NationStates Jolt Archive

In Los Angeles, anti-war protesters there have expressed shock after two military tanks appeared at a small anti-war demonstration Tuesday night. [See Video Shot by LA Indymedia] The tanks drove by the protesters, went around the block and then stopped directly next to the scene of the protest in front of the Westwood Federal Building. The Los Angles Police Department claimed the tanks belonged to the National Guard and just happened to be driving by the scene of the protest. The National Guard denied the tanks were theirs but said they might have been Marine tanks. Earlier this week, the Washington Post reported that as many as 4,000 combat troops may be deployed to the streets of Washington during the inauguration of President Bush in January.
www.democracynow.org

lmao, Wonderful

hes not even sworn in yet and already hes using the military in a police capacity?

hes not even sworn in yet and already hes using the military in a police capacity?
Well, seeing as he is the current President it is well within his power to do so, even though by doing so one could argue he is stifling the right of free speech.

it's funny... only DemocracyNOW.org has the story. You'll think that US Tanks squaring off against US Citizens would be plastered on every news stations... Including FOX news.... Funny only one Anti-Bush/Anti-Republican website has this article, with no pictures (ok I saw one of tank operators but no indication of location.) Can anyone find other sources to this "disturbing NEWS" story? if so, please post.

*chuckles* Yeah, you're right. Did you also hear that we stole the election from you Democrats again? HAHAHAHAHA! Not only am I comfortable saying this in public (well, as public as this is) but I know you'll never figure out how we rigged Ohio. When you do find out, let me know so I can tell you if you're right, heh. You think Florida 2000 was bad? That was just a test. Ohio 2004 was our biggest victory and there's nothing you can do to prove we stole it. Even though we did! hahahahahah!

*continues to encourage conspiracy theories about how exit polls were right and the actual voting was wrong*

Veteran's Day might have something to do with it? Perhaps the tanks were en route to a parade or something of that nature?

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/tank.jpeg

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php

Veteran's Day might have something to do with it? Perhaps the tanks were en route to a parade or something of that nature?

Wow, that's downright logical!

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/tank.jpeg


Apart from the fact that they aren't technically tanks, but rather Infantry Fighting Vehicles...

Wow, that's downright logical!

though suspicious, given that it was on tuesday evening

Wow, that's downright logical!
Except the story seems to indicate that this happened Tuesday....

though suspicious, given that it was on tuesday evening
Oh sure, be faster with that....see if I care......sniffle.....

Apart from the fact that they aren't technically tanks, but rather Infantry Fighting Vehicles...

you say potato, i say big ass thing with treads and a cannon. oh, let's call the whole thing off.

Bush sends in Tanks in response to LA antiwar protest

Let's go and see what the horse's mouth actually has to say before we engage in reckless speculation about who ordered what IFVs to go where for whatever reason, why not?

"I have no idea why they were there, and neither did anyone else that I asked."

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php

Oh sure, be faster with that....see if I care......sniffle.....

i am freesovdar, the winnernator!

Let's go and see what the horse's mouth actually has to say before we engage in reckless speculation about who ordered what IFVs to go where for whatever reason, why not?

"I have no idea why they were there, and neither did anyone else that I asked."

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php
All politicians lie. If they didn't, they wouldn't get elected.

Let's go and see what the horse's mouth actually has to say before we engage in reckless speculation about who ordered what IFVs to go where for whatever reason, why not?

"I have no idea why they were there, and neither did anyone else that I asked."

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php
You're more comfortable with that? Really? That no one seems to know what the tanks, sorry-trucks with guns that carry other people with guns, whatever you feel like calling them...-where doing? That someone just 'took 'em for a spin?' You'd like to settle on that? Are you sure?

All politicians lie. If they didn't, they wouldn't get elected.

I'm not disputing what you say, but do we actually have any evidence that Bush or whoever purposefully sent these vehicles in response to the protest?

Why is it that this isn't in quasi-news but on forums.

Except the story seems to indicate that this happened Tuesday....

Bah! Details!

I'm not disputing what you say, but do we actually have any evidence that Bush or whoever purposefully sent these vehicles in response to the protest?
Nope. But somebody had to be sending them somewhere, unless these guys went MIA with government equipment, and it doesn't seem like they went anywhere except to the protest. I could be wrong, of course.

