provoke a response.

Actually I do find this thread a bit flamebaity too. However, you have given it 24 hours and his funeral is over.

However, keep it in check. No flaming, no flamebait and no trolling.

Thank You,
Stephanie
Game Moderator

(I'm also Canadian and atheist, so no more of this ridiculous "you must be American" and/or "a christian fascist". Sensible people all over the world will be silently rejoicing in Arafat's death and the prospect of real peace coming to the Middle East.)
But people can still critise you for being Canadian and Atheist no win situation ;)

Let's not forget that Arafat walked away from a peace deal that would have seen the state of Palestine created with, what, 97% of the West Bank and Gaza, and he walked away in 2000.


Stop bringing that up. Just stop bringing that up. You deal with that "peace deal" in a bigoted fashion. Just stop.

You fail to mention that the 3% not covered by that "deal" was Jerusalem. There can not be a Palestinian state without Jerusalem.


As for you guys, you demand proof and links, when you fail to provide proof and links. All what you said is propaganda, pure and simple. Propaganda. Lies. Unfounded accusations. Unless you provide proof that is. Unbiased proof. Which you can not.

And that reminds me on 60 minutes there was an article on Scientist that told the world of Nuke programme.Asked a Isreali official about nukes and he said something like weve earned them(or something)
Reply from reporter was so your saying because of the holocoust youre allowed them.
reply guy started to say yes then stopped and finnished interview

Give back Palestine
Arafat tried and still they denied him

also tv programme onU.S. survailence ship that was hit by Israeli forces in 6day war said Israel attacked Golan heights during cease fire(BAD) while another(COMMAND DECISIONS)said they attacked while negotiating a cease fire slight difference which ones lying?

1. nukes are our last resort to protecting ourselves, much like American from fear of Soviet Invasion during the Cold War.

2. No... Israel tried, but Arafat denied them.

3. yes the liberty incident, Israel claims it was a misunderstanding, it might be true, but we might never know.

The Israeli-Palestinian situation cannot be looked in the humanitarian way that we judge our own government. These two peoples are fighting for their soverignty, fighting for existence as nations. We all deplore the killing of innocent civilians, but in the eyes of the Israeli or Palestinian people, the ends justify the means. During World War II the United States and Great Britain bombed every major city in Germany killing thousands upon thousands of civilians. But I think most of us would agree that the ends justified the means. Now, I'm not saying that either Palestine or Israel is analogous to Hitler's Germany but these two societies are at war with each other. The Palestinians cannot fight Israel with conventional weapons so they use suicide bombers and such. Israel uses its military and economic advantages to build walls and counter-strike Palestine. Is one method more moral than the other? In war, morality is always blurred. Both Isreal and Palestine believe they are fighting for holy land and that God has given them the right to this land. A solution can only exist when either Israel gives up and dissolves or the Palestinians accept Israel's prescense in the Middle East.

Stop bringing that up. Just stop bringing that up. You deal with that "peace deal" in a bigoted fashion. Just stop.

You fail to mention that the 3% not covered by that "deal" was Jerusalem. There can not be a Palestinian state without Jerusalem.


As for you guys, you demand proof and links, when you fail to provide proof and links. All what you said is propaganda, pure and simple. Propaganda. Lies. Unfounded accusations. Unless you provide proof that is. Unbiased proof. Which you can not.
Barak actually offered the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem as well.

also tv programme onU.S. survailence ship that was hit by Israeli forces in 6day war said Israel attacked Golan heights during cease fire(BAD) while another(COMMAND DECISIONS)said they attacked while negotiating a cease fire slight difference which ones lying?
The USS Liberty, a friend of ours was in the Navy at the time and told me what actually happened.

The Liberty was a US spy ship, the debate was over whether they were in Israeli waters or not. Lets accept that they were right on the edge anyway. Israel demanded that the Liberty identify itself, but seeing as they were a spy ship, they didn't want to be identified. Israel gave the unknown ship 24 hours to withdraw, they didn't move. Israel sent in ships and planes and destroyed the liberty. A US flag and the words USS Liberty aren't exactly master espionage tactics. Even the Egyptians could do that. So the ship was blown up.

Stop bringing that up. Just stop bringing that up. You deal with that "peace deal" in a bigoted fashion. Just stop.

And you deal with anything pro-israel as if it doesnt exist....

You fail to mention that the 3% not covered by that "deal" was Jerusalem. There can not be a Palestinian state without Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is mainly Jewish if you forget....


As for you guys, you demand proof and links, when you fail to provide proof and links. All what you said is propaganda, pure and simple. Propaganda. Lies. Unfounded accusations. Unless you provide proof that is. Unbiased proof. Which you can not.

Link for what? Tell us what you want a link for, and we'll give it to you.

Stop bringing that up. Just stop bringing that up. You deal with that "peace deal" in a bigoted fashion. Just stop.

You fail to mention that the 3% not covered by that "deal" was Jerusalem. There can not be a Palestinian state without Jerusalem.


As for you guys, you demand proof and links, when you fail to provide proof and links. All what you said is propaganda, pure and simple. Propaganda. Lies. Unfounded accusations. Unless you provide proof that is. Unbiased proof. Which you can not.

If that is the case then will never be peace. Israel will never give up Jerusalem. Whether right or wrong it will never happen.

http://www.honestreporting.com/m/legacy.asp

Isreal have no need for nuclear weapons, what you gonna nuke the West Bank? Or perhaps Egypt? Isreal have no 'enemies' that arent within fall out range. Just remember what they did to the man who had the conscious to alert the world to the nuclear programme? They kidnapped him from London, imprisoned him and tortured him for years.

Yes but as I said earlier it offered no chance for those in exile to return.
More than half of those "exiled" fled. And besides, was there a need to start the Intifada afterwards?

An article after Palestinians destroyed Joseph's tomb
Protesters wreck Jewish shrine as troops withdraw

By Alan Philps in Nablus, West Bank
Issue #1962
PALESTINIANS set about destroying a Jewish holy shrine with their bare hands yesterday after the Israeli army was forced to concede defeat and evacuate it after nine days of stone-throwing protests. The Palestinians had promised to protect the site, known as Joseph's Tomb, but police stood by while youths set it on fire and attacked its domes with iron bars, stones and hammers.

"We are destroying it. No Jew will ever come here again," said an 18-year-old protester. "Whether we are allowed or not, we will continue. This is a popular revolution." While gunmen loosed off victory shots into the air, Nablus residents came to the site with wrenches to loot the piping and roofing materials from the Jewish seminary and the Israeli army post that protected it.

The destruction of the shrine sent shockwaves through Israel, with politicians accusing Ehud Barak, the prime minister, of giving in to Palestinian violence. The failure of the Palestinian police to keep their side of the bargain was likely to rule out any hope of future agreements with the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat.

Jerusalem is holy to other religions aswell. The orginal plan to have Jersualem an 'International City' separate from the two states is by far the best option.

Guys, please remember that this isn't are Israel right or wrong but is Arafat a terrorist or not. This is for your feelings towards Arafat. Not Israel. Thanks.
I'd say that Arafat was about as much a terrorist as, in their time, Jomo Kenyatta, Moshe Dayan, or Nelson Mandela were. How about that way of looking at him?

Isreal have no need for nuclear weapons, what you gonna nuke the West Bank? Or perhaps Egypt? Isreal have no 'enemies' that arent within fall out range. Just remember what they did to the man who had the conscious to alert the world to the nuclear programme? They kidnapped him from London, imprisoned him and tortured him for years.

1. Egypt and Syria actually yes, Israel can easily wipe out all the terrorists... but the media would declare it a massacre on Israels part.

2. Don't you think you can design a nuke with a limited fall out range? maybe they would have to decrease the power, but still it is possible.

3. Yes they arrested a Traitor Spy... most countries would do the same thing.

4. Actually from Rome. And he was in solitary confinement for his actions, which is a kinder sentence then death.

A picture of the desctruction of Joseph's tomb (http://www.israel-wat.com/kever3.jpg)

More than half of those "exiled" fled. And besides, was there a need to start the Intifada afterwards?

An article after Palestinians destroyed Joseph's tomb
Protesters wreck Jewish shrine as troops withdraw

By Alan Philps in Nablus, West Bank
Issue #1962
PALESTINIANS set about destroying a Jewish holy shrine with their bare hands yesterday after the Israeli army was forced to concede defeat and evacuate it after nine days of stone-throwing protests. The Palestinians had promised to protect the site, known as Joseph's Tomb, but police stood by while youths set it on fire and attacked its domes with iron bars, stones and hammers.

