NationStates Jolt Archive

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=8&u=/ap/20041111/ap_on_re_as/japan_submarine_chase

Thats a story about an unidentified submarine that entered into Japanese waters for approximatly 2 hours today (Thursday).

I think that it was either China, or POSSIBLY North Korea. Either country could have been testing how close a sub could get to launch a missile and attack Japan. OR it was just a misunderstanding. The sub could have possibly got off track, although with todays technology and GPS, its hard to do that.

North Korea can't afford subs good enough to get that close undetected. I think its almost definitely Chinese, with a tiny outside chance its a stray Russian.

North Korea can't afford subs good enough to get that close undetected.

Well, with the North Koreans you never know. After all they are supporting a Nuclear program that is possibly producing nuclear arms.

This will surely make things interesting . . .

The chinese might be using one of their diesel-electric subs. I believe they have some soviet style Kilos. Not sure though. Probably just probing Japanese waters for fun.

Too bad the Japanese don't have all of their great anime technology. Then they'd have no problem taking care of the unidentified sub. :D

But yeah, it was most likely the Chinese.

The chinese might be using one of their diesel-electric subs. I believe they have some soviet style Kilos. Not sure though. Probably just probing Japanese waters for fun.

More like a nuclear sub. A diesel-electric would be easier to find and catch.

I say its the sould of long dead pirates who killed the crew of a sub and are now on the loose, causing much havoc.

More like a nuclear sub. A diesel-electric would be easier to find and catch.

I would agree that it was nuclear. The Japanese thouht it was nuclear by the sounds it was making. I'm also pretty sure that it was Chinese now, after carefully reading the article.

Bump.

It could have been a sub from NK, just testing how close it could get undetected.

I think that it was either China, or POSSIBLY North Korea. Either country could have been testing how close a sub could get to launch a missile and attack Japan. OR it was just a misunderstanding. The sub could have possibly got off track, although with todays technology and GPS, its hard to do that.
More probably China. I don't think NK has that capability (it's much harder to make a sub than a nuclear weapon). Possibly testing the Japanese or simply got lost (it can happen, GPS is useless under water). In any case, since subs are the best guarded secret for any military, no one is going to come forward.

Possibly testing the Japanese or simply got lost

But what reason do they have for testing Japanese, that is going to be a big question to come.

I demand a US pre-emptive strike against N-Korea and China.

But what reason do they have for testing Japanese, that is going to be a big question to come.
Why not? All countries do it, trying to get the other side to reveal its secrets. It's not even a big deal.

Too bad the Japanese don't have all of their great anime technology. Then they'd have no problem taking care of the unidentified sub. :D

But yeah, it was most likely the Chinese.

They're probably looked for Godzilla. :D

Yeah, they just want to see what their capabilities are.

More like a nuclear sub. A diesel-electric would be easier to find and catch.

Nuclear subs are actually noisier...the reactor cooling system always makes a lot of unwanted noise. Diesel-electrics, especially at low speeds, can almost be undetectable.

Maybe it was Osama? :p

I don't think it's a good idea to underestimate North Korea at this point. They are the most belligerant nation in that region as well.

You're all wrong.

It was aliens, obviously.

The japs should have just called it a sea monster and watched the tourist dollars come pouring in.

The japs should have just called it a sea monster and watched the tourist dollars come pouring in.

Thats a good idea :P

You're all wrong. The Brits sold Canada another sub with technical problems, and they can't navigate properly. Not wanting to embarass the navy, the crew's tring to find it's way home, but ended up a wee bit off course. I just hope they don't land in North Korea (That's along a coast, right?). Maybe they could hit Australia by accident: Unexpected vacation for everyone!

Last I checked, China has a weak navy. I'm not even sure if they have nuclear powered subs (I could be wrong)

Russia maybe? But, how often are they running theirs?

Could be a US boat testing some new gear or simply got lost.