You're more comfortable with that? Really? That no one seems to know what the tanks, sorry-trucks with guns that carry other people with guns, whatever you feel like calling them...-where doing? That someone just 'took 'em for a spin?' You'd like to settle on that? Are you sure?

I'm not familiar with how often one would see military vehicles on the roads or freeways of the US, certainly in my part of the UK (Northern Ireland) an encounter with an armoured personel carrier is not entirely unknown.

I'm not disputing what you say, but do we actually have any evidence that Bush or whoever purposefully sent these vehicles in response to the protest?

Lets ask a diff. question. What possible good would it do Bush to send them? The website that himself that it encouraged them.

Nope. But somebody had to be sending them somewhere, unless these guys went MIA with government equipment, and it doesn't seem like they went anywhere except to the protest.

"The tanks then proceeded to turn right onto Veteran and disappeared from view."

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php

I'm not familiar with how often one would see military vehicles on the roads or freeways of the US, certainly in my part of the UK (Northern Ireland) an encounter with an armoured personel carrier is not entirely unknown.

not too often, unless they are travelling in a large group from base a to base b

"The tanks then proceeded to turn right onto Veteran and disappeared from view."

http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php
Like I said, I could be wrong.

Quote from http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118943.php

This story is the same as for part 1:

Despite the one-day notice, about 400-500 people came to the Westwood Federal Building on Tuesday night to protest the start of the second U.S. attack on the people of Fallujah, which had been officially launched on the previous day. To my own recollection, this is a record number for a demonstration called on such short notice.

As usual for such short-notice demonstrations at this location, most of the group stood on the sidewalk along Wilshire Blvd. waving signs and shouting to oncoming commuters in cars and buses, who frequently expressed their support by shouting and blowing their horns, and (much, much less frequently) expressed opposition. Smaller groups were stationed on each of the other three corners of the Wilshire and Veteran intersection, and as the lights changed some of these groups would parade across the intersection, making themselves still more visible to traffic.

About 7:30pm, two tanks barreled past going East on Wilshire, rounded the corner onto Veteran going South, and disappeared.

About ten or fifteen minutes later, two tanks (apparently the same ones) appeared again going East on Wilshire and stopped for the light there. Demonstrators immediately stepped in front of the lead tank, blocking its path, and started to chant "U.S. Out!" at the soldiers, whose heads and torsos were clearly visible and who evidently exchanged a few words with protestors.

The soldiers seemed amused and not really unfriendly. Unfortunately, a few of our protestors chanted "murderers!" at the soldiers, although in general I think we were more sophisticated than that, realizing that many soldiers are victims themselves who were recruited through propaganda, guile, and economic incentives that the very poor can find it difficult to refuse.

I have no idea why they were there, and neither did anyone else that I asked.

Both tanks were surrounded on three sides by protestors for about three or four minutes until the LAPD showed up and placed themselves between tanks and protestors, and cleared the protestors who were blocking the front tank out of the road. I did not witness any brutality as this occurred, nor am I aware of any arrests having been made.

The tanks then proceeded to turn right onto Veteran and disappeared from view.

Our protest continued following this incident. If sending tanks driving by was meant to intimidate us, it definitely did not succeed, and in fact had the opposite effect.

Thus, we citizens of conscience in Los Angeles have joined people around the world in expressing our public opposition to a U.S. policy of dealing death and mayhem to the citizens of Iraq in general and to those of Fallujah in particular.


Doesn't look like that the "tanks" were there to stop anything. infact, they stopped at the light (like any law abiding citizen would do,) and as the writer admits they (protesters) stepped infront of the tanks, surrounded them, and verbally abused them. Doesn't sound like the tanks did anything wrong. Perhaps they were lost, or maybe drawn to the crowd. but there is no indication that they were 'sent' there outside of the writers speculation. the fact that the police came, indicates that the poor soldiers were not expecing this confrontation. IMHO, it's the protesters who overreacted... this time.

Yes! Score one for freedom of speech!