"We are destroying it. No Jew will ever come here again," said an 18-year-old protester. "Whether we are allowed or not, we will continue. This is a popular revolution." While gunmen loosed off victory shots into the air, Nablus residents came to the site with wrenches to loot the piping and roofing materials from the Jewish seminary and the Israeli army post that protected it.

The destruction of the shrine sent shockwaves through Israel, with politicians accusing Ehud Barak, the prime minister, of giving in to Palestinian violence. The failure of the Palestinian police to keep their side of the bargain was likely to rule out any hope of future agreements with the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat.


Wasnt the newest Intifada sparked off by comments made by Sharon at the Wailing Wall? The Israelies have destroyed mosques aswell.

Did Nelson, Dayan and Kenyatta, attack civilians on purpose, and use terror as mean of getting their state?

Or were they exceptions?

Wasnt the newest Intifada sparked off by comments made by Sharon at the Wailing Wall? The Israelies have destroyed mosques aswell.
No, a high-ranking PLO spokesman declared that the INtifada was pre-planned. This wan't any holy site it was a BIBLICAL site. It's like of Israel destroyed the Dome of the Rock

Wasnt the newest Intifada sparked off by comments made by Sharon at the Wailing Wall? The Israelies have destroyed mosques aswell.
nope. It was started when Sharon walked through the Jewish area of Jerusalem. How dare he? I mean, really!

1. Egypt and Syria actually yes, Israel can easily wipe out all the terrorists... but the media would declare it a massacre on Israels part.

2. Don't you think you can design a nuke with a limited fall out range? maybe they would have to decrease the power, but still it is possible.

3. Yes they arrested a Traitor Spy... most countries would do the same thing.

4. Actually from Rome. And he was in solitary confinement for his actions, which is a kinder sentence then death.

Your forgetting that developing nuclear weapons is prohibted by the UN, so he was acting in the right.
Big deal the fallouts smaller, still cant use the ground for a century.
You really think that all of them are terrorists? Thats blatant rascism.

Did Nelson, Dayan and Kenyatta, attack civilians on purpose, and use terror as mean of getting their state?

Or were they exceptions?

As ive already said, I dont condone their actions. My point is that I dont condone those of Israel either.

Ok, I don't think you'll find any one saying Arfat was a saint ok.. but why is it that Israel puts all the blame on Palestine and never takes any of the blame themselves, as if they were just some innocent by standers? I mean they are occupying the Palestinians, what reaction do you expect? I want you to think for a second how YOU would react if a foreign people & government came in and occupied your tiny piece of the pie. Killed your children, your sisters and brother, mothers and fathers. There is no shortage of blame to go around here. No one side is innocent here. For every action there is a reaction and as long as the reaction on both sides is violence, they are both guilty.. and isn't that was it really boils down to? Come on here people. Use your nut! ;)

Your forgetting that developing nuclear weapons is prohibted by the UN, so he was acting in the right.
Big deal the fallouts smaller, still cant use the ground for a century.
You really think that all of them are terrorists? Thats blatant rascism.

It is not prohibited, it is discouraged. As far as i know there is no UN resolution to ban nukes.

I didnt say they were all terrorists, i just said the process of killing all the terrorists there, would involve thousands of civilian casualties.

Your forgetting that developing nuclear weapons is prohibted by the UN, so he was acting in the right.
You really think that all of them are terrorists? Thats blatant rascism.
He didn't say that all of them are terrorists. He said that they could kill all the terrorists but it would kill civilians.
So the US, Russia, etc... are illegal?

You fail to mention that the 3% not covered by that "deal" was Jerusalem. There can not be a Palestinian state without Jerusalem.

Absolutely! Palestine deserves J'lem, because it is referred to in the koran about... 0 times. Compared to the Torah, I'd say that's roughly 700 times less, give or take a hundred.

As such, Israel should demand Medina, Baghdad and Mecca. Why not? It makes as much sense as asking for the single holiest place on earth for the two first major monotheistic religions!

That way, the next corrupt dictator in lieu of Arafat (my opinion is, I hope they bury him under a urinal) will be able to desecrate the only standing wall of THE temple by installing horse stalls and garbage deposits in it. Such tolerant people!

I wonder why SOME people still don't see the error of their ways and don't simply kill us jews on sight...

Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and various resolutions against nuclear proliferation. The US used alot less evidence to attack Iraq... but then the US has always had a double standard in this.

the real terrorism starts when you define people like XXXXs and non-XXXXs...I think everybody understands who I am referring to...terrorising the must be base of humanity: equality...so pls stop playing the innocent looser...
take a deep breathe and look what you did...
since we all have red blood in our veins, we can still save the world
do not forget that everybody has a point of view and do not lay te seeds of anger, at least stop it from now...you all see, where we all end up...

He didn't say that all of them are terrorists. He said that they could kill all the terrorists but it would kill civilians.
So the US, Russia, etc... are illegal?

The treaties have been established since the end of the cold war.

the real terrorism starts when you define people like XXXXs and non-XXXXs...I think everybody understands who I am referring to...terrorising the must be base of humanity: equality...so pls stop playing the innocent looser...
take a deep breathe and look what you did...
since we all have red blood in our veins, we can still save the world
do not forget that everybody has a point of view and do not lay te seeds of anger, at least stop it from now...you all see, where we all end up...

Here here

Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and various resolutions against nuclear proliferation. The US used alot less evidence to attack Iraq... but then the US has always had a double standard in this.
I don't know about the NTB in particular but I know Israel didn't sign the non-proliferation treaty.

Whether or not Arafat was a terrorist or not is irrelevant, because the Israelis,whatever they claim, do NOT have the right to invade other people's countries.When Palestine agreed to give the Jews Israel after the war did they say,'Oh, and feel free to take some more if you ever feel like it'?No,I didn't think so.Yet the Israelis and americans still think it is acceptable to take someone else's land.It wasn't acceptable when Hitler invaded Poland, it wasn't acceptable when Iraq invaded Kuwait,it wasn't acceptable when North Korea invaded South Korea, so why should Israel be any different?They have been given so many UN sanctions to get out of Palestine but think they can ignore it.Arafat is no terrorist, just a man willing to stand up against the Israelis.

The treaties have been established since the end of the cold war.

So how do you know that Israel is still developing them?

I mean Canada has nuclear plants... how do we know they're not secretly building nukes.

Maybe we're not as innocent as we look.... ;)

Isreal and Palistine, both the same place. Problem is there are two peoples claiming that place. In the end, its us, the brits and the americans who are to blame, we put the Jewish nation there, and instead of intergrating the peoples we evicted one and placed the other in the lions den! The reason Isreal has its policy of shoot first ask questions later is because of the fact that every war they've faught they've been out numbered and out gunned, they cant afford to react to someone elses moves. This is why you see them rocketing apartment buildings and bombing terrorist leaders.
Arafat may have been a funder of terrorism to us, but to his people he was a leader, a freedom fighter, defender of palistine. You only have to look at todays pictures to see his populartiy. I disagree that he had the opertunity to create a state for his people, as they were esentialy imprisson by isrealy forces. Hopefully, with Arafat dead, Sharon willbe able to find the ability to talk between these two peoples, cos thats the only way this will ever truly come to an end, by talking!

Absolutely! Palestine deserves J'lem

See this is some thing I don't get about religious people. All the big three, Jews, Christians and Islamics all believe in the exact same God. Why should Jews have the right to J'lem when it's not even them who believe in Jesus, so if we go by bible books here, then technically it should go to Christians. I mean fighting over religion has got to be one of the stupidest things ever. All these people fighting over some thing that may just turn out to not be true at all any way. Silliness, down right silliness.

Both sides had their part to play, but to the furthest extent, Isreal had played out most of theirs. Palestine had not, their still reeking with terrorist organizations in which their sole purpose is the destruction of Isreal, and no other compromise.

I agree Arafat is a terrorist, or was. Anyway, overall as a leader, he still was a hopeless leader, never agreeing to the peace pact, and never cleaning up his country of terrorists (probably he was supporting them anyway, but that is speculative).

Plus he kept the Billions of aid fund, which I'm sure now the Palestinian authorities are going to try and pry it out of his wife's fingers as much as they can.

Hopefully now that Arafats gone, the next person in line, would do a better job, wiping out Hamas and other terrorist factions, sticking to the borders, and building a wall on their sides too so that their stupid children would stop throwing rocks and shooting their home-made potato guns.

Though I very much doubt it.

Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and various resolutions against nuclear proliferation. The US used alot less evidence to attack Iraq... but then the US has always had a double standard in this.

You're right, it's shocking that we would feel more threatened by Iraq with possible WMD than Israel. Iraq has been consistently hostile to the US for 15 years and invaded our ally Kuwait, whereas Israel has been a strong ally of the United States since World War II. This double standard is impossible to comprehend!