I think it most likely a russian sub.
I think its quite likely it could have also been a North Korean one.

one source I read indicated that a Chinese submarine rescue vessel was in the area as well... which may very well indicate a big problem for the submarine

which it would seem is Chinese if the Chinese has a submarine rescue vessel in the area.

one source I read indicated that a Chinese submarine rescue vessel was in the area as well... which may very well indicate a big problem for the submarine

which it would seem is Chinese if the Chinese has a submarine rescue vessel in the area.

The article said that there was one, along with another type of ship, but they were about 600 miles away from where the sub was spotted.

More like a nuclear sub. A diesel-electric would be easier to find and catch.

Think you're mistaken here. A diesel-electric submarine like the Russian Tango or Kilo running on batteries alone (eg. most of the time when they're not recharging their battery using the diesel engine) is far quieter than most classes of nuclear-powered submarines (SSN or SSBN) running at the same speed. Of course, the nuclear submarine would have much greater endurance.

Last I checked, China has a weak navy. I'm not even sure if they have nuclear powered subs (I could be wrong)

You're quiet wrong in this regard. The Chinese Navy (technically the naval branch of the Army) has at least two Han class SSN nuclear-powered submarines.
Plus what is beleived to be one Xia class SSBN strategic missile ballastic submarine carrying 12 JL-1 SLBM nuclear-armed ballastic missiles.
I ain't even mentioning the new Type-094 SSBN and Type-093 SSN hulls that are rumored to have been launched earlier this year.

Could be a US boat testing some new gear or simply got lost.

A US Navy submarine accidentally ramed another ship while surfacing off the coast of Hawai a couple of years ago (about 2000 I think). That shows how incompetent US submarine service is, unable to operate safely even in a peace time environment.

A US Navy submarine accidentally ramed another ship while surfacing off the coast of Hawai a couple of years ago (about 2000 I think). That shows how incompetent US submarine service is, unable to operate safely even in a peace time environment.

Just trying to get that extra punch in there on the US, eh? Eagles bite back, you know.

another realy remote almost impossable possabilty is Iran. iran has a large desial sub force and a desial is more of a threat then a nuke (noice wise). but they would need to refuel several time's most likely. so little worry that thats what it was
Last I checked, China has a weak navy. I'm not even sure if they have nuclear powered subs (I could be wrong)

Russia maybe? But, how often are they running theirs?

Could be a US boat testing some new gear or simply got lost.
i doubt it was us espicialy if it made the news

china's sub fleet is formidable but thier nuke subs are easy to find due to noise (akin to 1970's ussr tech)

A US Navy submarine accidentally ramed another ship while surfacing off the coast of Hawai a couple of years ago (about 2000 I think). That shows how incompetent US submarine service is, unable to operate safely even in a peace time environment.
take it from some one that serves in the us sub force, what happend in Hawai was mostly due to politics. what with having all those civies in control to the point it hinderd comm.'s between watch stations. its hard enough some times to get work done with out them. these run's for tours and vips realy suck for all aboard

Uhh... I do believe Japan made an official complaint against China.

(How did this go so long while I missed it?)

Lots of little stuff to clear up here.

First, to my knowledge, the sub has been marked as Chinese nuclear submarine by it's sonar signature.

Yes. (http://japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=318699) A "strong protest" has been registered with the Chinese embassy in Tokyo.

Sinodefense.com (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/default.asp) says China has 30+ Romeros, 19 Mings, 3 Songs, and 4 kilos.

Nuclear subs are quieter than diesels because diesels use batteries when submerged, and thus have fewer movbing parts.

The intrusion is not altogether surprising. There have been growing tensions between Japan, China, and Taiwan over the Senkaku (or Diaoyutai) islands (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/SenkakuI1.asp). Sucha as last Novembers incursion by a Chinese Ming class submarine and Januarys alleged attack by Japanese Maritime Self Defense Forces patrol boats on Chinese fishing boats. Look here (http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=395&issue_id=2905&article_id=23509) for more details.

