NationStates Jolt Archive

According the death day of Yasser Arafat, I spent some 'intensive' research on this old, old issue of Israel and Palestine, which I didn't care too much before.

Not that I joined the PLO or even Hamas or something ;-)
But I start to think more and more, that altough the terror and terrible violence and mistakes made by both parties, the moral right is with the Palestine side.

The jew state should return the occupied land - to establish a palestine state that is enabled to live, in fact, allowing its people to develop institutes and economy....

Israel's right of existence is not a question to me, but it's not acceptable for the international community that they build walls and take land while ignoring intl. boarders - this is in fact an annexion.

When was Israel's first land-grab? Hmm? I'll give you hint, it wasn't before they were attacked on all sides by murderous fundamentalists....

http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif

'nuff said.

When was Israel's first land-grab? Hmm? I'll give you hint, it wasn't before they were attacked on all sides by murderous fundamentalists....
1948 ?

The Israelis are more terrorist than any Palestinian Militia.

Since 2000 more than 600 palestian children have been killed, thats no way humane.
And Israel continues to ignore international law,
Now tell me, ho would you feel if your house was taken and you were left with nothing.

The jew state should return the occupied land - to establish a palestine state that is enabled to live, in fact, allowing its people to develop institutes and economy....

Israel's right of existence is not a question to me, but it's not acceptable for the international community that they build walls and take land while ignoring intl. boarders - this is in fact an annexion.
well, Israel had agreed in the past, and could agree in the future, to many proposals that include: return large part of the occupied land(sometimes even eastern jerusalem), and estblished palastine countrey.
palestine refused to whole of them and demanded that all their refugees will back to their homes before Israel was established. and that destroy Israel as jewish-democratic state.
they never accepted to stop the terror, but this no matter, because it's always israel fault, right?
how the morality can be in the side who use terror against the civilians of the other side?

they never accepted to stop the terror, but this no matter, because it's always israel fault, right?
how the morality can be in the side who use terror against the civilians of the other side?


Dont you think its worse when a democratic, developed country kills innocent people who have nothing to do with the conflict.
71% of palestinians dont beleive in suicide bombings, yet Israel still kills hundreds of innocent people.
Killing 600 children in 4 years is unacceptable.

1948 ?
no, that time they attacked us, after they refused to the UN proposal for "two countries to two nations who live side by side in peace and united economy"(quote from UN proposal in 29/11/1947).
and I don't think that now after they attacked us! and loose, we should retreat from all our lands, and gave them to the palastinians.

Dont you think its worse when a democratic, developed country kills innocent people who have nothing to do with the conflict
71% of palestinians dont beleive in suicide bombingsthis is old data, from the time of peace agreement before ten years. the last data I see, from before two months, says that 83% of palastinians do beleive in suicide bombers.
yet Israel still kills hundreds of innocent people.
Killing 600 children in 4 years is unacceptable.
the palastinians send in propose their children to the fire line. they hide in propose terrorists in their home, so IDF can't catch that criminals without harm civilians.
and you forget the big difference: Israel target to the terrorists, and sometimes harm, accidently, the civilians. the palastinians target to the civilians!

Israel was declared on by arab countries, and they won the war in six days.
During the war they took some terrirory for strategic defense.

In real life if you start a war and lose, you can't ask the moderator to make the winner give back the territory that you lost.

Why don't the arab countries give the Palestinians some of their land if they care so much about them?

Israel has offered to return some of the occupied territories in return for a peace agreement, but the Palestinian militants refuse to agree.

Both sides have a right to exist.

this is old data, from the time of peace agreement before ten years. the last data I see, from before two months, says that 83% of palastinians do beleive in suicide bombers.


So the percentage of people believing in suicide bombers went from 29% to 83% in less than 50 years?
I'm not going to dispute whether or not that statistic is correct, but have you considered why such a change of opinion occurred?

Oh, I surely don't know why anyone would come to hate jews in enough timespan to grow children. (http://www.pmw.org.il/schoolbooks.html)

Couldn't be the media, either. (http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part11.html)

I mean, have you seen the harmless TV shows they air for kids over there? (http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm#tar)

Oh, I surely don't know why anyone would come to hate jews in enough timespan to grow children. (http://www.pmw.org.il/schoolbooks.html)

Couldn't be the media, either. (http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part11.html)

I mean, have you seen the harmless TV shows they air for kids over there? (http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm#tar)

I'm sorry, I didn't put my point across very well. What I mean to say is: how does a society deteriorate to the point where popular music videos and school textbooks teach people to hate Israelis? I am *not* blaming Israel for this, but I would like to know what happened to Palestinian society.

Good research, by the way. Most people don't really bother to back up their views. I had no idea that the media in Palestine was like that.

So the percentage of people believing in suicide bombers went from 29% to 83% in less than 50 years?
I'm not going to dispute whether or not that statistic is correct, but have you considered why such a change of opinion occurred?
I'm sure that you don't go to blame Israel on that too, right? because in every area with the world, It's known that war and poorness make radicalness grow, and the hamas who take control on their life with 24 of brain wash, could help that too.

I'm sorry, I didn't put my point across very well. What I mean to say is: how does a society deteriorate to the point where popular music videos and school textbooks teach people to hate Israelis? I am *not* blaming Israel for this, but I would like to know what happened to Palestinian society.

Good research, by the way. Most people don't really bother to back up their views. I had no idea that the media in Palestine was like that.
that media is support by the terrorists, and the radicals on the arab world.

The same way a society starts mass murdering them : the death of democracy!

People aren't allowed to hate Yarafat. They need to direct their anger towards SOMETHING. Who's better suited for being a scapegoat?

It's known that war and poorness make radicalness grow

War, maybe, but the idea that poverty causes terrorism is a myth peddled by the terrorists themselves. In the case of Arab aggression against Israel, the perpetrators are almost exclusively wealthy, educated professionals. The last suicide bombing was carried out by a children's TV celebrity.

Arafat, Bin Laden, Rantissi etc... all rich, from rich families, expensively educated, used to a luxury lifestyle. Poverty doesn't cause terrorism, it's the other way round. The poor would rather have bread or rice than AK47s and explosives, and they'd rather be able to send their own children to school instead of spending millions murdering someone else's.

Why doesn't one of the Arab states give Palestinians some land to start their own nation? The Israelis have offered to give land back and the killing of innocent citizens continues. What some of you don't understand is that there are people who will not stop fighting until Israel is NO MORE and the Jews are NO MORE. Get it...this is about the potential obliteration of an entire people! :headbang:

War, maybe, but the idea that poverty causes terrorism is a myth peddled by the terrorists themselves. In the case of Arab aggression against Israel, the perpetrators are almost exclusively wealthy, educated professionals. The last suicide bombing was carried out by a children's TV celebrity.

