NationStates Jolt Archive

Since it is veterans day what would it be like to be German on this day. I mean the western world and the current German government are against Germans who are proud of who they are and as a result dont want them to remember and honor their soldiers who fought and died for their fatherland. However personally if I was a German citizen I would be completely proud of who I am and I wouldnt hesitate to honor the german soldiers who died fighting in WWI and WWII regardless of how much the international community would be against it.

P.S: Pretty much everyone today is just remembering the ALLIED soldiers who died in the world wars, I however acknowledge both the allied and the German soldiers who died in the world wars and wish them well in their afterlife(if there is one anyway) R.I.P amen.

Yes, this was brought up a few times.

Personally, I respect the soldiers who fought against us (speaking as a Brit), and I salute them - but not their leaders.
I think that the International Community would not complain about prayers for the soldiers, but they would about the national leaders.

Personally, I respect the soldiers who fought against us (speaking as a Brit), and I salute them - but not their leaders.
I think that the International Community would not complain about prayers for the soldiers, but they would about the national leaders.


Agreed, except for the speaking as a Brit part, I'm American

Personally, I respect the soldiers who fought against us (speaking as a Brit), and I salute them - but not their leaders.
I think that the International Community would not complain about prayers for the soldiers, but they would about the national leaders.

Yeah, I agree as well. I respect anyone who fought/fights for their country, although not so much those who fought/fight for an ideal. It shouldn't matter which country a person was fighting for, they should have our respect, and be remembered, anyway.

I respect and admire all those who fought and died...though I don't respect the leaders on either side (In WW1. In WW2 justice was definitely on the side of the allies...up until Dresden and Hiroshima anyway. Actually, screw it. All the military leaders sucked. Except Patton was cool from what I hear.)

As I said in another thread, I highly recommend the German movie Stalingrad (it's subtitled).

I respect and admire all those who fought and died...though I don't respect the leaders on either side (In WW1. In WW2 justice was definitely on the side of the allies...up until Dresden and Hiroshima anyway. Actually, screw it. All the military leaders sucked. Except Patton was cool from what I hear.)

As I said in another thread, I highly recommend the German movie Stalingrad (it's subtitled).

Das Boot is also a pretty good movie which depicts the german side of the 2nd war. Though its a very long movie...

Since it is veterans day what would it be like to be German on this day. I mean the western world and the current German government are against Germans who are proud of who they are and as a result dont want them to remember and honor their soldiers who fought and died for their fatherland. However personally if I was a German citizen I would be completely proud of who I am and I wouldnt hesitate to honor the german soldiers who died fighting in WWI and WWII regardless of how much the international community would be against it.

P.S: Pretty much everyone today is just remembering the ALLIED soldiers who died in the world wars, I however acknowledge both the allied and the German soldiers who died in the world wars and wish them well in their afterlife(if there is one anyway) R.I.P amen.

My neighbour downstairs from me served in the German military in the last months of WWII, guarding a burned-out, destroyed 'pillbox' on the coastline near Danzig/Gdansk with his fellow schoolmates. He was fifteen years old. A couple of his friends got scared, knowing the Russians were approaching from the east, and fled on foot, only to be murdered soon thereafterby German officers for desertion. He has no pride in anything German, and in fact has never returned after emigrating to Canada in the 1950s.

He feels there is nothing for Germany or Germans to celebrate - but much to atone for. I didn't feel comfortable discussing his experiences, but allowed him instead to tell me all he cared to.

Das Boot is also a pretty good movie which depicts the german side of the 2nd war. Though its a very long movie...

I've seen that, years ago. Don't remember a whole lot of it, unfortunately.

Anyone that has the guts to to fight in a war deserves some sort of props. It doesn't matter if they are an American soldier, Iraqi insurgent, terrorist, or nazi. They just have something that most people don't.

