NationStates Jolt Archive

What are we Fighting for?

Serious thread here despite the Arlo Guthrie intro. Can anyone tell me what the objective of the current offensive in Iraq is? I read about more Americans dead and am puzzled as to why? I'm sure for every US soldier killed there are 10 or more Iraqi deaths and it all seems so senseless. Saddams gone, an interim government's in power (or so we're led to believe), why don't we pull out? We're not winning any world wide popularity contest by killing people who it can be argued are just defending their homes.

Anybody got a serious answer?

we can't pull out yet. The interm Gov is still unstable. It's power base too weak at the moment. We pull out now, the government will fall and Iraq will really become the nation for Terrorists. We may not be winning the popularity vote, but we have a responsibility there... and we need to see it through.

What are we Fighting for?

Serious thread here despite the Arlo Guthrie intro. Can anyone tell me what the objective of the current offensive in Iraq is? I read about more Americans dead and am puzzled as to why? I'm sure for every US soldier killed there are 10 or more Iraqi deaths and it all seems so senseless. Saddams gone, an interim government's in power (or so we're led to believe), why don't we pull out? We're not winning any world wide popularity contest by killing people who it can be argued are just defending their homes.

Anybody got a serious answer?
The insurgents that the US are fighting in Fallujah are largely (according to some sources) from outside countries and are trying to be seen to be against the US in order to establish themselves as a power in the new country of Iraq. Quite a large percentage of Iraqis are now unhappy with the continued US occupation so any group being seen to stand against them will gain a lot of support.

The US want to try and make sure that whoever takes power in the Iraqi elections has done it by a democratic procedure, just like Georgy did (cough).

See what through? Complete the Americanization of Iraq? Finish killing off anyone who doesn't want a western style government?

You're spouting sound bytes JuNii, you're not giving any real reasons. We can get that crap from Fox news, can you spell it out in plain language?

I think he means see it through until they have a stable, democratic government in Iraq so that they don't just leave and another despot comes to power.

Basically if the USA leaves to early the Iraqis might find themselves in a situation thats even worse than the one they faced under Saddam. Until the government is secure the US has a moral obligation to stay.

See what through? Complete the Americanization of Iraq? Finish killing off anyone who doesn't want a western style government?

You're spouting sound bytes JuNii, you're not giving any real reasons. We can get that crap from Fox news, can you spell it out in plain language?

Oh, I'm sorry, I missunderstood the question. Lets see
Serious thread here despite the Arlo Guthrie intro. Can anyone tell me what the objective of the current offensive in Iraq is? I read about more Americans dead and am puzzled as to why? I'm sure for every US soldier killed there are 10 or more Iraqi deaths and it all seems so senseless. Saddams gone, an interim government's in power (or so we're led to believe), why don't we pull out? We're not winning any world wide popularity contest by killing people who it can be argued are just defending their homes.

Anybody got a serious answer?

No I did not... now what was your Serious Answer again? Oh yeah, I'm repeating sound bytes... what do you propose. Leave now. Just Tell the people "oh sorry for the trouble, you're on your own now." Yeah, like that'll make em happy. by the way, all the news about ONLY the AMERICAN SOLDIERS DEATHS are coming from all the stations, and some of them agree with me. You'll hear that, that is if you watch anything else but what your god, Michael Moore, puts out.

Edited. Sorry, I shouldn't lose my temper like that. St Heliers reply was much better... again I apologize to all those who want a serious discussion.

The insurgents that the US are fighting in Fallujah are largely (according to some sources) from outside countries and are trying to set the Americans back in order to establish themselves as a power in the new country of Iraq.

The US want to try and make sure that whoever takes power in the Iraqi elections has done it by a democratic procedure, just like Georgy did (cough).Still not a sound reason. If there are outsiders there I can't believe it's not without the blessing of the people who live there, sort of like how we had the French help us out in our little spat with England back in 1776. If you're fighting for your home and a cause you believe in, you tend to take whatever help is offered. The more I examine it the more it smells like an attempt to exterminate anyone who might contend the government that America want's to establish there.

I may be off base here but shouldn't the goal be to establish a government the Iraqi's want. Isn't that democracy? Isn't that what we're trying to establish?

But first we have to show them How it works. If after the first election, they re-elect Saddam Hussein, then... well they'll get the government they wanted. and they cannot blame the US for that.