Arafat, Bin Laden, Rantissi etc... all rich, from rich families, expensively educated, used to a luxury lifestyle. Poverty doesn't cause terrorism, it's the other way round. The poor would rather have bread or rice than AK47s and explosives, and they'd rather be able to send their own children to school instead of spending millions murdering someone else's.I didn't talk about the terror leaders, I talk about the suiciders who bomb themselves.
how you think the terrorists found them? they go to poor family, and gave them money and honor, in response to their sending their son to make terror attack.

I didn't talk about the terror leaders, I talk about the suiciders who bomb themselves.
how you think the terrorists found them? they go to poor family, and gave them money and honor, in response to their sending their son to make terror attack.

Of course they target poor families! They are exactly the same as the fringe sects in western countries. Groups like the Branch Davidians (Waco) in many western countries target the poor and the homeless because they are disillusioned with society.

The answer to why don't other Arab states help Palestine is simple: They are sacrificing Palestine on principle, to get rid of the Jews. They WANT the Palestineans to bear the brunt of killing innocent Jewish civilians. They WANT to abandon their own Muslim people. I really do feel for the Palestineans. I think it's horribly unfair that they've been abandoned by their own people. But Israel is entitled to her land, and if the Palestineans want to live in harmony with her people, they need to stop the terrorist actions. That the Jews are terrorists is a bunch of bullshit spewed by anti-semites who want an only-muslim section of the world. Now, that theocratic centristic view of things is hundreds of years behind democratically civilized europe, and even the US though we currently are hanging our heads in shame under a Bush. The Muslim world needs to come to terms with the fact that the world is changing and that they need to share the world. Egypt, for one, lives pretty damn peaceably with Israel. Turkey as well. Everyone else shouldn't have to be hit over the head with a clue by four to realize that they're not living up to what true Islamic teachings are. God does not want them to blow themselves up and kill people. There are no virgins waiting for them in the promised land. This isn't going to happen. If they would read the Koran for themselves (which I know many can't) they would know their holy men are feeding them poison from the cradle. Children should not be taught hate with the cereal being put in their mouths. The Israel/Palestine conflict could be solved if the Palestineans would stop teaching their children hate. The Israelis wouldn't have to live in fear of their lives, and you know what? The walls? They're necessary when people are blowing up your family, your tourists. The Palestinean children who are dying are, mostly, doing so because their families are trying to use them as human shields. How barbaric - to value death and hate above the life of your own children. Stop keeping your terrorists with the children. Force Hamas out. Force Hezbollah out. Get em out of the homes of the children. Then the children will not be harmed. The Israeli government has no desire to kill civilians - only terrorists. And shit, they declared the Intafadah, the war. Civiian deaths happen in war. They could END it to end the deaths!

The other countries who are turning a blind eye to their people except to be thrilled that they're there, blowing themselves up daily to get rid of the Jewish "infestation" are barbaric and disgusting as well. How's that for humanitarian aid and helping your brethren? Explain to me why they refuse to help, other than to send terrorist recruits to help kill busloads of schoolchildren and elderly in Israel.

1948 ?


Just how much studying have you done?

I'll say it again, since you are new:

When the Turks lost control of the Middle East at the end of WWI, there were Jews living all over the Middle East. After the Turks left Arabs rose up against the Jews that had been their neighbours for centuries. Jews were driven out, murdered, their properties seized.

Was this a land grab?

Jews had also been living in Palestine for centuries. While the UK and the League of Nations were establishing borders for the various new arab states, Arabs were demanding that there be no land set aside for Jews. The final plan was to devide Palestine proportionally between the Jews and the Arabs, both of whom had been living there. The Arabs continued to block that, and continued to physically attack the Jews, until Israel declared themselves independent, using the borders proposed by the LoN.

That's your "jewish land grab"?

The bottom line is people don't use themselves as human bombs if they have hope and are shown justice. The Palestinians are living under an oppressive occupation and that you can blame Israel for, because it's them who are doing it. Would you prefer to blame some one who isn't doing it?

People always say in a very passive aggressive way "Oh, but I'm sure you will blame Israel for that too" Well maybe people blame Israel for the way they treat the Palestinians because it is their fault.

Israel holds the record for the most UN resolutions passed against them since the inception of the UN. Surprised? No, it's not Iraq it is in fact Israel. Israel has illegally occupied more then just the Palestinians in the last 50 years and have a lot of trouble abiding by the 4th Geneva Convention which they have been told to over and over again by the UN and other International human rights watch dog groups to do. You think Hamas is bad? Bah, they've got nothing on the International crimes of the MOSAD!

Trust me, happy, free people with a chance at a life don't become human bombs. No matter the people, if you're oppressed long enough without hope you will do just about any thing. The despair and hopelessness that most feel that live in what is left of Palestine based on the oppression of Israel can not be expressed in words.

Until Israel stops their oppression of the Palestinian people, either will the human bombs stop. It's really quite sad.

That is my opinion. You don't have to agree with me. I always agree to disagree, but this is what I truely believe.

The bottom line is people don't use themselves as human bombs if they have hope and are shown justice.

The 'I've been reading too much Muslim Brotherhood Propaganda checklist:


Lack of reasoned argument e.g. 'Israel blamed because it's their fault' - check
Bizarre conspiracy rant against unspecified 'crimes' of the Mossad - check
Rich, educated Arab aggressors murdering defenceless Jewish children 'out of desperation' - check
Mention of Arab dominated, non-binding UN resolutions as if they're relevant - check
Invention of 'occupation' in disputed territories - check
Term 'Palestinian people' used as if they are not really Egyptian and Jordanian occupiers of Israeli territory - check
Reference to Israel occupying Polynesians (sic) - erm, this is a new one on me.

The bottom line is people don't use themselves as human bombs if they have hope and are shown justice. The Palestinians are living under an oppressive occupation and that you can blame Israel for, because it's them who are doing it. Would you prefer to blame some one who isn't doing it?


Who's oppressing them now?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/60minutes/main582487.shtml

The bottom line is people don't use themselves as human bombs if they have hope and are shown justice. The Palestinians are living under an oppressive occupation and that you can blame Israel for, because it's them who are doing it. Would you prefer to blame some one who isn't doing it?

People always say in a very passive aggressive way "Oh, but I'm sure you will blame Israel for that too" Well maybe people blame Israel for the way they treat the Palestinians because it is their fault.

Israel holds the record for the most UN resolutions passed against them since the inception of the UN. Surprised? No, it's not Iraq it is in fact Israel. Israel has illegally occupied more then just the Polynesians in the last 50 years and have a lot of trouble abiding by the 4th Geneva Convention which they have been told to over and over again by the UN and other International human rights watch dog groups to do. You think Hamas is bad? Bah, they've got nothing on the International crimes of the MOSAD!

