NationStates Jolt Archive

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.
Because they attempt to infringe on other people's rights.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.

Christians are allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on others.

Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.

No, it's because you're attempting to enforce your moral definitions upon people who do not share them. I am not. I am not forcing you to get an abortion or marry another member of the same sex. I am just trying to leave the option open for those who do want to do those things.

No, it's because you're attempting to enforce your moral definitions upon people who do not share them. I am not. I am not forcing you to get an abortion or marry another member of the same sex. I am just trying to leave the option open for those who do want to do those things.

no i have not imposed my beliefs on a single solitary one of you... If I have tell me how and i will honestly and sincerely apologize.. but when an option is forced before me i will always speak what i truelly believe whether or not you find it pleasent..honesty yes and sometimes it isn't what you wanna hear..

no i have not imposed my beliefs on a single solitary one of you... If I have tell me how and i will honestly and sincerely apologize.. but when an option is forced before me i will always speak what i truelly believe whether or not you find it pleasent..honesty yes and sometimes it isn't what you wanna hear..

I didn't mean specifically you. I meant those Christians who find it appropriate to decide who can and can't get married based on their morals and those Christians who believe they have a greater right to a woman's body than that woman does. If you do not belong to these groups, I am sorry to have offended you.

As an example...Jewish people (arent supposed) to eat pork. You dont see massive Jewish lobbiests to ban pork from the supermarket do you? Hindus see the cow as sacred, you dont see them pushing for legislation to ban beef consumption.

Christians can believe whatever they want, I don't get mad until they try to force their morality on me.

also every single religion encourages its members to go out and spread whatever paricular brand of good news it bears to the world..it is just inherint in religion..and a good majority of those oppose the death of anyone including the unborn..and a good majority of those find marriage a institution between man and woman

also every single religion encourages its members to go out and spread whatever paricular brand of good news it bears to the world..it is just inherint in religion..and a good majority of those oppose the death of anyone including the unborn..and a good majority of those find marriage a institution between man and woman

But not everyone does. Therefore, in this supposed free society we have, we must respect everyone's beliefs and not legislate based on any single religious belief.

also every single religion encourages its members to go out and spread whatever paricular brand of good news it bears to the world..it is just inherint in religion..and a good majority of those oppose the death of anyone including the unborn..and a good majority of those find marriage a institution between man and woman


Incorrect, the jewish religion specifically does NOT do so. Nor does buddhism. I'm not sure about islam but im relatively sure Hinduism doesnt either.

Edit: Encourage its members to go out and spread the faith...not oppose death of anyone

I didn't mean specifically you. I meant those Christians who find it appropriate to decide who can and can't get married based on their morals and those Christians who believe they have a greater right to a woman's body than that woman does. If you do not belong to these groups, I am sorry to have offended you.

this is what i mean tell me which religion condones abortion...none..ask any member of any religion and they will say its wrong..but it just seems christians are always singled out...is it just not p.c. to attack anyone else..or are christians just an easy target

But not everyone does. Therefore, in this supposed free society we have, we must respect everyone's beliefs and not legislate based on any single religious belief.

then why force it into a politacal arena where the majority..christians..can vote on it..

then why force it into a politacal arena where the majority..christians..can vote on it..

The christians forced it into the political arena actually. Its the main reason for separation of church and state...so that oppression by majority couldnt be justified in the name of religion.

this is what i mean tell me which religion condones abortion...none..ask any member of any religion and they will say its wrong..but it just seems christians are always singled out...is it just not p.c. to attack anyone else..or are christians just an easy target

I don't care what religions think about different issues. It's the christians that are vocal about it.

You don't stand up and scream "PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" then get mad when people do so.

I don't care what religions think about different issues. It's the christians that are vocal about it.

You don't stand up and scream "PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" then get mad when people do so.

To be fair, a lot of conservative jews advocate exactly the same thing, and often just as loudly (that Dr. Laura springs to mind).

There just aren't as many of them.

(I'm sure conservative muslims are the same).

I don't care what religions think about different issues. It's the christians that are vocal about it.

You don't stand up and scream "PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" then get mad when people do so.

now. now. plenty of other religions do it also..and in the same varying degrees as christians..but i still dont see an open attack on them

If you desperately want to feel oppressed, feel oppressed. Youve gotten a slew of reasons people are irritated with christianity in politics already. Take the plank from thine own eye before you reach to remove the mote from thy brothers.

now. now. plenty of other religions do it also..and in the same varying degrees as christians..but i still dont see an open attack on them

Really? Because I don't hear about them.

I comment on what I see and hear, and I see and hear the christians

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.
I'm sorry but you need to give specific examples. I'm not aware that this is the case.
I suspect you are confused; for instance I wonder if you are mistaking the right to think and believe what you like, with the right to control other people in accordance with those beliefs. I support the former and reject the latter, as I suspect do many others. In fact it is not possible to support the former without rejecting the later, ergo those that claim the latter have no logical recourse to the former, since the two are contrary to each other, logically both premises cannot be true at the same time.

Really? Because I don't hear about them.

I comment on what I see and hear, and I see and hear the christians


Like I said. Dr Laura.

Being anti-Christian is the new fad.

Since the majority is Christian, that makes it "conformist!" And "non-conformity" is so totally in right now!

Whatever. They'll learn their lesson in the end.

Great to see someone finally asking what the rest of us are wondering. Rock on, Gladdis.

Like I said. Dr Laura.

...Is at the same level as Phelps-ignored.

I'm not talking about individual, one person cases. I mean when groups of people do it, and I've only seen groups of christians do it.

Being anti-Christian is the new fad.

Since the majority is Christian, that makes it "conformist!" And "non-conformity" is so totally in right now!

Whatever. They'll learn their lesson in the end.

Great to see someone finally asking what the rest of us are wondering. Rock on, Gladdis.


More amazing that you could thumb through this entire thread and not get anything other than the fact that Gladdis asked the question out of it.

Being anti-Christian is the new fad.

Since the majority is Christian, that makes it "conformist!" And "non-conformity" is so totally in right now!

Whatever. They'll learn their lesson in the end.

Great to see someone finally asking what the rest of us are wondering. Rock on, Gladdis.

Yeah, that must be what it is.

Whatever. They'll learn their lesson in the end.

And what lesson might that be, one wonders? Fires of hell?

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.

Maybe it's because christians spent most of the middle ages burning "heretics" alive and shoving nice things into their rectums, maybe because they take all the rich kids out of the public school systems to the point where if I want a decent education I have to sit through enlightening class discussions about how your invisible freind loves me, or maybe it's because christians think morals are not relative and therefore feel obliged to convert everything they see?

Being anti-Christian is the new fad.

Since the majority is Christian, that makes it "conformist!" And "non-conformity" is so totally in right now!

Whatever. They'll learn their lesson in the end.

Great to see someone finally asking what the rest of us are wondering. Rock on, Gladdis.

56% is hardly a majority if you ask me.

56% is hardly a majority if you ask me.
"Hardly" is right. I mean, it's only a majority by 6%, eh?

Maybe it's because christians spent most of the middle ages burning "heretics" alive and shoving nice things into their rectums, maybe because they take all the rich kids out of the public school systems to the point where if I want a decent education I have to sit through enlightening class discussions about how your invisible freind loves me, or maybe it's because christians think morals are not relative and therefore feel obliged to convert everything they see?

now now..those people in the middle ages were just about as christian as the
"muslims" who are blowing up kids in dance clubs...please keep with the times..
and maybe we truelly get a sense of fulfillment and happiness that we wish to share..now i am poor and went to a public school...you just seem to have other issues..what is you families annual income..probably way more than mine or the majority of people i grew up with...the school system and its faillings have little to do with christianity there are far more variables in its failings

*clears throat*
Bentham's Paradox of Tolerance comes to mind....



Right, with that out of the way.
I don't think Christians are generally being called those names, nor are the names being used solely on the basis of the recipient being a Christian. I'm sure if they were jewish, muslim, agnostic, or even atheist they would receive insults for extreme views that impose restrictions on others based on a belief system that not all peoples hold.

I personally do not fling insults, I may shake my head and be disappointed that one can be incredibly narrowminded or use religion to back up a point of view, but I move on. Because where I come from, religion is fairly nicely separated from legislation and the justice system.

Though there are a few little things...such as that blasphemy only protects Christianity, I mean what the hell is that?

The problem generally is, when you will not accept alternative viewpoints and their validity. When everyone else is wrong because they counter the Christian viewpoint. What the hell is the Christian viewpoint anyway? There are many varying viewpoints of individuals who also hold themselves to be Christian.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.it's baised on Laws. No matter what you believe you have the right to do, you obey the laws of the land. Christians have another set that they also follow. the problem is that the Laws of man are changed more often than the laws of God.