We celebrate 11th November as Armistice Day (at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, you'll hear our National Radio observe a minute's silence 'for all the fallen in all (world)wars.' (There is another day, Anzac Day, when we especially commemorate our own dead soldiery & other personnel (nurses for example) who fell during wars.) This year, we officially interred 'The Unknown Warrior' in a State funeral (some person who fell during the 1st World War and who has never been able to be identified.)

As someone born after the end of the 2nd WW, I like the inclusiveness of Armistice Day: sure, it refers to the end of WW2 - but it isnt limited to that, and it isnt limited to our own dead. I remember those some of the elders of my family fought against, as well as those fallen elders, and - especially - all the noncombatants who died.

Kia ora.

Since it is veterans day what would it be like to be German on this day. I mean the western world and the current German government are against Germans who are proud of who they are and as a result dont want them to remember and honor their soldiers who fought and died for their fatherland. However personally if I was a German citizen I would be completely proud of who I am and I wouldnt hesitate to honor the german soldiers who died fighting in WWI and WWII regardless of how much the international community would be against it.

P.S: Pretty much everyone today is just remembering the ALLIED soldiers who died in the world wars, I however acknowledge both the allied and the German soldiers who died in the world wars and wish them well in their afterlife(if there is one anyway) R.I.P amen.
Well written, as an American I will point out, it isn't the soldiers who deserve to be condmened, it is the leaders who made the soldiers so hated. My respect will stop short of those who worked the Nazi death camps though. That was optional duty and those bastards should've spoken up or refused to do the work. As for the other WWII German soldiers, they were the victims of their government.

In my opinion, we were on the wrong side in WWI... though neither side was really "right."

It was probably the most pointless war in history. Too many good men died because of the petty squabbles of their national leaders. It's too bad that many people, at least it seems to me, today do not recognize what is behind Veteran's Day, November 11th.

Well written, as an American I will point out, it isn't the soldiers who deserve to be condmened, it is the leaders who made the soldiers so hated. My respect will stop short of those who worked the Nazi death camps though. That was optional duty and those bastards should've spoken up or refused to do the work. As for the other WWII German soldiers, they were the victims of their government.

No, it wasn't really optional. My Grandfather, who was Lithuanian and taken as a slave, worked to build addons to a small staging point (read: corral) enroute to Auschwitz. He got to know some of the soldiers there and they loathed it, most were unable to deal with seeing those people being taken away...(they didn't know what was going to happen to them, but they assumed correctly considering their conditions). Some blanked it out and began thinking of them as nameless and faceless...others collapsed psychologically and some committed suicide. Most were young boys. (My grandfather was 15 or 16 at the time, and they weren't much older than he.) This was in '44, by the way.

I'm not sure what it was like in the actual camps, but i'm sure it wasn't totally voluntary considering the secrecy of them. No-one knew for sure what went on there.

I'm not sure what it was like in the actual camps, but i'm sure it wasn't totally voluntary considering the secrecy of them. No-one knew for sure what went on there.
The actual in camp people were there voluntarily as they were part of the SS. They were the ones loyal to Hitler and his genocidal policies of horrible murder. They weren't the conscripted soldiers or the people like your grandfather working in the camps. The people working in the camps were the lowest form of life imaginable, the SS bastards.

Anyone that has the guts to to fight in a war deserves some sort of props. It doesn't matter if they are an American soldier, Iraqi insurgent, terrorist, or nazi. They just have something that most people don't.
What about conscripts? They would have had no choice in the matter, so there's no "guts" involved, is there? They fought because there was no other choice. I'm not sure if that really demonstrates courage or not... being forced to fight against your will.

What about conscripts? They would have had no choice in the matter, so there's no "guts" involved, is there? They fought because there was no other choice. I'm not sure if that really demonstrates courage or not... being forced to fight against your will.
Conscripts are brave too, they could've done what idiots in the US did during Vietnam and flee, but they chose to answer their nation's call. Conscripts have guts and did the work of a voluntary soldier while not doing what Slick Willy did and flee.