Trust me, happy, free people with a chance at a life don't become human bombs. No matter the people, if you're oppressed long enough without hope you will do just about any thing. The despair and hopelessness that most feel that live in what is left of Palestine based on the oppression of Israel can not be expressed in words.

Until Israel stops their oppression of the Palestinian people, either will the human bombs stop. It's really quite sad.

That is my opinion. You don't have to agree with me. I always agree to disagree, but this is what I truely believe.
but you miss some points:
1-Israel try to solve that in many ways, and the palastinian refused to all. they even don't want to establish a countrey on the borders of 1967, because they want all the land for themselves.
2-the arabs start the terror against Israel even when Israel didn't had a countrey, and even before she take control on the "palastinian autority".
3-when the arabs states contoled the palastinian area they gave them less right and life standarts than israel gave when she take the area.
4-the palstinians refused to stop the terror, even if Israel will back to 1967's borders(the green line)
5-the mosad is exactly like other spy agencies, and I'm sure that the "crimes" he did is like the "crimes" of the CIA,KGB,and others.
6-the Hamas is terror organization who kill hundreds of civilians. how many crimes the mosad "did" that worse than that?
7-the world and the un is always against israel. if they be against the arab they will loose the oil from the arab states.
8-no one tried to solve the problem of the terror against israel himself, but all the ways we try to solve is is "crime against humanity".
9-maybe for a change tried to see the bad thing in the terrorists too, and don't blame only Israel whole the time?
10-you know why they don't had chance in life? because the palastinians leaders investigate all the money the world gave to the palastinians to the terrorists.

The UN has passed countless negative resolutions toward Israel, but we have yet to see it say anything about any dictator.

Your mindset is "If people hate Israel, it's Israel's fault". All right. If 9/11 happened, it's the USA's fault. If you get mugged, and your whole family gets raped, tortured and killed, it's obviously because you had a say in it.
Is this really your point of view?

I already posted this link (http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=conflict&ID=SP39102) and that one as well (http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=conflict&ID=SP42602) about the suicide bombers.

You seem to overtly dodge the issue. It's not "desperation" for most of them, it's a holy aspiration. Shahada is an honor, nowadays, and the PA TV shows do not even try to suggest otherwise. (http://www.pmw.org.il/ASK%20FOR%20DEATH.htm)

Defending a country whose youth is indoctrinated like this can only be based on misinformation or jewish hatred.

Israel has democratic elections. Palestine has none. Yasser Arafat was a terrorist who trained Hamas, remnants of the Khymer Rouge from Cambodia (I may have misspelled that), the IRA, and the people who are giving Russia hell right now. He was a TERRORIST.




He walked away from an offer that would have given Palestine the West Bank. he was not interested in peace. His winning of the Nobel Peace Prize was a mockery to people who have won it before like Nelson Mandela and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



May he burn in hell.



Grand Master Pete

No matter the people, if you're oppressed long enough without hope you will do just about any thing. The despair and hopelessness that most feel that live in what is left of Palestine based on the oppression of Israel can not be expressed in words.


Just one last thing : Talk about oppression to a jew! It's not as if 2000 years of being called jesus-killers, power-hungry plotters, greedy manipulators, 2000 years of countless pogroms, constant emigration and immigration, and a genocide mean anything.

Guess what, after such a long time, most jews still value life more than martyrdom.

/more invalid points to debunk, please

Your mindset is "If people hate Israel, it's Israel's fault". All right. If 9/11 happened, it's the USA's fault.

Tcherbeb is right once again. Of course, many of the same people who say 'If people hate Israel, it's Israel's fault' also spread the lie that 9/11 was the USA's fault, or that it was planned and executed by Bush/the CIA/Mossad, or that all Jews were told not to work in the Twin Towers on that day.

Not to mention the thousands of Palestinians who danced, whooped, ululated and handed out candy when they heard how many civilians had been murdered on 9/11.

Not to mention the thousands of Palestinians who danced, whooped, ululated and handed out candy when they heard how many civilians had been murdered on 9/11.

Didn't CNN later had to correct, that these pictures were faked ? As far I remember, these was a poor and cheap trick. The pictures showed right after the attacks were old and had nothing to do with this current event.

Bizarre conspiracy rant against unspecified 'crimes' of the Mossad - check

I won't respond to every thing you said because most of it is based on opinion, yours vs. mine and I see no point in arguing opinion. I hold a Masters degree in Political Science and if I could just finish my Dissertation, I will hold a Ph.D, so like I said, I won't argue opinions as I see it to be pointless.

Bizarre conspiracy rant? So then to give one simple example so we can get the "conspiracy rant" out of the way.

Mordechai Vanunu worked at Dimona Nuclear Power Plant in Israel from 1976 to 1985 as a technician and learned about Israel's secret production of plutonium for nuclear weapons. In 1985 Vanunu believed it was his responsibility to inform the citizens of Israel as well as the rest of the world that nuclear weapons were being built and stored in Israel.

On October 5, 1986, the London Sunday Times newspaper headlines boldly announced, "Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal." The startling story, based on interviews with Vanunu and the 60 photographs he provided showing Israeli plutonium spheres used for triggers in nuclear warheads, revealed that Israel was fast developing nuclear weapons.

In detail, Vanunu's data showed that Israel possessed over 200 bombs with boosted devices, neutron bombs, F-16 deliverable warheads, and Jericho warheads. The boosted weapons shown in the Vanunu photographs revealed a sophistication that inferred the requirement for testing. Vanunu revealed for the first time the underground plutonium separation facility where Israel was producing 40 kilograms annually, several times more than previous estimates. Photographs showed sophisticated designs which scientific experts say enabled the Israelis to build bombs with as little as 4 kilograms of plutonium. [Source: Farr]

Vanunu never saw the newspaper because five days prior to the release of the story he was lured to Rome and kidnapped there by Israeli secret agents. secret agents = MOSSAD! It might also be worth pointing out to you that Italy never gave Israel permission to go on it's soil to kidnap any one. You see, what Vanunu did he would of easily received political asylum for in just about every country on the planet. Of course there are many other crimes the MOSSAD have committed, I figured that this one was one people might of remembered given it was more high profile. We won't even get into the killing of a Canadian engineer for helping Iraq build a big gun. Assassinations, just also happen to be against international law.

So, now that we've put your "Bizarre conspiracy rant" to bed.. lets move on.


Reference to Israel occupying Polynesians (sic) - erm, this is a new one on me.

