NationStates Jolt Archive

...believing in God.

Obviously, this is only applicable to those who believe in God. What is the all-time number one reason that you believe there is a God? Have you had different number one reasons at different points in your life? If so, what made them change?

And please, folks, this is a personal and individual question. It is okay to discuss other people's answers, but please don't attack them on a personal level...that is just plain rude, and will make me sad. I know nobody wants to make Bottle sad.

I don't believe in God, but I thought that uncaused cause was fairly convincing for a while. It doesn't work though.

I don't believe in God, but I thought that uncaused cause was fairly convincing for a while. It doesn't work though.
oooh, that's a good idea, now that you think of it...

for those who do not believe in God, what do you think is the MOST CONVINCING argument in favor of God-belief? even if you don't completely buy it, what do you think is the strongest argument in favor of God's existence?

Hope. To put it briefly. The hope that there is a better existence than what we have here on Earth, the hope that life serves a purpose beyond simple survival, the hope that Death does not have the final say over life, and the hope that, no matter what other people may think of us, that there is someone who loves us and will forgive us, if we are penitent.

Okay, I'm slow. Written above is my top reason for believing in God, but that's not my best argument in favor of Gods existence.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Hope. To put it briefly. The hope that there is a better existence than what we have here on Earth, the hope that life serves a purpose beyond simple survival, the hope that Death does not have the final say over life, and the hope that, no matter what other people may think of us, that there is someone who loves us and will forgive us, if we are penitent.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
wow. now THAT makes Bottle sad. you don't feel like our existence on Earth is good enough? you don't feel that your life has purpose (beyond survival) unless there is a God? you don't believe that our experiences and our influence can extend beyond our physical life? you don't believe that there is somebody who will love and forgive you, no matter what?

zounds. if i felt the way you do i probably would turn to God, too...that sounds really rough.

I know someone will be an a$$h0l3 about this one.
I thought back over my life some time while considering why I believed in God(since my life was not going the way I had wanted)
When it suddenly occured to me that every single time I have ever earnestly said a prayer, with honest humility and desperate need, that I have recieved precisely what I have asked for, precisely.
Now I know people say pray for money or pray for world peace or what ever.
I dont believe it works that way-I am not sayying it cant work that, I am saying I dont believe it does.
So I cant.
However, I simply ask for proof of God, and bang, there it was.
And every time I ask, bang it is there again.
So I have no other alternative then believe.
Sounds stupid to someone who doesnt believe I suppose.

I know someone will be an a$$h0l3 about this one.

i hope not. i would like to think that people can act like adults and not be unduly rude to one another. barring that, i like to think that the mods will quickly nuke anybody who gets out of line :P.


Sounds stupid to someone who doesnt believe I suppose.
i will admit, it doesn't make much sense to me. but i also can't understand why some people think that bellbottoms look cool. just because i don't understand something doesn't mean that it is necessarily bad or stupid...my intelligence is quite limited, you see.

I was just discussing Atheists with a co-worker.
I mentioned how in my life I have always felt God,
If I was 18 and sleeping with some guys lonely wife down the street-no lie, I felt bad, not for the guy, but for disappointing God.
When I am cutting my lawn, I feel and think of God.
I was once told I have a very Native American way of praticing my Christianity because I carry God with me all the time, I try to have my religion be life-rather then my life be religion, or an alternative I cant imagine, being without God.
All of my friends believe in God(My best friend subscribes to Divine Architecht, but that is still a higher power to me).
I dont know anyone who doesnt, and I honestly cant imagine waking up and saying "I am alone."
I never feel alone.
Ever.
I realize there is some psychobabble to account for this, but it really isnt a hard science anyway.
So (I assume you-bottle-do not believe) how do you...feel, being alone?
This isnt a slam, I mean, i really dont know.
I feel like someone has my back, all the time.
In everything I do.
Is it even possible to describe not feeling that way?

I don't believe in gods, but I suppose the fact that they appear in so many cultural mythologies (pretty much all of them) could be argued to imply some kind of God exists. I happen to think there are psychological reasons why gods are so popular, myself.

I've always had this gut feeling that theres something bigger out there, and that there is some sort of bond between everything that can't be explained with cold, hard facts.

For me, it's the fact that everything is so intricately organized. I mean, if you look at everything...the stars, Earth's pleasant distance from the Sun, the human body, and how detailed and complicated it is, just with the simple processes of life, the entire geography of our planet, and so many other things, it really makes you think, "Someone must have been very crafty in creating all of these things." I personally don't think that it was just coincidence that we were created so detailed, or it was coincidence that Earth is this distance away from the Sun. It's really hard to explain, but there are so many factors in every day life that make you think, this can't be a coincidence. It must have happened for a reason.

I've always had this gut feeling that theres something bigger out there, and that there is some sort of bond between everything that can't be explained with cold, hard facts.
Read up on Paul Tillich, his opinions are not Christian by nature they seem more metaphysical but he basically says what you said.
The Religious Situation
Dynamics of Faith
The Courage to Be
The Protestant Era

For me, it's the fact that everything is so intricately organized. I mean, if you look at everything...the stars, Earth's pleasant distance from the Sun, the human body, and how detailed and complicated it is, just with the simple processes of life, the entire geography of our planet, and so many other things, it really makes you think, "Someone must have been very crafty in creating all of these things." I personally don't think that it was just coincidence that we were created so detailed, or it was coincidence that Earth is this distance away from the Sun. It's really hard to explain, but there are so many factors in every day life that make you think, this can't be a coincidence. It must have happened for a reason.
Partially what you said sounds like St. Thomas Aquinas "1.The fact of change requires an agent of change. 2.The chain of causation needs to be grounded in a first cause that is itself uncaused. 3.The contingent facts of the world (facts that might not have been as they are) presuppose a necessary being 4.One can observe a gradation of things as higher and lower, and this points to a perfect reality at the top of the hierarchy. 5.The order and design of nature demand as their source a being possessing the highest wisdom."

Or what my friend believes, um...Intelligent Design.
Not arguements just for Christianity, but merely for a supremebeing/intelligence.
I just happen to be Christian.

Because if there is no God or heaven, once we die, we just sit and rot while worms decompose our body and our "soul" sits and rots for eternity. So God creating the after life.

#1 reason: because he's always been there. Sometimes it's a literal feeling and experience, other times he's just a voice in my head. Sometimes he guides, sometimes he's quiet when he needs to be. But to put it simply, he just won't go away unless I push him away.

I think it was when I was 7 or 8 and I prayed for the first real time that my brother (who suffers from a learning disability and a speech disorder) could be "smarter" by January.

And he actually did get better at talking by January. I think it was then that I was like "OMIGOD! There IS a God!"

Besides, if there is no God, how did the things before the Big Bang come about? What is the point of existance? Did God create himself from nothing?

Maybe, we need a God so there is one being that knows all these things. To remind us why we are here, what we are to do, and to know how everything before our time came about.

wow. now THAT makes Bottle sad. you don't feel like our existence on Earth is good enough? you don't feel that your life has purpose (beyond survival) unless there is a God? you don't believe that our experiences and our influence can extend beyond our physical life? you don't believe that there is somebody who will love and forgive you, no matter what?

zounds. if i felt the way you do i probably would turn to God, too...that sounds really rough.
To answer your questions in order:

Look around you, and tell me what you see. Our life may be thought of as a gift, a wonderful gift. But, how do people treat that gift? Do they cultivate it? Do they neglect it? Do they cherish it? Do they debase it? Do they respect it? Do they take care of it wisely? Do they squander it? ...and how long does that gift last?
Our existence in this world can be a good existence, but for some people it is not, and not always due to factors within their control. But, a better existence awaits us. After all is said and done, all we can do in this life is try, and God will be waiting for us in the life to come.
[I'm tired; I gotta think this one over.]
I'm not sure where you're getting this one from. Maybe there's been a misunderstanding? I DO believe that our experiences and our influence extend beyond our physical life. Namely, that they extend into a new existence after death, into a life with Almighty God.
First, I assume that you mean to ask "You don't believe that there is somebody mortal who...?" Many of us, myself included, have friends and family that we can turn to in times of need. However, they, like us, are only human, and inflicted by human failings. We so often and so easily fail to love and forgive one another. We hold grudges. We fear. We prejudge. We hate. Not God. God will love us and forgive us if we are repentant, and will love us and forgive us even if all we have is repentance.