See this is some thing I don't get about religious people. All the big three, Jews, Christians and Islamics all believe in the exact same God. Why should Jews have the right to J'lem when it's not even them who believe in Jesus, so if we go by bible books here, then technically it should go to Christians. I mean fighting over religion has got to be one of the stupidest things ever. All these people fighting over some thing that may just turn out to not be true at all any way. Silliness, down right silliness.
In case you're wondering, any Jew, Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist can visit Jerusalem, NOT JUST JEWS. And also, Jerusalem was mentioned in the Old testament hundreds of years before Jesus

Whether or not Arafat was a terrorist or not is irrelevant, because the Israelis,whatever they claim, do NOT have the right to invade other people's countries.When Palestine agreed to give the Jews Israel after the war did they say,'Oh, and feel free to take some more if you ever feel like it'?No,I didn't think so.Yet the Israelis and americans still think it is acceptable to take someone else's land.It wasn't acceptable when Hitler invaded Poland, it wasn't acceptable when Iraq invaded Kuwait,it wasn't acceptable when North Korea invaded South Korea, so why should Israel be any different?They have been given so many UN sanctions to get out of Palestine but think they can ignore it.Arafat is no terrorist, just a man willing to stand up against the Israelis.

THroughout history its generally acceptable to take land won in war.
Example: Country A attacks Country B. B wins and takes a little A land. Since A lost he has no choice and it is legally B's.

Another example American Civil War. Union beat Confederate so they legally own their land.

So Isreal won that land fair and square by defending itself.

Hitler attacked another country to take land. But he gave no good rational. They were not at war. He just attacked.
If Poland attacked Hitler and Hitler beat themn then Poland is Hitlers by default for losing. But Hitler was the aggressor.
You have to have good rationale for war to be right.(some say war is never right but we will overlook that in this argument.)

See this is some thing I don't get about religious people. All the big three, Jews, Christians and Islamics all believe in the exact same God. Why should Jews have the right to J'lem when it's not even them who believe in Jesus, so if we go by bible books here, then technically it should go to Christians. I mean fighting over religion has got to be one of the stupidest things ever. All these people fighting over some thing that may just turn out to not be true at all any way. Silliness, down right silliness.

1. Israel allows all worshippers to go to Jerusalem..the fact we control it, does not matter.

2. Why the Christians? I thought it was only Bethlehem and Nazareth that you cared for.... But Jerusalem is the home of the Temple Mount.

3. Even if let's say G-d doesnt exist, it doesnt excuse the fact that the Jew's need a homeland for themselves, to insure a WW2 never happens again.

Originally the plan was to give them Madagascar.. or even Uganda.

So how do you know that Israel is still developing them?

I mean Canada has nuclear plants... how do we know they're not secretly building nukes.

Maybe we're not as innocent as we look.... ;)

Well it seems the US are gonna use that kind of evidence to attack Iran... :rolleyes:

Whether or not Arafat was a terrorist or not is irrelevant, because the Israelis,whatever they claim, do NOT have the right to invade other people's countries.When Palestine agreed to give the Jews Israel after the war did they say,'Oh, and feel free to take some more if you ever feel like it'?No,I didn't think so.Yet the Israelis and americans still think it is acceptable to take someone else's land.It wasn't acceptable when Hitler invaded Poland, it wasn't acceptable when Iraq invaded Kuwait,it wasn't acceptable when North Korea invaded South Korea, so why should Israel be any different?They have been given so many UN sanctions to get out of Palestine but think they can ignore it.Arafat is no terrorist, just a man willing to stand up against the Israelis.
Germany=Nation
Iraq=nation
Jews=?
We weren't a nation. And for the record, neither did we just wake up and say "oooohh I fancy that land, lets go over there and take it"
The UN gave us the land, which was under British Mandate. We didn't have weapons, money or support before, so how did we invade?

Well it seems the US are gonna use that kind of evidence to attack Iran... :rolleyes:


Err... Didn;t Iran already announce they have Nuclear Plants.. and that most of the Government wants to build them, and might even be in development... or have i been reading/seeing the news wrong...

Whether or not Arafat was a terrorist or not is irrelevant, because the Israelis,whatever they claim, do NOT have the right to invade other people's countries.

When Palestine agreed to give the Jews Israel after the war did they say,'Oh, and feel free to take some more if you ever feel like it'? No,I didn't think so.

Yet the Israelis and americans still think it is acceptable to take someone else's land. It wasn't acceptable when Hitler invaded Poland, it wasn't acceptable when Iraq invaded Kuwait, it wasn't acceptable when North Korea invaded South Korea, so why should Israel be any different?

They have been given so many UN sanctions to get out of Palestine but think they can ignore it. Arafat is no terrorist, just a man willing to stand up against the Israelis.

First of all, make some alinea's and put a space after every sentence, makes it a lot of easier to read. I've done it for you, ain't that nice and it just took me a couple of seconds.

The palestinians didn't give the land to Israel, Britain did, since before and during WWII this area was under british control (although there lived few people back then, most of the palestinians came here during the 6 day one, Arafat being one of them.)

Israel has been under constant attack by terrorists from Palestine, they have the right, no the duty to defend themselves. The Israeli's, during their control build schools, build up the infrastructure and took good care of Palestine. Then they gave it back in 1993, Arafat got in power and it became a corrupt pit. Our tax money went directly to the leaders, that drove around in SUV's and build some nice villa's. What was left went to funding terrorist organisations.

Arafat led a number of terrorist organisations, he gave them money, he gave them instructions and he refused to take action against them. That makes him a terrorist, maybe he was indeed a freedom fighter, but he was one that used terrorist tactics, that continued to use them when that "freedom" (if your intrepation of the word freedom is yet another islam dictatorship) was achieved.

In case you're wondering, any Jew, Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist can visit Jerusalem, NOT JUST JEWS. And also, Jerusalem was mentioned in the Old testament hundreds of years before Jesus

This means what? That a book that can't be proven factual should some how have a say in the 21st century? Give me a break. No wonder these people can't get along. Probably never will either with people believing that "cause the bible says so" is a valid argument. :rolleyes:

A brilliant link:
http://www.israel-wat.com/f6_eng.htm

In case you're wondering, any Jew, Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist can visit Jerusalem, NOT JUST JEWS. And also, Jerusalem was mentioned in the Old testament hundreds of years before Jesus

Stephistan should be aware of that, or she didn't read my post in its entirety.

I'd also like to add that the whole "fighting for religion" crap is never started by jews. Find me ONE inflammatory speech in which a rabbi called christians and muslims "the sons of pigs and dogs", or that "christians and muslims use non-christian and non-muslim teenager blood to bake bread".

Just ONE!

This means what? That a book that can't be proven factual should some how have a say in the 21st century? Give me a break. No wonder these people can't get along. Probably never will either with people believing that "cause the bible says so" is a valid argument.


It's not as if it's been proven wrong either, technically... It's like me saying i have a pen next to me.

You can't see me, all you can do is trust that i do have that pen...

*starts writing with his pen*

:fluffle: I love you pen....

^^;

This means what? That a book that can't be proven factual should some how have a say in the 21st century? Give me a break. No wonder these people can't get along. Probably never will either with people believing that "cause the bible says so" is a valid argument. :rolleyes:
This is true, but my first point was more inportant. I was just correcting an earlier misstatement

I'd also like to add that the whole "fighting for religion" crap is never started by jews. Find me ONE inflammatory speech in which a rabbi called christians and muslims "the sons of pigs and dogs", or that "christians and muslims use non-christian and non-muslim teenager blood to bake bread".


Well i don't think we have those... but we certainly do have terrorists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahane_Chai

Actually they;re the last ones left.

I'd also like to add that the whole "fighting for religion" crap is never started by jews. Find me ONE inflammatory speech in which a rabbi called christians and muslims "the sons of pigs and dogs", or that "christians and muslims use non-christian and non-muslim teenager blood to bake bread".


Well i don't think we have those... but we certainly do have terrorists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahane_Chai

Actually they;re the last ones left.
I'm pro-Israel and I hated Kanahe!The political party Kach is so extreme that it's BANNED!

After reading the posts, I once kneel down of this great statement of Mr Marx:
Religion is the opium of masses...
you all talking like stunned soccer fans!!! :headbang:

i know.. but at least they're aren;t active anymore.

See Israel cracks down on its own terrorists. :)

The sooner the human race leaves behind the misguided ways or 'religion' the better! It causes so many problems in this world.

See Israel cracks down on its own terrorists. :)
Excellent point!

so's my pen!