It's easy to think of someone who takes 2000 year old as modern perfection as a little incompitent. Generally a christian views cannot be backed by anything but christian views and cannot be proven or disproven due to a blind (And apparently deaf) faith. Frequently christians enjoy butting in on others lives just to tell them whats wrong with them, and when asked to leave they give an unwelcome "I'll prey for you", this ignornace of personal space is also seen as rather idiodic. Notice the words "Easy to", "Generally", "Many times" and "Frequently". To contrast this is Easy to find a christian that Generally won't infringe on your personally beliefs. And Many Tiems you'll Frequently not be bothered by them. But I have given you your reasons.

Hey, I tolerate Christians just fine.

Until they knock on my door....

Or wave some that piece of fiction they revere at me and spout some quote...

Or try to push their belief system into my schools or government...

Or try to turn their moralistic agenda into laws....

Or start some lame thread acting like a martyr for their beliefs....

If they'd just shut up and keep it to themselves I tolerate them just fine.

Hey, I tolerate Christians just fine.

Until they knock on my door....

Or wave some that piece of fiction they revere at me and spout some quote...

Or try to push their belief system into my schools or government...

Or try to turn their moralistic agenda into laws....

Or start some lame thread acting like a martyr for their beliefs....

If they'd just shut up and keep it to themselves I tolerate them just fine.

Amen.

Tolerance? Sounds like commie talk to me!

:mp5:

Tolerance? Sounds like commie talk to me!

:mp5:

Yes, and they are being watched for it.

I was born and raised a Christian, but have long since parted with my religious side. The biggest problem I have with any religion so far is with Christianity. Why? Because they have a more active and vocal 'convert the heathens' policy than other religions that I have encountered.

Looking back through history, when mankind encountered a new civilization with a new religion, who sent out the missionaries? Generally the Christians. Why? To offer them a new perspecitive? Probably not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you generally don't try to change someone unless you think they're wrong and you're right. It's this self-righteous attitude that most (not all) Christians seem to have that annoys me the most.

Too often have I entered into moral discussion with colleagues from college about moral issues, and it usually winds up being a debate about whether God exists and why I should or shouldn't repent of my sinful ways.

I have no problem with religious people (in fact most of my friends are weekly church-goers), so long as they keep their religion to themselves as a personal belief and not a global law.

I have to concur with the majority of the posts here. The reason people "pick on" Christians is because many Christians try to get their beliefs made into laws of the land, ergo Christian Supremacists. There are plenty of Christians who do not wish to do so, and they're fine, but they're not very vocal. The vocal theocrats ruin it for all Christians.

As a side note, I don't mind discussing religion, or even having someone attempt to "convert" me to theirs, provided they don't threaten me with things like "you'll go to hell if you don't" or something along those lines.

"Tolerance" is such a crock. The title of this thread should read "Acceptance...for all."

Hmm... some very good points here, but also some awful ones... I don't think you can really say Christians aren't picked on, after some of the things said here...

Basically, the problem lies in the fact that the huge majority (i might even say all) of religions involve the leader or God-figure setting out either a set of rules, or framework for how to live life. Atheists etc. find it hard to understand that these are supposed to be the things we primarily follow... and I don't blame em... very hard to understand the importance of the rules of a God you don't believe in.
One of these rules, though, for Christians at least, is that it is our duty to try and tell others about God... yes, to 'convert' them, although I hate that word. The problem arises when the evangelists go about it too forcefully - no-one will ever respond to a freak screaming 'REPENT, SINNER!' etc. But please, guys, don't pick on all of us for doing what we believe we're called on to do.
Oh, and everyone's personal views on religion will always affect their thoughts if making laws or some such - whether Christian, atheist, Muslim, Scientologist, whatever! Basically, just cause Bush uses his religion totally wrong, don't blame us.

i consider myself a tolerant person.hell i consider it the RIGHT of chirstians to come up to my door and offer my pamplets and otherwise generally try to convert me.but its when they try to enforce there morality ON OTHERS that i grow angry.
that and my general dislike of hypocrits.which by there nature christians are.
the prophet is a good man,teaches love and forgiveness.the followers teach hatered and prejuidice.hmpf.

Why are Christians 'picked on'?

There are a number of reasons. 'Christianity' is the most vocal when it comes to making demands of the secular government. Being the most prominent religion in Western society, it is also the one with the most extremist nutters. The fact that the extremist nutters are the most vocal ones and that the Church doesn't bother to try keeping a leash on them and often seems to encourage them doesn't help. It is certainly the most interested in 'converting the heathens' in Western society, which becomes increasingly annoying when the first "No, thank you" fails to sink in. It is also known for trying to enforce its morals and 'laws' on other, rather than allowing them to decline.

Basically, Christianity is picked on by everyone because it picks on everyone. Leave people alone, and they'll leave you alone.

no i have not imposed my beliefs on a single solitary one of you... If I have tell me how and i will honestly and sincerely apologize.
Voting for Bush, if you did, or voting to ban gay marriage if you live in one of the relevant states.

j/k

We're not talking about all Christians here, just the overly aggressive ones.

I don't see why American Christian evangelicals whine about being persecuted by liberals. Your president and the people who control both houses of Congress are Christian fundamentalists! Xtians definitely have the upper hand in the US at the moment

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.
there are several belief systems that i believe are deplorable, and Christianity sits high on the list. you have every right to believe whatever you choose, and i will strongly defend your right to make that choice and speak freely about it, but i will not have much respect for the choice itself.

i believe that all superstition is dishonorable, ignorant, and weak, but Christianity is the form of superstition that most interferes with my life and the lives of my loved ones...hence i have more specific and personal problems with Christianity. Christianity forces itself into my life to an extent that no other religious superstition does, and thus Christianity bears more of the brunt of my displeasure with superstition in general. if you don't like it, then get your fellow Christians to stop legislating their religion.

The Empire of Presidency quotes an anonymous sources as saying, "Tolerance has its limits."

Being anti-Christian is the new fad.

Since the majority is Christian, that makes it "conformist!" And "non-conformity" is so totally in right now!

Whatever. They'll learn their lesson in the end.

Great to see someone finally asking what the rest of us are wondering. Rock on, Gladdis.
honey bunny, you need to read your history. anti-Christian sentiment has dominated since Christianity began...remember, the majority of the world is NOT Christian, and never has been.

Sinners!!! Your All Going To Valhalla Unless You Repent!!!

Sinners!!! Your All Going To Valhalla Unless You Repent!!!
meh, that's what the death-bed confession is for.

this is what i mean tell me which religion condones abortion...none..ask any member of any religion and they will say its wrong..but it just seems christians are always singled out...is it just not p.c. to attack anyone else..or are christians just an easy target
numerous religions support the right to choose, including many denominations of Christianity. hell, the Bible specifically supports murdering children under numerous circumstances, and also says that causing a woman to abort is NOT equal to murdering a human being.

numerous religions support the right to choose, including many denominations of Christianity. hell, the Bible specifically supports murdering children under numerous circumstances, and also says that causing a woman to abort is NOT equal to murdering a human being.

Amen. I know plenty of pro-choice protestants. There is also an openly gay bishop (Gene Robinson if I remember correctly). Even the major religions don't agree on these issues within themselves. And even if they did all agree, I hardly see that as a valid basis for legislation.

Maybe the problem arises from trying to lump all christians or muslims or whatever into one monolithic organisation that all believe exactly the same thing or all act in the same way. They aren't and don't. There are plenty of nice, humane, tolerant christians out there. Many of them are wonderful people and a few of them are my friends. There are also rabid, intolerant, blood-spitting lunatics who believe that their personal interpretation of whatever holy text they read (Bible, Koran, whatever) should be translated into law for everyone - I don't tolerate these people, as they show no sign of tolerating anyone else.

So maybe thats the problem. In the developed world at least, there aren't large muslim or jewish pressure groups (Dr Laura doesn't count. No individual could, however loud), so the intolerant people we see are christians. Unfortunately, these are the most visible christians.

In practice though, Gladdis, I don't imagine you are being oppressed, or that any of your rights to practice your christianity are being infringed. If you can show me that they are I will happily apologise.

Bless you all.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.

It is because Christians in North America wish to have Christians and non-Christians alike adhere to the value systems your religion promulgates, regardless of the sensibilities others live their lives by. This amounts to a devaluing of other ethical systems because they occasionally run into conflict with your own.

Jesus was a great man, or prophet, or demi-god, depending on your point of view. He openly loved, and did not merely 'tolerate' others, he accepted and loved them. I cannot speak to your own sense of hypcocricy, that is a matter between you and God. I will say this: if you really want to invoke positive change in the human condition, then your path is abundantly clear.

now now..those people in the middle ages were just about as christian as the
"muslims" who are blowing up kids in dance clubs...please keep with the times..


Wow how scarey is it you could write this and not SEE it? Do you honestly for one minute think those Christians of long ago were some sort of rare breed of extinct Christian? That today's Christians just sort of popped out of nowhere? Did Jesus make a second appearance and I didn't get word?