--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Because if there is no God or heaven, once we die, we just sit and rot while worms decompose our body and our "soul" sits and rots for eternity. So God creating the after life.
so because you don't like the idea that our existence is finite, there must be a God?

To answer your questions in order:
[list]
Look around you, and tell me what you see. Our life may be thought of as a gift, a wonderful gift. But, how do people treat that gift? Do they cultivate it? Do they neglect it? Do they cherish it? Do they debase it? Do they respect it? Do they take care of it wisely? Do they squander it? ...and how long does that gift last?

people treat the "gift" of life exactly as they are designed to treat it, in accordance with their inidividual traits and gifts. just because some people don't use their life as i might wish they would use it doesn't mean that their choices are wrong or invalid.

Our existence in this world can be a good existence, but for some people it is not, and not always due to factors within their control. But, a better existence awaits us. After all is said and done, all we can do in this life is try, and God will be waiting for us in the life to come.

i don't see how the one follows from the other, but okay.

I DO believe that our experiences and our influence extend beyond our physical life. Namely, that they extend into a new existence after death, into a life with Almighty God.

why?


First, I assume that you mean to ask "You don't believe that there is somebody mortal who...?" Many of us, myself included, have friends and family that we can turn to in times of need. However, they, like us, are only human, and inflicted by human failings. We so often and so easily fail to love and forgive one another. We hold grudges. We fear. We prejudge. We hate. Not God. God will love us and forgive us if we are repentant, and will love us and forgive us even if all we have is repentance.

put it another way: i am deeply sorry for you if your human interactions aren't sufficient for you. saying that somebody is "only" human implies that you don't find human contact sufficient, and for that i am truly sorry...i hope you meet better humans in the future. personally, i find that humans are so stimulating, fascinating, confusing, and utterly amazing that i don't have time to bother with any supernatural forces.

I suppose I'm not sure if I believe in God as the general population understands Him/Her/Whatever, but most certainly in a higher being. I think things worked out a little too nicely for there not to be someone else running the show.

As for an afterlife ... I'm not really sure what to think. I sort of like Epicurus' idea of when the body dies, the soul dies. Thus, there should be no fear of death, because everything ceases to be at that time.

...believing in God.

Personal experience that could not be explained in terms of hallucinations, delusions, conspiracies, etc but fit the bill for a loving, healing powerful being generally referred to as God.

I've always believed in God. For the most part, it was because my family believed in him so I did.

But when I felt his POWER.... WOW... It was like a door opening in my heart. Being overwhelmed by a force strong enough to knock you down (It did for me... all 200+ lbs) and all I could do was LAUGH... the Joy and sense of Peace that washed over me (and everyone else that day) still lingers in my heart. I've alway secretly wanted proof that He was there... and BOY DID I GET IT! Smacked right into my heart.

I've always believed in God. For the most part, it was because my family believed in him so I did.

But when I felt his POWER.... WOW... It was like a door opening in my heart. Being overwhelmed by a force strong enough to knock you down (It did for me... all 200+ lbs) and all I could do was LAUGH... the Joy and sense of Peace that washed over me (and everyone else that day) still lingers in my heart. I've alway secretly wanted proof that He was there... and BOY DID I GET IT! Smacked right into my heart.

good for you!

Well, each to their own BUT
after rather a lot of years
I've found life to be random, chaotic, happenstance, and pointless.
Deities? HAH!
Any pattern or governing principle to any kind of life? HAH!
What to do about this?
Enjoy every moment you have - and when you cant, exit into the nothingness. :D

wow. now THAT makes Bottle sad. you don't feel like our existence on Earth is good enough? you don't feel that your life has purpose (beyond survival) unless there is a God? you don't believe that our experiences and our influence can extend beyond our physical life? you don't believe that there is somebody who will love and forgive you, no matter what?

zounds. if i felt the way you do i probably would turn to God, too...that sounds really rough.

Some people just have great expectations, Bottle. Some people just can't accept that there's nothing more than what we have and be happy with it.

Some people just have great expectations, Bottle. Some people just can't accept that there's nothing more than what we have and be happy with it.

To me viewing the cosmos as an accidental event, rather than one created by some personified deity, makes it all the more magnificent and spectacular.

To me viewing the cosmos as an accidental event, rather than one created by some personified deity, makes it all the more magnificent and spectacular.

So? I don't quite see how that is relevant to my explaining that not everyone has the same expectations out of life, and my unarticulated point that not everyone is strong enough to accept that all we have is quite good enough for anyone, regardless of the existence of an afterlife or a deity.

After all, is not being dissatisfied with God's creation being rather ungrateful? That's just a random observation. Sorry. I get all weird when I'm doing the night shift. Sleep deprivation is not good for my higher cognitive functions.

So? I don't quite see how that is relevant to my explaining that not everyone has the same expectations out of life, and my unarticulated point that not everyone is strong enough to accept that all we have is quite good enough for anyone, regardless of the existence of an afterlife or a deity.

It was more in line with my personal response to the sentence:

Some people just can't accept that there's nothing more than what we have and be happy with it.

- I'm happy with what we have (a materialist cosmos) and delighted with the wonder of it all, without needing to add on another posited metaphysical level to it.

- I'm happy with what we have (a materialist cosmos) and delighted with the wonder of it all, without needing to add on another posited metaphysical level to it.

As am I. Good for us, eh? :)

As am I. Good for us, eh? :)

We'll probably burn in hell for it though.

We'll probably burn in hell for it though.

Burning in hell for admiring beauty? That sounds a bit extreme.

We'll probably burn in hell for it though.

I'm actually trying for oblivion. I think it would be rather nice.

I'm actually trying for oblivion. I think it would be rather nice.

A Buddhist end to the suffering of existence?

A Buddhist end to the suffering of existence?

No. Just a peaceful end to a life well lived, without all the fanfare. No frills. It would be my own personal heaven. I would finally be done, you see. Life is all work. Even the really good things come with considerable responsibility and effort. I need a break. A final break. That's how I want it.

wow. now THAT makes Bottle sad. you don't feel like our existence on Earth is good enough? you don't feel that your life has purpose (beyond survival) unless there is a God? you don't believe that our experiences and our influence can extend beyond our physical life? you don't believe that there is somebody who will love and forgive you, no matter what?

zounds. if i felt the way you do i probably would turn to God, too...that sounds really rough.
In the grand scheme of things, without a God then no, nothing in this life has purpose beyond survival. Unless we're special, we're just animals. We're better at killing than they are, but we're just animals. When we die we'll rot in a grave as worms dig into your corpse, and you'll be forgotten by friends and loved ones until they die as well. Soon you won't even be a name, you'll be nothing. You might as well have never existed.

In the grand scheme of things, without a God then no, nothing in this life has purpose beyond survival. Unless we're special, we're just animals. We're better at killing than they are, but we're just animals. When we die we'll rot in a grave as worms dig into your corpse, and you'll be forgotten by friends and loved ones until they die as well. Soon you won't even be a name, you'll be nothing. You might as well have never existed.

But is there really anything wrong with that? Are we really so proud as to think we deserve to really mean something in the grand scheme of existence?

But is there really anything wrong with that? Are we really so proud as to think we deserve to really mean something in the grand scheme of existence?
It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with one of two realities, either we do mean something because some omnipotent force thinks we do, or we don't, because we don't. It doesn't matter what you believe, all that matters is what is.

But is there really anything wrong with that? Are we really so proud as to think we deserve to really mean something in the grand scheme of existence?But are we also so proud that the concept of a Higher Being is Rediculous? That we need no authority to answer to? That we would rather attribute our exsistance to a Mistake, or to chance than someone who could cast judgment on us?

In the grand scheme of things, without a God then no, nothing in this life has purpose beyond survival. Unless we're special, we're just animals. We're better at killing than they are, but we're just animals. When we die we'll rot in a grave as worms dig into your corpse, and you'll be forgotten by friends and loved ones until they die as well. Soon you won't even be a name, you'll be nothing. You might as well have never existed.

This means that either we should all commit suicide (no difference between living and dying, since we're useless oxygen-wasters), or just think about how life came to spring.

How the hell do you create algae (supposedly the first developped life form)from water and dirt alone?
Who created the first seed?

Who told this particular bacteria to be, and to evolve?