Local politicians don't know what the tanks were doing there? PLAUSABLE DENIABILITY WINS AGAIN!!

man...how come i havent heard of this...i dont recall it being on the news in the morning this week...so i'd have to say they were just travelling from base to base...i've been seeing several military vehicles travelling on the freeways probably just from base to base...

Yes! Score one for freedom of speech!

Local politicians don't know what the tanks were doing there? PLAUSABLE DENIABILITY WINS AGAIN!!

Since when have local politicians been able to give orders to US marines?

The Los Angles Police Department claimed the tanks belonged to the National Guard and just happened to be driving by the scene of the protest. The National Guard denied the tanks were theirs but said they might have been Marine tanks.

Well, if what you claim is true, then Bush was not behind the deployment of the tanks. If the National Guard was deployed, then the Governor of the state in question was responsible for giving the order.

It's very possible that it was a bunch of disgruntled soldiers acting on their own. The vid seems to be oddly clean. If these were anti-war protesters and then a couple of IFV's suddenly showed up you would think that there would be more reaction than just a couple of them standing in front of them. The video guy also never gets close enough to properly see any insignia on the uniforms. There's something about the whole deal that seems really suspicious and just strikes me as out of place.


Despite the one-day notice, about 400-500 people came to the Westwood Federal Building on Tuesday night to protest the start of the second U.S. attack on the people of Fallujah, which had been officially launched on the previous day. To my own recollection, this is a record number for a demonstration called on such short notice.

As usual for such short-notice demonstrations at this location, most of the group stood on the sidewalk along Wilshire Blvd. waving signs and shouting to oncoming commuters in cars and buses, who frequently expressed their support by shouting and blowing their horns, and (much, much less frequently) expressed opposition. Smaller groups were stationed on each of the other three corners of the Wilshire and Veteran intersection, and as the lights changed some of these groups would parade across the intersection, making themselves still more visible to traffic.

About 7:30pm, two tanks barreled past going East on Wilshire, rounded the corner onto Veteran going South, and disappeared.

About ten or fifteen minutes later, two tanks (apparently the same ones) appeared again going East on Wilshire and stopped for the light there. Demonstrators immediately stepped in front of the lead tank, blocking its path, and started to chant "U.S. Out!" at the soldiers, whose heads and torsos were clearly visible and who evidently exchanged a few words with protestors.

The soldiers seemed amused and not really unfriendly. Unfortunately, a few of our protestors chanted "murderers!" at the soldiers, although in general I think we were more sophisticated than that, realizing that many soldiers are victims themselves who were recruited through propaganda, guile, and economic incentives that the very poor can find it difficult to refuse.


I personally think they were on legit business and decided to take a "detour" just to piss the protesters off.

It's very possible that it was a bunch of disgruntled soldiers acting on their own. The vid seems to be oddly clean. If these were anti-war protesters and then a couple of IFV's suddenly showed up you would think that there would be more reaction than just a couple of them standing in front of them. The video guy also never gets close enough to properly see any insignia on the uniforms. There's something about the whole deal that seems really suspicious and just strikes me as out of place.

I personally think they were on legit business and decided to take a "detour" just to piss the protesters off.Possibly... tho they were polite and not unfriendly... even when being called Murders. I think they just got lost. after all, it was short notice protest/demonstration after all and if the Higher ups knew, I think they would have made sure that no Military Personnel would be there to 'throw gasoline on the fire.' This article was better written than the one on Democracynow.org.

First off, I was not at the protest, but I do live in LA and I am very familar with the Westwood/West LA area.

There are no military bases around that immediate area. However, there is the Federal Building. About half a mile across the road is UCLA.

The area is always crowded with tourists, college students, buisness people, ect. Also, about a mile down on Wilshire Blvd are multi-million dollar hi-rise condos. It is very unlikely large military vehicles would be in such an area. There is no place to store them (except possibly underneath the Federal Building or the small Los Angeles Airforce Base and other goverment buildings near LA International Airport, about 15 miles away.)

It would be hard to think of another reason why the military vehicles would be in the area. We have no major bases in the area and Westwood is an extremely densely populated and affluent area, so the vehicles shouldn't be there in the first place.