The actual in camp people were there voluntarily as they were part of the SS. They were the ones loyal to Hitler and his genocidal policies of horrible murder. They weren't the conscripted soldiers or the people like your grandfather working in the camps. The people working in the camps were the lowest form of life imaginable, the SS bastards.

Yeah, I realise that, but it's even a generalisation to say that all the SS were evil and that they all volunteered to be there doing that type of thing (of course, some were completely vile pieces of shit, but anyhow..) It was just an elite force- im not sure that many of them knew what they were getting into, particularly those that signed up before the war.

Conscripts are brave too, they could've done what idiots in the US did during Vietnam and flee, but they chose to answer their nation's call. Conscripts have guts and did the work of a voluntary soldier while not doing what Slick Willy did and flee.
How about conscripts in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia? I can't imagine Stalin and Hitler would have taken too well to traitors. Now, in the US or Canada, the worse that would happen is imprisonment for refusal, but you tell me... just where is the German conscript going to run?

How about conscripts in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia? I can't imagine Stalin and Hitler would have taken too well to traitors. Now, in the US or Canada, the worse that would happen is imprisonment for refusal, but you tell me... just where is the German conscript going to run?

Actually, in war, I believe the US has the death penalty for desertion. Correct me if I'm wrong...that could be obsolete. But I know for a fact that deserters from all nations in WW2 faced that punishment.

As a German I regret to inform you that we don't seem to celebrate Armistice day (which I always thought celebrated the end of the first World War, which ended in November) or even have a Veterans day that I know of. At least it's never been mentioned to me and I listen well.

Regarding the SS: They usually had a good idea of what they were doing. They were the elite, chosen from the mass. So naturally they wouldn't want anyone who was drafted against their will and does not agree with the party line.

There was a great outcry from the more right-wing spectrum (as in: almost nazioid) of politics during various Wehrmacht Exhibits that portrayed the war crimes the German regular army commited during WW2. But those were pretty much the only ones, aside of the veterans.

They conceeded that such things had been done, that they were by no means systematic on their side and that the Russians fought quite filthy too. And by 'filthy' they meant 'they like to cut off peoples genitals after nailing them to a wooden wall, head down.' Not to forget the rape. But that's given in that kind of war.


I guess that the reason we don't have a veterans day is the following one: we'd like to blank our history out, or at least every bit that makes the Nazis look even remotely human. In the 50's and 60's jokes about having served during WW2 ('We didn't steal the cow or the vodka. It was required for the German war effort!') were quite common. But nowadays having served during WW2 means that you were a nazi. At least in the eyes of others.

And seeing how Germany hasn't fought any large scale wars since then we don't have many other veterans.
I guess if I held patriotic feelings for my father country instead of my mother country, I'd be quite pained.

Actually, in war, I believe the US has the death penalty for desertion. Correct me if I'm wrong...that could be obsolete. But I know for a fact that deserters from all nations in WW2 faced that punishment.
But is a concientious objector a deserter? I'm referring to those who simply refused to join up, even if law required they be conscripted (Like Muhammed Ali in the States). The pacifists were imprisoned in Canada, as far as I know.
Desertion is a different thing entirely: a deserter is already a soldier when he deserts. I doubt it's punished by the death penalty anymore, but don't quote me on it.

Conscripts are brave too, they could've done what idiots in the US did during Vietnam and flee, but they chose to answer their nation's call. Conscripts have guts and did the work of a voluntary soldier while not doing what Slick Willy did and flee.

Slick Willy did what was perfectly legal. Many took his route.

The Ex-Chanclor of Berkely would have done the same if he hadn't got himself tossed from school. Went on to serve in the SEALs.

Conscripts are brave too, they could've done what idiots in the US did during Vietnam and flee, but they chose to answer their nation's call. Conscripts have guts and did the work of a voluntary soldier while not doing what Slick Willy did and flee.