---

I realized g*d existed when I met my fiancée. I used to be a deist, but now I'm torn between "since I might finish in a concentration camp, I might as well practice the religion of my people". (that, and I believe more firmly in the ten commandments and 613 mitzvoth than in any other moral code)

This means that either we should all commit suicide (no difference between living and dying, since we're useless oxygen-wasters), or just think about how life came to spring.

How the hell do you create algae (supposedly the first developped life form)from water and dirt alone?
Who created the first seed?

Who told this particular bacteria to be, and to evolve?

---

I realized g*d existed when I met my fiancée. I used to be a deist, but now I'm torn between "since I might finish in a concentration camp, I might as well practice the religion of my people". (that, and I believe more firmly in the ten commandments and 613 mitzvoth than in any other moral code)
Exactly, without a god, there is no difference between living and dying. The only thing that will miss you is another human parasite.

It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with one of two realities, either we do mean something because some omnipotent force thinks we do, or we don't, because we don't. It doesn't matter what you believe, all that matters is what is.

I've always found that I'm only a speck of dust in the universe, perhaps soon to be forgotten and washed away, both fascinating and exhilirating. To me it's a wonderful feeling that I could have come about by chance. I don't know...it's difficult to explain.

But--I can find meaning within myself much easier than with a divinity, though I do find the possibility of one interesting...

But are we also so proud that the concept of a Higher Being is Rediculous? That we need no authority to answer to? That we would rather attribute our exsistance to a Mistake, or to chance than someone who could cast judgment on us?

It's always annoyed me when people say that believing in a higher being requires inordinate pride (because, atheist though I am, I think human beings do have a pretty good right to be arrogant), but I've never heard anyone actually make a decent comeback to it. You get 10 fake internet points.

Exactly, without a god, there is no difference between living and dying. The only thing that will miss you is another human parasite.

No, there is a difference, no matter how small, insignificant and worthless some one is, we all make a difference to someone or something. Hence, no matter what our actions, we all make a difference and contribute.

[QUOTE=Fnordish Infamy]I've always found that I'm only a speck of dust in the universe, perhaps soon to be forgotten and washed away, both fascinating and exhilirating. To me it's a wonderful feeling that I could have come about by chance. I don't know...it's difficult to explain.[QUOTE]

I know exactly what you mean. I don't need someone to give me a REASON to exist. All i need know is that i do exist now, and that whilst i exist i should live to what i consider the fullest extent that i can.

In the grand scheme of things, without a God then no, nothing in this life has purpose beyond survival. .

...but if there is no God to give us purpose, then we are free to create our own... (check your Nietzsche)

No, there is a difference, no matter how small, insignificant and worthless some one is, we all make a difference to someone or something. Hence, no matter what our actions, we all make a difference and contribute.
Contribute like a virus contributes to another virus. If anything else had a CNS developed enough to make decisions, do you think any organism on the planet would want us here? Biologically, humans dying off would be the best thing to happen to the world.

But are we also so proud that the concept of a Higher Being is Rediculous? That we need no authority to answer to? That we would rather attribute our exsistance to a Mistake, or to chance than someone who could cast judgment on us?

Some of us, surely. That is certainly it's own type of pride.

It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with one of two realities, either we do mean something because some omnipotent force thinks we do, or we don't, because we don't. It doesn't matter what you believe, all that matters is what is.

Are you familiar with the Thomas Theorem?

you mean like walk on water or create world

In the grand scheme of things, without a God then no, nothing in this life has purpose beyond survival. Unless we're special, we're just animals. We're better at killing than they are, but we're just animals. When we die we'll rot in a grave as worms dig into your corpse, and you'll be forgotten by friends and loved ones until they die as well. Soon you won't even be a name, you'll be nothing. You might as well have never existed.
so what? why does that bother you? do you really so desperately need to believe that you are that important to the Cosmos?

also, remember: the atoms that make up your person are the same atoms that have made up the stars. for this short span of time those atoms combine to form you, but after you cease to be a person those atoms will not wink out of existence; they will go on to become trillions of other pieces of reality. you are not only eternal, but practically infinite, both in terms of your physical nature and your temporal scope.

if you need to feel that your consciousness has changed the Cosmos, or that your consciousness will never die, then that is pretty sad to me. if you cannot enjoy your life and find peace with the limited nature of human existence, then that makes me sad as well.

This means that either we should all commit suicide (no difference between living and dying, since we're useless oxygen-wasters), or just think about how life came to spring.

why? just because i am not going to change all of existence doesn't mean i can't enjoy my time as a living human. there is a big difference between living and dying for ME, and if you don't see one then you probably should be seeking professional help.


How the hell do you create algae (supposedly the first developped life form)from water and dirt alone?

you don't, according to science.


Who created the first seed?

nobody, according to science.


Who told this particular bacteria to be, and to evolve?

nobody, according to science. no intelligence architect is necessary to explain the processes of selection and evolution.

Exactly, without a god, there is no difference between living and dying. The only thing that will miss you is another human parasite.
again, this utter contempt for other humans saddens me. if you decide that something has no value unless it has changed the Cosmos or will last forever then you are missing out on virtually all of the beauty around us. i can totally understand why somebody would turn to supertition if they were unable to see beauty, and why somebody would need to believe in God if they could not find joy and satisfaction with their own life and human contacts. that's horrible, and i hope things improve for you.

...believing in God.

Obviously, this is only applicable to those who believe in God. What is the all-time number one reason that you believe there is a God? Have you had different number one reasons at different points in your life? If so, what made them change?

And please, folks, this is a personal and individual question. It is okay to discuss other people's answers, but please don't attack them on a personal level...that is just plain rude, and will make me sad. I know nobody wants to make Bottle sad.
Ooh! Good question.

All time number one reason is comfort. The idea (concept) of god is comfortable, soft and fuzzy, and fits like a glove. Machine washable, too.

My reasons for believing are not what's in flux, so much as my understanding of god, which broadens with each passing year.

I'll have to go with Pascal, I believe it was. He said it was better to bet on there being a God, and be wrong, then to bet on there not being a God and be wrong. Although he was probably joking.

again, this utter contempt for other humans saddens me. if you decide that something has no value unless it has changed the Cosmos or will last forever then you are missing out on virtually all of the beauty around us. i can totally understand why somebody would turn to supertition if they were unable to see beauty, and why somebody would need to believe in God if they could not find joy and satisfaction with their own life and human contacts. that's horrible, and i hope things improve for you.
You're lying to yourself. The best you can ever hope to do in this world is to pass on genes, and not fuck it up too much before your synapses cease firing. That's all you have to look forward. Your existence creates disorder, you are actively destroying not only the planet, but the universe itself, simply by existing. You're a perfect example of a parasite, you can only exist at the expense of the world. Yes, there is beauty in this world, beauty which we actively destroy and burn. You're nothing, you're a molecular accident, you're the product of a few atoms randomly bumping into each other a few billion years ago. And in a billion years, if anyone is still left alive, they certainly won't care about you, heck, if they knew you, they'd probably be annoyed how badly you and everyone in our time period damaged the planet.

so what? why does that bother you? do you really so desperately need to believe that you are that important to the Cosmos?

also, remember: the atoms that make up your person are the same atoms that have made up the stars. for this short span of time those atoms combine to form you, but after you cease to be a person those atoms will not wink out of existence; they will go on to become trillions of other pieces of reality. you are not only eternal, but practically infinite, both in terms of your physical nature and your temporal scope.

if you need to feel that your consciousness has changed the Cosmos, or that your consciousness will never die, then that is pretty sad to me. if you cannot enjoy your life and find peace with the limited nature of human existence, then that makes me sad as well.
I don't need to, my faith is based on other things. Having significance is just a bonus. Just because a part of you exists, doesn't mean you have any significance. With quantum theory, atoms pop in and out of the universe all the time, so you're not composed of a set group of atoms, they just combine randomly for awhile so you can exist. Later you die and decay, and exist no longer. You don't exist because your atoms exist anymore than trees exist because paper exists. I don't feel the need to change anything, I can accept what humans are in either view of them. If you cannot see that by your existence the universe itself withers and dies, then you have a very limited understanding of what humans are and what they aren't.

...believing in God.

Obviously, this is only applicable to those who believe in God. What is the all-time number one reason that you believe there is a God? Have you had different number one reasons at different points in your life? If so, what made them change?

And please, folks, this is a personal and individual question. It is okay to discuss other people's answers, but please don't attack them on a personal level...that is just plain rude, and will make me sad. I know nobody wants to make Bottle sad.

