NationStates Jolt Archive

Why are some Christians so authoritarian when God is libertarian? This question may not have crossed any of your minds, but it has been on my mind for some time now. A little background....

God is omniscient and omnipotent.

Therefore, God could see all of the horrible screwups we would make, like genocide, Britney Spears, etc. Also, God could have fixed the world so that the bad stuff never happened.

However...

God gave humans free will, despite the billions of deaths and all the suffering and the Earth being raped.

So if God decided that our freedom was worth the most horrible of prices for billions of people, who the hell are we to say different? Who the hell are we to try to take away the freedoms of others when that freedom is a gift from a God who knows best?

Thus spake the proud American Libertarian voter.

read the old testament, then read stuff about paul, then read what church 90% of all churches split from, theres your answer

God doesn't feel the need to obey the Bible to the letter

God could see all of the horrible screwups we would make, like...Britney Spears, etc.
LOL :D

Not all Christians are authoritarian. And a lot of things in the bible are. It all depends on interpretation.

Many Christians even refuse to be consistent on this. On issues of sexuality especially, they are perfectly willing to say that their notions of sin must be enforced by law. But if you point out that Christ appeared to support helping the poor and to be generally non-capitalist, the reply is often that He wanted people to choose charity themselves and not have wealth redistribution and welfare in law.

Why are Christians so authoritarian when God is libertarian? This question may not have crossed any of your minds, but it has been on my mind for some time now. A little background....

God is omniscient and omnipotent.

Therefore, God could see all of the horrible screwups we would make, like genocide, Britney Spears, etc. Also, God could have fixed the world so that the bad stuff never happened.

However...

God gave humans free will, despite the billions of deaths and all the suffering and the Earth being raped.

So if God decided that our freedom was worth the most horrible of prices for billions of people, who the hell are we to say different? Who the hell are we to try to take away the freedoms of others when that freedom is a gift from a God who knows best?

Thus spake the proud American Libertarian voter.

Well, if you go in for all that Christian mythology, I guess...though I must admit, I didn't think God was an authoritarian, or a libertarian, or any other sort of '-arian'. I thought God just sort of...was, or is, what I mean to say is...exists(?)

To paraphrase Jim Kirk, 'What does God need with an ideology?'

god was authoritarian, read the old testament. you were either with god or you were dead...

Not all Christians are authoritarian. And a lot of things in the bible are. It all depends on interpretation.

ALL christians are authoritarian and hateful. Christians all beleive in the same things including everything in the bible. If you are not a christian like they are, you are sinful, evil and going straight to hell. They only help others when they want god and other christians to think they are good and worthy. Christian love means they love only christians and hate everyone else. That is a solid fact which has been re-confirmed over the last 2000 years.

god was authoritarian, read the old testament. you were either with god or you were dead...

Exactly, Deuteronomy hardly reads like a Libertarian primer...

god was authoritarian, read the old testament. you were either with god or you were dead...

Chess Squares, is your answer to everything 'read the old testament'? I've seen it coming from you at least twice, now...

You should be cautious, Texan Hotrodders...saying that all Christians are authoritarian is not only false, but proves the complaints of Christians on this forum who feel they are being attacked for their beliefs.

Christianity emconpasses a huge variety of people, ideas, and cultures; it quite literally spans the globe, both physically and ideologically. It encompasses everything from the American "Christian Right," the extremely vocal, socially heavily authoritarian group you are most likely referring to, to liberation theologists, whose views are highly progressive, if not libertarian (in the small-l sense). The Christians I know span the range; from my cousin who is a "born-again" diehard Bush supporter, to one of my good friends who is a very committed Christain, as well as one of the most energized liberal activists I've ever encountered.

Now, as to the group you are rightly referring to, I myself cannot comprehend their position either. The Old Testament was highly authoritarian in nature, but I am under the impression that it was made mostly irrelevant by the birth, teachings, and eventual martyrdom of Jesus, who was, if anything, essentially a socialist; all of his teachings revolved around the responsibility of those who are capable to help those who are in need, to eschew the life of personal gains for that of aiding others, and, most of all, to give and promote in others unconditional love. These messages, central to a Christianity based in the New Testament, seem lost on the angry, vocal members of the "Christian Right."

Then again, I am a Pagan, and as such do not know Christian principles inside and out; I can only speculate given what I do know (a fair amount, but I'm certainly no Bible scholar).

Trampus: Your statement is shown false by the fact that many Christians I know, who know I am a Pagan, believe wholeheartedly that I will still enter heaven no matter my beliefs, so long as I live a good life.