So are you saying that Israel never occupied parts of Lebanon? Or that they never tried annexation of Syria's Golan Heights? So the big answer of the day is you're wrong again. Israel has indeed tried to occupy other people and lands besides Palestine.

"You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts!"

I hold a Masters degree in Political Science and if I could just finish my Dissertation, I will hold a Ph.D, so like I said, I won't argue opinions as I see it to be pointless.

So are you saying that Israel never occupied parts of Lebanon? Or that they never tried annexation of Syria's Golan Heights? So the big answer of the day is you're wrong again. Israel has indeed tried to occupy other people and lands besides Palestine.

"You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts!"

It might surprise you to know that you're not the only doctoral candidate in the thread. I intend to submit my thesis early 2005. I have a Masters degree in History, rather than political science, but then I've never found psephology to be particularly pertinent when considering Arab dictatorships. As you will be aware, being intelligent enough to be allowed to pursue a PhD does not preclude one from espousing imbecilic opinions.

Anyway, with the if-you-show-me-yours out of the way, I'll point out that Lebanon is currently occupied by Syria, and all the states you mentioned attempted to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. But I fail to see how self-defence justifies the daily aggression and genocidal hatred of the Arab world against Jews in general and Israel specifically.

and p.s., admit that 'Polynesians' was a rant-typo, unless you're suggesting that the Mossad have secretly invaded Easter Island.

secret agents = MOSSAD! It might also be worth pointing out to you that Italy never gave Israel permission to go on it's soil to kidnap any one. You see, what Vanunu did he would of easily received political asylum for in just about every country on the planet. Of course there are many other crimes the MOSSAD have committed, I figured that this one was one people might of remembered given it was more high profile. We won't even get into the killing of a Canadian engineer for helping Iraq build a big gun. Assassinations, just also happen to be against international law. for Israel va'anunu is a criminal for that he gave secret facts on israel that will bring him to jail in most of the states in the world. and I really don't see when the part who say that they worse than the Hamas who is terror organizion had contect to the
story.

So are you saying that Israel never occupied parts of Lebanon? Or that they never tried annexation of Syria's Golan Heights? So the big answer of the day is you're wrong again. Israel has indeed tried to occupy other people and lands besides Palestine.

"You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts!"
Israel never occupied Lebanon, Syria did. israel only conquer some areas for fight in the terror.
but why you forgot that Syria occupied Lebanon, put there more than 100,000 soldiers, and use their dolls goverment in lebanon for their interests? or the fact that Syria make Lebanon center for terror organizations like the hizbula with support of Iran and Al-qaida?

Didn't CNN later had to correct, that these pictures were faked ? As far I remember, these was a poor and cheap trick. The pictures showed right after the attacks were old and had nothing to do with this current event.
No, they were not faked, despite the smear attempt to present them as faked. Anyway, the CNN pics were the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4030

and p.s., admit that 'Polynesians' was a rant-typo

I never said "Polynesians" you did, I was only quoting you.

for Israel va'anunu is a criminal for that he gave secret facts on israel that will bring him to jail in most of the states in the world.

To which he would of received easily political asylum, the fact that the MOSSAD illegally kidnapped him from foreign soil made it a crime.

Israel never occupied Lebanon, Syria did. israel only conquer some areas for fight in the terror

Res 279 (May 12, 70): Demanded withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.

Res 280 (May 19, 70): Condemned Israeli attacks against Lebanon.

Res 285 (Sep 5, 70): Demanded immediate Israeli troop withdrawal from Lebanon.

Res 313 (Aug 8, 72): Demanded Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.

Res 316 (June 26, 72): Condemned Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.

Res 317 (July 21, 72): Deplored Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted from Lebanon.

Res 332 (Apr 21, 73): Condemned Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.

Res 337 (Aug 15, 73): Condemned Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.

Res 347 (Apr 24, 74): Condemned Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Res 425 (Mar 19, 78 ) : Called on Israel to withdraw its forces unconditionally from Lebanon.

Res 427 (May 3, 78 ) : Called on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.

es 450 (June 14, 79): Called on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.

Res 471 (June 5, 80): Expressed deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Res 497 (Dec 17, 81): Decided Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demanded that Israel rescind its decision forthwith.

Res 498 (Dec 18, 81): Called on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

Res 501 (Feb 25, 82): Called on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.

Res 508 (June 6, 82): Demanded Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and un-conditionally from Lebanon.


The list goes on. I am aware that Syria is now occupying Lebanon. However if you look at the above resolutions if that's not a sort of occupation, I'm not sure what one would call it.

Israel has illegally occupied more then just the Polynesians in the last 50 years.
so how you claim that?

Res 279 (May 12, 70): Demanded withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.

Res 280 (May 19, 70): Condemned Israeli attacks against Lebanon.

Res 285 (Sep 5, 70): Demanded immediate Israeli troop withdrawal from Lebanon.

Res 313 (Aug 8, 72): Demanded Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.

Res 316 (June 26, 72): Condemned Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.

Res 317 (July 21, 72): Deplored Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted from Lebanon.

Res 332 (Apr 21, 73): Condemned Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.

Res 337 (Aug 15, 73): Condemned Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.

Res 347 (Apr 24, 74): Condemned Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Res 425 (Mar 19, 78 ) : Called on Israel to withdraw its forces unconditionally from Lebanon.

Res 427 (May 3, 78 ) : Called on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.

es 450 (June 14, 79): Called on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.

Res 471 (June 5, 80): Expressed deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Res 497 (Dec 17, 81): Decided Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demanded that Israel rescind its decision forthwith.

Res 498 (Dec 18, 81): Called on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

Res 501 (Feb 25, 82): Called on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.

Res 508 (June 6, 82): Demanded Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and un-conditionally from Lebanon.


The list goes on. I am aware that Syria is now occupying Lebanon. However if you look at the above resolutions if that's not a sort of occupation, I'm not sure what one would call it.very weird, if you think on the fact that Israel conquer Lebanon only at 82!
and the UN is always against Israel because of the reasons I said before.

so how you claim that?

Oh darn, you're right, my bad, head must of been else where..lol sorry about that. I obviously meant "Palestinians" ;)

very weird, if you think on the fact that Israel conquer Lebanon only at 82!
and the UN is always against Israel because of the reasons I said before.

You may look up the resolutions if you wish, they are all there. I have provided the # and the dates.