I tried to commit suicide once. I took a few bottles of pills. There was a third bottle that, if I had taken its pills also, I would have definitely been dead. I came very close to dying as it is. I would have taken the third bottle, only I couldn't find it. I didn't move it anywhere. My mom didn't. Obviously, my younger brother didn't. Just gone, without a trace. The disappearance of that pill bottle saved my life. My mom says it was divine intervention.

people treat the "gift" of life exactly as they are designed to treat it, in accordance with their inidividual traits and gifts. just because some people don't use their life as i might wish they would use it doesn't mean that their choices are wrong or invalid.
*grr* The idea of "design," whether from pro-god quarter or atheistic quarter, makes me want to grind my teeth. I don't see how anyone can believe that they are not in control of their life: their thoughts, their person, their choices.

*grr* The idea of "design," whether from pro-god quarter or atheistic quarter, makes me want to grind my teeth. I don't see how anyone can believe that they are not in control of their life: their thoughts, their person, their choices.
i think you misunderstood what i was saying; people each treat their life in exactly the way they "should" based on who they are. who they are is shaped in part by forces beyond their control (like genetics, what parents they are born to, where they grow up as a child, the actions of other people around them), but is also determined by their personal choices and their vision of who and what they want to be. people most certainly are in control of their person and their choices, but they aren't entirely in control of their lives because there will always be outside forces that they cannot control.

when i spoke of how they were "designed" to treat their life, i was referring to the fact that at any given point in time a person has only one Self (normally :P), and they will view their life with whatever features are a part of that self. they will act in accordance with the parts that make up their Self, by definition, so they are acting in accordance with their current design.

sorry for the confusion, i realize that my phrasing was VERY poor originally.

But is there really anything wrong with that? Are we really so proud as to think we deserve to really mean something in the grand scheme of existence?
Here's the kicker ...by asking that question, you *do* mean something in "the grand scheme of existence".

Here's the kicker ...by asking that question, you *do* mean something in "the grand scheme of existence".
*blink*

whoa...

you're messing with my head, man!

I've always found that I'm only a speck of dust in the universe, perhaps soon to be forgotten and washed away, both fascinating and exhilirating. To me it's a wonderful feeling that I could have come about by chance. I don't know...it's difficult to explain.

I know exactly what you mean. I don't need someone to give me a REASON to exist. All i need know is that i do exist now, and that whilst i exist i should live to what i consider the fullest extent that i can.
I know that feeling, too. My concept of creation is every bit full of wonderful chance mistakes.

people treat the "gift" of life exactly as they are designed to treat it, in accordance with their inidividual traits and gifts. just because some people don't use their life as i might wish they would use it doesn't mean that their choices are wrong or invalid.
At the moment, I only have time to respond to this one point.

I'm thinking on a global scale, here, about all the various injustices and atrocities that occur around the world. Earth can be a paradise, if only we would cooperate with one another, trust one another, and be just a little more selfless towards one another.

I'm thinking, here, about about all the times when people victimize other people to satisfy their own greed and desires: the warlords, the dictators, the crime gangs... right down to the schoolyard bullies. It's not just about how you treat the gift of life given to you, it's also about how you treat the gift of life given to others, as well (and I may not have made this point clear in my last post; Mea Culpa). In short, "Mans inhumanity towards Man".

Thankfully, I have never had to suffer these injustices, myself. Still, it does make me sad to think: "The world can be a better place, if only we would love one another."

Side Note: One could argue that suffering is necessary, that it is through our mistakes that we learn, to know that there is a better way and to find that better way. I'm not going to argue that, here, because that's a deeper philosophical question than I forsee having time to consider or debate personally. I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.

I will respond to the other points later.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

also, remember: the atoms that make up your person are the same atoms that have made up the stars. for this short span of time those atoms combine to form you, but after you cease to be a person those atoms will not wink out of existence; they will go on to become trillions of other pieces of reality. you are not only eternal, but practically infinite, both in terms of your physical nature and your temporal scope.
You do have a religion of your own. :-) Well done.

Fear.

When it comes down to it, conversion and acceptance is about fear. Fear of death, fear of the unknown, fear that you are unimportant, fear that there is no father figure there to protect, guide, and bail you out in a jam.

Especially the part about fearing to be unimportant. Every religion I know of, and yes I know religion is not God but they DO function rather hand in hand, rewards its followers with some promise. Christian and Islamic heavens, for example. Or some kind of special signifigance beyond other people, like Judaism. No one wants to be a completely irrelevant collection of molecules. No one wants to die.

That's my 2 cents.

I believe in God because He's come into my life and radically changed me. I didn't expect Him to, I didn't especially want Him to, but I did want to know the truth about how things really are, and I believe God changed my mind so that I believe that He exists, and that the Bible is true.
That was 4 years, 8 months ago, and He's still with me. I have two-way communication with the Creator, and I get to work for Him, doing His stuff, together with other people who belong to Jesus. Also, He's changing my character, so that I can do His stuff better. This is the real deal that I've found.

B/c if you don't, He will smite you. WAHAHAHAHAHA!

Originally Posted by Texan Hotrodders
But is there really anything wrong with that? Are we really so proud as to think we deserve to really mean something in the grand scheme of existence?
Originally Posted by Willamena
Here's the kicker ...by asking that question, you *do* mean something in "the grand scheme of existence".*blink*

whoa...

you're messing with my head, man!
It is man who assigns meaning to things.

We're very good at it. In fact, in Judaic and Christian tradition, that's the first task god gave Adam: to name things. Naming them gives them meaning that can be communicated to other men.

By our cognitive ability to recognize, label and understand everything in the universe, we give them, and inherently ourselves, meaning. We are Man, the Observer, witness to creation going on all around us.

It's not pride that makes us important in the Cosmos; it's ego and consciousness.

The reason I believe in God is because I met him/her/it. I call God the Divine. This is just my name for him/her/it, and it's easier to spell.

Anyhoo, I has what is commonly termed a state of grace. My whole being was suffused by a power, a light, a feeling of knowing.

Do I believe there is an afterlife? I don't know. The Divine did not give me any such knowledge.

Did the Divine create the Universe? I don't know that either. We had more important things to discuss.

Am I religious? No. I had this experience while I was making pizza at a restaurant. I wasn't doing anything spiritual or any drugs either. The Divine did not make me feel that any religion is correct about God or the Universe. I have the feeling that the Divine doesn't really care about such trivial things as church, religion, holy books, prophets or messiahs.

What was I 'told'?

Simply this: you are eternal and infinite, not because you live forever, but because you are alive right now. And from now until the end of time, it will always be right now.

so because you don't like the idea that our existence is finite, there must be a God?



Well if all our life consisted of was 70-80s of living on earth and dieing and then we're done, well that sounds like a pretty sad existance.

...believing in God.

Obviously, this is only applicable to those who believe in God. What is the all-time number one reason that you believe there is a God? Have you had different number one reasons at different points in your life? If so, what made them change?

And please, folks, this is a personal and individual question. It is okay to discuss other people's answers, but please don't attack them on a personal level...that is just plain rude, and will make me sad. I know nobody wants to make Bottle sad.
Because if I don't I will feel all pointless in this infinite galaxy with no defining purpose and my head will explode. OOH, fear the dark pits ye see in hill sides, they are the gateways to hell and eternal damnation, but do as your leader tells you and you can go to the nice heaveny place

I don't believe in God, by the way, so you don't get confused with all the other people who put this seriously, in paraphrase

You're lying to yourself. The best you can ever hope to do in this world is to pass on genes, and not fuck it up too much before your synapses cease firing. That's all you have to look forward.
This post is a perfect example of why people like me stay away from religion (not God, religion). "If you don't think like me, you're worthless." What a load of egotistic crap.

I believe that God exists because when I was little, I could hear my Mom talking to him. Sometimes at night, when I was feeling scared, I go down the hallway and put a pillow down by my parent's bedroom door. A lot of those nights I could hear my Mom in the bedroom... "God, oh God, oh my God, oh oh..."

So, I'm pretty sure God exists.

Because if I don't I will feel all pointless in this infinite galaxy with no defining purpose and my head will explode. OOH, fear the dark pits ye see in hill sides, they are the gateways to hell and eternal damnation, but do as your leader tells you and you can go to the nice heaveny place

I don't believe in God, by the way, so you don't get confused with all the other people who put this seriously, in paraphrase
It's only the people who don't believe in god who spout such nonsense.