For the record I am a Christian. That is I believe in God and I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, who died for our sins etc etc. I also respect the teachings of Christ. This is why it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to see people using Jesus to justify their bigotry, hatred, and persecution. I'm not accusing you of that just letting you know how I feel. But even that is not the point.

Our country is founded on the idea that religious dogmas have no place in governing a free society. America as we know, it would not even exist were it not for oppression by a religious majority upon religious minorities.

Fanaticism can be defined as the blind belief that an idea or doctrine is absolutely true, AND that it is acceptable or even right to force others to share that particular belief. Fanatical Christians scare me more than fanatical muslims because the Christian fanatics have the numbers, the money and power to hurt so many more people. I suspect I'm not alone in this fear. THAT is why people seem anti-Christian.

One last point to ponder. If you look at the teachings of Islam, you would really have to wonder how the people blowing up dance clubs could really call themselves muslims. But they do. Likewise if you look at the teachings of Christ, you really have to wonder how the American fundamentalist fanatical Christian can really call themselves Christians. But they do. :mad:

Sinners!!! Your All Going To Valhalla Unless You Repent!!!

Valhalla? I'll go to Valhalla unless I repent? I'm certainly not repenting then.

Feasting, drinking and brawling 'til Ragnarok? Yes, please.

now now..those people in the middle ages were just about as christian as the "muslims" who are blowing up kids in dance clubs

Gads I am so sick of this argument! "We don't have to take responsibility for those guys because they weren't *really* Christians".

Even the most liberal of Muslims take responsibility for the death cults and try to do everything they can to stop such groups from rising.

It's like that old routine by Eddie Murphy in "Raw" where the guy gets caught by his wife coming out of another woman's house and he simply says, "Hey ... wasn't me".

Mmkay ... so ... lemme ask ...

Which Christians are the "right kind" of Christians?

Please answer so I know who to watch out for.

Wow how scarey is it you could write this and not SEE it? Do you honestly for one minute think those Christians of long ago were some sort of rare breed of extinct Christian? That today's Christians just sort of popped out of nowhere? Did Jesus make a second appearance and I didn't get word?

For the record I am a Christian. That is I believe in God and I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, who died for our sins etc etc. I also respect the teachings of Christ. This is why it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to see people using Jesus to justify their bigotry, hatred, and persecution. I'm not accusing you of that just letting you know how I feel. But even that is not the point.

<clip>



Never mind. My question is answered. *This* is the right kind of Christian.

Personal responsibility. Responsibility for the past and future. Global responsibility. The recognition that one's belief is right for the self and only the self.

Thank you! :)

Sinners!!! Your All Going To Valhalla Unless You Repent!!!
That's the other way around. Unless you repent, you won't go to Vahalla.

Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
*Uppercuts Goed*

there are several belief systems that i believe are deplorable, and Christianity sits high on the list. you have every right to believe whatever you choose, and i will strongly defend your right to make that choice and speak freely about it, but i will not have much respect for the choice itself.

i believe that all superstition is dishonorable, ignorant, and weak, but Christianity is the form of superstition that most interferes with my life and the lives of my loved ones...hence i have more specific and personal problems with Christianity. Christianity forces itself into my life to an extent that no other religious superstition does, and thus Christianity bears more of the brunt of my displeasure with superstition in general. if you don't like it, then get your fellow Christians to stop legislating their religion.
As opposed to your own superstition? Hypocracy knows no single identity.

You say that Christianity forces itself into your life, so I assume you mean passing laws and such. Laws concerning abortion or gay marriage and others I assume. You know what... build a bridge and get over it. That's how a society works. People propose laws (either through initiatives or through government representatives). The people then get a chance to vote on it. If said initiative passes, it becomes law. If it fails it doesn't.

Don't like the direction things are headed? Start your own petition to put an initiative on some ballot somewhere and let the people decide.

A person's morals (and we all have them) have an effect on their decisions made in life. That is a good thing. That is a great thing.

You don't like a Christians stance on gay marriage or abortion (again, I have to assume), but what about murder? Should murder be allowed simply because it goes against Christian morals? What about theft? The 10 commandments oppose theft so it should be legal?

You simply don't like some stances that some Christians take and thus Christianity becomes the "most interfering superstition". Well, I find your superstition to be most interfering onto my life... get over it.

Never mind. My question is answered. *This* is the right kind of Christian.

Personal responsibility. Responsibility for the past and future. Global responsibility. The recognition that one's belief is right for the self and only the self.

Thank you! :)
You are right... people did unspeakable things in the name of Christianity. As a Christian I appologize for this happening. There is nothing however I can do about it, other than to live my life as best I can.

Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast. Any time religion gets organized mans' input begins to cloud the motives and structure of said religion. Man corrupts it.

I am a Christian, I believe in God, and his Son Jesus is my savior. I do not belong to any church other than my own.

As opposed to your own superstition? Hypocracy knows no single identity.

You say that Christianity forces itself into your life, so I assume you mean passing laws and such. Laws concerning abortion or gay marriage and others I assume. You know what... build a bridge and get over it. That's how a society works. People propose laws (either through initiatives or through government representatives). The people then get a chance to vote on it. If said initiative passes, it becomes law. If it fails it doesn't.

Don't like the direction things are headed? Start your own petition to put an initiative on some ballot somewhere and let the people decide.

A person's morals (and we all have them) have an effect on their decisions made in life. That is a good thing. That is a great thing.

You don't like a Christians stance on gay marriage or abortion (again, I have to assume), but what about murder? Should murder be allowed simply because it goes against Christian morals? What about theft? The 10 commandments oppose theft so it should be legal?

You simply don't like some stances that some Christians take and thus Christianity becomes the "most interfering superstition". Well, I find your superstition to be most interfering onto my life... get over it.
Excellent post! Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

Voting for Bush, if you did, or voting to ban gay marriage if you live in one of the relevant states.

j/k

We're not talking about all Christians here, just the overly aggressive ones.

I don't see why American Christian evangelicals whine about being persecuted by liberals. Your president and the people who control both houses of Congress are Christian fundamentalists! Xtians definitely have the upper hand in the US at the moment

so because of a few people yopu stereotype the whole gang..now if i were to do that with a race..or nationality or homosexuals..i would be completely wrong and you would all line up to push your p.c. beliefs on me, right..yep
but since its christianity well hey lets all jump on the stereotype bandwagon.and oh sure thats fine its just christrians

It is because Christians in North America wish to have Christians and non-Christians alike adhere to the value systems your religion promulgates, regardless of the sensibilities others live their lives by. This amounts to a devaluing of other ethical systems because they occasionally run into conflict with your own.

Jesus was a great man, or prophet, or demi-god, depending on your point of view. He openly loved, and did not merely 'tolerate' others, he accepted and loved them. I cannot speak to your own sense of hypcocricy, that is a matter between you and God. I will say this: if you really want to invoke positive change in the human condition, then your path is abundantly clear.
jesus loved all men but he never accepted their sin..he was always leading people to what he preached..read more of the bible before trying to interpret it to me

As opposed to your own superstition? Hypocracy knows no single identity.

You say that Christianity forces itself into your life, so I assume you mean passing laws and such. Laws concerning abortion or gay marriage and others I assume. You know what... build a bridge and get over it. That's how a society works. People propose laws (either through initiatives or through government representatives). The people then get a chance to vote on it. If said initiative passes, it becomes law. If it fails it doesn't.

Ah but the problem is that laws concerning abortion and Gay marriage are bordering on the unconstitutionnal. Furthermore, with that way of thinking any rights can be taken away if the majority want it. Suppose in 20 years from now, Muslim are more numerous and push a law that requires women to wear veils. Surely you can understand how that is problematic.

Don't like the direction things are headed? Start your own petition to put an initiative on some ballot somewhere and let the people decide.

The other thing is let people make a learned decision. When some christian organisation goes around a says that Kerry is killing babies, how can you make sure that people knows the facts beforehand?

A person's morals (and we all have them) have an effect on their decisions made in life. That is a good thing. That is a great thing.

That we can agree on. I think it's the single most important aspect of religion: to teach morals.

You don't like a Christians stance on gay marriage or abortion (again, I have to assume), but what about murder? Should murder be allowed simply because it goes against Christian morals? What about theft? The 10 commandments oppose theft so it should be legal?

That has to be the weirdest arguments I've seen in a long while. All I can say is that pushing some morals values not deemed inalienable rights is where my beef is with the christian groups. If they were to preach that theft is bad, we'd be the best friends in the world. Let them make a petition saying that murder is a crime and i'll vote for it. If they push their definition of marriage on other people, then we come to a disagreement.


You simply don't like some stances that some Christians take and thus Christianity becomes the "most interfering superstition". Well, I find your superstition to be most interfering onto my life... get over it.