So, you would have us believe that the UN just made up all this stuff? I mean you can't with a straight face really believe they just made it up.. come on! :rolleyes:

Soo, why exactly was Israel in Lebanon? (or am I just being facetious? :D )

Soo, why exactly was Israel in Lebanon? (or am I just being facetious? :D )

A revolt by the PLO against the Jordanian government led to their expulsion from Jordan in 1970. PLO fighters streamed into Lebanon and turned it into a base for attacks on Israel. The Syrians entered Lebanon beginning in 1976 ostensibly to protect the Christians and the fragile Lebanese multi-ethnic multi-religious constitution, but in fact, in realization of Syrian claims to Lebanon as part of Greater Syria. An Israeli invasion in 1982 resulted in expulsion of the PLO from Lebanon to Tunis. The invasion was the initiative of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, who had decided to smash the power of the PLO. However, the war aroused furor in Israel as the army exceeded the official war aims. On September 14, 1982, the Lebanese President-elect, Bashir Gemayel, an Israeli ally, was killed by a large bomb that was apparently planted by Syrian intelligence. Ostensibly to maintain order, the Israeli government decided to move into West Beirut, and sent their Lebanese Phalangist Christian allies into the Sabra and Shatilla Palestinian refugee camps. The Phalangists committed a massacre in Sabra and Shatilla, killing about 700 people and exciting the wrath of the international community as well as the Israeli public. An Israeli commission of inquiry led by judge Kahan indirectly implicated Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and several others in the massacres, noting that they could have foreseen the possibility of the violence and acted to prevent it. The Kahan report resulted in the resignation of Sharon as defense minister. Israel subsequently extricated itself slowly from Lebanon, but the war had created a fanatic Shi'ite anti-Israel terror group in Lebanon, the Hizbolla. As Israel withdrew, Lebanon became essentially a satellite of Syria.

Source (http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm)

So, you would have us believe that the UN just made up all this stuff? I mean you can't with a straight face really believe they just made it up.. come on! :rolleyes:

No, but the UN is not a fair arbiter, and you can't represent history in terms of UN resolutions with any accuracy. UN resolutions are frequently brought against Israel by partisan Arab states who wish to further their own expansionist foreign policies. One of the reasons Israel took military action against Lebanon was that Arafat and the PLO were launching military attacks against Israel from Lebanon, with the knowledge and support of the Arab world.

p.s. I was only teasing about the 'Polynesian' thing, I knew what you meant.

Israel never occupied Lebanon, Syria did. israel only conquer some areas for fight in the terror.
but why you forgot that Syria occupied Lebanon, put there more than 100,000 soldiers, and use their dolls goverment in lebanon for their interests? or the fact that Syria make Lebanon center for terror organizations like the hizbula with support of Iran and Al-qaida?
Israel never occupided Lenanon?!? WTF!
Did you ever hear about the Shabra and Shatilla massacres? Refugee camps in Lebanon, surrounded by Israeli army, christian militias sent into murder 2,000 palestinian refugees? Does that ring a bell? No of course not.

Israel never occupided Lenanon?!? WTF!
Did you ever hear about the Shabra and Shatilla massacres? Refugee camps in Lebanon, surrounded by Israeli army, christian militias sent into murder 2,000 palestinian refugees? Does that ring a bell? No of course not.
I thought we were approaching a more sophisticated level of argument here, but obviously not.

No Israeli has ever been found to bear responsibility for what happened Shabra and Shatila, despite the oft-quoted assumption that it could have been prevented by Israel. No-one ever mentions the complicity of the PLO, which was using the camps as military bases. When you read about a 'Palestinian refugee camp', don't think 'tents', think 'bomb factories'.

The whole thing has subsequently become a crypto-mythical cause for Arab nationalists and their sympathisers, held up like a talisman and chanted like a mantra, without anyone having the vaguest idea of how far they've been brainwashed by propaganda.

I see that you still dodge my posts, Stephistan.

Could it be that... GASP! You can only abide by UN resolutions? :D

And about Mordechai Vanaunu, the hypocrisy surrounding this story is not only staggering, it is also a good show of antisemitism.

Oh yeah, because tomorrow, if some canadian revealed and sold the information that, in fact, his own country is armed with nukes because it is surrounded by terrorist states whose first objective is eradicating all of its inhabitants, if that civilian told the press classified information, waving SECRET DEFENSE papers all around, he WOULD CERTAINLY BE HAILED AS A FREE-THINKING HERO, BUT NOT A CRIMINAL GUILTY OF TREASON IN TIMES OF WAR!

...

Anyways. Facts. Let's get them straight, shall we?


Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning an Arab country for human rights violations: 0

Percentage of U.N. Commission on Human Rights resolutions condemning Israel for human rights violations: 26

Number of U.N. Security Council resolutions on the Middle East between 1948 and 1991: 175

Number of these resolutions against Israel: 97

Number of these resolutions against an Arab state: 4

Number of Arab countries that have been members of the U.N. Security Council: 16

Number of times Israel has been a member of the U.N. Security Council: 0

Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning Israel: 322

Number of U.N. General Assembly resolutions condemning an Arab country: 0


By Jove! Could it be that... *GASP AGAIN* !
The UN *might* be biased?

Naaaah... We ALL know how democratic Iran, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Algeria, Afghanistan, and the other 20 or so Charia-abiding states are such angels!

Fact : Seems like 100% of antisemites are antizionists as well!

Palestine- The right way of things

Palestine- The right way of things
In their curuptness, terror supporting, "democracy", or just because their careness for human rights?

I see that you still dodge my posts, Stephistan.

Sorry, what post did I dodge? Please point it out and I will address it. :)

This one (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7461566&postcount=27) , that one (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7461619&postcount=29) , and, there you go again! (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7462954&postcount=47)

GOOD TIMES!

I thought we were approaching a more sophisticated level of argument here, but obviously not.

No Israeli has ever been found to bear responsibility for what happened Shabra and Shatila, despite the oft-quoted assumption that it could have been prevented by Israel. No-one ever mentions the complicity of the PLO, which was using the camps as military bases. When you read about a 'Palestinian refugee camp', don't think 'tents', think 'bomb factories'.

The whole thing has subsequently become a crypto-mythical cause for Arab nationalists and their sympathisers, held up like a talisman and chanted like a mantra, without anyone having the vaguest idea of how far they've been brainwashed by propaganda.

The Shabra and Shitla massacre was the fault of the Israeli military, Sharon was found personally responsible by an Israeli special comission.

Estimates of the number killed range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence. Palestinians claim 3,000 to 3,500 dead and call the action "genocide".

When the scale of the massacre became known and photographs of the bodies in the refugee camps began to be published in the world press, Israel was held directly responsible for the atrocity. The Israeli public was shocked. On September 25, a huge demonstration of 300,000 Israelis was held in Tel Aviv demanding the resignation of Prime Minister Menahem Begin and Sharon and the establishment of a judicial commission of inquiry to investigate the massacre.