It's only the people who don't believe in god who spout such nonsense.
SO that wasn't used in the UK and the US up until the early 20th century in some areas then. No? Oh, I was obviously wrong to think tha.. LOOK OUT SATAN IS TRYING TO STEAL YOUR SOUL!!! Sorry, got a bit carried away there, must be all the 'Genetic engineering is wrong because I say it's wrong and because God didn't think of it, and because he knows everything it can't ever exist in any real way' arguments flying around the various threads.
because because because because becaaause! Because of the wonderful things he does!

You do have a religion of your own. :-) Well done.
according to my dictionary, a religion is:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

the first four clearly don't apply to any of my beliefs, but the fifth one applies to pretty much everything i do...i'm nothing if not zealous! :)

Well if all our life consisted of was 70-80s of living on earth and dieing and then we're done, well that sounds like a pretty sad existance.
why do you think that sounds like a sad existence?

why do you think that sounds like a sad existence?
Because if there's a possibility of more, of continuing on with a rich, full, free life forever, then it's sad if anyone doesn't receive that.

Because if there's a possibility of more, of continuing on with a rich, full, free life forever, then it's sad if anyone doesn't receive that.
oh, i agree that if such a rich, full, free, eternal life were available then it would be sad if not everybody was allowed to partake in it. however, i don't see why you need to believe there is such an eternal life in order to give meaning to your current one; that is, why do you think that life is pointless by itself? why do you think life needs to last forever in order to be valuable or important or happy? does the duration of your existence really change how much you cherish it?

also, remember: the atoms that make up your person are the same atoms that have made up the stars. for this short span of time those atoms combine to form you, but after you cease to be a person those atoms will not wink out of existence; they will go on to become trillions of other pieces of reality. you are not only eternal, but practically infinite, both in terms of your physical nature and your temporal scope.


I'm reminded of Wittgenstein here: from the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, section 6.4311:

Death is not an event in life: we do not life to experience death.

If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present.

Our life has no end in just the way in which our visual field has no limits.

oh, i agree that if such a rich, full, free, eternal life were available then it would be sad if not everybody was allowed to partake in it. however, i don't see why you need to believe there is such an eternal life in order to give meaning to your current one; that is, why do you think that life is pointless by itself? why do you think life needs to last forever in order to be valuable or important or happy? does the duration of your existence really change how much you cherish it?
For me the thing is, if this life is all we have, that's a lot of pressure on us. Yes, maybe you can lead a totally happy and meaningful life without belief in any sort of deity, but look at it this way: if I made some really stupid, awful, life-ruining decision, or even just something terrible happened to me, right now (I'm 20), and I didn't believe in God, all I'd have to look forward to was 50 some years of living down that event. If I committed a heinous crime and spent my life in prison, I'd have no freedom to look forward to, ever. If my family died, I'd really believe I would never see them again, ever. If I was on my deathbed and realized I had never done anything good for the world, and I'd never have a chance to again, I'd probably die a bitter and regretful death.

In short, if all we have is three quarters of a century, what we do during that time takes on much more meaning. It determines if and how we'll be remembered. It defines how worthwhile we'll consider our existence when we reach the tail end of it. From an atheist point of view, the hurts of the world will never be healed.

God takes that all away. If my family died today, yes I'd be very, very sad, but I would also have the believe that they'd be in a better place, and that one day I would be reunited with them. If I grow old and realize that I never achieved the goals I have now, I can still die with the knowledge that I'm going to a place where my earthly deeds won't matter. From a theist point of view, the hurts of the world will be completely healed beyond memory.

I see this play out in my life all the time. I just have an inner peace, a sense that my problems are smaller than they seem. If I do poorly on an exam, so what? One example I see a lot is at the end of each semester, when I fill out evaluation forms for my professors, the minute the professors leave the room, a lot of people start talking about how awful the prof was, and I think to myself, "I didn't think they were that bad." Because my ultimate goal in life is not to graduate with a high GPA and get a prestigious job, having a professor with a quirky style or a thick accent doesn't really bother me. Of course, I realize there are atheists how wouldn't be bothered by that, either, but a lot of the people around me are. Or with the elections, for example. A lot of people were pretty desperate for their candidate to win, because they felt that the political decisions made in the next four years will have a big impact on what the world comes to. I honestly didn't even care, because I believe there's something in control of it all that knows what it's doing and is going to make everything good in the end.

I expect it's hard for someone who doesn't experience this to understand. I sort of think of it as an issue of focus. Think of driving: if you look at the road just ahead of you, you'll notice every pothole, every crack, every twig in your way. If you look way up ahead of you, you'll only see the open road.

Similarly, if you believe you'll only exist as a conscious entity for a few decades, of course you'll be focused on short term situations and problems, which can very bleak. If you believe you'll exist as a conscious entity for the rest of eternity, you'll probably tend to look forward to eternity, when, as I believe, there will be no pain, sorrow, or death. It certainly brightens up a bad day when you remind yourself that, no matter how crappy your life is at the moment, it's just a blip in the grand scheme of things, and things are going to get very, very good in time!

I'm reminded of Wittgenstein here: from the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, section 6.4311:

Death is not an event in life: we do not life to experience death.

If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present.

Our life has no end in just the way in which our visual field has no limits.
WHOA. there's somebody else who has actually read Wittgenstein?! FAR OUT!!!!

WHOA. there's somebody else who has actually read Wittgenstein?! FAR OUT!!!!

Our habit of passing over in silence those things we cannot speak about makes us appear less numerous than we actually are...

For me the thing is, if this life is all we have, that's a lot of pressure on us. Yes, maybe you can lead a totally happy and meaningful life without belief in any sort of deity, but look at it this way: if I made some really stupid, awful, life-ruining decision, or even just something terrible happened to me, right now (I'm 20), and I didn't believe in God, all I'd have to look forward to was 50 some years of living down that event. If I committed a heinous crime and spent my life in prison, I'd have no freedom to look forward to, ever. If my family died, I'd really believe I would never see them again, ever. If I was on my deathbed and realized I had never done anything good for the world, and I'd never have a chance to again, I'd probably die a bitter and regretful death.

no offense, but that sounds like a very poor reason to believe in anything. you basically are saying that reality makes you sad, so you decide to believe in something that will make you feel better. while i understand that emotional reaction, i think you do yourself a grave diservice if you allow your worldview to be determined by fear.

it makes me sad that the species called the Dodo has gone extinct, and i would be very very happy if i learned that there were still living dodos. however, for me to then convince myself that aliens must have come to Earth and saved some dodos (said dodos now being safe and sound aboard the mothership) just because the alternative makes me feel bad...well, that's not considered to be consistent with good mental health.


In short, if all we have is three quarters of a century, what we do during that time takes on much more meaning. It determines if and how we'll be remembered. It defines how worthwhile we'll consider our existence when we reach the tail end of it.

EXACTLY!!! you cannot possible embrace the full power and significance of your life if you refuse to accept that it will end. an infinite existence has no real value, if you think about it; why bother to improve your golf swing, if you know you have eternity to get good at it?

From an atheist point of view, the hurts of the world will never be healed.

i don't see how you reach that conclusion. also, please remember that atheist and theist are not the only two positions that can be taken on this issue.


God takes that all away. If my family died today, yes I'd be very, very sad, but I would also have the believe that they'd be in a better place, and that one day I would be reunited with them. If I grow old and realize that I never achieved the goals I have now, I can still die with the knowledge that I'm going to a place where my earthly deeds won't matter. From a theist point of view, the hurts of the world will be completely healed beyond memory.

again, it sounds like you are just saying that you believe in God out of pure wishful thinking. it is nicer for you to believe in God than for you not to believe in God, so you choose to believe because it feels nice. this immediately evokes a parallel to drug abuse, in my mind; for an addict, imbibing a drug feels better than not imbibing that drug, so they decide to do it because it feels nice, regardless of whether it is an objectively wise decision.


I see this play out in my life all the time. I just have an inner peace, a sense that my problems are smaller than they seem. If I do poorly on an exam, so what?

and you think this is a good thing? it's good to have a sense of perspective, and to know that one test isn't going to decide your entire future, but if you simply don't care about your activities here on Earth then i don't believe it is possible for you to live as well or as fully as a person who chooses to put real effort and heart into everything they do.