But first we have to show them How it works. If after the first election, they re-elect Saddam Hussein, then... well they'll get the government they wanted. and they cannot blame the US for that.

Do you think we could ever leave Iraq stable enough to hold democratic elections? Barring a 20-30 year occupation and westernization, I don't see Iraqi voters ever being save to cast a vote without American protection.

Oh, I'm sorry, I missunderstood the question. Lets see


No I did not... now what was your Serious Answer again? Oh yeah, I'm repeating sound bytes... what do you propose. Leave now. Just Tell the people "oh sorry for the trouble, you're on your own now." Yeah, like that'll make em happy. by the way, all the news about ONLY the AMERICAN SOLDIERS DEATHS are coming from all the stations, and some of them agree with me. You'll hear that, that is if you watch anything else but what your god, Michael Moore, puts out.

Edited. Sorry, I shouldn't lose my temper like that. St Heliers reply was much better... again I apologize to all those who want a serious discussion.You're still talking the party line and giving no depth, you've even resorted to partisan flames.

We have Iraqi's fighting us and killing our soldiers because they want us to leave. We're staying because, according to you, the government is too unstable. Unstable for what? Too unstable to continue to fight those opposed to it? Do we support a democratic Iraq or don't we? If we do shouldn't we let them work it out themselves? They seem to want to. It might not be condusive to American buisiness interests but it would sure save alot of lives on both sides.

Do you think we could ever leave Iraq stable enough to hold democratic elections? Barring a 20-30 year occupation and westernization, I don't see Iraqi voters ever being save to cast a vote without American protection.We can and they will. After all, Afghanistan had their first election already. Soon I think we'll be pulling outta there.

We can and they will. After all, Afghanistan had their first election already. Soon I think we'll be pulling outta there.
And that election went REALLY smoothly...
Afghanistan is still a fractured country and the government might as well be the government of the city state of Kabul.

You're still talking the party line and giving no depth, you've even resorted to partisan flames.You're the one who accused me of being FOX NEWS, so my opinions mirror theirs (and other news services as well... maybe not Al Jazzeria.) instead of offering your opinions, you attacked mine. let's drop this ok?

We have Iraqi's fighting us and killing our soldiers because they want us to leave. We're staying because, according to you, the government is too unstable. Unstable for what? Too unstable to continue to fight those opposed to it? Do we support a democratic Iraq or don't we? If we do shouldn't we let them work it out themselves? They seem to want to. It might not be condusive to American buisiness interests but it would sure save alot of lives on both sides. and they are... Iraqi soldiers are fighting along side the US forces in Fallujah. Iraqi Police are doing the Majority of the patrols now. More and More Iraqi citizens are volunteering for Police or Military. Soon maybe not this year, maybe not in the next 4 years, but the end of US military being in controll of Iraq is in sight. There is a difference in supporting a Democratic Society and Committing Infantcide due to neglect.


Still not a sound reason. If there are outsiders there I can't believe it's not without the blessing of the people who live there, sort of like how we had the French help us out in our little spat with England back in 1776. If you're fighting for your home and a cause you believe in, you tend to take whatever help is offered. The more I examine it the more it smells like an attempt to exterminate anyone who might contend the government that America want's to establish there.

I may be off base here but shouldn't the goal be to establish a government the Iraqi's want. Isn't that democracy? Isn't that what we're trying to establish? actually, most of the Iraqi hate the outside help. several towns have managed to expell them or point them out to US soldiers. We are trying to establish the government that the Iraqi want and they are helping. We are showing them that they can do this with the Ballot and not the Bullet. realize, now they are trying to talk through their problems. not calling Jihad at every perceived insult. That is improvement.

And that election went REALLY smoothly...
Afghanistan is still a fractured country and the government might as well be the government of the city state of Kabul.Afghanistan is why I don't think the US is honest in it's reasons for aggression in Iraq and believe JuNii a fool for repeating the government line of reasons for it. The Taliban wasn't removed from Afghanistan, They control more of the country today than the "elected" government does. The elections were a joke, there were more registered to vote than there were people eligible to vote. A powerless US puppet was installed to give some legitamacy to the corporate power grab that happened there. The country is in ruins, issues no visas or establishes no consulates, has no control over it's own borders and is controled mostly by opposition clans. But hey, the pipeline is secured by US troops, the important stuff is covered right :rolleyes: .