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/admin/alumni/red-pen-small.jpg

Shiny and pointy :)

The sooner the human race leaves behind the misguided ways or 'religion' the better! It causes so many problems in this world.
as is that! It's just like John Lennon said...

so's my pen!

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/admin/alumni/red-pen-small.jpg

Shiny and pointy :)
you're giving us a bad name here! :D

After reading the posts, I once kneel down of this great statement of Mr Marx:
Religion is the opium of masses...
you all talking like stunned soccer fans!!! :headbang:

The quote is actualy "religion is the opiate of the masses", essetialy not the drug but the pain killer!

as is that! It's just like John Lennon said...

What'd he say?

What'd he say?
"...Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion, too..." from Imagine

The quote is actualy "religion is the opiate of the masses", essetialy not the drug but the pain killer!
then this is my version... ;)

you're giving us a bad name here!

No this is a bad name.... Elmer... sounds so... weird.


And heres a bad joke.

What do you call a jew going in Slow Motion?

Shlomo!

:p

That collateral you mentioned. Lets take the example of Sheikh Yassin. 2 people were killed with him. They weren't civilians as you were lead to believe, they were probably his bodyguards. If you work for a terrorist, that'll be your end, and a well deserved one too.

Argue a point, by all means, but don't resort to lying to do it.

We have covered this in other threads, you and I, and you still insist on lying about it:

"In addition to Yassin, who was in his 60s, 12 Palestinians were killed Monday, seven in the airstrike, four in clashes with Israeli troops and one while handling explosives.

The attack came before daybreak, when Israeli helicopters swooped toward a Gaza street and fired three missiles as Yassin, his bodyguards and dozens of others left the mosque.

Blood and flesh splattered on the walls. Nearby windows shattered. Only a charred metal seat and two twisted wheels were left of Yassin's wheelchair, and a blood-soaked brown shoe lay in the street. Lying in tatters nearby was the brown blanket in which Yassin — a quadriplegic — was nearly always wrapped.

"Two or three people were lying next to him on the ground. One was legless," said taxi driver Yousef Haddad.

Among those killed were several of Yassin's bodyguards and his son-in-law. Seventeen people were wounded, including two of Yassin's sons."

That is the article from USAToday: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03-21-gaza-blasts_x.htm

Bearing in mind that the US is Israel's number one ally, the fact that a US source reports the 'assassination' (like you can call it that, when you fire three air-to-surface missiles from helicopter gunships, at a man in a wheelchair as he leaves church...) in this fashion is very telling.

Seven Fatalities.

Seventeen injured.

No this is a bad name.... Elmer... sounds so... weird.


And heres a bad joke.

What do you call a jew going in Slow Motion?

Shlomo!

:p
you're awful! STOP THE PAIN! :headbang:

WTF does the fact that he's in a wheelchair have to do with anything? He's a terrorist, end of story. I couldn't give a toss whether he was in a wheelchair or in a Ferrari.

you're awful! STOP THE PAIN! :headbang:

This Pain? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Pain)

they disbanded years ago...

Sitting-Bull was a terrorist?
The french resistance were terrorists?
Everyone who defends his country against powerful invaders is a terrorist whe he has no tanks, planes or nukes?

The question is NOT if Arafat was a terrorist - the question is if it is allowed to steal land and kill people with regular armies and HOW the weaker side can defend their interests.

Just look to Israels history and you will find that they used terrorist methods in order to build their own state.
For example:
- The jewish Hagana blow a ship with jewish emigrants (Patria) 25 November 1940. 267 People died.

- The jewish Irgung blow the King David Hotel in Jerusalem (July 22 1946). 92 Persons were killed and David-Ben-Gurion gave the permission to this act.

You can find a lot of such things in Israels history - as you will find a lot of such things in the history of their arab neighbourghs.

Sharon himself is seen by a lot of people as a killer.

I don´t want to attack Israel or to defend Arafat. I only think it is better to think about reasons and fight for justice than to claim over others.

Arafat USED terrorist methods in order to fight for the interest of the palestinian people. Sharon USES methods of state-terrorism in order to defend his interests.
This only can end in a catastrophe. I hope the USA tries now to improve a just solution - just for BOTH sides.

IMHO:
Saying that Arafat refused peace because palestine have "not enough land" is unfair. He is a leader and he has to be fair with his people. I agree that peace is better, but, he would lose all the respect of the people accepting the unfair deals of Israel and, truth is, Palestines are terrorists, so, if the leader loses his respect, it matters shit that there is a piece of paper called "peace" signed by both sides, war would break.
This is a very complex question, and, IMHO (and I agree I can be very very very wrong), I think Israel should give Palestine whatever they want in exchange of the end of all terrorists groups in there.

What's the difference between a "terrorist" and a "freedom fighter"? The answer is quite often: the latter were successfull. A lot of people in the past have used terror as means to getting what they want, and that by definition makes them terrorists. Including, interestingly enough, the Israelis. Pot calling the kettle black? Sure sounds that way...

WTF does the fact that he's in a wheelchair have to do with anything? He's a terrorist, end of story. I couldn't give a toss whether he was in a wheelchair or in a Ferrari.
who is terrorist? who is freedom fighter? what do you mean by terrorism? how can you define terrorism? for some, sharon is a terrorist? for the same some, it does not matter, if he is a elected prime minister, or millions of fans around a region? even once Turkish PM said, sharon acts state terror...does it give Turkish helicopters the right to nail Sharon down to ground? Politicians are to think and talk, to act for killing starts when the talks and thought is over, which they always prefer...

Did Nelson, Dayan and Kenyatta, attack civilians on purpose, and use terror as mean of getting their state?

Or were they exceptions?

Here's a few URLs which suggest that they did:

http://tinyurl.co.uk/uwp8

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/guide20/part05c.html

http://www.economist.co.uk/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1622138

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Mau-Mau

(Kenyatta was imprisoned for alleged activities with the Mau-Mau, though denied)

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/terrorism

(Doesn't mention Dayan by name, but does mention Yitzshak Shamir and Menachem Begin. Dayan was, If memory serves correctly, imprisoned by the British on terrorist-related charges)

Of course, many would call these people freedom fighters. I prefer to condemn All such actions, otherwise whether or not you feel blowing someone up is acceptable or not depends purely on what you think of the bombers cause.

WTF does the fact that he's in a wheelchair have to do with anything? He's a terrorist, end of story. I couldn't give a toss whether he was in a wheelchair or in a Ferrari.

His point was, funnily enough that why does it need 3 rockets to kill a frail man in a wheelchair? Bit excessive. If they had to kill him would a sniper rifle not do?

This is why I should rule the world.If I ruled the world,we'd move Israel to the North Pole and fill the empty space with concrete for the palestinians.

MuhOre

I suppose that is why that 12 (think she was 12) year old palestinian schoolgirl was shot to pieces and then the brave soldier who did it pumped many more rounds into her at close range whilst stood over her.

A thoroughly regretable incident but not the only one I am sure.


I know Israel makes mistakes, but at least they apologize and dicsipline their soldiers.

Anyways i g2g have fun pplz. :p

Sitting-Bull was a terrorist?
The french resistance were terrorists?
Everyone who defends his country against powerful invaders is a terrorist whe he has no tanks, planes or nukes?

The question is NOT if Arafat was a terrorist - the question is if it is allowed to steal land and kill people with regular armies and HOW the weaker side can defend their interests.

Just look to Israels history and you will find that they used terrorist methods in order to build their own state.
For example:
- The jewish Hagana blow a ship with jewish emigrants (Patria) 25 November 1940. 267 People died.

- The jewish Irgung blow the King David Hotel in Jerusalem (July 22 1946). 92 Persons were killed and David-Ben-Gurion gave the permission to this act.

You can find a lot of such things in Israels history - as you will find a lot of such things in the history of their arab neighbourghs.

Sharon himself is seen by a lot of people as a killer.

I don´t want to attack Israel or to defend Arafat. I only think it is better to think about reasons and fight for justice than to claim over others.

Arafat USED terrorist methods in order to fight for the interest of the palestinian people. Sharon USES methods of state-terrorism in order to defend his interests.
This only can end in a catastrophe. I hope the USA tries now to improve a just solution - just for BOTH sides.
oh god!!!if finding solution is left into US hands, then do not expect a peacfull solution for the next 4 years...

The terrorist tactics of small Israeli militia's (not big organisations, that recieve funding from the Palestinian Authority (which is actually our tax money, ment for humanitarian purposes) cannot be compared to those of the palestinians, also let it be noted that this was 60 years ago.