It is sad how some of the protestors called the troops murders. While I too believe this war is wrong, it's not the troops I dispise, rather, it's the policy.

Well, seeing as he is the current President it is well within his power to do so, even though by doing so one could argue he is stifling the right of free speech.
The use of military forces for domestic policing is illegal. Acording to the article they took no such action.

Here in LMDC territory the troops pulled out after election day. I guess the administration now feels we are safe since they won.

First off, I was not at the protest, but I do live in LA and I am very familar with the Westwood/West LA area.

There are no military bases around that immediate area. However, there is the Federal Building. About half a mile across the road is UCLA.

The area is always crowded with tourists, college students, buisness people, ect. Also, about a mile down on Wilshire Blvd are multi-million dollar hi-rise condos. It is very unlikely large military vehicles would be in such an area. There is no place to store them (except possibly underneath the Federal Building or the small Los Angeles Airforce Base and other goverment buildings near LA International Airport, about 15 miles away.)

It would be hard to think of another reason why the military vehicles would be in the area. We have no major bases in the area and Westwood is an extremely densely populated and affluent area, so the vehicles shouldn't be there in the first place.

It is sad how some of the protestors called the troops murders. While I too believe this war is wrong, it's not the troops I dispise, rather, it's the policy.

there's a national guard base in san fernando valley...near birmingham high...i think...somewhere near balboa...

there's a national guard base in san fernando valley...near birmingham high...i think...

Hmmm, must be deep in the Valley, that part I'm not too familar with. However, both LA Airforce Base and the National Guard Base would have to send their vehicles through extremely crowded freeways (take the 101 to the 405.) Again, this would make driving any military vehicle very difficult because of 24-7 dense traffic, residential neighboorhoods, and the Sepluvida Pass, a pretty steep climb and downgrade.

Edit: If it's in Balboa, then it's out of the area I know. Hehe, hard to navigate a county or city the size of Los Angeles

Hmmm, must be deep in the Valley, that part I'm not too familar with. However, both LA Airforce Base and the National Guard Base would have to send their vehicles through extremely crowded freeways (take the 101 to the 405.) Again, this would make driving any military vehicle very difficult because of 24-7 dense traffic, residential neighboorhoods, and the Sepluvida Pass, a pretty steep climb and downgrade.

Edit: If it's in Balboa, then it's out of the area I know. Hehe, hard to navigate a county or city the size of Los Angeles

but at that time of night...it's not that crowded...and they wouldnt leave during rush hour...and mind you...it get really empty past 8ish

i dont really know much about wilshire blvd...i'd get lost...im mainly stuck in the valley...

the base isnt that "deep" in the valley...close to encino and right next to the freeway...

That particular area is crowded almost all the time. It's a major road, which is has an offramp to a major freeway, and again, it's a pretty big buisness/cultural/political center with UCLA, several buisnesses and the Federal Building there.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118896

Isn't GW just soo nefarious and diabolical.

Veteran's Day might have something to do with it? Perhaps the tanks were en route to a parade or something of that nature?

Logic has no place on this forum. Go back from whence you came, demon!

In Los Angeles, anti-war protesters there have expressed shock after two military tanks appeared at a small anti-war demonstration Tuesday night. [See Video Shot by LA Indymedia] The tanks drove by the protesters, went around the block and then stopped directly next to the scene of the protest in front of the Westwood Federal Building. The Los Angles Police Department claimed the tanks belonged to the National Guard and just happened to be driving by the scene of the protest. The National Guard denied the tanks were theirs but said they might have been Marine tanks. Earlier this week, the Washington Post reported that as many as 4,000 combat troops may be deployed to the streets of Washington during the inauguration of President Bush in January.
www.democracynow.org


YES - THAAAAAAATS RIGHT!
After full concideration of all the issues and facts - the Democratict process has determined that YEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAW is valid foreign policy! But - That's not all! Now its good domestic policy too!

You decided, no? BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND - PRESIDENT DUMBASS! DUMB DUMB DE DUMB, DUMB DE DUMB ,DUMB DE DUMB DUMB :headbang:

those were definitly Marines, not the coast guard. The camoflauge is a dead give-a-way, my siter lives on veteran avenue down in westwood, so i'll ask her if she noticed anything

Well, seeing as he is the current President it is well within his power to do so

See the Posse Comitatus law of 1878

From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress....