Chess Squares, is your answer to everything 'read the old testament'? I've seen it coming from you at least twice, now...
well we are in a bible thread talkngi about god and authoritarianism. god is almost ONLY discussed in the old testament and it answers the questions presented here so YES THAT IS MY DAMN AMSWER TO EVERYTHING

You should be cautious, Texan Hotrodders...saying that all Christians are authoritarian is not only false, but proves the complaints of Christians on this forum who feel they are being attacked for their beliefs.

Christianity emconpasses a huge variety of people, ideas, and cultures; it quite literally spans the globe, both physically and ideologically. It encompasses everything from the American "Christian Right," the extremely vocal, socially heavily authoritarian group you are most likely referring to, to liberation theologists, whose views are highly progressive, if not libertarian (in the small-l sense). The Christians I know span the range; from my cousin who is a "born-again" diehard Bush supporter, to one of my good friends who is a very committed Christain, as well as one of the most energized liberal activists I've ever encountered.

Now, as to the group you are rightly referring to, I myself cannot comprehend their position either. The Old Testament was highly authoritarian in nature, but I am under the impression that it was made mostly irrelevant by the birth, teachings, and eventual martyrdom of Jesus, who was, if anything, essentially a socialist; all of his teachings revolved around the responsibility of those who are capable to help those who are in need, to eschew the life of personal gains for that of aiding others, and, most of all, to give and promote in others unconditional love. These messages, central to a Christianity based in the New Testament, seem lost on the angry, vocal members of the "Christian Right."

Then again, I am a Pagan, and as such do not know Christian principles inside and out; I can only speculate given what I do know (a fair amount, but I'm certainly no Bible scholar).
born again = protestant nutcase

ALL christians are authoritarian and hateful. Christians all beleive in the same things including everything in the bible. If you are not a christian like they are, you are sinful, evil and going straight to hell. They only help others when they want god and other christians to think they are good and worthy. Christian love means they love only christians and hate everyone else. That is a solid fact which has been re-confirmed over the last 2000 years.

All of us are authoritarian? That's news to me. I was pretty sure I was a libertarian.

You should be cautious, Texan Hotrodders...saying that all Christians are authoritarian is not only false, but proves the complaints of Christians on this forum who feel they are being attacked for their beliefs.

Oh, fine. I edited my post. Are you happy now?

ALL christians are authoritarian and hateful. Christians all beleive in the same things including everything in the bible. If you are not a christian like they are, you are sinful, evil and going straight to hell. They only help others when they want god and other christians to think they are good and worthy. Christian love means they love only christians and hate everyone else. That is a solid fact which has been re-confirmed over the last 2000 years.

Dude, that's flamebait if I ever saw it. Quit with the absolutes while you're ahead, not all Christians are authoritarian or hateful. Just like not all (fill in the blank) are (fill in the blank) or (fill in the blank). Or you, for that matter.

Lemme see now...look, I'll draw from my own religious upbringing: If they draw a circle to shut you OUT, why don't you draw a circle to draw them IN? Beats the hell outta beating your chest and telling other people what they think and feel, dontcha think?

Think peaceful thoughts...peaceful thoughts...ahhhhhhh. There you go. Better now?

well we are in a bible thread talkngi about god and authoritarianism. god is almost ONLY discussed in the old testament and it answers the questions presented here so YES THAT IS MY DAMN AMSWER TO EVERYTHING

Tsk-tsk, temper, Chess Squares. Don't get upset, I'm just talking w/you, not coming at you with an icepick...!

Oh, fine. I edited my post. Are you happy now?
Quite, thank you.

Because The Empire of Presidency seeks to supplant God and ultimatly rule the universe.

God gave humans free will, despite the billions of deaths and all the suffering and the Earth being raped.
One of the consequences of libertarianism is the Earth being raped.

The Bible is the best selling book of all time....I wonder if the world would be a better place if "Gone with the Wind" was the book everyone based their lives on....food for thought.....

Here is another concept to consider....

If someone raised you to believe that the sky is yellow and then as you became an adult...someone came along and said, "no, the sky is blue." What would you do.? All your life you were told (and believed) that the sky was yellow...being told that it is a different color would be wrong to you, would it not?? Hence the belief systems of certain religious groups.....weird concept, I realize that.....but the basics are there.....

Had to throw my 2 cents into the conversation......

Blessings Bright and Dark,
Lady Elaine HM the Queen

ALL christians are authoritarian and hateful. Christians all beleive in the same things including everything in the bible. If you are not a christian like they are, you are sinful, evil and going straight to hell. They only help others when they want god and other christians to think they are good and worthy. Christian love means they love only christians and hate everyone else. That is a solid fact which has been re-confirmed over the last 2000 years.