A commission was appointed to investigate, headed by Supreme Court President Yitzhak Kahan, and its members included Supreme Court Justice Aharon Barak and Major General (Res.) Yona Efrat. The Kahan Commission issued its report on February 8, 1983. With regard to Sharon, the panel recommended that he:

* ... draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office" - in other words, that he resign; or, if necessary, that the prime minister exercise his authority to remove a minister from office.

The key paragraphs relating to Sharon's responsibility are these:

* In our view, the minister of defense made a grave mistake when he ignored the danger of acts of revenge and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population in the refugee camps ... It is our view that responsibility is to be imputed to the minister of defense for having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps, and having failed to take this danger into account when he decided to move the Phalangists into the camps.

* In addition, responsibility is to be imputed to the minister of defense for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps. These blunders constitute the non-fulfillment of a duty with which the defense minister was charged.

Former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said of the Kahan Commission:

* [It was] a great tribute to Israeli democracy... There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode.

Former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said of the Kahan Commission:

* [It was] a great tribute to Israeli democracy... There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode.

Now show me any palestinian condoning any shameful act instead of wailing "allah akbar! I hope my 3 other sons blow themselves up as well!"
Isreal's "crime" was in fact "looking the other way" when the christian phalangists exacted what could be described as utterly understandable revenge on an indiscriminate group after suffering oppression. Well hot damn, people die in wars! Call the press!

Israel cannot stress enough the importance of avoiding civilians during shootings. But Hamas "activists" as the friendly media calls them use them as meat shields. Send kids against fully armed soldiers.

Now tell me, would YOU send YOUR child to throw stones at a GI, or even allow him to wander outside during a military operation? Would you glorify suicide bombing?

For ANY reason?

Now show me any palestinian condoning any shameful act instead of wailing "allah akbar! I hope my 3 other sons blow themselves up as well!"
Isreal's "crime" was in fact "looking the other way" when the christian phalangists exacted what could be described as utterly understandable revenge on an indiscriminate group after suffering oppression. Well hot damn, people die in wars! Call the press!

Israel cannot stress enough the importance of avoiding civilians during shootings. But Hamas "activists" as the friendly media calls them use them as meat shields. Send kids against fully armed soldiers.

Now tell me, would YOU send YOUR child to throw stones at a GI, or even allow him to wander outside during a military operation? Would you glorify suicide bombing?

For ANY reason?

We'll here is an article I found on the AP from last year where Mahmoud Abbas now head of the PLO unconditionally renounces terrorism. Does the head of the PLO count as someone who will condem terrorism?

"Hot damn people die in wars call the press!" What the fuck is that? The Israeli army surrrounded the refugee camps with tanks so nobody could escape and stood by while everyone inside was killed, now the man responsible is Prime Minister of your enlightened Israel which in your words "cannot stress enough the importance of avoiding civilians during shootings." More than twice as many people were killed there than the number of Jews killed durring the entire 3 year long intifada.

Wed, June 4, 2003
Palestinians renounce terrorism
By TOM RAUM
# Bush meets with Sharon, Abbas


AQABA, Jordan (AP) - The new Palestinian leader on Wednesday renounced all terrorism against Israel, a crucial step sought by President George W. Bush as he brought the two sides together in a bid to advance Middle East peace.

"We repeat our denunciation and renunciation of terrorism against the Israelis wherever they might be," Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas said, standing at a podium alongside Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Abbas also promised to "act vigorously" against incitement and hatred against Israel, including using Palestinian security forces.

Abbas, calling such violence inconsistent with Palestinians' Islamic faith and the establishment of an independent state they have long sought, also pledged to end "the militarization of the intefadeh."

"The armed infefadeh must end and we must use and resort to peaceful means in our quest to end the occupation and suffering of Palestinians and Israelis," he said.

Sharon said abandoning incitement, as Abbas pledged to do, is crucial. "There can be no peace" without it, he said.

Sharon says Israel will begin to remove unauthorized settlements.

He said his government understands "the importance of territorial contiguity" in the West Bank, a key demand of Palestinians.

The leaders, accompanied by their host, King Abdullah II of Jordan, walked toward the cameras across a bridge especially built for the occasion.

He called Wednesday's three-way meeting between Bush, Sharon and Abbas a step toward fulfilling "a dream of peace, prosperity, coexistence and reconciliation" for the entire Mideast region.

We'll here is an article I found on the AP from last year where Mahmoud Abbas now head of the PLO unconditionally renounces terrorism. Does the head of the PLO count as someone who will condem terrorism?

More than twice as many people were killed there than the number of Jews killed durring the entire 3 year long intifada.



I'm waiting for that one to happen. I sincerely hope that the next dictator.. erm, head of state will crack down on his troops (especially the armed branch of Fatah, arafat's party!), as they better realize that doesn't serve their interests.

As for the victim count, it's erroneous at best. Among the victims are counted the suicide bombers, armed milicians, and terrorists! Palestinian warriors target mostly civilians! Should this turn into an actual "mine is longer than yours" contest?

I'm waiting for that one to happen. I sincerely hope that the next dictator.. erm, head of state will crack down on his troops (especially the armed branch of Fatah, arafat's party!), as they better realize that doesn't serve their interests.

As for the victim count, it's erroneous at best. Among the victims are counted the suicide bombers, armed milicians, and terrorists! Palestinian warriors target mostly civilians! Should this turn into an actual "mine is longer than yours" contest?

Explain to me how peace has or will serve the Palestinians interests then. After Oslo, Israel promised to stop settlement building and yet since then the number of settlers has doubled. If the palestinians immediately somehow managed to stop all violence would the settlers be like "Great now that terrorism has stopped we can stop confiscating land and move back to internationally recognized boarders." Somehow I don't see it.

Look I actually don't think violence helps the Palestinians but peace has not worked either. The core problem here is settlments, look at any map they are all over the West Bank. Unless most are removed a Palestinian state is impossible. Unless the Palestinians get a state the violence won't stop. The Palestinians are not going to settle for being a permanently stateless people living in overcrowed non contiguous cantons seperated by Israeli settlements and military outposts.

Explain to me how peace has or will serve the Palestinians interests then.
During the nightmare of the Egyptian sadist Arafat, peace was impossible as Arafat's cult of personality depended upon his significance as a military figure. He perpetuated conflict to consolidate his dominance over his subjects.

After Arafat, peace would serve the Palestinian interest because before the intifada, the Palestinians had the highest standard of living in the Arab world. Arafat whittled this away into nothing, into the poverty in which the majority of Palestinians now live. During this time he built up a personal fortune of roughly 4.6 billion (billion, not million) US dollars, stolen from the mouths of 'his people'.