One example I see a lot is at the end of each semester, when I fill out evaluation forms for my professors, the minute the professors leave the room, a lot of people start talking about how awful the prof was, and I think to myself, "I didn't think they were that bad." Because my ultimate goal in life is not to graduate with a high GPA and get a prestigious job, having a professor with a quirky style or a thick accent doesn't really bother me.

your laid-back attitude is one that is found in religious and secular alike, so i don't see what it has to do with this discussion. if you like being a mellow person then that's fine, but you certainly don't need God for that.


Or with the elections, for example. A lot of people were pretty desperate for their candidate to win, because they felt that the political decisions made in the next four years will have a big impact on what the world comes to. I honestly didn't even care, because I believe there's something in control of it all that knows what it's doing and is going to make everything good in the end.

again, this seems like a very futile attitude. you don't really care, because this world doesn't matter much to you.


I expect it's hard for someone who doesn't experience this to understand. I sort of think of it as an issue of focus. Think of driving: if you look at the road just ahead of you, you'll notice every pothole, every crack, every twig in your way. If you look way up ahead of you, you'll only see the open road.

Similarly, if you believe you'll only exist as a conscious entity for a few decades, of course you'll be focused on short term situations and problems, which can very bleak. If you believe you'll exist as a conscious entity for the rest of eternity, you'll probably tend to look forward to eternity, when, as I believe, there will be no pain, sorrow, or death. It certainly brightens up a bad day when you remind yourself that, no matter how crappy your life is at the moment, it's just a blip in the grand scheme of things, and things are going to get very, very good in time!
if you only look way up ahead of you, you will miss all the beautiful scenery passing you by. you will miss all the detail around you. you will also make a much poorer driver. it is completely possible to take in the big picture while also being fully aware of all the details, it's simply more difficult...personally, i don't just take the easiest possible course in order to spare myself some trouble, i push myself to understand and experience as much as i am capable of. your philosophy sounds like a long series of cop-outs and excuses, to me, and i have to admit that i can't really understand how any self-respecting person would be comfortable with living in that sort of denial.

I never said that was my only reason for believing in God (I have others, such as the fact that I experience God in my life, and my beliefs help me make rational sense out of certain things, but I won't go into those now) or the whole basis of my philosophy! I was simply trying to illustrate how, for many people, belief in God can give a more positive outlook on life. I understand that there are atheists who have a positive outlook on life. I understand that there are people who believe in God who do not. My point was, and only was, that it can be comforting at times to think that we haven't seen it all. I never said that I "simply don't care about [my] activities here on Earth" or that "this world doesn't matter much to [me]." (The reason, by the way, that I said I "didn't even care" about the election rather than I "cared little" about it, partly also lies in having major philosophical differences with both viable candidates) What I said was that I care less about my activities and what's going on around me because they aren't the totality of my existence.

You claim I live in "denial." When did I deny that the world has problems? I said I believe that one day, it will not have problems - a statement which, by its very nature, implies that said problems exist.

Again, I don't expect you to relate to this. My point is not to convince you that what I believe is the only rational thing to believe. You had commented in the post I originally quoted that you didn't believe there was a need to believe in eternal life to have a meaningful life. I was only trying to illustrate how that works for some people, not suggest that it is the only thing that can make people feel meaningful or happy.

And by the way . . . I was taught in driver's ed to "aim high"!

You claim I live in "denial." When did I deny that the world has problems? I said I believe that one day, it will not have problems - a statement which, by its very nature, implies that said problems exist.

huh? when i said you lived in a state of denial, it had nothing to do with whether or not your admit the world has problems. read my post again.


And by the way . . . I was taught in driver's ed to "aim high"!
were you also told to ignore close-up details like street signs?

I find it disturbing that what started as a question of Faith, Belief, and experience has turned into personal attacks, barbs, and arguments. Seems like this thread was created for the sole purpose of ridiculing those who have Faith or belong to any religion.

I find it disturbing that what started as a question of Faith, Belief, and experience has turned into personal attacks, barbs, and arguments. Seems like this thread was created for the sole purpose of ridiculing those who have Faith or belong to any religion.
i don't see personal attacks or barbs, though certainly a good amount of argument...but argument is a good thing. this thread was started for exactly the purpose that is stated: i wanted to understand what people rank as their number one reason for believing in God, and to discuss why they feel their reason(s) are compelling. if you don't feel prepared to read spirited debate then i would invite you to avoid threads that i found.

i don't see personal attacks or barbs, though certainly a good amount of argument...but argument is a good thing. this thread was started for exactly the purpose that is stated: i wanted to understand what people rank as their number one reason for believing in God, and to discuss why they feel their reason(s) are compelling. if you don't feel prepared to read spirited debate then i would invite you to avoid threads that i found.I'm not commenting on the tone... but to question other people's faith, to ask them to "prove" or to "Convince" with a few paragraphs is asking them to share things that are deeply involved within them.
They are sharing hopes, dreams, Faith, Things that are extremely hard to prove with a few words from people you don't know personnally. Granted you, Bottle, I feel try to understand. but it's like trying to describe the taste of Celery to a man who's never had it. Or a Sunset to a person born Blind. You cannot just use words. If you, and others, are truly curious as to the life the faithful lead. then you must try it. Try it with an open heart and Mind. Analyse it, question it and examine it. By all means then discuss it. but to sit back and ask strangers to write a few short paragraphs to "convince me." that's insulting.
When a Person is describing their Faith, their beliefs, then is told that they are not "Living Life to the Fullest" that is a personal attack. When they are told, "only by knowing you are mortal is when you can live" is foolish. Everyone knows they are mortal. Everyone Knows that one day they will die. For some, Religion gives hope that after death, there is Life. Religion also states how you live now... on Earth will be reflected in the Life after Death... weither it be Heavan, Hell, or reincarnation. Trying to convince someone of their belief (yes, I'm including Athiests and Agnostics as well,) is attacking that which they built their lives upon. the "Core" of their living morals. No one likes to be told that they're waisting their lives on false dreams.
To live without the wonder... without the mysteries... is also living an incomplete life. to take that wonder, hope, and faith away from someone... that's taking away something... truly irriplaceable.
You asked for examples of faith. "What convinced you" then to judge that person by their examples! Take your quotes from your last post for instance..
no offense, but that sounds like a very poor reason to believe in anything. you basically are saying that reality makes you sad, so you decide to believe in something that will make you feel better. That’s why people have Hope, Faith and Belief. Can you think of a better reason to believe in something? EXACTLY!!! you cannot possible embrace the full power and significance of your life if you refuse to accept that it will end. an infinite existence has no real value, if you think about it; why bother to improve your golf swing, if you know you have eternity to get good at it? Faith also allows people to embrace the full power and significance of their lives… try it. it sounds like you are just saying that you believe in God out of pure wishful thinking. it is nicer for you to believe in God than for you not to believe in God, so you choose to believe because it feels nice. this immediately evokes a parallel to drug abuse, in my mind; for an addict, imbibing a drug feels better than not imbibing that drug, so they decide to do it because it feels nice, regardless of whether it is an objectively wise decision. tell me. What do you CHOOSE to do that doesn’t make you feel good. Either now or later? and you think this is a good thing? it's good to have a sense of perspective, and to know that one test isn't going to decide your entire future, but if you simply don't care about your activities here on Earth then i don't believe it is possible for you to live as well or as fully as a person who chooses to put real effort and heart into everything they do. Sometimes faith does put it in perspective. I’ve seen/heard of students committing suicide because they got an ‘F’ on a test. I’ve seen people with no faith spend their entire lives with less human contact then the “normal” person. Sometimes, it’s faith and trust that allows a person to grow. To know that maybe the ‘F’ in History may not be so bad after all. Makes the failure bearable. The Ill feelings still spurs one to try harder, but knowing that there is a second chance, that God is always looking out for you… that can also move mountains. Faith, Hope and Belief can and do inspire effortyour laid-back attitude is one that is found in religious and secular alike, so i don't see what it has to do with this discussion. if you like being a mellow person then that's fine, but you certainly don't need God for that. You mistake a Laid-back Attitude for faith that God will do what is right. Of course, if that person didn’t vote saying “God will handle it without me” then you are right. again, this seems like a very futile attitude. you don't really care, because this world doesn't matter much to you. this person wouldn’t have shared their faith/belief/hope if they didn’t care about the world… or you. if you only look way up ahead of you, you will miss all the beautiful scenery passing you by. you will miss all the detail around you. you will also make a much poorer driver. it is completely possible to take in the big picture while also being fully aware of all the details, it's simply more difficult...personally, i don't just take the easiest possible course in order to spare myself some trouble, i push myself to understand and experience as much as i am capable of. your philosophy sounds like a long series of cop-outs and excuses, to me, and i have to admit that i can't really understand how any self-respecting person would be comfortable with living in that sort of denial. looking at the scenery is nice. Concentrate on what is immediately in front of you too hard and you will find yourself lost, or at a dead end. And unlike a car… you can’t throw life into reverse and pick the other fork.