I am going to completely ignore the Bill Clinton comment; it has been beaten to death. However, forcing citizens to fight a war which they feel is morally abhorrent that has nothing to do with national security is just as wrong (if not more so) than fleeing the country to avoid conscription.
Before you go on your "left wing liberal" tirade, you should know that my Grandfather made a career out of the Air Force (as did my uncle) and served in Vietnam on an AC130 gunship (in the spectre [formerly spooky] program.) Even he, a military man and staunch republican, concedes that the war was not necessary for national security reasons.

Desertion is a different thing entirely: a deserter is already a soldier when he deserts. I doubt it's punished by the death penalty anymore, but don't quote me on it.

I think it's still on the books but it has to be for a very good reason(ie a Guard deserts his post, an attack, an many soldiers are killed).

The last person exececuted was Eddie Slovak and it was done by Ike as an example to the men. Before that, the last time it was used was the Civil war.

One of the execution witnesses just talked about it recently:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04315/409342.stm

Honor the German dead? I don't know. One side of the family is from Poland. Granddad and the relatives didn't exactly paint a kind picture.

My great-uncle Jack saw heavy fighting all through the war and even liberated a couple concentration camps. He didn't talk about the war. What little he said about the camps and the look in his eyes, he would probably piss on their graves if he had the chance.

My aunt one said she thinks he caught and killed a few of the camp guards. Or was at least involved in it.

I think it's still on the books but it has to be for a very good reason(ie a Guard deserts his post, an attack, an many soldiers are killed).

The last person exececuted was Eddie Slovak and it was done by Ike as an example to the men. Before that, the last time it was used was the Civil war.
I stand corrected. US law is not exactly my expertise. Canadian I know.

The actual in camp people were there voluntarily as they were part of the SS. They were the ones loyal to Hitler and his genocidal policies of horrible murder. They weren't the conscripted soldiers or the people like your grandfather working in the camps. The people working in the camps were the lowest form of life imaginable, the SS bastards.


Garbage. The vast majority of the Waffen (armed) SS served honorably on two fronts. You confuse, as almost everyone does, the Waffen SS with the Allgemeine-SS. (The political SS).

And yes, there were atrocities committed by the Waffen SS. But these pale into insignificance compared to the unbelievable crimes our allies, the Soviets, committed against German civilians in 1945 as they overran Eastern Germany.

And I might add that the firebombing of Dresden and other German cities by the allies - cities that were full of refugees fleeing the Soviets - was in no way justified. Hundreds of thousands of German innocents were slaughtered for no obvious logistical or strategic reason.

And also, The Americans, on March 9, 1945, bombed Tokyo, with incendiary bombs, a city at that time with a population density of 135,000 people per square mile. The allies knew full well that the part of Tokyo they were bombing was overwhelmingly civilian-occupied, and that those civilians lived in wooden houses.

The result? Almost 100,000 Japanese died in *one* night.

What is the moral difference between burning alive almost 100,000 people with incendiary bombs from five miles up - and burning to death 187 Czechs in a barn at Lidice, as the Waffen SS did?

Think about it.

The fact is that the victors write the history of the wars they won.

The Germans in the 1930s were destitute - their country was ruined by reparations payments, and an impending invasion by Bolsheviks loomed. Though how they went about it was questionable, to say the least, German soldiers of WW II did regain the respect of Europe and saved at least half their country from Marxist conquest.

German veterans have as much to be proud of as veterans of the Red Army. And as much to regret. I suppose all soldiers, in the end, have such mixed feelings about war.

What is the moral difference between burning alive almost 100,000 people with incendiary bombs from five miles up - and burning to death 187 Czechs in a barn at Lidice, as the Waffen SS did?

Think about it.


Ok I am curious so what is the moral difference?

Ok I am curious so what is the moral difference?

If it's not apparent to you, then I'm not about to explain it to you. It should be obvious.