If those IFVs ("tanks") were passing through the city, you'd think they would ttry to avoid a attention of anti-war protesters by staying out of site.

See the Posse Comitatus law of 1878

From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress....

that may be true, but what about the patriot act?

In Los Angeles, anti-war protesters there have expressed shock after two military tanks appeared at a small anti-war demonstration Tuesday night. [See Video Shot by LA Indymedia] The tanks drove by the protesters, went around the block and then stopped directly next to the scene of the protest in front of the Westwood Federal Building. The Los Angles Police Department claimed the tanks belonged to the National Guard and just happened to be driving by the scene of the protest. The National Guard denied the tanks were theirs but said they might have been Marine tanks. Earlier this week, the Washington Post reported that as many as 4,000 combat troops may be deployed to the streets of Washington during the inauguration of President Bush in January.
www.democracynow.org
Hell, If I'd pissed off as many of the screaming, radical, violent, "great unwashed" as President Bush has, I'd want a bit of protection too! Hehehe! :D

If those IFVs ("tanks") were passing through the city, you'd think they would ttry to avoid a attention of anti-war protesters by staying out of site.
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/1...ment.php#118896 That's from the SAME site.

it's funny... only DemocracyNOW.org has the story. You'll think that US Tanks squaring off against US Citizens would be plastered on every news stations... Including FOX news.... Funny only one Anti-Bush/Anti-Republican website has this article, with no pictures (ok I saw one of tank operators but no indication of location.) Can anyone find other sources to this "disturbing NEWS" story? if so, please post.

Negative. I heard this from other sources as well.

Care to give me a link from an actual news site?

I can't find it on NYT, BBC, MSNBC, FOX or CNN.

Which means it is just yet another piece of blog trying to be news.

Here, I'll start one:
I'm sitting at my desk across from Grand Central Station in NYC. RIGHT NOW Hillary Clinton is outside holding a "Nuke Cheney!" placard!! :D

No pics of the "tanks" firing on the protesters? Did Bush go limp-wristed pinko liberal on us? :confused: :D

Were they lost? Because the tank crews look very confused at points. They also seem to be asking directions in one of the pics.

Rather amusing that these tanks which were sent to suppress the protesters didn't do anything remotely menacing, is it not? Isn't odd that these oppressive soldiers were confronted by the protesters (as opposed to confronting the protesters)? Further, why would a group sent out to suppress the protesters need local police to intercede on their behalf?

I'm sorry if I'm not buying any of this, but this whole thing seems rather implausible by your interpretation.

that may be true, but what about the patriot act?

The patriot act has nothing to do with the use of the army in protests. There are a lot of misconceptions about the Patriot act. Did you know that all the Pat. Act did was to give the government the same power with terrorism charges that it had with drug charges since the seventies and eighties? Yeah, they actually cut out pieces of text dealing with drugs and replaced them with text dealing with terrorism.

Rather amusing that these tanks which were sent to suppress the protesters didn't do anything remotely menacing, is it not? Isn't odd that these oppressive soldiers were confronted by the protesters (as opposed to confronting the protesters)? Further, why would a group sent out to suppress the protesters need local police to intercede on their behalf?

I'm sorry if I'm not buying any of this, but this whole thing seems rather implausible by your interpretation.
agreed

Congratulations on successfully making the transition from democracy to police state.

Feel more secure now?

Handcuffs all 'round, barkeep.

LMAO

though suspicious, given that it was on tuesday eveningWell, given Veteran's Day was Thursday, they'd probably want to get them where they needed to be the day before, and at an hour with less traffic. The armed forces don't strike me as the type to rush the job the night before.