Afghanistan is why I don't think the US is honest in it's reasons for aggression in Iraq and believe JuNii a fool for repeating the government line of reasons for it. The Taliban wasn't removed from Afghanistan, They control more of the country today than the "elected" government does. The elections were a joke, there were more registered to vote than there were people eligible to vote. A powerless US puppet was installed to give some legitamacy to the corporate power grab that happened there. The country is in ruins, issues no visas or establishes no consulates, has no control over it's own borders and is controled mostly by opposition clans. But hey, the pipeline is secured by US troops, the important stuff is covered right :rolleyes: .

And whats better is that those dirty Chinese will not be able to get their hands on that oil.

What are we Fighting for?

Serious thread here despite the Arlo Guthrie intro.

That's not Arlo Guthrie.


Carry on.

Oh ... and as for a serious answer ... don't ask me, I don't give a damn.

Afghanistan is why I don't think the US is honest in it's reasons for aggression in Iraq and believe JuNii a fool for repeating the government line of reasons for it. The Taliban wasn't removed from Afghanistan, They control more of the country today than the "elected" government does. The elections were a joke, there were more registered to vote than there were people eligible to vote. A powerless US puppet was installed to give some legitamacy to the corporate power grab that happened there. The country is in ruins, issues no visas or establishes no consulates, has no control over it's own borders and is controled mostly by opposition clans. But hey, the pipeline is secured by US troops, the important stuff is covered right :rolleyes: .

That's wrong, the Taliban isn't in control of anything. I suspect you mean the "warlords". Afghanistan is composed of several tribes/clans and it will be a long time before they will accept the notion that being an Afghan is more important than being a Pashtun or whatever.

As for the elections you'll recall that even the independent monitors do not question the legitimacy of the election. If you have information that they did not have access to, I suggest that you try to contact the UN :D

We can't stay, because this looks more and more like Vietnam every day. We can't just up and leave, because then the country would be in shambles as the various opposition groups get all Civil War on the US-backed government.

But wait, there's a third solution. It's not pretty, in fact 90% of Americans will say 'no' and brand me as a traitor instantly, but it's the only way.

We need to negotiate with the insurgents.

They want something. Furthermore, they control weapons, their soldiers, and territory. They have hostages. They're shooting at us! They have lots of things that we want.
We're in the country. We have something they want (which is, for us to leave).
So let's make a deal: We'll leave if these opposition groups agree to recognize the government. We'll invite them to send delegates to the Iraqi Interim Congress (or whatever it's called) even, so they're still included in the government. Clearly they have things to say- it is very unfair of us to completely bar them from their own country's government.

That's not Arlo Guthrie.


Carry on.

Oh ... and as for a serious answer ... don't ask me, I don't give a damn.Yeah, that's Country Joe (MacDonald) and the Fish(Barry Melton)'s Fixin'-to-die Rag.

If we pull out of Iraq now, we leave the country in a worse situation than what it was in when we arrived. Before we arrived, Saddam ruled the country with an iron fist and was very anti-American, meaning we had a major oil-producing country with a government quite unfriendly to America's.

The whole idea is to leave Iraq only when it has an America-friendly government! Bush is a former oil businessman, so is Condoleeza Rice, and it would be ridiculous of them to pull out of a war they started with the goals of ridding Iraq of an evil dictator, freeing the Iraqi people, ridding the country of weapons of mass destruction, punishing the Saddam regime for collaborating with al Qaeda and stabilizing the country's oil market without first making sure they've really succeeded in stabilizing the oil market.

Yeah I was going to point out it was Country Joe McDonald, but you got it in before me...

What are we Fighting for?

Serious thread here despite the Arlo Guthrie intro. Can anyone tell me what the objective of the current offensive in Iraq is? I read about more Americans dead and am puzzled as to why? I'm sure for every US soldier killed there are 10 or more Iraqi deaths and it all seems so senseless. Saddams gone, an interim government's in power (or so we're led to believe), why don't we pull out? We're not winning any world wide popularity contest by killing people who it can be argued are just defending their homes.

Anybody got a serious answer?

First of all military intelligence believes Fallujah to be a staging ground for the terrorist attacks (both on civilians and the military). Taking Fallujah wont stop the insurgency, but it will take away bomb "factories" and such.