I believe that people would argue that the 6 million the Nazis killed in concentration/P.O.W. camps are more in number than the 187 you mentioned. However, Stalin killed up to 32 million Russians during his 5-year plans.
Yes, winners write history, but their apparent answer to "the Jewish question" does not exactly leave the Nazi's smelling like roses. Such atrocities only pale in comparison to anything else if you have entirely lost your humanity.
Stalin once said, "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." Remember we are talking about living, breathing people: people's mothers, sons, daughters, fathers, sisters, brothers, etc. Never let the humanity of the ALL the victims (read: not just the victims at Auschwitz, but in Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, etc.) escape your mind lest you let your humanity escape with it.

If it's not apparent to you, then I'm not about to explain it to you. It should be obvious.

Oh come on now. Obviously I have an opinion; I want to see where you will take this.

Garbage. The vast majority of the Waffen (armed) SS served honorably on two fronts. You confuse, as almost everyone does, the Waffen SS with the Allgemeine-SS. (The political SS).

And yes, there were atrocities committed by the Waffen SS. But these pale into insignificance compared to the unbelievable crimes our allies, the Soviets, committed against German civilians in 1945 as they overran Eastern Germany.

And I might add that the firebombing of Dresden and other German cities by the allies - cities that were full of refugees fleeing the Soviets - was in no way justified. Hundreds of thousands of German innocents were slaughtered for no obvious logistical or strategic reason.

And also, The Americans, on March 9, 1945, bombed Tokyo, with incendiary bombs, a city at that time with a population density of 135,000 people per square mile. The allies knew full well that the part of Tokyo they were bombing was overwhelmingly civilian-occupied, and that those civilians lived in wooden houses.

The result? Almost 100,000 Japanese died in *one* night.

What is the moral difference between burning alive almost 100,000 people with incendiary bombs from five miles up - and burning to death 187 Czechs in a barn at Lidice, as the Waffen SS did?

Think about it.

The fact is that the victors write the history of the wars they won.


In war, people naturally get angry. They do things that, in hindsight, are the height of immorality. Why? Because in their hatred of "the enemy," civilians on the opposing side cease to register in their minds as people. Same with POW's. Out of this, you get the rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, the firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden, the sack of Berlin, the London Blitz, the atrocities on the eastern front, etc.

If your country lost 20 million people in a war (Russia's losses were simply horrible), you probably wouldn't treat their civilians very well either. The human lust for revenge is strong, it causes us to think nothing of doing harm to those who share only nationality with those who have harmed us.

I'm not excusing the atrocities that were committed on all sides, I'm just saying that in human nature, it would have been remarkable if they hadn't happened.

Cataslan - ah yes, I'm quite aware (thank you) of when the first world war ended.

Which is why my post was phrased the way it was.

Heoi - The Far Strelso (where spelling mistakes are always forgiven but matters of fact - well, sometimes- not often - never, actually-)

If it's not apparent to you, then I'm not about to explain it to you. It should be obvious.
I'm not seeing a moral difference. Murder is murder, right? If I killed five men, I'm no better than the fellow who killed 20.

I believe that people would argue that the 6 million the Nazis killed in concentration/P.O.W. camps are more in number than the 187 you mentioned. However, Stalin killed up to 32 million Russians during his 5-year plans.
Yes, winners write history, but their apparent answer to "the Jewish question" does not exactly leave the Nazi's smelling like roses. Such atrocities only pale in comparison to anything else if you have entirely lost your humanity.
Stalin once said, "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." Remember we are talking about living, breathing people: people's mothers, sons, daughters, fathers, sisters, brothers, etc. Never let the humanity of the ALL the victims (read: not just the victims at Auschwitz, but in Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, etc.) escape your mind lest you let your humanity escape with it.

I believe this thread was first about servicemen in war, particularly German ones. Not about politics. Not about Stalin murdering the kulaks or whatever, or Hitler killing the Jews.