Re the "ramming" incident by the US sub: that was the the USS Greeneville. It occured in Febuary 2001. The sub was practicing an "emergency ballast blow" in an area heavily traveled by subs. There were two VIP civilians, being given a tour, at watch stations on the bridge. The sub surfaced undserneath the Ehime Maru, a Japanese fisheries training ship, sinking it. For lots of details, check here (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/specials/ehimearchive/).

Nuclear subs are quieter than diesels because diesels use batteries when submerged, and thus have fewer movbing parts.

The other way around, you mean ;)

The other way around, you mean ;)

the most recent generation of diesel electric subs are quieter than most nuclear subs submerged because the nuclear subs have to keep their water pumps running at all times to circulate cooling water for the reactor..... only the most recent US, Russian (Akula class) and European SSNs and SSBNs have gotten around that problem with improved technology.....

The PRC last time I checked had 4 SSNs and 1 SSBN which are noisy as hell and easy to track...... now if this one got all the way to the southern edge of the Ryuykus without being tagged by a USN or Japanese sub I would be surprised, but its possible. The Japanese probably waited until they had a good contact to complain about it publically (once it was clearly in Japanese waters).

Probably we are looking at the same kind of stuff that happened in the Cold War, a return to Blind Mans Bluff or Hunt for Red October stuff, with our (Western Subs) shadowing the potential bad guys to learn everything there is to learn and the Chinese are trying to get into the game now too. (by probing Western defenses)

$25 bucks says it was a Chinese owned Kilo, that's the only boat that could do it and the only reasonable choice. Besides, both nations hate eachother.

A US Navy submarine accidentally ramed another ship while surfacing off the coast of Hawai a couple of years ago (about 2000 I think). That shows how incompetent US submarine service is, unable to operate safely even in a peace time environment.
OMG, please if it isn't hard post something intelligent. The US sub force is quite competent. In case you didn't know, there was an average of 1 sub collision a year duing much of the Cold War. It was usually the result of trailing too closely in another sub's baffles and at an unsafe depth. (the collisions went down after the mid-70's when subs were instructed to not be at the same depth as the subs they followed.

As for the Japanese trawler, it was stopped and making no noise. The Greenville did an emergency blow maneuver at high speed and in addition to the blow, they also ordered full up on the fairwater planes. The trawler made no noise with it's engines stopped making passive detection impossible. Navy doctrine rightfully so discourages active SONAR usage as it gives you away. Plus it is to be noted that civilians were at the helm for what was suppose to be a few hours of showing the ship off to distinguished guests. That is hardly the result of a bad Navy and more the result of the simple fact that if you don't make noise we can't detect you.

The other way around, you mean ;)

Doh! Yes. The dangers of posting at 1:20 on a Saturday night.

Probably we are looking at the same kind of stuff that happened in the Cold War, a return to Blind Mans Bluff or Hunt for Red October stuff, with our (Western Subs) shadowing the potential bad guys to learn everything there is to learn and the Chinese are trying to get into the game now too. (by probing Western defenses)

Unlikely. The jockeying of the cold war was quite different.
This is most likely to be related to China's claim to the disputed Senkaku islands, much like the posturing that's been going on overy the Spratly islands in the South China Sea. Japan officially claimed the Senkakus in 1996, and there were tensions over them before then.
(I'm sure JiangGuo would like to comment on this.... :))

I know that many governments practice the lets see how close we can get approach, just to let another country know they are there. I know someone who is on a small navy vessel and they would constantly go to far in to provoke a warning. This time China probably just got to close for comfort.

Unlikely. The jockeying of the cold war was quite different.
This is most likely to be related to China's claim to the disputed Senkaku islands, much like the posturing that's been going on overy the Spratly islands in the South China Sea. Japan officially claimed the Senkakus in 1996, and there were tensions over them before then.
(I'm sure JiangGuo would like to comment on this.... :))

seems risky though, as at least the Spratlys have the value of having oil under them.... I don't know of any such discoveries in Senkakus... o why risk it? I think they may simply have screwed up and got detected.

maybe just a malfunctioning Japanese Sub
that would be funny

$25 bucks says it was a Chinese owned Kilo, that's the only boat that could do it and the only reasonable choice. Besides, both nations hate eachother.