Sharon was chosen democracticly (which can't be said of most of the leaders of Israel's neighbours) he has a majority of his people behind him. That is only what counts, so either the jewish people don't think he's a killer, or the palestinians got the jewish so fed up (gee, people get mad over the strangest things...why would anyone get angry if some boy walks into a bus straped with explosives and accidently blow himself up?) that they actually wanted a killer....since by the time he was elected it was proven that Arafat wasn't really intrested in peace negotiations and that stuff (who can blame him?)

who is terrorist? who is freedom fighter? what do you mean by terrorism? how can you define terrorism? for some, sharon is a terrorist? for the same some, it does not matter, if he is a elected prime minister, or millions of fans around a region? even once Turkish PM said, sharon acts state terror...does it give Turkish helicopters the right to nail Sharon down to ground? Politicians are to think and talk, to act for killing starts when the talks and thought is over, which they always prefer...
Yassin was a man who ordered the complete destruction of Israel, he was advocating genocide. Therefore in my book, he's a terrorist. He wasn't a politician in any way.

I think there will be no solution if the US is asked - i HOPE!

But it is still hard to hope for a JUST solution knowing about people like Perle, Wolvowitz and others with connections to Israel.

USA rules the world. And pression groups rule the USA.

[QUOTE=The Administratum]Let's not forget that Arafat walked away from a peace deal that would have seen the state of Palestine created with, what, 97% of the West Bank and Gaza, and he walked away in 2000.

The simple fact is, he was given a chance for peace, he decided he couldn't face his people after declaring Nasser a traitor for signing peace with Israel and then signing this document, so he ordered his people to take up arms and start shooting. He's a terrorist. Regardless of Israels faults, and it does take two to tango, but someone has to initiate the dance and this most recent of deadly dances was initiated by Arafat after he dismissed a good and solid chance for peace.

:) I was waiting for someone to bring that up. The only reason he refused the deal is he refused to recognize Israel's right to exist. As a consequence of his refusal, his people remain in poverty and turmoil, murder people, and blame all their problems on the Jews.

Was Arafat a terrorist? Yes!

I think there will be no solution if the US is asked - i HOPE!

But it is still hard to hope for a JUST solution knowing about people like Perle, Wolvowitz and others with connections to Israel.

USA rules the world. And pression groups rule the USA.
Not quite accurate, but close enough, Pressure groups are the ones controlling W, and he is the one that calls the shots in the US. So your point was true, but not the exact truth.

its all well and good to be dissing arafat but the palestinians and their suicide bombers aren't the only ones to blame. First of all you can blame England for starting the whole damn mess because they didn't take the time to think about what some of the the consequences might be of just randomly creating a nation in the middle of someone elses holy land...also you can blame isreal for being so oppressive of the palestinians...palestinians wouldn't be so pissed if they weren't being walled off into little tiny corners of the map. then of course you can blame america for supporting the israeli oppression and just generally pissing most of the world off...

its all well and good to be dissing arafat but the palestinians and their suicide bombers aren't the only ones to blame. First of all you can blame England for starting the whole damn mess because they didn't take the time to think about what some of the the consequences might be of just randomly creating a nation in the middle of someone elses holy land...also you can blame isreal for being so oppressive of the palestinians...palestinians wouldn't be so pissed if they weren't being walled off into little tiny corners of the map. then of course you can blame america for supporting the israeli oppression and just generally pissing most of the world off...
Finally. Someone that sees the real problem here. Finger pointing will get you nowhere, fast. All the sides should stop, take a deep breath, screw their heads on straight, and actually work out a deal that they can all live with. It isn't that hard, is it?

Yassin was a man who ordered the complete destruction of Israel, he was advocating genocide. Therefore in my book, he's a terrorist. He wasn't a politician in any way.

No, he didn´t... :rolleyes:
He ordered complete destruction of israelis who were in Palestine´s land. Now, Sharon did the exactly same thing. That´s the complicated side of this war. Nobody can decide who keeps certain portion of the land, but none side wants to invade the other, they just wants what they think is fair.

Incidently there are numerous UN resolutions calling for Israel to return to the original borders that have been passed by everyone but the US...

No, they were not "passed" because the U.S. used its veto.

its all well and good to be dissing arafat but the palestinians and their suicide bombers aren't the only ones to blame. First of all you can blame England for starting the whole damn mess because they didn't take the time to think about what some of the the consequences might be of just randomly creating a nation in the middle of someone elses holy land...also you can blame isreal for being so oppressive of the palestinians...palestinians wouldn't be so pissed if they weren't being walled off into little tiny corners of the map. then of course you can blame america for supporting the israeli oppression and just generally pissing most of the world off...

Very true, as always, the "1st world" dictates what happens in the "3rd world" and who disagrees is a "terrorist" and "enemy of freedom"

You fail to mention that the 3% not covered by that "deal" was Jerusalem. There can not be a Palestinian state without Jerusalem.

Why not?

The terrorist tactics of small Israeli militia's (not big organisations, that recieve funding from the Palestinian Authority (which is actually our tax money, ment for humanitarian purposes) cannot be compared to those of the palestinians, also let it be noted that this was 60 years ago.

Sharon was chosen democracticly (which can't be said of most of the leaders of Israel's neighbours) he has a majority of his people behind him. That is only what counts, so either the jewish people don't think he's a killer, or the palestinians got the jewish so fed up (gee, people get mad over the strangest things...why would anyone get angry if some boy walks into a bus straped with explosives and accidently blow himself up?) that they actually wanted a killer....since by the time he was elected it was proven that Arafat wasn't really intrested in peace negotiations and that stuff (who can blame him?)

The PLO is older than the Palestinian Authority and i think you would classfy them as "small Palestinian militia's". ;)

Those terrorist attacks were performed 60 years ago, because Israel had no regular army, no tanks, no nukes... Now they don´t need such methods.

I only wanted to show that people that are opressed or think they are suppresed don´t need a plane in order to throw a bomb. For the dead it is not a big diferrence if they are killed by a bomb in a bag or from a bomb thrown by a plane. Terrorist methods are the war methods of the weak and poor.
War is the terrorist method of the powerful and rich.

Dead is dead...

And i think that Sharon is a killer because of his role in the massacre of Sabra and Shatila 1982.
OK Sharon was elected and has the majority of the people behind him. So what? His role in this massacre remains the same and i think it is awful that the majority of a nation stands behind a person with his past.

A brilliant link:
http://www.israel-wat.com/f6_eng.htm

Some of thses statements are mutually contradictory, and even with my third-rate knowledge of history, several more points are downright wrong.

[QUOTE=Wealthania]After reading the posts, I once kneel down of this great statement of Mr Marx:
Religion is the opium of masses...

Whereas, of course, all Marxist regeimes have been paragons of freedom and gentleness, I suppose, run by kind benevolent people like Ol' Uncle Joe.

The Israelis are the terrorists.

“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”

— Yitzhak Shamir
Israeli Prime Minister, Zionist terrorist
in an August 1943 article titled “Terror”, written for Hazit
the journal of Lehi, the terrorist organization he belonged to
.........................................................................................

“Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

— Ariel Sharon
Israeli Prime Minister
........................................
Media bias whitewashes Israeli terrorism ?



by Ray Hanania
I expected to wake up to read the headline, "Jewish terrorists murder Arabs."

But, of course, that was not to be.

Members of Israel's fanatic settler movement killed three Palestinian civilians July 19th, including a 3 and 1/2 month old baby, Diya.

Suddenly, the news media finds a conscience.

They start using terms like "Israeli underground" or "Settler vigilantes," instead of the much harsher terms used to describe similar acts by Palestinians which include "barbaric terrorists," and "blood thirsty Arab killers." One declared cleverly that a "blast" caused the killings
(7/23/01)
..................................................................................
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For immediate release
Defence for Children International/Palestine Section
1 October 2000

ref: 001800

Israeli Occupation Forces Kill Palestinian Child in Cold Blood

At approximately 2:30pm yesterday afternoon, Israeli occupation forces
killed 12 year old, Mohammed Jamal Ahmad Al-Dura, of Gaza, in cold blood
while he was seeking protection with his father from Israeli fire. Minutes
after killing Mohammed, Israeli forces, who were positioned a few meters
from the father and son, shot and seriously wounded his father, 42 year
old, Jamal Al-Dura. Shortly thereafter, when Palestinian Red Crescent
Society ambulance driver Bassam Al-Balbisi, 45, approached the father and
son in order to move them into an ambulance, he was shot and killed by the
Israeli soldiers as well. Jamal, the father of five remaining children, is
in critical condition, having sustained five bullets, to the upper thigh,
pelvis, stomach, and lower leg.