The get over it argument has to be the singlest most annoying argument i have ever faced. It burns my eyes everytime I see it. Let me use it this time. Marriage grants benefits and gays should recieve these benefits. Therefore, gays should be allowed to marry, if you don't like it, get over it.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.

It is the usual jaded arguement of being tolerant where by you only tolerate the tolerant people. But do not be tolerant of the intolerant people, unless you want to be accused of as a sympathiser (guilty by association). Therefore by being intolerant of the intolerant you are are not fighting the good cause for being tolerant in the first place. :rolleyes: It's either hypocrisy or insanity I'm not sure, but it's ok to be intolerant of the intolerant for politically correct reasons that's for sure.

Watch out, it's the EU Parliament championing democracy by refusing the EU Comission for rejecting it (due to a Catholic with orthodox views). A bit ironic to be championing democracy when the EU Comission isn't elected anyways. . . but nevermind. Anyways, you are only allowed in (because it isn't elected) if you subscribe to their set of beliefs - and Europe is very secular. Although I'd prefer it if we didn't have religious nuts, but for an institution which is 100% set against discrimination and all for rights, it didn't seem to bothered about discriminating against this poor Italian politican who thought homosexuality was a sin and women belonged in the kitchen being appointed head of the Justice and Equality department :P - It would have done him better to say he thought hetrosexuality was a sin and that men belonged in cages.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.
you have your opinion, and i have my right to disagree.

that's not intolerance, it's a matter of different perspectives.

and often in some debates that have come up on the sobjects of abortion and gay marriage, christians have been wrong, for non-religious justifications. for instance, stating imporper timelines for development for fetuses, stating that being gay is a choice et c. these are things that can be empirically verified.

and often, christians are rather forceful in their expression of beliefs. often to the extent of saying "this is how it is, no argument" well, that's not how it is and you're damn sure there's an argument.

jesus loved all men but he never accepted their sin..he was always leading people to what he preached..read more of the bible before trying to interpret it to me
he didn't say that jesus accepted people's sin. he said that jesus accepted the people despite their sins.

isn't that what you guys like to teach anyways? that god and jesus offer divine, unconditional love?

unconditional live, by definition has nothing to do with what you've done. it's just love given for no reason and without restriction. no matter what the person does, you don't stop loving them. that is unconditional love.

jesus accepted and loved people for who they were, sinners or not.

Seems to me a lot of people in these threads support everybodies right to do and believe what they want..except christians..
Why is that? is it because Christians have a belief system you dont agree with?
Is it because we believe certain things are wrong and that accepting them or tolerating them makes us hypocrites to ourselves..
I belive most major religions have very firm definitions of right and wrong.. people, especially the left seemingly hold up every other religions "right" to have their beliefs
but christians are called nazi's, idiots, and much more for theirs.

They are called those names when they try to force their beliefs off on others. I believe you will find that most people who support tolerance and understanding of others, mean that they support each individual's right to live his or her life as they see fit without outside interference. However, when a person or group starts trying to take that right from others or force others to live life their way, the tolerance ends. Why? Because peopel who do that have shown intolerance first. I do not personally believe that all Christians are bad people who try to force others to live life their way, however I do believe that many Christians aren't content with living their own lives and instead try to force other people to live life their way. That is where I get intolerant (and I will admit it).

Its sort of like "The only thing I cannot tolerate is intolerance." So when Christians (or anyone else) act in an intolerant manner towards others, I'm going to get angry.

also every single religion encourages its members to go out and spread whatever paricular brand of good news it bears to the world..it is just inherint in religion..
no it's not. look at hindhuism, buddhism, zoroastrianism, judaism. the last two don't even allow converts, the first two are pretty cool with other opinions and are actually flexible enough to some extent to adapt their religion to another (especially buddhism)

and a good majority of those oppose the death of anyone including the unborn..and a good majority of those find marriage a institution between man and woman
well, first you'd have to agree that it is a death of an organism, for your statement on abortion.

and for the second statement, that's not true. not here at least (canada) and even if it was, then what right does the majority have to deny rights to the minority? did white people in america have the right to deny citizenship to black slaves?

this is what i mean tell me which religion condones abortion...none..ask any member of any religion and they will say its wrong..but it just seems christians are always singled out...is it just not p.c. to attack anyone else..or are christians just an easy target
when's the last time you've heard a muslim come into the forums and say "abortion is wrong because it's condemned here in the koran, and allah forbids it."? i personally, have never heard that.

yet, we hear the christians using the bible to say why abortions shouldn't be permitted all the time.

The Empire of Presidency quotes an anonymous sources as saying, "Tolerance has its limits."

You tolerate a cold, you tolerate something you don't like; put up with. That way when they call you intolerant it sounds that much worse.

If it was changed to "accepting", saying someone is "unaccepting" doesn't have the same harsh ring or negative connotation.

It does have its limits though.

I don't get why people on here are talking about Christians being wrong for imposing their morals, it's no lie that religion hasn't affected them but so would life experience (etc). It's also no different from atheists imposing their morals on the religious who may disagree. To solve this arguement you could always ban the religious from having any political power. . . or you could ban the atheists and have a theocracy. Neither of these solutions would be democratic though, but at least it would mean that only one group would be pissed off.

Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
Yeah and your right to do what you want ends when a child is killed. Is is pc to kill a child? Maybe I'm off-base... but I don't think so...

However, when a person or group starts trying to take that right from others or force others to live life their way, the tolerance ends. Why? Because peopel who do that have shown intolerance first.

... Isn't that how wars start. You started it. . .

Or will you be more tolerant when they are? Isn't that childish?

Principles!

I don't get why people on here are talking about Christians being wrong for imposing their morals, it's no lie that religion hasn't affected them but so would life experience (etc). It's also no different from atheists imposing their morals on the religious who may disagree. To solve this arguement you could always ban the religious from having any political power. . . or you could ban the atheists and have a theocracy. Neither of these solutions would be democratic though, but at least it would mean that only one group would be pissed off.

How do Atheists impose their morals on others? By saying "No you cannot make a law the requries me to abide by the precepts of your religion that have no other backing than they are in your religion." That's not am imposition, that's just the basis of good governance.

... Isn't that how wars start. You started it. . .

Or will you be more tolerant when they are? Isn't that childish?

Principles!

No, its not how wars start. Its the excuse that each side gives for why it starts. Wars actually start when one side attacks the other. And when they do so, they lose the right to not be attacked themselves.

Yeah and your right to do what you want ends when a child is killed. Is is pc to kill a child? Maybe I'm off-base... but I don't think so...
a fetus isn't a child.

an embryo isn't a child.

a zygote isn't a child.

so i really don't know what you're talking about there.

Yeah and your right to do what you want ends when a child is killed. Is is pc to kill a child? Maybe I'm off-base... but I don't think so...
Ah but you need to define what constitute a child. Some of us just don't suscribe to the theory that life begins with conception.

Also, the woman has rights too. Who is to decide which rights takes precedents? And, most importantly why?

I'm tired of these topics.

the true liberals on here:
say you are free to get married in church and the government will recognize it legally.

will defend your rights to worship whatever, whenever you like.

allow christian churches to be tax exempt.

say you can pray in school as long as it is personal and not school endorsed.

Most of the Christians on here:
say that gays should never get married as it would destroy the institution, like if they ever did get married you would recognize it anyway

believe their religion is the only valid one

believe that they should make the moral choices for people they do not even know

say that schools should endorse prayer even if it isn't representative of all of their students.

So tell me how are the liberals on here the ones without tolerance?

Y are people today much blaming christians? Because the extremists are the one who are more vocal. It's like in any other religion...look at those Muslim extremists in Irak or at the Jew extremists in the Middle East...the newspapers will never talk about those regular Jews, Muslims, Christians or any other religion just trying to make their lives and not caring about whatsoever else's religion. They will always talk about Bush taking a war on terrorist "on the name of God" or about those crazy Muslim extremists who are about to cut the head of a journalist or of a peacekeeper...its always like that!!!

N by the way...nice choise on November 2nd, Americans (sarcasm)

Y are people today much blaming christians? Because the extremists are the one who are more vocal. It's like in any other religion...look at those Muslim extremists in Irak or at the Jew extremists in the Middle East...the newspapers will never talk about those regular Jews, Muslims, Christians or any other religion just trying to make their lives and not caring about whatsoever else's religion. They will always talk about Bush taking a war on terrorist "on the name of God" or about those crazy Muslim extremists who are about to cut the head of a journalist or of a peacekeeper...its always like that!!!

N by the way...nice choise on November 2nd, Americans (sarcasm)

Well in this country the majority is christian and they are becoming more and more fundamentalist. Obviously, the election (electing Bush to overturn Roe v Wade, gay marriage bans) has proven that most christians feel that they should legislate their beliefs and not just keep it to themselves. The Jewish are also very politically active in general, however they are very socially progressive normally. Muslims, hindus, etc. do not have any political pull in this country.