I'm not sure what experiences you've had with so-called "Christians," but that's not a good generalization. The people who think they are perfect and everyone else is flawed are the ones who aren't Christians because they don't get it. If I weren't evil and sinful (probably moreso than you) then I wouldn't need Jesus to help me with anything. I'm sorry for any wrong ideas my so called "brothers" and/or "sisters" gave you

If america ever enforces law for everyone to be a good christian, im moving to canada. All that shit is so unrealistic. So theres this giant invisible man in the sky watching everything you do and say. He has a list of 10 things you must NEVER, EVER DO and if you DO do them he will send you to HELL TO BURN FOR ALL ETERNITY WITH NEVERENDING SUFFERING AND AGONY. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs the money. :sniper:\

Edit: Moral system my ass, bush is a "good christian" and look at all the families hes raped over from 9/11 and iraq.
Pansies need religion for morals, i get mine from doin things the great way and acknowledging others feelings. :sniper:

One of the consequences of libertarianism is the Earth being raped.

No. That's a consequence of human short-sightedness and the abuse of freedom.

Ver' cryptic. Well, I disagree with Trampus, I actually try to do good when other people aren't looking - central tenet of Christian belief! American "Christian" Right are heretics - they don't give a shit about the poor (no welfare, free health care…) or the environment. Born again doesn't always mean Protestant nutcase - what about Catholic nutcase like me? Wait, I'm not a nutcase… just have extremely violent tendencies… ;)

Pansies need religion for morals, i get mine from doin things the great way and acknowledging others feelings. :sniper:

Religious people often don't like "pansies" - ie: gay people (I do not use that word, BTW).

Relative morals is a "pansy" concept. I await flames…!!

Why are some Christians so authoritarian when God is libertarian? This question may not have crossed any of your minds, but it has been on my mind for some time now. A little background....

God is omniscient and omnipotent.

Therefore, God could see all of the horrible screwups we would make, like genocide, Britney Spears, etc. Also, God could have fixed the world so that the bad stuff never happened.

However...

God gave humans free will, despite the billions of deaths and all the suffering and the Earth being raped.

So if God decided that our freedom was worth the most horrible of prices for billions of people, who the hell are we to say different? Who the hell are we to try to take away the freedoms of others when that freedom is a gift from a God who knows best?

Thus spake the proud American Libertarian voter.

You do raise some valid points about how God has allowed us to follow our own paths, even when those paths lead us away from him. However, the main thrust of your post is wrong. God is not an "-ism", and you simply cannot subordinate him any sort of human ideology. Instead of trying to make God into our image, we need to seek to make ourselves into his image. Instead of insisting that God is on our side, we need to ask ourselves if we are on his side.

If someone raised you to believe that the sky is yellow and then as you became an adult...someone came along and said, "no, the sky is blue." What would you do.? All your life you were told (and believed) that the sky was yellow...being told that it is a different color would be wrong to you, would it not?? Hence the belief systems of certain religious groups.....weird concept, I realize that.....but the basics are there.....


That is a good point. A lot of people will stick with their beliefs because that's what they were told from the getgo. I, for one, to stick with the analogy, was raised never knowing what color the sky is. So I did my own research and found that it's blue. And I think that's the best way. If you're a Christian or not, fine, but find it on your own terms. Just my two cents while I'm here. :D

A lot of people see christanity in a bad light. people have and will use god to advance their own agenda. but do not make the same mistake that they do. and the reasons why god lets bad things happen are not light concepts either, god loves us enough to let us make bad choices...remeber god never makes people do things thats want love is all about-being unconditional.

also not all churches believe the same my church does not believe in the secret rapture or eternal hell, we even go to church on saturday


if you want to contact me you can at theone7885@yahoo.com

Surely hell isn't eternal, because at the very end, God is supposed to forgive everyone. That's a good thought.

Speaking as a Roman church member - Limbo is a load of rubbish - God would never do something so cruel. Shouldn't worry about what happens after death - 'cos it'll be just!

Surely hell isn't eternal, because at the very end, God is supposed to forgive everyone. That's a good thought.

Now I'm not questioning your beliefs, just curious as to where you found this information. Christian or not, I barely know squat about the Bible :D

We're authoritarian because we often feel pushed around, particularly on the internet. There's so much hostility, from so many directions, we have to act like the Alpha Males in a wolf pack and strike down our opposition, lest we be attacked (and our influence destroyed) by the very pack we seek to lead.