The killings took place shortly after Israeli soldiers opened fire
spontaneously and randomly on a group of Palestinian protestors near the
illegal Israeli settlement of Netzarim. As the crowd dispersed in all
directions, Mohammed and his father took shelter behind a concrete block,
approximately 3ft. square. French Channel 2 cameraman, Talal Abu Rahma, who
was positioned only a few meters away from the cowering father and son,
captured the sequence of events on film. The footage, which was broadcast
locally and internationally yesterday, clearly shows the father attempting
to shield his son with his body, while calling and gesturing for the
soldiers to cease firing. Moreover, the footage makes clear that neither
the father, nor his young son, posed any threat whatsoever to the lives of
the Israeli soldiers, an excuse routinely offered by Israeli military
sources when justifying the killing of Palestinian civilians. Disregarding
the father's pleas for help, Israeli military forces shot both the father
and son in cold blood. Three other Palestinians were martyred yesterday as
a result of the indiscriminate firing of the Israeli military forces near
Netzarim settlement.

As of 9am this morning, Israeli military forces have killed 23 Palestinians
since confrontations erupted throughout the Occupied Palestinian
Territories on Thursday, 28 September. This number includes 6 children: 3
from Gaza, 1 from Nablus, 1 from Ramallah, and 1 from Jerusalem, the latter
of whom died yesterday as a result of injuries sustained on Friday. In
addition, over 900 Palestinians have been injured. Of the total wounded, 14
remain in critical condition. According to DCI/PS documentation, no less
than 206 Palestinian children were wounded in yesterday's confrontations
alone.

DCI/PS considers the killing of Mohammed Al-Dura and Bassam Al-Balbisi, and
the serious injury of Jamal Al-Dura, to be crimes of war on the part of the
Israeli military forces. As such, the persons responsible for these
crimes, both the commander giving the order, and the soldiers implementing
the order, should be brought to justice. Consequently, DCI/PS calls for
the following:

1. That an investigation of yesterday's events be launched immediately and
those responsible be brought to justice.
2. That the Israeli government immediately cease its military occupation of
the West Bank, including Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip and put an end to its
brutal use of force against the Palestinian people.
3. That the international community immediately intervene and utilize the
powers at their disposal to fulfill their duty under common article 1, of
the Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons
in Time of War (1949), to respect and ensure respect for the convention in
all circumstances.

-END-



[../global/bottom.shtml]
....................................................


Turkey slams 'Israeli terrorism'


Many Palestinians have been made homeless in the past month
Turkey's prime minister has repeated an accusation that Israel was practising "state terrorism" against Palestinians.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Israelis were persecuting Palestinians just as Jews were persecuted during the Spanish Inquisition 500 years ago.

Israel was "bombing civilians, killing people without any considerations - children, women, the elderly - razing buildings using bulldozers," he said.

Israel has called for "more solidarity" from Turkey, its closest regional ally.

Jews were the victims [in Spain]. Today Palestinians are the victims and the people of Israel are treating Palestinians as they were treated 500 years ago

Recep Tayyip Erdogan
Mr Erdogan was giving his first interview to the Israeli media since he caused dismay in Israel last month by calling its military operations in the southern Gaza town of Rafah "state terrorism".

At the time Israel's foreign ministry issued an unusual rebuke to Ankara, saying his comments were "extremely regrettable" and Turkey, which had also fallen prey to "cruel terrorism", was expected to show "more understanding and solidarity".

But in the interview published in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Thursday, Mr Erdogan said his relationship with Israelis and Jews in general was free of problems and that his criticism was solely directed at the right-wing coalition government of Ariel Sharon.

"We are in favour of the peace process being regenerated, and the government of Israel has not contributed to our efforts to do so," he said.

Close ties

Mr Erdogan stressed that Turks had once "opened their hearts and homes" to Jews who fled from the Inquisition and now they wanted to mediate between Israel and other countries in the Middle East to achieve peace.


Erdogan leads an Islamic-rooted party in Turkey's secular system
But he stood by his earlier accusation that Israel was practising "state terrorism" against Palestinians.

"When you look at the structure of what has happened, how else can you interpret it?" he said.


...........................................
Here is an emotional but accurate enough recounting of the zionist trail of blood:
http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/terrorinbeginningbyisrael.htm

still cant use the ground for a century.

Not true. Japan was nuked by the US during WW II and are using the land that was bombed. I don't think WW II was fought over 100 yrars ago.

Actually...yes all the houses are terrorists. They are either homes to terrorists or the extremely rare illegal housing.

How can you expect the peaceful Israelis to disarm, when all their neighbours want to kill them.

Yup so much claim, that Egypt and Jordan decided to take their land after the war if Independence. Some neighbours they are...

Yep. The extremely peaceful Israeli's...

Who have helicopter gunships, with which they 'assassinate' quadraplegics, a compulsary army, and are the only nation in their area of the world with nuclear weapons, who have been caught TWICE spying on their best ally's Military Intelligence, who have destroyed vessels owned by their best ally, and who are in threat of UN sanctions for building illegal fortifications in the territories of their nearest enemies, who have come in for rebuke from the UN for invading the governmental leaders of another sovereign territory...

No, wait... all this 'peaceful' activity is confusing me... it makes it look like they aren't quite as peaceful as the PR suggests...

Not quite accurate, but close enough, Pressure groups are the ones controlling W, and he is the one that calls the shots in the US. So your point was true, but not the exact truth.

I would like to know the exact truth. ;)

Talking about "Pressure groups" i thought about the diferent one´s. The lobby´s from the oil industrie, the jewish lobby, the Florida lobby....

W even seems to be a puppet in the hand of bigger interests. And from outside (i live in Europe) the last two elections seem to be elections in a banana republic - but not in the USA!

How can it be so difficult to vote in the same nation that reached the moon????

I would like to know the exact truth. ;)

Talking about "Pressure groups" i thought about the diferent one´s. The lobby´s from the oil industrie, the jewish lobby, the Florida lobby....

W even seems to be a puppet in the hand of bigger interests. And from outside (i live in Europe) the last two elections seem to be elections in a banana republic - but not in the USA!

How can it be so difficult to vote in the same nation that reached the moon????

off topic: Please, don´t use this term "banana republic" anymore. As a brazilian, this offends me a little bit. And please, don´t compare our elections to the ones at USA as, in no way, we are in such a depressing level...

USA are the real terrorists, which support one murderer and condemn the next depending on which one licks their asses. Was Arafat a terrorist? Ok, Ariel Sharon is a genocide and he has the full support of your precious nation.

I'm sure this post will be deleted but I can't shut up before this. How can you make any moral judgement when you voted for another genocide (ie, George W. Bush) who is killing thousands of people a day to keep his oil companies pumped up with money?

Come on you terrorist-pointers, take your hypocrites masks off at last.

Not true. Japan was nuked by the US during WW II and are using the land that was bombed. I don't think WW II was fought over 100 yrars ago.

No idiot, the US used ATOMIC BOMBS not nuclear bombs, which are nowhere as powerful and work on a completely different system entirely. They dont produce anywhere near as much radiation. But still residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki suffer from increased cancer risks due to background levels.

If Israel REALLY wanted to broker peace in the Middle East, they would have had Arafat buried in Jerusalem.

To blame Arafat is to ignore half of the problem.

The fact is, Israel have consistently said that Arafat was the barrier to peace - and yet, with Arafat dead AND 'democratic' elections for certain 'local' offices already planned for next month - the LOGICAL choice would have been to say "we will accept Arafat being buried in Jerusalem" (which, let's face it, has been the burial site of millions of non-jews over the years - unless Israel has been secretly 'evicting' non-jewish corpses) - thereby generating a positive atmosphere, immediately before the announcement of a new Palestinian leadership - giving the Palestinians LESS reason to be aggressive toward their perceived enemies, giving the new palestinian leadership LESS ammunition to stir up dissent (if they so choose), making it more likely that the NEXT palestinian/israeli discussions would start on a more civilised footing, AND conceding SOME gesture of Jerusalem to palestine, without actually having to hand over any Jerusalem territory... except for a 6 by 4 hole.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

I guess it's easy to point out how bad the other guys are, and how difficult they are making it...

It's a shame Israel never killed the terrorist while they had the chance.

Arafat was nothing but a terrorist and an obstacle in the peace process, the world is a lot better without him.

It's a shame Israel never killed the terrorist while they had the chance.

Arafat was nothing but a terrorist and an obstacle in the peace process, the world is a lot better without him.

A thought just occured to me....

Maybe they did?

Here is an emotional but accurate enough recounting of the zionist trail of blood:
http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/terrorinbeginningbyisrael.htm
Alkhilafah eh? sounds objective, and please.
Jews=religion
Israelis=Nationality
Zionists=people who believe that Israel is our holy land.