Logic has no place on this forum. Go back from whence you came, demon!Ooh! I'm in General! I'm terribly sorry, I must have made a wrong turn somewhere. :D

You know I read a claim that public education utterly fails at teaching students to "think, reason or analyze". Since I myself am a product of public education I was offended by it, but after my time here and on the internet in general I have to grudgingly agree with it. Apparently it's a universal truth and not just true in America. :D

Well, seeing as he is the current President it is well within his power to do so, even though by doing so one could argue he is stifling the right of free speech.
he doesnt have this power--its a violation of posse comitatus

it's funny... only DemocracyNOW.org has the story. You'll think that US Tanks squaring off against US Citizens would be plastered on every news stations... Including FOX news.... Funny only one Anti-Bush/Anti-Republican website has this article, with no pictures (ok I saw one of tank operators but no indication of location.) Can anyone find other sources to this "disturbing NEWS" story? if so, please post.

http://www.boingboing.net/2004/11/10/video...s_at_antiw.html

DemocracyNOW is almost a coocoo as indymedia

*chuckles* Yeah, you're right. Did you also hear that we stole the election from you Democrats again? HAHAHAHAHA! Not only am I comfortable saying this in public (well, as public as this is) but I know you'll never figure out how we rigged Ohio. When you do find out, let me know so I can tell you if you're right, heh. You think Florida 2000 was bad? That was just a test. Ohio 2004 was our biggest victory and there's nothing you can do to prove we stole it. Even though we did! hahahahahah!

*continues to encourage conspiracy theories about how exit polls were right and the actual voting was wrong*
I know the FBI/Homeland Security used a fake terrorist report to close a poll in one Ohio county and they cleared all the election monitors out of the room while they rigged the blackbox voting machine

I'm not disputing what you say, but do we actually have any evidence that Bush or whoever purposefully sent these vehicles in response to the protest?
yes because Bush is a wannabe Dictator--we all know this

Why is it that this isn't in quasi-news but on forums.
because the rightwing corporate media is utterly useless

...only DemocracyNOW.org has the story. You'll think that US Tanks squaring off against US Citizens would be plastered on every news stations...Im not surprised...

Yes! Score one for freedom of speech!

Local politicians don't know what the tanks were doing there? PLAUSABLE DENIABILITY WINS AGAIN!!
Actually they may have gotten lost on the way to a tank parade--but it was perfectly logical for the protesters to assume the tanks were sent to initmidate them--the protesters didnt overreact at all

Care to give me a link from an actual news site?

I can't find it on NYT, BBC, MSNBC, FOX or CNN.

Which means it is just yet another piece of blog trying to be news.

Here, I'll start one:
I'm sitting at my desk across from Grand Central Station in NYC. RIGHT NOW Hillary Clinton is outside holding a "Nuke Cheney!" placard!! :D
blogs are a better source of news than the establishment propaganda your trying to elevate

Well, given Veteran's Day was Thursday, they'd probably want to get them where they needed to be the day before, and at an hour with less traffic. The armed forces don't strike me as the type to rush the job the night before.

Ooh! I'm in General! I'm terribly sorry, I must have made a wrong turn somewhere. :D
I think the tanks were on the way to some veterans day event and took a wrong turn and ended up in the middle of an antiwar protest

I personally don't think the tanks were there to intimidate protestors in any way. Back in the 1960's they used Riot Control Squads and i believe thats still what they use today if they want to intimidate you (with a little teargas for a present). Anyways remember Tiananmen Square in China? Yea, thats what tanks are used for. They are not used to just sit there, they would've opened fire on the crowd if they were there for intimidation.

Apart from the fact that they aren't technically tanks, but rather Infantry Fighting Vehicles...
says who?

DemocracyNOW is almost a coocoo as indymediaIraq war "news".... If Indymedia and CNN do not report the same way....Who do I give the benefice of the Doubt?

Iraq war "news".... If Indymedia and CNN do not report the same way....Who do I give the benefice of the Doubt?
Indymedia---CNN is owned by the Beast

"Those Generals who can act without the interference of the rulers of their country (politician) are victorious." -Sun Tzu
I think that goes for popular support as well.

I believe U.S. citizens who're against the war need to get a grip and support the troops, not change views but try not and inspire a sense of waste among the young lads and lasses in Iraq.
Telling someone their sacrifice was pointless isn't exactly good for the fabric of society.

eh, just a few cents
(I'll 'a sleep so I can't answer... anyho I went off-topic so... g'night')