We are, after all, following a doctrine that we firmly believe will lead people to an existance of joy and love. But when the pack we're trying to lead suddenly begins snapping at our heels, we can't meet that with kindness and understanding, that's not a natural human reaction. The NATURAL reaction is to destroy the dissenter's self worth, and then to display how much better you are than them, thus affirming your relative positions in the pack. Thus, when it feels like an entire country has suddenly turned against you, questioning your leadership abilities, you either become authoritarian or you meander off with your tail between your legs.


Besides all that, we have led this country around by its juevos for so long, we're used to being alphas. It's...difficult to take a subservient role, especially to a group you feel has been misinformed. Like being led around a house by a blind man, even if you know that he knows where he's going, you'll still feel worried, both about his safety, and your own.


Of course, that's just my limited view on the situation, I could be misinterpretting the signals quite horribly. *shrug* It's not as though it makes a difference.

If find it bordering on intellectual laziness, if not dishonesty, to look back in history and charge any faith with the activities of others operating in the name of that faith or branded with the name by historians.

Shall we look at the activities of "pagans" and charge you with that and discount your right to participate in the debate?

Christianity is a personal faith that is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ that requires a recognition of sin and separation from God.

If you don't buy into that or don't care that you are separated then what do you care what anyone says.

The fact that societies based originally on primarily Christian principles have progressed faster than others must be given some sort of credence? The principles in both Testaments work if done right.

Today "Christianity" has lost its definition. Better to be renamed by each of the different sets of beliefs: Christ Followers, The Good Works Alone Believers, The "Hide behind the Church's Rules" Believers, The "Christian but have never read the Bible" Group etc.

Finally, what I believe to be the core of the Christ Follower's faith has got nothing to do with pretending to be perfect. The opposite, just like in the New Testament, the Christ Follower (Subsequently called Christians in Corinth I think) was someone who recognized they didn't measure up and needed Christ to fulfil the requirements laid out in the Old T.

I agree, there is no place for authoritarianism in the faith. But there is no place for sacrilege or sin either. You either follow Christ or you don't. Some days we do it better than other days.

Partial answer I know but the discussion has to start with the foundations.

god was authoritarian, read the old testament. you were either with god or you were dead...

Yes, God was authoritarian in the Old Testament. But don't forget that the New Testament both revised and outdated the Old Testament. God admitted he was an angry and jealous God, and after the Great Flood he promised mankind he would never interfere in their affairs again.

I love how some people use the Bible for their own wacked personal agendas. Try reading the WHOLE thing and not taking it out of context.

Now I'm not questioning your beliefs, just curious as to where you found this information. Christian or not, I barely know squat about the Bible :D

I fink I read it somewhere in the Bible. I'm sure it is written somewhere that God will ultimately forgive all (and that ALL will confess his name. Including Stalin and von Dracul, presumably?).

Christ Followers - cheer! :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Faith in Jesus Christ is the basis of Christianity. I hate to be exostentialist but its a simple as this; a Christian is called to emulate the character of Christ.

The Bible is the inspired word of God and cannot be disputed if you claim to be a Christian. At the end of the day, you are held accountable to what you believe. If you want to be wishy-washy and liberal that is your choice; but be prepared to accept the consequences be they good or bad.

I will agree that most Christians however are judgemental and unforgiving; hardly Christlike characteristics. A Christian should be humble like Christ is humble, loving like Chist is loving and forgiving like Christ forgives...

At the end of the day, we are all the same... Christians are no better than non-Christians... they are just saved!

I fink I read it somewhere in the Bible. I'm sure it is written somewhere that God will ultimately forgive all (and that ALL will confess his name. Including Stalin and von Dracul, presumably?).

Christ Followers - cheer! :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Yeah if you find out please let me know, I'm curious about that. From what I've read, at the end, it's a...tad...different than that.

You do raise some valid points about how God has allowed us to follow our own paths, even when those paths lead us away from him. However, the main thrust of your post is wrong. God is not an "-ism", and you simply cannot subordinate him any sort of human ideology. Instead of trying to make God into our image, we need to seek to make ourselves into his image. Instead of insisting that God is on our side, we need to ask ourselves if we are on his side.

You get to decide what the main thrust of my post is? Fascinating.

My point was not that God is Libertarian with a capital "L", but that God chose to allow us freedom, hence the use of libertarian with a small "L" in the title. I chose to inform people about why it's appropriate for me, a Christian, to be libertarian in my ideals, because quite frankly I get so tired of the nonsense I get from both the right and left about how Christians have to be authoritarian.