I am not a Zionist. You also appear to be trying to clear the palestinians of all blame.

Who have helicopter gunships, with which they 'assassinate' quadraplegics, a compulsary army, and are the only nation in their area of the world with nuclear weapons, who have been caught TWICE spying on their best ally's Military Intelligence, who have destroyed vessels owned by their best ally, and who are in threat of UN sanctions for building illegal fortifications in the territories of their nearest enemies, who have come in for rebuke from the UN for invading the governmental leaders of another sovereign territory...
Where do I start. The US, Britain, rest of Europe anyone else who has helicopter gunships doesn't mean that they're not peaceful.
The nukes are for self-defence. If they had been for offensive purposes we would have used them by now would we not?
again, compulsary army service is only neccesary because of the ever present threat of terror attacks.
Everybody spies on everybody so don't even try that. Blair was caught listening to Kofi Annan's phone calls, who gives a sh*t?
I already informed you of the truth behind the USS Liberty and its vessel, not vessels.
The UN is extremely anti-Israel, so sanctions don't even bother me in the slightest. 'sides America would veto them.
Again, the UN have issued so many condemnations etc... that nobody even takes them seriously. Least of all Israel.

Why should a man that has admitted to have ordered the killing of atheltes at the olympics in munich, a man that is corrupt and has been using our tax money ment for humanitarian purposes to get a villa, SUV's and fund terrorism get the right to be buried in Jeruzalem (which isn't even historicly a islamic city, which doesn't have a palestinian majority and where he isn't born.)

The palestinian terrorists have been hiding behind innocent palestinians, offcourse then innocents get killed, but like someone else here pointed out, the Israeli Army tries to avoid civilian (innocent) casualties, the PLO wants to kill innocent civilians. Now who's the bad guy here?

Arafat was also a predatory sodomite. Read, for example, Red Horizons, by former head of Romanian intelligence Ion Mihai Pacepa. Arafat's old friend Nicolae Ceasescau (sp?) videotaped Arafat with other men and little boys. Arafat was a close ally- some would say a puppet- of the USSR. He has supported scores of terrorists and totalitarians around the world: the Sandinistas in Nicaragua; the FMLN in El Salvador; the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran; the African National Congress in South Africa; and the Idi Amin regime of Uganda, just to name a few. In addition to the thousands of Jews this monster slaughtered, he also slaughtered many thousands of Christians as well.

[QUOTE=Grave_n_idle]If Israel REALLY wanted to broker peace in the Middle East, they would have had Arafat buried in Jerusalem.


Given that they were quite happy to have "Cap'n" Bob Maxwell buried in Jerusalem, perhaps it should be regarded as an honour to be refused?

Where do I start. The US, Britain, rest of Europe anyone else who has helicopter gunships doesn't mean that they're not peaceful.
The nukes are for self-defence. If they had been for offensive purposes we would have used them by now would we not?
again, compulsary army service is only neccesary because of the ever present threat of terror attacks.
Everybody spies on everybody so don't even try that. Blair was caught listening to Kofi Annan's phone calls, who gives a sh*t?
I already informed you of the truth behind the USS Liberty and its vessel, not vessels.
The UN is extremely anti-Israel, so sanctions don't even bother me in the slightest. 'sides America would veto them.
Again, the UN have issued so many condemnations etc... that nobody even takes them seriously. Least of all Israel.

Lots of people have helicopter gunships... this is true. But, well, let's look at the UK for a second, since you listed them... how many situations can you recall where the UK used helicopter gunships, firing surface-to-air missiles, on civilians? Quadraplegics?

There is a difference between having a resource, and using that resource to murder people. And, while you PERSONALLY may think that the 'assassination' (mockery of the word) was legitimate, the two bodyguards, and the other 4 civilians were murdered. And a further 17 were injured.

The nukes are not for self-defence. That is propoganda. How do you use a nuke for self-defence? Is Israel going to 'nuke' incoming missiles? They are going to 'nuke' the bullets and mortars fired by their neighbours? No - Israel has nukes as a 'deterrant' - to intimidate the neighbour nations not to mess with them. Wouldn't they have used them by now? Has anyone, except for the US?

Compulsary armed service is only needed because of a terrorist threat? Doesn't hold water - the IRA carried out terrorist actions for a considerable period of time, and yet the UK didn't have a compulsary army. Even in the Isolationist US of this decade, the US has a volunteer army.

Also - there is a difference between a politician monitoring phone calls, and one government (Israel) secreting an agent inside another nation's intelligence service (The Pentagon).

Considering your repeated fabrications over the helicopter gunship fatalities - I hardly think you have the moral highground to lecture about USS Liberty?

The UN isn't 'anti-Israel', except that Israel has consistently refused to listen to the UN on issues. Israel makes a mockery of the UN, and you interpret THAT as the UN being anti-Israel?

As you say, in your last point. Israel doesn't take the UN seriously.

[QUOTE=Sanctaphrax]Where do I start. The US, Britain, rest of Europe anyone else who has helicopter gunships doesn't mean that they're not peaceful.


The UK has faced terrorism in Northern Ireland for many years, some would say it still does. But you can bet your life that if the UK had ever used helicopter gunships against the IRA like Israel uses them against Palestinian targets (how about targetting a suspected IRA leader as he is leaving Mass on a Sunday?), we'd have had howls of protest from around the world, and especially the USA.

uh huh. You know why? Because my side is anti-Arafat, and I was meant to show the terrorist some respect. I refused to. Its called standing up for your beliefs.
Your saying that i'm flamebaiting, is in itself flamebaiting because you're trying to provoke a response.

Then I guess you can go ahead and consider this post to be flamebaiting the flamebait of a bona fide flamebaiter, dude.

Anyway, this is just plain lame. You have a heart full of hatred, and I don't.

There, I win.

Why should a man that has admitted to have ordered the killing of atheltes at the olympics in munich, a man that is corrupt and has been using our tax money ment for humanitarian purposes to get a villa, SUV's and fund terrorism get the right to be buried in Jeruzalem (which isn't even historicly a islamic city, which doesn't have a palestinian majority and where he isn't born.)

The palestinian terrorists have been hiding behind innocent palestinians, offcourse then innocents get killed, but like someone else here pointed out, the Israeli Army tries to avoid civilian (innocent) casualties, the PLO wants to kill innocent civilians. Now who's the bad guy here?

Of course it has been historically an Islamic city... maybe it wasn't built by Moslems, originally, but it wasn't left vacant for 2000 years, either.

See, you say 'terrorists', they say 'freedom-fighters'. You say 'murderers', they say 'Partisans'. You say 'insurgents' they say 'rebels against foreign invaders'. Draw the lines where you see fit, but your opponents will always do the same.

When you say Israel has 'tried to avoid civilian casualties'... explain that, please? How is levelling refugee camps with tanks and bulldozers designed to 'avoid civilian casualties'? How is 'assassinating' a QUADRAPLEGIC octagenerian in a wheelchair, with THREE surface-to-air missiles trying to 'avoid civilian casualties'? How is the previous attempt on Yassin's life (dropping bombs on the building they THOUGHT he was in) designed to 'avoid civilian casualties'?

Ultimately, the PLO wants to be rid of what they view as an outside invader, an enemy occupying force. They lack the manpower and resources to 'invade' Israel, and the US would back Israel anyway... so they wage a guerilla war... and that can mean civilians get killed.

My point is... Israel should take the 'Moral Highground'. If they REALLY wanted peace - they would have made a token gesture. They would have welcomed Arafat's corpse with open arms - because he is the death of the old regime, and a possible brighter future with the new regime... and it would have made Israel look GOOD.

Like I said, he wouldn't have been the first non-jew to be buried there - and it would have been a powerful gesture. But, instead, they sent a big 'up-yours' to the next leadership.

Like I say, my opinion.

Let him be...forgotten.hes face will be around...Long after Sharon's face is forgotten...Long after any of his Jewish foes are forgotten

hes face will be around...Long after Sharon's face is forgotten...Long after any of his Jewish foes are forgotten
Quite right - a line of Arafat urinals would keep his face in the place it deserves for a long time to come.

Actually i'm Canadian.A jewish Canadian?

....And you'll always stick up for your fellow Jews, no matter how henious their crimes.
Move back Isarel!
I agree The Bloodshell will never end...Unless Israel Moves back.

Quite right - a line of Arafat urinals would keep his face in the place it deserves for a long time to come.

Wow thats constructive, with attitudes like that both races can blow the fuck out of each other.
We forget how peace loving and moral Sharon is, oh wait he isnt.
Hatred does fuck all, sooner or later you and they will have to swallow their pride and accept co-existance.