That's why American Christians recieve a lot of the blame. However, I salute all the christians out there are strong enough in their own faith to not feel the need to force it on others.

As opposed to your own superstition? Hypocracy knows no single identity.

i am not superstitious, hence my condemnation of superstition is not hypocritical.


You say that Christianity forces itself into your life, so I assume you mean passing laws and such. Laws concerning abortion or gay marriage and others I assume. You know what... build a bridge and get over it. That's how a society works. People propose laws (either through initiatives or through government representatives). The people then get a chance to vote on it. If said initiative passes, it becomes law. If it fails it doesn't.

sorry, but i am not selfish enough to do what you propose. i believe that injustice can only exist as long as it is permitted to, so i will not be party to continued injustice. when unjust laws are passed, perpetuating a tyranny of the majority and lowering the quality of life of myself and my fellow citizens, i am not going to simply "get over it." i will work to correct the injustice, and to build a world where ignorance, fear, weakness, and dishonesty are no longer the basis for peoples' "morality."


Don't like the direction things are headed? Start your own petition to put an initiative on some ballot somewhere and let the people decide.

petitions are a waste, but don't you worry...i most certainly am politically active. i also volunteer in my community and become involved in a number of groups that work to eliminate the problems that i see around me. your assumption that i don't take action is cute, but please don't project your own selfish laziness onto me.


A person's morals (and we all have them) have an effect on their decisions made in life. That is a good thing. That is a great thing.

that is a HORRIBLE thing, if their "morals" are based on lies, misinformation, and personal weakness. simply having an opinion and acting on it isn't necessarily a good thing, not even if you call that opinion "moral."


You don't like a Christians stance on gay marriage or abortion (again, I have to assume), but what about murder? Should murder be allowed simply because it goes against Christian morals? What about theft? The 10 commandments oppose theft so it should be legal?

wow, what arrogance. do you really think that i support abortion and gay marriage just to piss off Christians? far from it...i support those things because i believe they are just and right, and i oppose Christianity because of its failure to conform to what i believe are basic standards of justice and logic. my opposition to murder has nothing to do with whether or not Christians think it is wrong, nor does my opposition to theft. just because Christians happen to share some commonalities with every other moral code on the planet doesn't mean that Christians hold the moral copyright on those values.


You simply don't like some stances that some Christians take and thus Christianity becomes the "most interfering superstition". Well, I find your superstition to be most interfering onto my life... get over it.
again, i do not hold any superstition. if you wanted to use the word "beliefs" or "code of ethics" then that would be appropriate, but trying to use the word "superstition" is simply incorrect according to the definition of that word.

furthermore, if you see my choice to voice my opinion as "interfering" with your life, then i think you are a perfect example of the worst kind of Christian. as i said in my original post, i firmly support everyone's right to believe as they wish and enjoy freedom of speech, even if i strongly disagree with what they have to say, but you seem to hold the same ludicrous and cowardly values of most Christian fundamentalists i encounter: you think that somebody having a different opinion consistutes an infringement on your rights, and you think that you have the right to silence anybody who isn't prepared to bob their head in agreement with your personal delusions. don't like free speech? build a bridge to China and walk over it. ;)

Hey man, I'm tolerant of Christians! (I'm agnostic)

a fetus isn't a child.

an embryo isn't a child.

a zygote isn't a child.

so i really don't know what you're talking about there.
At seven months it will be a child. Don't believe me? Look it up.

And regardless, it WILL be a child. Whether you end it's life as a fetus or as a born child, you've still ended it's life.



As for the original point of the thread...Christians, like everyone else, have the right to say what they want to say. We cannot force our views on anyone, and I, for one, wouldn't want to. What we do is not force them on you, but tell them to you in the hopes that you will make the decision to agree.

Besides, it really bugs me when someone will say something, and everyone backs him, but a Christian will say the same thing with Christian motives behind it, and everyone, including the guy who said it first, will turn on them. And yes, this has happened here, and it has happened to me.


If you don't like what Christians say, deal. A lot of people say a lot of things I don't like, but I don't go on a massive rant about how horrible they are and how dare they force their views on me.

I would also like to point out the irony that by forcing people not to force you to believe something, you're forcing them to believe what you believe (ie, that they shouldn't force you).

Well, I consider myself a liberal and definitely not relative, but I still think that morals are not relative. There is one absolute truth about everything. The fact that many different people have different guesses about what that is is not surprising, but virtually all people come to the same conclusions about everything.
For example, because some of you out there feel like murdering people, I pay taxes to incarcerate you. This is certainly intolerance and discrimination. I am highly intolerant of murderers.
For these same reasons, I find it curious that so many American Christians, whose religion is rooted in profound pacifism, can see themselves as soldiers in a war on evil. No one entity is pure evil, not even Bin Laden or Hitler. I know that when I say that, someone's head explodes, but it's true. The reason that these guys need death is that they are so bad at figuring out the absolute truth that they prevent others from ever attempting to do so again.
I hate to generalize. I realize that many lefties like me have antagonized good, honest Christians who realize that many people find real truth in different ways. But, frankly, if you think that you've got such a monopoly on truth, then you'll be finding yourself ever closer to Bin Laden and Hitler.
Believe it or not, the reason that I don't believe Christ isn't the highest power isn't because MTV told me to, or because the liberally biased media mocks him or because of any of that. It simply doesn't work for me. If you want to talk about why, then that's another thread, but don't be so presumptuous.
Oh, and the reason that Muslims and Jews don't come on here and start publically decrying the practices that they do not share with you is because they are getting loads and loads of intolerance everywhere from New Jersey to France. You'll find that once you've been discriminated against, you'll probably be a little more sympathetic.

And regardless, it WILL be a child. Whether you end it's life as a fetus or as a born child, you've still ended it's life.

except that it's not even an individual organism for most of the pregnancy.

it doesn't fit the qualifications for "a life" thus no life is being ended except the lives of individual cells, something that you do when you scratch your arm.

I would also like to point out the irony that by forcing people not to force you to believe something, you're forcing them to believe what you believe (ie, that they shouldn't force you).

There is no irony in this. Finding irony in this is very harmful. Sometimes it's hard for me to explain as a libertarian or a social liberal in general that "we can only be intolerant of the intolerant," so let me articulate this so that there are no foul-ups.
When someone chooses an organized religion, they are abandoning logic. This practice is also known as adopting a faith. Faith means believing something that you can't prove. I don't think there's anything wrong with this. I do it, in fact. Adopting religion and/or spirituality involves setting down some arbitrary rules, and that's fine. People who choose to be intolerant here are doing on the most basic level. They are not working from reasoning or even necessarily consideration of others, but rather traditions that have worked within their respective religious group or family.
The second party is those who are intolerant of those who are intolerant on this base level. Unlike the first party, they are intolerant based upon reasoning, and recognition that their principles WHICH THEY CAN AND DO FOLLOW AS STRICTLY AS THE FIRST PARTY they recognize as arbitrary to others.
For instance, I wouldn't want a girl I knocked up to get an abortion, but I don't think that the women who do are doing so out of bad will.
Please, fellow liberals out there, defeating the idea that being intolerant of the intolerant is ironic or paradoxical will allow us to win in 2-4 years. I am dead serious. Please help me, if you knew what I was trying to say.

As for the original point of the thread...Christians, like everyone else, have the right to say what they want to say. We cannot force our views on anyone, and I, for one, wouldn't want to. What we do is not force them on you, but tell them to you in the hopes that you will make the decision to agree.


No, many Christians try to force us to behave by what they believe. I can deal with well meant preaching (I have the right to not listen). What I cannot deal is when Christians (or any religious group) get together and say "Hey, let's right laws to deny rights to those that don't agree with us." You may not do that, howeer there are plenty that do and those ar ethe Christians we get mad at.


If you don't like what Christians say, deal. A lot of people say a lot of things I don't like, but I don't go on a massive rant about how horrible they are and how dare they force their views on me.


Now I would like to point out to you that the vast majority of people who get mad at Christians don't get angry at what they "say". We get angry at what they DO. There's a big difference. Say what you like, do what you like in your own life, and leave me alone to do as I like in my own.


I would also like to point out the irony that by forcing people not to force you to believe something, you're forcing them to believe what you believe (ie, that they shouldn't force you).
[/QUOTE]

No, I want to force them to leave me alone. They can't still believe what they want. That however doesn't mean that they can DO what they want. There's a difference.

except that it's not even an individual organism for most of the pregnancy.

it doesn't fit the qualifications for "a life" thus no life is being ended except the lives of individual cells, something that you do when you scratch your arm.

I would just like to add to this discussion (and mind you I'm not pro-choice. . . I'm not pro-life either, just confused) that if you go with the argument that "it might be life one day" then you end up witht eh problem that every man who masturbates and every woman who ovulates without conceiving, is a mass murderer.

he didn't say that jesus accepted people's sin. he said that jesus accepted the people despite their sins.

isn't that what you guys like to teach anyways? that god and jesus offer divine, unconditional love?

unconditional live, by definition has nothing to do with what you've done. it's just love given for no reason and without restriction. no matter what the person does, you don't stop loving them. that is unconditional love.

jesus accepted and loved people for who they were, sinners or not.