My point was that countries celebrate their victories and disparage other nations in the process. And that Germans, from an apolitical point of view, have a reason to be proud of their army in WW2. They were excellent soldiers, probably the best in the war. Forget the political motivation/cause involved, that's not important.

That the German troops are disparaged and disowned even by their own countrymen is a shame.

My other point is that no matter how bravely allied troops fought, that military leaders on the allied side made some appalling decisions that cost hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. As I wrote previously, the firebombing of Dresden, Leipzig etc, the incendiary bombing of Tokyo - all these were unnecessary. It is depressing for me, as an American, to see how we always remember the crimes of Hitler while completely ignoring our own crimes against innocent civilans. And that we were allied with Stalin, probably the greatest mass-murderer in history.

But anyway, to get back to the point of the thread, I salute the individual serviceman for their sacrifices - whether Waffen SS or American or British etc. There are no politics in bravery.

I'm not seeing a moral difference. Murder is murder, right? If I killed five men, I'm no better than the fellow who killed 20.

Exactly. There is no moral difference. You have a difference in numbers, for sure. America forgets the nearly 100,000 it basically murdered in Tokyo in March 1945 but remembers the 187 Czechs murdered in Lidice by the Waffen SS. The crimes of the allies, especially of us Americans - are forgotten entirely. Or excused because the Germans and the Japanese were supposed to be so much worse.

That's not an adequate justification for allied atrocities against civilians, in my opinion.

I believe this thread was first about servicemen in war, not about politics.

There can be no seperation of war and politics. Politics is "the art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs." Or as it's commonly defined in Political Science courses, "Who gets what when."
"Wars," according to Eugene Debs (Socialist and former candidate for the presidency of the US,) "throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder....And that is war in a nutshell. The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class; has always fought the battles."
Then, you want to talk about WWI, according to Howard Zinn, "The advanced capitalist countries of Europe were fighting over boundaries, colonies, spheres of influence; they were competing for Alsace-Lorraine, the Balkans, Africa, the Middle East."
Remember, it is the Servicemen who are fighting these wars. There can be no distinction between war and politics, it's all about who gets what when.

There can be no seperation of war and politics. Politics is "the art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs." Or as it's commonly defined in Political Science courses, "Who gets what when."
"Wars," according to Eugene Debs (Socialist and former candidate for the presidency of the US,) "throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder....And that is war in a nutshell. The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class; has always fought the battles."
Then, you want to talk about WWI, according to Howard Zinn, "The advanced capitalist countries of Europe were fighting over boundaries, colonies, spheres of influence; they were competing for Alsace-Lorraine, the Balkans, Africa, the Middle East."
Remember, it is the Servicemen who are fighting these wars. There can be no distinction between war and politics, it's all about who gets what when.

Soldiers are conscripted to fight an offensive or defensive war. The politics are beside the point. When it comes down to it, to save his life, no soldier kills another soldier because his president/fuhrer told him to do it. They do it to save their own lives or, perhaps, because of patriotism. Very, very rarely do they do it because of an abstract political cause such as communism. And empty phrases by one American president like "making the world safe for democracy" as a justification for war never made one serviceman act more bravely.

Let me remind you again, that the point of this thread was that the WW2 German servicemen are not given the respect they deserve for their sacrifices, and it's a shame that they are not respected as they should be.

Exactly. There is no moral difference. You have a difference in numbers, for sure. America forgets the nearly 100,000 it basically murdered in Tokyo in March 1945 but remembers the 187 Czechs murdered in Lidice by the Waffen SS. The crimes of the allies, especially of us Americans - are forgotten entirely. Or excused because the Germans and the Japanese were supposed to be so much worse.

That's not an adequate justification for allied atrocities against civilians, in my opinion.

I agree entirely.

But if a man kills a man who tortured his family to death, is that more justifiable than a man who has people killed because they dont share his veiws? Isnt it more justified to kill a man during war than to kill a cop while robbing a bank? are there different levels of murder?