Things couldn't possibly get any worse for the Palestinians than under Arafat. Mahmoud Abbas, his successor as leader as the PLO, has shown promise as a leader and negotiator. Ignore the fact that he wrote his doctoral thesis based on the denial of the holocaust, ingorance isn't high on the list of negatives when it comes to Palestinian crimes. Peace is what Palestinian claim to want - now Arafat is no longer there to deny them, lets hope they find it through reason and agreement.

Dont you think its worse when a democratic, developed country kills innocent people who have nothing to do with the conflict.
71% of palestinians dont beleive in suicide bombings, yet Israel still kills hundreds of innocent people.
Killing 600 children in 4 years is unacceptable.
71% claim they don't. There is a definite question of reliability when it comes to surveys like that.

A private suite in a French Military Hospital's Intensive Care Ward. Mr. Hamas, in high dudgeon, is addressing the French Doctor in charge.

Mr. Hamas: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this Arafat what I visited in this very French hospital...

M. Le Docteur: Oh yes, the, uh, the Arafat... What's,uh... What's wrong with him?

Mr. Hamas: I'll tell you what's wrong with him, my lad. 'E's dead, and I can't get anyone to sign this terrorist payroll, that's what's wrong with him!

M. Le Docteur: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Mr. Hamas: Look, Froggy, I know a dead Arafat when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

M. Le Docteur: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable Arafat, the Arafat, idn'it, ay? Beautiful headgear, manly face stubble! A right shiny fellow once you get past the facial lesions.

Mr. Hamas: The face stubble don't enter into it. He's stone dead.

M. Le Docteur: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!

Mr. Hamas: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the bed) 'Ello, Mister Arafat! I've got a lovely fresh bribe from Jacques Chirac

and a tasty meat patty for you if you show...

(M. Le Docteur hits the cage)

M. Le Docteur: There, he moved!

Mr. Hamas: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!

M. Le Docteur: I never!!

Mr. Hamas: Yes, you did!

M. Le Docteur: I never, never did anything...

Mr. Hamas: (yelling and hitting the cage repeatedly) 'ELLO ARAFAT!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!

(Takes Arafat out of the bed and thumps his head on the counter. Throws him up in the air and watches him plummet to the floor.)

Mr. Hamas: Now that's what I call a dead Arafat.

M. Le Docteur: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!

Mr. Hamas: STUNNED?!?

M. Le Docteur: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Arafats stun easily, major.

Mr. Hamas: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That Arafat is definitely deceased, and when I checked him in here a few days ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged effort to erase the state of Isreal and all Jews from the face of the Earth.

M. Le Docteur: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.

Im happy someone here now about the sabra and shatila massacre, over 3000 people were killed, more than september 11, wat makes it worse is that a democratic country commited it, yet no one has even heard of it.

Read this page, it shows most of the Israeli Massacres, then tell me, who are the real victims.
http://www.sis.gov.eg/ismassacre/english/html/main.htm

Im happy someone here now about the sabra and shatila massacre, over 3000 people were killed, more than september 11, wat makes it worse is that a democratic country commited it, yet no one has even heard of it.

Read this page, it shows most of the Israeli Massacres, then tell me, who are the real victims.
http://www.sis.gov.eg/ismassacre/english/html/main.htm
All of the above 'massacres' are myths and fascist Muslim Brotherhood propaganda - the kicker is Jenin. Even the Arab dominated UN was forced to admit that no 'massacre' of any kind took place.

The real point is that less Palestinian civilians would be killed if the Arab terrorists stopped using them as human shields on a routine basis, literally holding children in front of them as they fire over their heads.

The bottom line is people don't use themselves as human bombs if they have hope and are shown justice. The Palestinians are living under an oppressive occupation and that you can blame Israel for, because it's them who are doing it. Would you prefer to blame some one who isn't doing it?

People always say in a very passive aggressive way "Oh, but I'm sure you will blame Israel for that too" Well maybe people blame Israel for the way they treat the Palestinians because it is their fault.

Israel holds the record for the most UN resolutions passed against them since the inception of the UN. Surprised? No, it's not Iraq it is in fact Israel. Israel has illegally occupied more then just the Palestinians in the last 50 years and have a lot of trouble abiding by the 4th Geneva Convention which they have been told to over and over again by the UN and other International human rights watch dog groups to do. You think Hamas is bad? Bah, they've got nothing on the International crimes of the MOSAD!

Trust me, happy, free people with a chance at a life don't become human bombs. No matter the people, if you're oppressed long enough without hope you will do just about any thing. The despair and hopelessness that most feel that live in what is left of Palestine based on the oppression of Israel can not be expressed in words.

Until Israel stops their oppression of the Palestinian people, either will the human bombs stop. It's really quite sad.

That is my opinion. You don't have to agree with me. I always agree to disagree, but this is what I truely believe.

Actually, the bottom line is people don't use themselves as human bombs if they have respect for human life. The leaders of Hammas, et al, have always wanted nothing less than to utterly destroy Israel and kill as many Jews as they can. They want unilateral "justice", which means they want all the land and they don't want any Jews living anywhere in "their" part of the world. The only grievences that they care about are their own, and their regard for human life is so meagre that they teach palestinian children that G-d wants them to die in killing the children of their enemies.

Has Israel always been just? Certainly not. But what the OPEC-ass-kissers of the UN have to say about it doesn't concern me one bit. The Palestinians have only the terrorists to blame for the continuance of their suffering, and in as much as they do nothing about them, themselves.

Agreeing to disagree...

The Palestinians have only the terrorists to blame for the continuance of their suffering, and in as much as they do nothing about them, themselves.
The Palestinians could stop the terror and try to get peace agreement. If they only forget from their wish to back to their homes before the establishment of Israel, They could get almost all their other wishes.
Their are more than 3 agreements that go to the final stage, and the palastinian failed, because one detail or two.
but terror it's never way to "blame for your problem", Terror is un-legitimete weapon.

How anyone can possibly defend people who love their children less than they hate jews is beyond me.

I'm out for the WE!

Shabbat Shalom to ALL of you ! (yes, even the ones who wish us dead!)

Maybe Israel should take a lesson from Jordan in terms of how to respond to terrorism without inspiring more terrorism, UN sanctions, or both.

What Israel does now is, when some suicide bomber blows himself up, they demolish his relatives' houses. This of course inspires more terrorism.

What Jordan does is they round up his relatives and execute them all. This not only does not inspire more terrorism, it doesn't get them UN sanctions either.

So Israel would be doing a lot better if they took a lesson from democratic, freedom-and-justice-loving Jordan. :)

Maybe Israel should take a lesson from Jordan in terms of how to respond to terrorism without inspiring more terrorism, UN sanctions, or both.

What Israel does now is, when some suicide bomber blows himself up, they demolish his relatives' houses. This of course inspires more terrorism.