I'm not commenting on the tone... but to question other people's faith, to ask them to "prove" or to "Convince" with a few paragraphs is asking them to share things that are deeply involved within them.
They are sharing hopes, dreams, Faith, Things that are extremely hard to prove with a few words from people you don't know personnally. Granted you, Bottle, I feel try to understand. but it's like trying to describe the taste of Celery to a man who's never had it. Or a Sunset to a person born Blind. You cannot just use words. If you, and others, are truly curious as to the life the faithful lead. then you must try it. Try it with an open heart and Mind. Analyse it, question it and examine it. By all means then discuss it. but to sit back and ask strangers to write a few short paragraphs to "convince me." that's insulting.

if it is insulting to ask people to explain their beliefs then i guess i am insulting as all hell. i don't see it as an insult to give serious and critical examination to what people to have to say, especially on so important a topic as the nature and existence of the Divine. i believe that scrutiny is a form of respect, since it shows that i am taking the issue seriously.

i understand that people may have difficulty expressing themselves on subjects like this one, but that does not mean we should avoid discussion. i don't see any harm in asking questions or probing motives, and i don't see why anybody who has given serious thoughts to their beliefs would be threatened or insulted by my questions.


When a Person is describing their Faith, their beliefs, then is told that they are not "Living Life to the Fullest" that is a personal attack. When they are told, "only by knowing you are mortal is when you can live" is foolish.

those are my beliefs, and i have stated them prefaced as such. it is no more insulting for me to state those beliefs than it is for a Christian to state the belief that those who do not accept Jesus will be sent to Hell; it's personal belief, not a personal insult.


Everyone knows they are mortal. Everyone Knows that one day they will die. For some, Religion gives hope that after death, there is Life.

in my belief system, believing that there is Life after death is a means of avoiding one's mortality. if you cannot accept that everything that is you will one day cease to be, then in my opinion you are not facing mortality.

Religion also states how you live now... on Earth will be reflected in the Life after Death... weither it be Heavan, Hell, or reincarnation. Trying to convince someone of their belief (yes, I'm including Athiests and Agnostics as well,) is attacking that which they built their lives upon.

i'm not trying to convince anybody to believe as i do. i don't believe it is possible to force somebody to change their opinion on this subject, and i am not interested in trying to do so. i am interested in challenging what i see as weak points in their reasoning, but through those challenges to also examine my own perspective; if it turns out that their logic is sound then i will have to re-examine my own logic, something i am quite willing and prepared to do.


the "Core" of their living morals. No one likes to be told that they're waisting their lives on false dreams.

whether or not people like having their beliefs challenged is irrelevant to whether those beliefs are sound. nobody likes being told they are an alcoholic, either, but does that mean we simply shouldn't try to confront people with alcoholism because it might make them uncomfortable to hear our concerns?


To live without the wonder... without the mysteries... is also living an incomplete life. to take that wonder, hope, and faith away from someone... that's taking away something... truly irriplaceable.

a person who believes those things can only be found in religion has already lost far more than i could possibly take from them. though i personally don't see how religion allows for any mystery or wonder at all; every question is answered with, "God made it that way," which is far more repetative and mundane (in my opinion) than the wonder and mystery openned up by human experience and science.


You asked for examples of faith. "What convinced you" then to judge that person by their examples!

i judge people by their choices, by their reasoning, by their actions, and by their beliefs. what other criterion do you propose i use to judge people? please note, also, that when i say i "judge" people i am refering to the fact that i evaluate people based on information about them...i am not saying i pass judgment on them or that i believe i am in a position to be an arbiter of their morality. just to be clear on the homonyms :).


Take your quotes from your last post for instance..
That’s why people have Hope, Faith and Belief. Can you think of a better reason to believe in something?

how about believing in something because it is real, accurate, or true?


Faith also allows people to embrace the full power and significance of their lives… try it. tell me. What do you CHOOSE to do that doesn’t make you feel good.

every day i must choose to do things that don't feel good. i must choose to study for exams and do boring homework. i must choose to pay bills. i must choose to wear uncomfortable business-casual clothing because my job requires it. these things are good for me in the long run, but they most certainly do not feel good. this is the crux of my point about faith; i do not argue that faith FEELS good to many people, but i personally believe it is not healthy in the long run, and that they would feel better in the long run if they chose a different path. this is why i seek to understand their reasoning behind their choice, to determine if there is an element i am missing.

I’ve seen/heard of students committing suicide because they got an ‘F’ on a test. I’ve seen people with no faith spend their entire lives with less human contact then the “normal” person. Sometimes, it’s faith and trust that allows a person to grow. To know that maybe the ‘F’ in History may not be so bad after all. Makes the failure bearable. The Ill feelings still spurs one to try harder, but knowing that there is a second chance, that God is always looking out for you… that can also move mountains. Faith, Hope and Belief can and do inspire effort

in my opinion, a person who needs faith to have motivation is like a person who needs to take speed to study for tests. the functional success may be there, but i don't believe the dependence is healthy.


looking at the scenery is nice. Concentrate on what is immediately in front of you too hard and you will find yourself lost, or at a dead end. And unlike a car… you can’t throw life into reverse and pick the other fork.
i think we have pretty well beaten the driving metaphor to death, don't you? :)

I had a near death experience which searingly imprinted my mind with light and peace.

Truly!

I had a near death experience which searingly imprinted my mind with light and peace.

Truly!
did you believe in God before this experience? do you now believe in God as a result of that experience? what about that experience led you to make connections to the exitence of some Divine force?

The reason I believe in God is because I met him/her/it. I call God the Divine. This is just my name for him/her/it, and it's easier to spell.

Anyhoo, I has what is commonly termed a state of grace. My whole being was suffused by a power, a light, a feeling of knowing.

Do I believe there is an afterlife? I don't know. The Divine did not give me any such knowledge.

Did the Divine create the Universe? I don't know that either. We had more important things to discuss.

Am I religious? No. I had this experience while I was making pizza at a restaurant. I wasn't doing anything spiritual or any drugs either. The Divine did not make me feel that any religion is correct about God or the Universe. I have the feeling that the Divine doesn't really care about such trivial things as church, religion, holy books, prophets or messiahs.

What was I 'told'?

Simply this: you are eternal and infinite, not because you live forever, but because you are alive right now. And from now until the end of time, it will always be right now.

Cool I had a similar experience, it was after I had committed a (trivial but selfless none the less) act of kindness towards a stranger. I can only describe the feeling as the most powerfull thing I have ever felt. It lasted less than a micro second (well, an extreamly miniscule length of time anyway - I didn't have my stop watch on so I can't be precise :p ) but took weeks to fade away - like when you switch on a light bulb in the dark and the image burns away even with your eyes closed. The details surrounding this encounter are, for want of a better word,: ridiculous - however I think that because my beleif is so fragile, it is all the more special.

I do not beleive in an afterlife - I see no reason why there should be one, also like the quotted post, I was not 'told' of one. All I know for sure from this event is that 'god' places the responsibillity for our lives in our hands alone - I'm fat because I eat, not because of my job or parents or anything else. This responsibillity, I believe (through my own reasoning, not from my encounter) extends further, and that we - the more fortunate - have a responsibility to those who are less well off.

Also I'd like to make the point that just because you beleive there is a god, it doesn't nessecarily follow that your life then has a purpose or greater significance. God may not have a plan, heck they may not even be all-powerfull.

Each moment is the eternal now.
The transient moment which comprises my life thus partakes of timelessness.
Even the stars flicker and die.
Yet all that is and was is part of all that is and was.
i do not aspire to be a self conscious agent interminably, although i admire the soul of the universe.
I just want to melt into that soul.

Well I can say from when I was a kid I was forced to believe in God (go to church and all) so the only time I would pray was when I was forced into a bad situation. Or a bad situation happened. Only praying when bad things happen, really limited the meaning of love and accepting God into this life.