It was a nuclear submarine owned by China. On official complaint has been made by Japan, but ultimately nothing will come of it as China can do as it pleases. China will continue to do whatever it wishes because what can we do about it? Nothing, and they know it.

Secondly, to clear a few things up. A nuclear submarine is quieter than a diesel-electric and can run faster without being detected than a diesel. So can we stop this debate please.

Its korea.Lets nuke em.I hate them anyway

seems risky though, as at least the Spratlys have the value of having oil under them.... I don't know of any such discoveries in Senkakus... o why risk it? I think they may simply have screwed up and got detected.

Both countries have long term claims to the islands, so national pride is a big factor.

And in addition, there are questions of fishing rights. There may be oil as well, which helped set the whoe thing off.
This issue remain quiet through the 1950s and 1960s probably because the these small uninhabited islands held little interests for the three countries.

The Diaoyu Islands issue had not been raised until ECAFE (United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East) suggested possible large hydrocarbon deposit in the waters off Diaoyutai in 1969 (actually, no oil has ever been found and no systematic search for oil has yet been carried out). In 1970, the U.S. and Japan signed the Okinawa Reversion Treaty which included Diaoyu Islands as part of Okinawa to be returned to Japanese rule. This Treaty was immediately challenged by both ROC (Taiwan) and PRC (mainland China). The dispute came into the open when the Japanese government delivered a note to the ROC government stating that its bids to exploit the oil potential around the island were not valid. (http://www.american.edu/projects/mandala/TED/ice/DIAOYU.HTM)

Both countries have long term claims to the islands, so national pride is a big factor.

And in addition, there are questions of fishing rights. There may be oil as well, which helped set the whoe thing off.


I didn't know about the potential value of the chain, or the history. But if the PRC is pushing over something that relatively valueless compared to the risks then maybe we really need to keep a closer eye on them.

More EP3 flights anyone?

I didn't know about the potential value of the chain, or the history. But if the PRC is pushing over something that relatively valueless compared to the risks then maybe we really need to keep a closer eye on them.

More EP3 flights anyone?

They're making a push on nationalistic grounds. Nationalism is making a big upswing in the PRC, and a lot of it is being focused on Japan. IMHO, it's a combination of the government trying to distract the populace and the increasing wealth.

the most recent generation of diesel electric subs are quieter than most nuclear subs submerged because the nuclear subs have to keep their water pumps running at all times to circulate cooling water for the reactor..... only the most recent US, Russian (Akula class) and European SSNs and SSBNs have gotten around that problem with improved technology.....

I know. He made a typo... See also:

Nuclear subs are actually noisier...the reactor cooling system always makes a lot of unwanted noise. Diesel-electrics, especially at low speeds, can almost be undetectable.

:)

Secondly, to clear a few things up. A nuclear submarine is quieter than a diesel-electric and can run faster without being detected than a diesel. So can we stop this debate please.
Untrue. A nuke boat is faster, but at slow speeds and on battery, a diesel will quieter than any nuke boat. The problem is that a diesel has to recharge and snorkel, at which point they are very loud.

It could've been a diesel and I bet it was. If it was one of the Chinese Han SSNs then it wouldn't have gotten within 100 miles of the coast

Well at least they didn't tell Japan to move out of the way.

It could've been a diesel and I bet it was. If it was one of the Chinese Han SSNs then it wouldn't have gotten within 100 miles of the coast

As I saids above, it's already been ID as a nuclear sub, probably a Han class.

The submarine is thought to be one of the Han-class -- China's first nuclear submarines, which became fully operational in the 1980s -- based on an analysis of the noise made by its propeller, agency sources have said.
Kyodo News (http://home.kyodo.co.jp/all/display.jsp?an=20041112075)