What Jordan does is they round up his relatives and execute them all. This not only does not inspire more terrorism, it doesn't get them UN sanctions either.

So Israel would be doing a lot better if they took a lesson from democratic, freedom-and-justice-loving Jordan. :)
maybe it will be better to take lesson from usa:if some one shot you from a city, you bomb the city kill almost everyone, get in with tanks and ruined all the homes.
maybe that didn't inspire the terror, but at last we don't had someone to fight with and the UN don't give us sanctions, if he didn't gave to USA. ;)

Now tell me, ho would you feel if your house was taken and you were left with nothing.

Much less left with nothing, rather your whole family being killed as well as your house being buldozered on grounds that you're some kind of threat - true or not what threat does a Palestinian family hold to the state of Isreal? Exactly as much threat as the whole of Palestine - fuck all.

Whatsmore, already Arafat is being reported as some kind of arbitrary terrorist whose only aim was to be a thorn in the side of Isreal, I think not, the poor bastard wasnt a saint but only two days after his death he's said to have stood in the way of the process...so we have a newly re-appointed, 'unifying' George Bush, his chum Ariel Sharon, and open ground to give Palestinians the raw deal they are sure to be given. Sad as it is I hope they fight on...

See this is some thing I don't get about religious people. All the big three, Jews, Christians and Islamics all believe in the exact same God. Why should Jews have the right to J'lem when it's not even them who believe in Jesus, so if we go by bible books here, then technically it should go to Christians. I mean fighting over religion has got to be one of the stupidest things ever. All these people fighting over some thing that may just turn out to not be true at all any way. Silliness, down right silliness.

Thats exactly what i think bring back the 4 Christian kingdoms of the holy land.I never understood why there isnt a chrisitian nation in Jerusalem.
People sasy oh the majority of people in jerusalem are Jew so why would we give any to someone else well it was in arab hands for 1000 years so the jews only popped back in in the last 50

UN giveth UN taketh away
play nice or youll lose your toys

In case you're wondering, any Jew, Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist can visit Jerusalem, NOT JUST JEWS. And also, Jerusalem was mentioned in the Old testament hundreds of years before Jesus
And this one fails to understand Jesus is God.

.
People sasy oh the majority of people in jerusalem are Jew so why would we give any to someone else well it was in arab hands for 1000 years so the jews only popped back in in the last 50

Jerusalem never was in arabs hand except 20 years between 1948 to 1967. before that the arabs states didn't exict so they can control that area. in all that years live in jerusalms jews, muslims, and christians, but the area was controlled by empires that conquored the area.

It seems that every time Israel has said it is about to turn over some land, the very next thing they do, within the same 24 hour span, is send helicopter gunships and tanks into some settlement and tear it up.

Hypocrites.

It seems that every time Israel has said it is about to turn over some land, the very next thing they do, within the same 24 hour span, is send helicopter gunships and tanks into some settlement and tear it up.

Hypocrites.
maybe because when israel say she want peace, the Hamas who is against the peace explode bus in Israel?

So Israel would be doing a lot better if they took a lesson from democratic, freedom-and-justice-loving Jordan. :)
Ah, but you forget the UN's basic rule: Arabs can do no wrong, Jews can do no right. ;)

Jerusalem never was in arabs hand except 20 years between 1948 to 1967. before that the arabs states didn't exict so they can control that area. in all that years live in jerusalms jews, muslims, and christians, but the area was controlled by empires that conquored the area.

Thats too bad for you ever heard of the Crusades?
Turns out the Arabs did have The Holy land
Turns out the Turks got it
Turns out British subjects got it
Turns out British made the middle east
turns out they made Israel
Arab hostilities were going on against jews in 20's and 30's too

BUT
You cant say Arabs didnt own Jerusalem

Thats too bad for you ever heard of the Crusades?
Turns out the Arabs did have The Holy land
Turns out the Turks got it
Turns out British subjects got it
Turns out British made the middle east
turns out they made Israel
Arab hostilities were going on against jews in 20's and 30's too

BUT
You cant say Arabs didnt own Jerusalem
I know the arabs controled the area before some hundreds of years, but the arabs states never control jerusalem, except the 20 years I said already.
and if you start told me history facts, why don't we just go out and gave the greeks their ancient empire again?

if you think on that you see, that Israel are the only one who take that land in peacful way, and not in wars like all the others. and don't tell me about the areas we conquored in wars: first, that was after we already been there, and second, we had attacked and win in those wars.

I think he means that in the last several hundred years, there was no sovereign country controlling whats now Israel, only empires..

Trust me, happy, free people with a chance at a life don't become human bombs.

That is my opinion. You don't have to agree with me. I always agree to disagree, but this is what I truely believe.

Then how do you explain the 9/11 hijackers? Many of them came from affluent families, they were educated, and by all accounts had very nice "chances at life". Not every terrorist can be explained away by an appeal to the old "oppression breeds nihilism" argument.

There's also the significant issue that attempting to find an explanation or cause for a certain behavior does not equate to sanctioning or CONDONING this behavior. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that is not what you're trying to do here (although if you'd be so kind as to clarify, I'd greatly appreciate it).

The Shabra and Shitla massacre was the fault of the Israeli military, Sharon was found personally responsible by an Israeli special comission.

He was found indirectly responsible. One could debate whether "indirectly responsible" and "personally responsible" are the same. Perhaps there's some sort of Ven-diagram thing going on.

9/11 is the fault of the Islam, I don't want to be discriminatory (but hell, I prefer the unpleasant truth above a unpleasant lie) but the Islam is very backward, Islamics are much more fundamentel and while we stopped doing crusades/jihads long ago, they are still doing it. While we had the Life of Brian a couple of decades ago, which pretty much insulted christianity (or at least made fun of it) and none of the makers got killed, here in the Netherlands already 2 people that criticized the islam have been killed (yes one was killed by a commie left winger, however he wanted to come up for those poor muslims or something,) another 2 or on a death-list.

The Jews have the right to live in Israel, just like everybody else. If the Palestinians want a Palestinian state they can go to Jordan....no wait Israel is much richer (through hard work) so they want to go there.

Then how do you explain the 9/11 hijackers?
Or the two British Jihad-nazis who travelled to Israel to carry out a suicide bombing.

They were both from well off British immigrant families. One of them was University educated. Neither had ever been to Israel or the disputed territories before.

So they went to Israel, had tea with the ISM, strapped on dynamite belts and tried to murder a bar full of civilians - one succeeded, the other ran and washed up dead on a beach.

They didn't go out of desperation. The only reason they went is that they hated Jews - and they had been taught that murder is an Islamic duty and that the screams of the innocent delight Allah.