After these things He went out and saw a tax collector named
Levi, sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow
Me." So he left all, rose up, and followed Him.

Then Levi gave Him a great feast in his own house. And there
were a great number of tax collectors and others who sat
down with them. And their scribes and the Pharisees
complained against His disciples, saying, "Why do You eat
and drink with tax collectors and sinners?"

Jesus answered and said to them, "Those who are well have
no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not
come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

yes jesus loved all. But he also tried to lead them from sin. In the end you choose one or the other. He accepted all people but he accepted them in to lead them from sin.

yes jesus loved all. But he also tried to lead them from sin. In the end you choose one or the other. He accepted all people but he accepted them in to lead them from sin.


Yes, but jesus had something modern christians dont...he was perfect. They are not, and often allow faith and emotion to make them overzealous.

just a quick note to say thanx for all the responses....but one thing i notice is the anger ofo relligion moving into political circles..yes i whole heartily agree the gov't should make no laws based on religion..however when something is put to a public vote how can you ask the voters to take their personal morals and beliefs out of their vote...i dont know..i suspect you cannot..this is one of the inherint flaws of democracy..the majority rules..if the majority believes something you dont ..too bad you just gotta deal with it..any thing else would not be democracy...

just a quick note to say thanx for all the responses....but one thing i notice is the anger ofo relligion moving into political circles..yes i whole heartily agree the gov't should make no laws based on religion..however when something is put to a public vote how can you ask the voters to take their personal morals and beliefs out of their vote...i dont know..i suspect you cannot..this is one of the inherint flaws of democracy..the majority rules..if the majority believes something you dont ..too bad you just gotta deal with it..any thing else would not be democracy...


God..i hate beating this to death...but its been said, we're a democratic republic..not a democracy. There were a LOT of provisions put into the constitution and law of the land that were intended to PREVENT democratic oppression by the majority.

Let me also take a moment to say that while i argue vehemently, i consider myself a christian. I believe Jesus died for our sins, I find it more amazing and in fact believe that rather than god in flesh, he was JUST a man and it brings me a lot more hope for my ability to be a good person. I believe that your relationship with god is a personal thing, and setting a fallible human being between you and him is a poor repayment for his sacrifice on our behalf. I also dont believe it serves our faith at all to be evangelical.....live by example...and if people ask...and they will at some point..then explain. Preaching in this day and age only alienates people.

God..i hate beating this to death...but its been said, we're a democratic republic..not a democracy. There were a LOT of provisions put into the constitution and law of the land that were intended to PREVENT democratic oppression by the majority.

Let me also take a moment to say that while i argue vehemently, i consider myself a christian. I believe Jesus died for our sins, I find it more amazing and in fact believe that rather than god in flesh, he was JUST a man and it brings me a lot more hope for my ability to be a good person. I believe that your relationship with god is a personal thing, and setting a fallible human being between you and him is a poor repayment for his sacrifice on our behalf. I also dont believe it serves our faith at all to be evangelical.....live by example...and if people ask...and they will at some point..then explain. Preaching in this day and age only alienates people.

sorry but republic or not we all just witnessed what happens when you put issues of this nature to a popular vote...

just a quick note to say thanx for all the responses....but one thing i notice is the anger ofo relligion moving into political circles..yes i whole heartily agree the gov't should make no laws based on religion..however when something is put to a public vote how can you ask the voters to take their personal morals and beliefs out of their vote...i dont know..i suspect you cannot..this is one of the inherint flaws of democracy..the majority rules..if the majority believes something you dont ..too bad you just gotta deal with it..any thing else would not be democracy...

I can't speak for other nations, but none that I know of is an actual democracy. We are modified versions called Representational Democracies or Republics. We elect the people to make our laws, presumably because they understand the Constitution and are supposed to be more objective and educated (in theory).

Further, we had safeguards in place to make sure that the majority cannot tyranize over the minority--IE the bill of rights. Supposedly, people are supposed to realize that the government cannot take rights away without good cause. Because "the majority wants to" is not a good cause. Why not? Because one day they might not be the majority and they shouldn't be tyrannized over then either.

sorry but republic or not we all just witnessed what happens when you put issues of this nature to a popular vote...

Where they shouldn't be put. There's a reason the founding fathers didn't want us to have nation wide votes on every issue. That's why you almost never see a national referendum on anything (IS there anything you can have them on? I'd appreciate hearing if anyone knows). Instead we have state referendums, though again I personally don't agree with that because the day to day people don't know enough about oru system of government (sadly). Its like people who believe God is referenced in the Consitution. You won't find that word anywhere in it. I'm not saying that people shouldnt' have their religious beliefs, but they should spend as much time learning about their government as they do their religion and should know how to separate the two.

believe it or not people i understand the whole democracy/republic thing..but as long as people are electing officials (especially career politicians) the politicians are going to vote on the issues the way their constituents want them to..(the majority of the time).
Here in Ms. even the democrats (u.s. senator Bennie Thompson..dem.) have come out against gay marriage because they want to stay elected..so republic or not it still comes down to what the majority of people want.
How can you ask people not to want a nation that reflects their personal beliefs..i don't blame gay people who want a legal marriage...abortion i have different feelings on..
besides the flaws of our democracy is not really what i was hoping to address here.

believe it or not people i understand the whole democracy/republic thing..but as long as people are electing officials (especially career politicians) the politicians are going to vote on the issues the way their constituents want them to..(the majority of the time).
Here in Ms. even the democrats (u.s. senator Bennie Thompson..dem.) have come out against gay marriage because they want to stay elected..so republic or not it still comes down to what the majority of people want.
How can you ask people not to want a nation that reflects their personal beliefs..i don't blame gay people who want a legal marriage...abortion i have different feelings on..
besides the flaws of our democracy is not really what i was hoping to address here.

How can I expect people not to want their personal beliefs reflected? Because I expect them to understand that one day those beliefs could easily be turned around and trampled on. Its good, common sense.

yes jesus loved all. But he also tried to lead them from sin. In the end you choose one or the other. He accepted all people but he accepted them in to lead them from sin.
but the thing about jesus is that he accepted them anyways, sins and all. he would have treated them the same if they stayed in their sins as if they'd gone and changed for him.

modern christians seem to only accept people if they change. otherwise, they yell and preach about how we're going to hell. did jesus do that? no. jesus didn't threaten them. jesus didn't try to scare them. jesus told them what he had to say and shared with them as friends do.

jesus did not judge others, as modern christians do either. as mother theresa said "if you judge people, you have no time to love them" and hell, jesus was perfect according to the bible and well, i'd say mother theresa was a pretty damn good person too, religious beliefs aside.

sorry but republic or not we all just witnessed what happens when you put issues of this nature to a popular vote...
what do you think would have happened if they put civil rights to a vote? do you honestly think that people who hate and fear black people would have said "oh yeah, they deserve the same rights as me and my white friends."

there's a point where human rights is more important than what the majority thinks.

As opposed to your own superstition? Hypocracy knows no single identity.

You say that Christianity forces itself into your life, so I assume you mean passing laws and such. Laws concerning abortion or gay marriage and others I assume. You know what... build a bridge and get over it. That's how a society works. People propose laws (either through initiatives or through government representatives). The people then get a chance to vote on it. If said initiative passes, it becomes law. If it fails it doesn't.

Don't like the direction things are headed? Start your own petition to put an initiative on some ballot somewhere and let the people decide.

A person's morals (and we all have them) have an effect on their decisions made in life. That is a good thing. That is a great thing.

You don't like a Christians stance on gay marriage or abortion (again, I have to assume), but what about murder? Should murder be allowed simply because it goes against Christian morals? What about theft? The 10 commandments oppose theft so it should be legal?

You simply don't like some stances that some Christians take and thus Christianity becomes the "most interfering superstition". Well, I find your superstition to be most interfering onto my life... get over it.

Excellent post!!

jesus loved all men but he never accepted their sin..he was always leading people to what he preached..read more of the bible before trying to interpret it to me

Yes, and if they rejected his teachings he left them alone.