IMO what they (the insurgents) are fighting for is power. Zarqawi's group has a short term goal of triggering a sectarian war that would keep the US there for decades. Their long term goal is to turn convert Iraqis (and all Muslims for that matter) to their brand of Islam.

The Iraqi Sunnis are fighting because they don't want to give up their traditional power. They are the minority but they have been in power and oppressing the Iraqi Shiites for at least since Hussein's been in power (for centuries if you let the Shiites tell the story ;) ). Whatever new government comes to power next year, be it secular democracy or theocracy they stand to lose out significantly to the Shiites.

But wait, there's a third solution. It's not pretty, in fact 90% of Americans will say 'no' and brand me as a traitor instantly, but it's the only way.

We need to negotiate with the insurgents.



We tried that and all it did was arm the insurgents heh.

edit: this is sort of why we have a no negotiation policy :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A23409-2002Apr10&notFound=true

It wouldn't be politically correct.

Oh, sorry, I meant mumble mumble WMDs, mumble mumble UN resolutions, mumble mumble making them LIKE us, mumble mumble theres certainly nothing to be gained politically by having foreign wars mumble mumble.

... Anybody got a serious answer?

Here is what I can tell you:

1) The terrorists in Iraq come primarily from Syria. That is where the majority of the former regime members are now, and where most of the recruiting is done. If the fighting was being done by the local populace, there would be a reason for the Coalition to leave immediately, or at least as soon as they could safely get out. It seems, though, that the populace would like their shot at federalism. Personally, I would like to see everyone have the opportunity to choose the kind of regime under which they will live.

2) To throw a bone to the anarchists of the board, there probably is some ego involved. America started this, along with 30 or so other countries, and they are not about to let the world see them capitulate to a bunch of ragged mercenaries and ne'er-do-wells, even if that is how they started out themselves. It isn't the predominant reason, but it is there, none the less.

3) If the Coalition were to withdraw now, the infrastructure of Iraq does not have the stability to continue on it's own. And when the inevitible collapse of services causes a humanitarian emergency, upon whom will the nations of the world depend to put things back in order? And of whom will the UN require the Lion's share of funds and personnell? The nations that currently comprise the Coalition. They might as well stay and save the needless suffering.

That's not Arlo Guthrie.

!"I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die" was Country Joe & the Fish!


Oh ... and as for a serious answer ... don't ask me, I don't give a damn.

And my next stop might very well be Vietnam. :p

Give me an F....

:D

Can anyone tell me what the objective of the current offensive in Iraq is? I read about more Americans dead and am puzzled as to why? I'm sure for every US soldier killed there are 10 or more Iraqi deaths and it all seems so senseless. Saddams gone, an interim government's in power (or so we're led to believe), why don't we pull out? We're not winning any world wide popularity contest by killing people who it can be argued are just defending their homes.

Anybody got a serious answer?

The current offensive in Fallujah is to help put down the insurgency by capturing one of the main operational bases of the various insurgent and terrorist factions, and thus deny it's use to the enemy. The point of that, even if they relocate, is that they will have to start up from new bases. Do that often enough and there won't be anywhere left for the Baathists, terrorists, and random thugs.

As for the interem government, as pointed out above they aren't capable of standing on thier own right now. If we pulled out now, Iraq woul likely splinter into at least 3 squabbling pseudo-states, possibly more. Iraq is at the center of the worlds oil production center. A stable political environment in that region is beneficial to the entire world's economy. (And note that this does not equate to "evil American oil companies want to seize Iraq's oil" as the "no blood for oil" crowd's conspiracy theories might lead one to believe.)

In addition, Iran might very well step in and take part of the country. There is already some evidence that they have a hand in what's going on there - with good reason. If we are bogged down in Iraq, we can't concentrate on bigger problems like Iran and their nuclear partener North Korea.

And. if your question is why are we in Iraq in the first place, then bad intelligence, quite poossibly at the insistence of a president who is pursuing a dangerous foreign policy.

What are we Fighting for?

Serious thread here despite the Arlo Guthrie intro. Can anyone tell me what the objective of the current offensive in Iraq is? I read about more Americans dead and am puzzled as to why? I'm sure for every US soldier killed there are 10 or more Iraqi deaths and it all seems so senseless. Saddams gone, an interim government's in power (or so we're led to believe), why don't we pull out? We're not winning any world wide popularity contest by killing people who it can be argued are just defending their homes.

Anybody got a serious answer?

$$ OIL $$