If find it bordering on intellectual laziness, if not dishonesty, to look back in history and charge any faith with the activities of others operating in the name of that faith or branded with the name by historians.

Shall we look at the activities of "pagans" and charge you with that and discount your right to participate in the debate?

Christianity is a personal faith that is based on a relationship with Jesus Christ that requires a recognition of sin and separation from God.

If you don't buy into that or don't care that you are separated then what do you care what anyone says.

The fact that societies based originally on primarily Christian principles have progressed faster than others must be given some sort of credence? The principles in both Testaments work if done right.

Today "Christianity" has lost its definition. Better to be renamed by each of the different sets of beliefs: Christ Followers, The Good Works Alone Believers, The "Hide behind the Church's Rules" Believers, The "Christian but have never read the Bible" Group etc.

Finally, what I believe to be the core of the Christ Follower's faith has got nothing to do with pretending to be perfect. The opposite, just like in the New Testament, the Christ Follower (Subsequently called Christians in Corinth I think) was someone who recognized they didn't measure up and needed Christ to fulfil the requirements laid out in the Old T.

I agree, there is no place for authoritarianism in the faith. But there is no place for sacrilege or sin either. You either follow Christ or you don't. Some days we do it better than other days.

Partial answer I know but the discussion has to start with the foundations.

Hey look!!!! Someone who actually knows what there talking about!!!!!!!!!
:D

God doesn't have a U.S. political affiliation; that is a stupid comparison that many people make. God isn't conservative. He isn't liberal. He isn't libertarian. He isn't populist. He isn't fascist. He isn't communist.
The Bible gives views that range over many of these spectrums. For example: give to the poor, love your fellow people, but pursue social justice and know when it is time for war.

We're authoritarian because we often feel pushed around, particularly on the internet. There's so much hostility, from so many directions, we have to act like the Alpha Males in a wolf pack and strike down our opposition, lest we be attacked (and our influence destroyed) by the very pack we seek to lead.

sheep do not lead sheep.


We are, after all, following a doctrine that we firmly believe will lead people to an existance of joy and love. But when the pack we're trying to lead suddenly begins snapping at our heels, we can't meet that with kindness and understanding, that's not a natural human reaction. The NATURAL reaction is to destroy the dissenter's self worth, and then to display how much better you are than them, thus affirming your relative positions in the pack. Thus, when it feels like an entire country has suddenly turned against you, questioning your leadership abilities, you either become authoritarian or you meander off with your tail between your legs.

except that goes against your own teachings.christ asks his followers to turn the other cheek,if you do NOT you clearly are NOT a chirstian.


Besides all that, we have led this country around by its juevos for so long, we're used to being alphas. It's...difficult to take a subservient role, especially to a group you feel has been misinformed. Like being led around a house by a blind man, even if you know that he knows where he's going, you'll still feel worried, both about his safety, and your own.

pride is a deadly sin.


Of course, that's just my limited view on the situation, I could be misinterpretting the signals quite horribly. *shrug* It's not as though it makes a difference.

it doesnt,because your a hypocrit.

except that goes against your own teachings.christ asks his followers to turn the other cheek,if you do NOT you clearly are NOT a chirstian.

Christians are Christians because we keep screwing up and we're not good enough. If we were perfect we wouldn't need anyones help. If anyone could follow Jesus' teachings to the letter then they would be the Messiah

you should probably put the word "some" in front of Christians.

it doesnt,because your a hypocrit.

Well we all are hypocrits really :rolleyes:

Why are we attacking eachother??
This isn't how Jesus taught the people thats for sure :rolleyes:
Lets try to discuss this like mature human beings :)
Not saying everyone is talking immature, just a few.

If God were a libertarian, that would be great since that would be just more thing we'd have in common, besides being University of Michigan fans. ;)


A better question is, if God is a libertarian, why does he allow his party to run strictly KOOKS as Presidential candidates?

you should probably put the word "some" in front of Christians.

Recalling that not everyone who says he/she is a Christian really is.

It probably wouldn't hurt to stop making assumptions about Christians. Namely, that we're all the stereotype you think we are.

you should probably put the word "some" in front of Christians.

I already did. I even bolded it.

Lol I'm losing track of what is directed at who

Lol I'm losing track of what is directed at who

So am I, so if I'm not sure who it's directed to, I'm ignoring it just to be safe.

Libertarian? Come join the self-ownership experiment in our country, Libertarian. (Just do a search for us).
Thus spake another proud American Libertarian voter.