Many christians today don't, which is why people get angry.

i think christians get picked on because they ask why people pick on them. I've seen this before on other forums, a christian person makes a thread asking why they get picked on because of their beliefs and people go into the thread and try to explain why but end up bashing eachother. Part of it is because christians actually do stand up for their beliefs and those who have other beliefs feel the need to explain why christians are wrong.
and possibly because all the really religious christians get a lot of publicity by bashing other religions and bringing up subjects that cause a lot of controversy.
besides, most of America is made up of christians or catholics.

its also hard to explain why a group in general gets picked on if the person explaining has never really picked on someone for their religion. now the only place where religion really matters is if you want to join the KKK or something. but thats a totally different story O_o;

I propose we boycott rights. No one gets rights, except me. Then everyone will stop bitching.

however when something is put to a public vote how can you ask the voters to take their personal morals and beliefs out of their vote...
There are a number of ways, but I have one. Sure, put gay marriage on the ballot, but require that people give reasons for voting. All reasons that contain opinions, or things that can't be proven (i.e. religion) should be cast out, along with the votes. That way, people have to find ways of proving why they hold those morals. A person's morals should come from things that can be proven, as opposed to holding a set of morals and looking for things that conform to them.
Or, you could put the Constitution up to a reratification. If it passes, then no one can make a law based upon religion, and gay marriage would be legalized, and abortion would stay that way. Or, if it fails, you could have the country break up into how many pieces, and people could live their lives the way they want to, and install a theocracy in their own piece if they want to.

I propose we boycott rights. No one gets rights, except me. Then everyone will stop bitching.
if you are the only one with rights, then does that mean you become our supreme leader?

That just goes without saying.

That just goes without saying.
spiffy, now i have another supreme ruler to obey! ^^

i am not superstitious, hence my condemnation of superstition is not hypocritical.
You are superstitious. Your assertion that all religion is superstition is itself superstitious. You just wont accept it because it's your values in question.
sorry, but i am not selfish enough to do what you propose. i believe that injustice can only exist as long as it is permitted to, so i will not be party to continued injustice. when unjust laws are passed, perpetuating a tyranny of the majority and lowering the quality of life of myself and my fellow citizens, i am not going to simply "get over it." i will work to correct the injustice, and to build a world where ignorance, fear, weakness, and dishonesty are no longer the basis for peoples' "morality."
But it is you that feels it is unjust. And your opinion is no more valid than those who feel it is just. You have no place deciding what another person bases their morality on. You seem to dispise religious people for "dictating" their morals on you, yet you seem perfectly willing to "dictate" your morals on them.
petitions are a waste, but don't you worry...i most certainly am politically active. i also volunteer in my community and become involved in a number of groups that work to eliminate the problems that i see around me. your assumption that i don't take action is cute, but please don't project your own selfish laziness onto me.
I don't assume that you don't take action. Calling me lazy is based on what? Do you know me? No more than I know you... I haven't called you lazy, just intollerant.
that is a HORRIBLE thing, if their "morals" are based on lies, misinformation, and personal weakness. simply having an opinion and acting on it isn't necessarily a good thing, not even if you call that opinion "moral."
To you it's "lies, misinformation, and personal weakness" yet you have no idea of what you speak. You presume to know the truth, yet it's all simply your own personal superstition of the absense of a higher power.
wow, what arrogance. do you really think that i support abortion and gay marriage just to piss off Christians? far from it...i support those things because i believe they are just and right, and i oppose Christianity because of its failure to conform to what i believe are basic standards of justice and logic. my opposition to murder has nothing to do with whether or not Christians think it is wrong, nor does my opposition to theft. just because Christians happen to share some commonalities with every other moral code on the planet doesn't mean that Christians hold the moral copyright on those values.
I didn't say you support something just to piss off Christians, yet your argument is that a persons opposition to abortion or gay marriage is wrong since it's based on religious views. So, you oppose those who oppose abortion/gay marriage because of their assumed religious views. I was extending it to the illogical extreme to prove a point. What you fail to realize is that people can oppose gay marriage or abortion for reasons other than religion. That fact simply escapes you.
again, i do not hold any superstition. if you wanted to use the word "beliefs" or "code of ethics" then that would be appropriate, but trying to use the word "superstition" is simply incorrect according to the definition of that word.
Main Entry: su·per·sti·tion
Pronunciation: "sü-p&r-'sti-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English supersticion, from Middle French, from Latin superstition-, superstitio, from superstit-, superstes standing over (as witness or survivor), from super- + stare to stand -- more at STAND
1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary

You suffer from "an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition" that God, or some other higher power does not exist.
furthermore, if you see my choice to voice my opinion as "interfering" with your life, then i think you are a perfect example of the worst kind of Christian. as i said in my original post, i firmly support everyone's right to believe as they wish and enjoy freedom of speech, even if i strongly disagree with what they have to say, but you seem to hold the same ludicrous and cowardly values of most Christian fundamentalists i encounter: you think that somebody having a different opinion consistutes an infringement on your rights, and you think that you have the right to silence anybody who isn't prepared to bob their head in agreement with your personal delusions. don't like free speech? build a bridge to China and walk over it. ;)
How is your "working to correct the injustice" any different from a Christian trying to "correct the injustice" they see? That is the basis of your hypocicy. Yet, true to the nature of hypocrites, you can not see it in yourself, despite evidence to the contrary.

You are superstitious. Your assertion that all religion is superstition is itself superstitious. You just wont accept it because it's your values in question.

perhaps you do not understand what the word "superstitious" refers to. superstition is an irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. it also refers to a belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by faith in magic, fate, or chance. my belief that religion is superstition is based on the definition of the word, and follows logically from the reality of our lexicon. it is not superstitious to believe that the propper use of words in the English language is correctly defined in dictionaries, therefore my belief that religion is superstitious is neither superstitious nor hypocritical.


But it is you that feels it is unjust. And your opinion is no more valid than those who feel it is just. You have no place deciding what another person bases their morality on. You seem to dispise religious people for "dictating" their morals on you, yet you seem perfectly willing to "dictate" your morals on them.

my moral code is as follows: since there is no objective right and wrong, and no objective standard by which to just the rightness or wrongness of any action, the only acts that should be prohibited by law are the acts that directly interfere with another human's ability to pursue life in accordance with their personals standards of right and wrong. in a nut shell, your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose. i believe that everybody should be free to practice whatever values they deem appropriate, provided that their doing so does not DIRECTLY stop another person from enjoying the same freedom.

i have no desire or intention to force religious people to think homosexuality is right. i don't want to force them to have abortions (well, not really...), and i don't want to force them to give up what i believe is a destructive, dishonest, and pathetic system of belief. i simply want to ensure that they are unable to force other people to conform to their delusions.

so basically i am forcing people to be free. damn, ain't i a stinker?


I don't assume that you don't take action. Calling me lazy is based on what? Do you know me? No more than I know you... I haven't called you lazy, just intollerant.

so you call me intollerant and i call you lazy. makes us about even, no? hmm...i hate when things are even. i think i will also call you arrogant! take that!


To you it's "lies, misinformation, and personal weakness" yet you have no idea of what you speak. You presume to know the truth, yet it's all simply your own personal superstition of the absense of a higher power.

i know exactly what i am talking about. you don't agree with me. that doesn't mean i don't know what i am talking about.

also, i don't hold any superstitions about the absense of a higher power. i am agnostic, and (by definition) that means i have absolutely no superstitions about the existence or non-existence of a higher power. i know your sort like to assume that anybody who isn't religious MUST be atheist, but that's your own narrowmindedness getting in your way...i'm not an atheist, i don't disbelieve in God, and i hold no beliefs about the existence or non-existence of God that don't follow PRECISELY from natural law. based on the definition of superstition, i am not superstitious. please look up words before you try to use them as insults, it will save time.


I didn't say you support something just to piss off Christians, yet your argument is that a persons opposition to abortion or gay marriage is wrong since it's based on religious views. So, you oppose those who oppose abortion/gay marriage because of their assumed religious views. I was extending it to the illogical extreme to prove a point. What you fail to realize is that people can oppose gay marriage or abortion for reasons other than religion. That fact simply escapes you.

no, i said that opposing somebody's right to choose what they do with their own body or who they choose for a life partner is wrong. if that opposition is based on religious views then it is particularly stupid, but it is no more or less wrong than holding those unjust views for secular reasons. the fact that people oppose gay marriage or abortion for secular reasons hasn't escaped me in the slightest, you simply jumped to a false conclusion about my beliefs.


You suffer from "an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition" that God, or some other higher power does not exist.

again, no, i don't. i am not an atheist. i hold no views about the existence or non-existence of God that fit the definition of superstition. just because you assume something about my beliefs doesn't make it true :).


How is your "working to correct the injustice" any different from a Christian trying to "correct the injustice" they see? That is the basis of your hypocicy. Yet, true to the nature of hypocrites, you can not see it in yourself, despite evidence to the contrary.
wow, there you go again, making things up. let's see if i can spell it out more clearly:

when i speak of injustice it is, of course, based on my definition of the word. there is no objective "justice," so the context is critical for this type of discussion. as i have prefaced my statements many times, I BELIEVE that it is impossible to enforce morality or justice if religion is involved at all, and I BELIEVE it is impossible for a religious person to have fully developed morality. i am quite aware that religious people think they are acting in the interests of justice. i think they are wrong. i freely and opennly acknowledge that, since justice is subjective, we are both equally "right" on this subject. we both will work toward what we think is just, and we will both think the other is promoting injustice or immorality.

i like how you also side-stepped my point about how you seem to think that anybody having a different opinion than your own constitutes "interference" with your life. are you going to own up to how childish and selfish that sounds? are you going to admit to yourself that it's your own damn fault if other people's opinions stop you from living your life? i'm not trying to legislate my beliefs, only trying to make sure that NOBODY can do that, while you are throwing mini-tantrums about the fact that people are allowed to disagree with you...do you really think that makes your position appear more respectable?