Guys, please remember that this isn't are Israel right or wrong but is Arafat a terrorist or not. This is for your feelings towards Arafat. Not Israel. Thanks.Israel is Full of Terrorists...

Israel owes the 'Palestinians' nothing. Arabs, on the other hand, owe the Palestinians dearly. No mention of Jordanian or Egyptian complicity in the plight of the Palestinians, or do you not have sufficient understanding to be able to discuss it? Bear in mind that the vast majority of Jordanians are 'Palestinians'. Jordan offered all Palestinians citizenship before machine gunning them to death in the 1970s. But a chance to indulge in the Arab tradition of Jew hatred is more attractive than the truth, eh?

For a laugh consider this...

After the second world war, the persecuted Palestinian people are gifted a land formally known as Israel, decades later the Palestinians launch an offensive and conquer large areas of what was Israel, confining them to 2 small areas of land and dening them the right to their own state. Over the following years Palestine slowly and surely encrotches on Israel pushing them further and further back. Faced with a much larger enemy with a fully equiped army supported by a much larger foreign power which blocks any attempt by the United Nations to help them. What do they Israelies do?

Well for a start Israel exists ON TOP OF PALESTINE in the 60's the Israelies conqured what territory the Palestinians had. Most of what your spouting is bordering on propaganda.

...
No...Israel isn't responsible. Arafat was responsible.. Hamas is responsible... the terrorists are responsibile..... Its Arafat's Fault... Its Hamas's Fault... Its Osama's Fault... Its Hezbollah's Fault... Its Iraq's Fault... Its Iran's Fault... Its Siria's Fault... Its Europe's Fault...Its UN's Fault... Its UK's Fault...Its America's Fault...

....Its everybody else's Fault but not Israel

Number of Palestinians killed by Israeli troops: 2800
Number of Jews killed by Hitler:6000000
Both of those numbers are pure speculation.

For a laugh consider this...

After the second world war, the persecuted Palestinian people are gifted a land formally known as Israel, decades later the Palestinians launch an offensive and conquer large areas of what was Israel, confining them to 2 small areas of land and dening them the right to their own state. Over the following years Palestine slowly and surely encrotches on Israel pushing them further and further back. Faced with a much larger enemy with a fully equiped army supported by a much larger foreign power which blocks any attempt by the United Nations to help them. What do they Israelies do?

*yawn* a contemptible comparison. Firstly, the Palestinian identity was not invented until the 1960s - Palestine has never existed as a nation state and no record of anyone identifying as a Palestinian exists.

The rest of your 'laugh' makes too little sense to bother with, but the bit about 'a much larger enemy' is especially pathetic.

In every war Israel has fought, they have been enormously outnumbered by armies 'supported by a much larger foreign power which blocks any attempt by the United Nations to help them'. Not only were the Arab genocidal powers who have attempted to eradicate Israel several times formerly backed by the USSR, most of them are, individually, 'much larger foreign powers'.

And Israel has defended the right of Israelis to self determination in their homeland - land continuously inhabited and developed by Jews since before Mohammed was invented, since before islamic fascism, the myth of Palestine and the Arab conquest.

*yawn* a contemptible comparison. Firstly, the Palestinian identity was not invented until the 1960s - Palestine has never existed as a nation state and no record of anyone identifying as a Palestinian exists.

The rest of your 'laugh' makes too little sense to bother with, but the bit about 'a much larger enemy' is especially pathetic.

In every war Israel has fought, they have been enormously outnumbered by armies 'supported by a much larger foreign power which blocks any attempt by the United Nations to help them'.

And Israel has defended the right of Israelis to self determination in their homeland - land continuously inhabited and developed by Jews since before Mohammed was invented, since before islamic fascism, the myth of Palestine and the Arab conquest.


The Israeli army is huge compared to Palestinian miltia.
You are spouting nothing but narrow minded bigoted nonsense.
Yes the Palestinians have commited shocking acts of terror, but the Israelies have commited some detestible acts themseleves.

Though you have steamed in, refuse to take any other point of view so haveing a discussion with you is pointless.

*yawn* a contemptible comparison. Firstly, the Palestinian identity was not invented until the 1960s - Palestine has never existed as a nation state and no record of anyone identifying as a Palestinian exists.

The rest of your 'laugh' makes too little sense to bother with, but the bit about 'a much larger enemy' is especially pathetic.

In every war Israel has fought, they have been enormously outnumbered by armies 'supported by a much larger foreign power which blocks any attempt by the United Nations to help them'.

And Israel has defended the right of Israelis to self determination in their homeland - land continuously inhabited and developed by Jews since before Mohammed was invented, since before islamic fascism, the myth of Palestine and the Arab conquest.

And inhabited by some other poor buggers, first. Until some group wandered in and razed all their cities to the dust, killed all the men, and raped all the women...

Barak actually offered the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem as well.Got a link for that?

Jerusalem is holy to other religions aswell. The orginal plan to have Jersualem an 'International City' separate from the two states is by far the best option.I agree.

The Israeli army is huge compared to Palestinian miltia.
You are spouting nothing but narrow minded bigoted nonsense.
Yes the Palestinians have commited shocking acts of terror, but the Israelies have commited some detestible acts themseleves.
The so called 'Palestinian militia' is armed and funded by almost every Arab regime in the world, but especially Saudi Arabia and Iran (which is Persian, rather than Arab, but pursues a policy line on Israel more extreme than that of the Arab League, if such a thing is possible). Israel is a country of six million people.

Though you have steamed in, refuse to take any other point of view so haveing a discussion with you is pointless.
Oh, OK then... don't, I won't cry.

The so called 'Palestinian militia' is armed and funded by almost every Arab regime in the world, but especially Saudi Arabia and Iran (which is Persian, rather than Arab, but pursues a policy line on Israel more extreme than that of the Arab League). Israel is a country of six million people.
.

And Isreal recieves several billion dollars from the US every year, which also supplies the army etc.

And Isreal recieves several billion dollars from the US every year, which also supplies the army etc.
Egypt receives billions of dollars from the US every year, 'which also supplies the army etc'. Stop vomiting up things you read but don't fully understand.

Proof?

Egypt receives billions of dollars ......I want Bush to stop sending my money to the ME.

For a laugh consider this...

After the second world war, the persecuted Palestinian people are gifted a land formally known as Israel, decades later the Palestinians launch an offensive and conquer large areas of what was Israel, confining them to 2 small areas of land and dening them the right to their own state. Over the following years Palestine slowly and surely encrotches on Israel pushing them further and further back. Faced with a much larger enemy with a fully equiped army supported by a much larger foreign power which blocks any attempt by the United Nations to help them. What do they Israelies do?

The israelis wouldn't commit a single suicide, since it's not the nature of a single jew, nor of the jewish religion, and much less a suicide bombing. Even Much lesser, killing innocent children and elders, like the palestinians do. In fact, the world would probably ignore this fact, as it did in WW2 with a much worse situation, so why should israelis care now anyway? If that hypothetical scenario really happened, the palestinians would probably make a jewish holocaust. (and the rest of the world wouldn't give a single damn)

And Isreal recieves several billion dollars from the US every year, which also supplies the army etc.

And the US recieves all that back from Israel, and more, with research in every field of science, and business.

Besides, how many zionists in america are there? How much do they produce for the US? I bet LOTS. Or, I know. You know.

Proof?


Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.

CS Monitor (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html)

Isreal recieves several billion dollars from the US every year.And the US recieves all that back from Israel, and more, with research in every field of science, and business.
....
Crapola.

....Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.
All Because of Israel....If israel was not created in Arabland(ME)...we would have saved $50 Billion.

http://esdb.cdie.org/cgi-bin2/broker.exe?_service=default&cocode=3ISR+&_program=gbkprogs.report_country_page.sas&x=9&y=19
http://esdb.cdie.org/cgi-bin2/broker.exe?_service=default&cocode=3EGY+&_program=gbkprogs.report_country_page.sas&x=32&y=8

In case anyone's wondering about the validity of the sources, they are linked to from the USAID page, a part of the State Department.

Israel's Total Military and Economic aid : 2,848.0
Egypts Total Military and Economic aid : 2,194.4
In millions, for 2002.

All right, that's enough, sheesh and people wondered why I didn't want Arafat discussed yesterday. Give it a week guys when emotions are not still so high and then come back if you can have a calm discussion on the issue. I don't mean you have to leave NS, I mean leave the whole Arafat/Israel/Palestine issue alone for a while. The flamebait in this thread is enough to choke a freaking horse. Leave it alone, you've all had your say, obviously no one is convincing any one of any thing. It's just getting ugly.

iLock
Stephanie
Game Moderator