Now since knowing there is God, I willingly pray when I am joyous, sad, mad, happy and any other emotion or non emotion that comes over me. Now I pray to God at any time of the day and night. And love doing it. I ask for guidance over the smallest of situations. Knowing that God has nothing to do with any formality inside the bible other than going to church. Every formality outside of going to church was instilled by self-righteous people. People try to control, God guides. People suck the life out of everyday life, God puts life back into everyday life. Knowing that God seeks peace. Knowing that God is all fair and understanding + accepting to everyone of us. I believe I know God. Not saying I know everything or even very little about God. Just saying I do indeed believe in the truth that I know without a doubt there is a God.

again, it sounds like you are just saying that you believe in God out of pure wishful thinking. it is nicer for you to believe in God than for you not to believe in God, so you choose to believe because it feels nice. this immediately evokes a parallel to drug abuse, in my mind; for an addict, imbibing a drug feels better than not imbibing that drug, so they decide to do it because it feels nice, regardless of whether it is an objectively wise decision.
Why do people become addicts? Why do they feel they need to bend their minds to make them more complete, dispite knowing that it may do the body harm? It's not about feeling better; if it was, they wouldn't harm the body, would they? Because health is the only real "feeling good". To say drug addiction is about feeling good is a cop-out to avoid looking at the real problems.

You're not too far off, though. Why do people use drugs? Why do people have invisible friends? Both the need of the addict and the need of the religious person are described in the same symbol in astrology --the planet Neptune, the planet of the Imagination. Neptune describes wish-fulfillment, illusions, and self-deceit; it also describes visions, dreams and aspirations. The person lost in hallucination and the person experiencing a religious communion with god are both described in the same symbol. What do they have in common? An ability to reach for and utilize the subconscious or unconscious mind, either with self-control or not. The hallicinator and the drug addict are not in control of their subjective experiences, the former has even surrendered control to forces outside of himself; the religious person and the child with an invisible friend retain control of the experience. The latter are learning to use their imagination constructively and with conscious intent.

Cool I had a similar experience, it was after I had committed a (trivial but selfless none the less) act of kindness towards a stranger. I can only describe the feeling as the most powerfull thing I have ever felt. It lasted less than a micro second (well, an extreamly miniscule length of time anyway - I didn't have my stop watch on so I can't be precise :p ) but took weeks to fade away - like when you switch on a light bulb in the dark and the image burns away even with your eyes closed. The details surrounding this encounter are, for want of a better word,: ridiculous - however I think that because my beleif is so fragile, it is all the more special.

I do not beleive in an afterlife - I see no reason why there should be one, also like the quotted post, I was not 'told' of one. All I know for sure from this event is that 'god' places the responsibillity for our lives in our hands alone - I'm fat because I eat, not because of my job or parents or anything else. This responsibillity, I believe (through my own reasoning, not from my encounter) extends further, and that we - the more fortunate - have a responsibility to those who are less well off.

Also I'd like to make the point that just because you beleive there is a god, it doesn't nessecarily follow that your life then has a purpose or greater significance. God may not have a plan, heck they may not even be all-powerfull.
I had a similar experience when I was 15. I didn't relate it to god or religion at all until almost 20 years later. That was when I started getting interested in religion as a topic, in conjuction with mythology. It's kind of odd to realise you suddenly understand something you've known most of your life.

I don't believe in a god that has a plan or interferes in life in any way. It's nice to think that god will take care of us and make everything work out swell, or to assign his presence to special things coincidences, but that's more a statement about what we need. I think the divine's only purpose is creation. It's what we see going on around us each moment of the present. Some people feel that that implies a conscious will and an intellect for the divine --fine, but I think it's as natural as any other part of nature.

but to sit back and ask strangers to write a few short paragraphs to "convince me." that's insulting.
When a Person is describing their Faith, their beliefs, then is told that they are not "Living Life to the Fullest" that is a personal attack.
Just a quick official note: I would not categorize it as an insult or a personal attack. At least, not from a Moderator point-of-view. It might be disrespectful, but not a personal attack (so long as you're not deliberately trying to provoke someone).

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

...

Okay, speaking unofficially, now....

Bottle, but it sounds like you're asking for proof of (or evidence in favor of concluding) the existence of God (and correct me if I'm wrong). None can prove that God exists. None can prove that God doesn't exist. Thus, all we have is hope and faith. If God does exist, then in hope we find salvation. If God doesn't exist, then hope is merely wishful thinking.

The first letter of Saint Paul to the Corinthians
Chapter 15, Verses 13 through 19
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PZK.HTM

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, 6 your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

God is merely a crutch for people who can't handle reality

God is merely a crutch for people who can't handle reality
i don't think it is reasonable to reduce it to that level. many scientists, people whose very careers are based on studying reality, believe in God. i think God is one way of handling reality, a way that works for some people and not for others. whether or not it is the best way to go about that is subjective, but it is clearly one means of coping with reality.

.
Bottle, but it sounds like you're asking for proof of (or evidence in favor of concluding) the existence of God (and correct me if I'm wrong). None can prove that God exists. None can prove that God doesn't exist. Thus, all we have is hope and faith. If God does exist, then in hope we find salvation. If God doesn't exist, then hope is merely wishful thinking.

no, actually i am not looking for proof of God's existence. in fact, my entire religious orientation is founded upon my belief that no human being can possibly know whether or not there is a God, so looking for proof of God's existence is a ludicrous endevor (in my opinion). my interest is in the motives people have for choosing to believe in God, which i believe are often founded on logical falacies, misinformation, or personal emotional issues. whether or not there actually IS a God does not impact my view on this subject...it is possible to hold a correct belief for the wrong reasons, after all, and i believe that one's motivation and thinking process on this subject are the only thing that matters because the conclusion (God-belief or disbelief) cannot be proven or disproven.

no, actually i am not looking for proof of God's existence. in fact, my entire religious orientation is founded upon my belief that no human being can possibly know whether or not there is a God, so looking for proof of God's existence is a ludicrous endevor (in my opinion). my interest is in the motives people have for choosing to believe in God, which i believe are often founded on logical falacies, misinformation, or personal emotional issues. whether or not there actually IS a God does not impact my view on this subject...it is possible to hold a correct belief for the wrong reasons, after all, and i believe that one's motivation and thinking process on this subject are the only thing that matters because the conclusion (God-belief or disbelief) cannot be proven or disproven.
The study of Mythology provided me with a logical symbolic framework in which to understand the symbol "God" that people create and abstract onto the world to represent the experiencial force/feeling/thing that they encounter. Perhaps you can use that same study to find the answers you seek.

no, actually i am not looking for proof of God's existence. in fact, my entire religious orientation is founded upon my belief that no human being can possibly know whether or not there is a God, so looking for proof of God's existence is a ludicrous endevor (in my opinion). my interest is in the motives people have for choosing to believe in God, which i believe are often founded on logical falacies, misinformation, or personal emotional issues. whether or not there actually IS a God does not impact my view on this subject...it is possible to hold a correct belief for the wrong reasons, after all, and i believe that one's motivation and thinking process on this subject are the only thing that matters because the conclusion (God-belief or disbelief) cannot be proven or disproven.
Yes it is.
However, for a reason to be wrong, there must be a correct reason.
For instance, lets say that Cog, hates Icecream, I say he is wrong-Icecream is good.
He says no, it is fattening and full dyes and carbs having little to no nutritional value, "Skib" he says "Your belief that Icecream is good is based on a fallacy, on pretense of taste, which relative-where as the nutritional value is objective."(I think I placed those words right) "Therefore" he says "Your belief that Icecream is good, is incorrect."
Does that change my opinion?
Does it even affect how approach my Belief?
No, because the question was not based on a provable thing.
You can not prove something is good, or bad-not by using pure logic-good and bad do not exist in pure logic.
Faith by its very nature defys logic, so every reason anyone has for believing in God falls under your belief that it is based on a fallacy-Logic can never apply to faith.
Once it becomes Logical to believe to belive something-Faith is no longer a requirement.
I do not need faith to know if I step off my roof I will fall.
It requires Faith to remove your ideas of self importance and realize that you the individual are not the greatest thing in the universe, God is.
A long time before you or I were sh!ting our pants great thinkers on both sides of this arguement realized that it was impossible to resolve because does not apply.