Can i jus ask what is up with people believin in Karma? no offence to Buddhists but i kno lots of people who arent Buddhist yet still believe in Karma... i mean how does calling sum1 a cow one day and the being bitten by an ant get connected together? if ur Buddhist then i can understand how u get it but lots of atheists and agnostics believe in Karma... sum1 plz explain...

“The condescension and elitism expressed by the left displays intolerance at its worst. The left is again exposed as hypocritical, preaching tolerance and inclusion, but practicing intolerance and exclusion of all ideas not in conformity with their own. Has it never occurred to liberals that they might be objectively wrong? . . . A majority of the public is tired of being forced to accept every ideology, sexual depravity, and secular idea the left wishes to shove down their throats.”

-Cal Thomas

I think that it has been hard lately for the left to emphasize tolerance as a virtue again. I think the difference between the left and the right on this matter (and apparently between you and me) is our view of tolerance itself.
Faith, Mr. Thomas, is believing something one cannot prove. This is the root of so many peoples’ lives, and, by the way, it is the root of my own. Ultimately, in perceiving the world reason must end, and many people find a higher power. Religion or spirituality delivers to them morals and values that are -- in light of reason -- purely arbitrary. I have many convictions myself that I cannot justify with reason, but that I hold in my own actions.
This established, I assert that the intolerance dished out by social conservatives (and particularly Protestants who are in the majority) is one based upon arbitrary rules that they hold for themselves or their sects. I argue that it is not paradoxical that the left might consider itself “intolerant of intolerance” because liberals do not (at least, they should not) attempt to legislate values that begin only with their respective visions of a higher power. I have my own faith-based values I follow, but I do not see them as legislatable in the United States. To do otherwise would be to establish a law “respecting an establishment of religion.”
I want to defend your right to act in disaccord with my values! The only moral system that can with reason be imposed upon the masses in the United States is one based on the idea that people can do whatever they choose, as long as they do not harm another, because that would prevent the other from ever establishing his or her own private morals in the first place.
I hope I am making this clear. I do not mean to be condescending, but if you consider homosexuals sexually depraved, I suggest that you not have sex with men. If you do not agree with abortion rights, I suggest that you share this belief with women you know and care about. If you believe that evolution is wrong or even immoral, I suggest you teach your children that it is, either yourself or through a faith-based school.
The social difference in the results of a liberal-controlled government and that of a conservative-controlled government is that when the former exists, all can pursue their own faiths without jailing one another.

perhaps you do not understand what the word "superstitious" refers to. superstition is an irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. it also refers to a belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by faith in magic, fate, or chance. my belief that religion is superstition is based on the definition of the word, and follows logically from the reality of our lexicon. it is not superstitious to believe that the propper use of words in the English language is correctly defined in dictionaries, therefore my belief that religion is superstitious is neither superstitious nor hypocritical.
It is superstition to believe that Christianity is "dishonorable, ignorant, and weak" (from post #45).
my moral code is as follows: since there is no objective right and wrong, and no objective standard by which to just the rightness or wrongness of any action, the only acts that should be prohibited by law are the acts that directly interfere with another human's ability to pursue life in accordance with their personals standards of right and wrong. in a nut shell, your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose. i believe that everybody should be free to practice whatever values they deem appropriate, provided that their doing so does not DIRECTLY stop another person from enjoying the same freedom.
There is objective right and wrong. There is a definite line between right and wrong. You seem to chose to ignore that. I can't help you there.
i have no desire or intention to force religious people to think homosexuality is right. i don't want to force them to have abortions (well, not really...), and i don't want to force them to give up what i believe is a destructive, dishonest, and pathetic system of belief. i simply want to ensure that they are unable to force other people to conform to their delusions.

so basically i am forcing people to be free. damn, ain't i a stinker?
Explain how the basic premise of love your neighbor, turn the other cheek or treat others as you want to be treated is destructive, dishonest and pathetic?

so you call me intollerant and i call you lazy. makes us about even, no? hmm...i hate when things are even. i think i will also call you arrogant! take that!


i know exactly what i am talking about. you don't agree with me. that doesn't mean i don't know what i am talking about.
No, you don't. You have a preconceived notion of what Christianity is.
also, i don't hold any superstitions about the absense of a higher power. i am agnostic, and (by definition) that means i have absolutely no superstitions about the existence or non-existence of a higher power. i know your sort like to assume that anybody who isn't religious MUST be atheist, but that's your own narrowmindedness getting in your way...i'm not an atheist, i don't disbelieve in God, and i hold no beliefs about the existence or non-existence of God that don't follow PRECISELY from natural law. based on the definition of superstition, i am not superstitious. please look up words before you try to use them as insults, it will save time.
I did look it up, I posted the definition here. I pointed out how you are superstitious.
no, i said that opposing somebody's right to choose what they do with their own body or who they choose for a life partner is wrong. if that opposition is based on religious views then it is particularly stupid, but it is no more or less wrong than holding those unjust views for secular reasons. the fact that people oppose gay marriage or abortion for secular reasons hasn't escaped me in the slightest, you simply jumped to a false conclusion about my beliefs.
But you again fail to realize that those who do oppose abortion/gay marriage feel the same way about you as you do about them. Their views are no more valid than your own. Yet you feel compeled to insult, deride and redicule them. You would force your views on them. You are not forcing them to have abortions, yet you ARE forcing them to accept abortions.
again, no, i don't. i am not an atheist. i hold no views about the existence or non-existence of God that fit the definition of superstition. just because you assume something about my beliefs doesn't make it true :).
You believe that Christianity is "dishonorable, ignorant, and weak" (again from post #45). There in lies your superstition.
wow, there you go again, making things up. let's see if i can spell it out more clearly:

when i speak of injustice it is, of course, based on my definition of the word. there is no objective "justice," so the context is critical for this type of discussion. as i have prefaced my statements many times, I BELIEVE that it is impossible to enforce morality or justice if religion is involved at all, and I BELIEVE it is impossible for a religious person to have fully developed morality. i am quite aware that religious people think they are acting in the interests of justice. i think they are wrong. i freely and opennly acknowledge that, since justice is subjective, we are both equally "right" on this subject. we both will work toward what we think is just, and we will both think the other is promoting injustice or immorality.
I made nothing up. You said you would work to correct the "injustice" as you see it. Those whom you rail against are simply working to correct the "injustice" as they see it. Different sides of the same coin. Their opinion is no more valid than your own, but yours is no more valid than theirs. You can't see that?
i like how you also side-stepped my point about how you seem to think that anybody having a different opinion than your own constitutes "interference" with your life. are you going to own up to how childish and selfish that sounds? are you going to admit to yourself that it's your own damn fault if other people's opinions stop you from living your life? i'm not trying to legislate my beliefs, only trying to make sure that NOBODY can do that, while you are throwing mini-tantrums about the fact that people are allowed to disagree with you...do you really think that makes your position appear more respectable?
I side-stepped nothing. You are forcing someone who truely believes abortion is wrong to accept your image of the world. You are forcing those who truely oppose gay marriage to accept your image of the world. You call people who oppose such things as stupid, arrogant, and in my case, lazy. Yet you are made of the same cloth as those whom you insult. You simply are unable to see the hypocricy in your own words.

Can i jus ask what is up with people believin in Karma? no offence to Buddhists but i kno lots of people who arent Buddhist yet still believe in Karma... i mean how does calling sum1 a cow one day and the being bitten by an ant get connected together? if ur Buddhist then i can understand how u get it but lots of atheists and agnostics believe in Karma... sum1 plz explain...

Well, Karma has a lot of different names, and many religions believe in Karma in some way or another. Christians say "you reap what you sow" while Wiccans have their law of threes. The simplistic way to think of Karma is to view life as a tapestry. All threads are connected to each other - in some way. Each and every action that a person undergoes affects the world around them and eventually that very same action will come back full circle. Karma states that every choice you make influences your life or afterlife. Because reincarnation is a large part of Buddism, Karma is often associated with past/future lives. I don't rememeber all the spheres of existance, but you go to the one your latest life fit in with the best. If you were a violent person, you might go to a plane of existance where there's endless war. I think there's another world entirely inhabited by animals. "Our" world, the human world, is apparently an average mix of strengths and weaknessess, but you have an excellent chance of reaching nirvanna from here.

For the record, most of that was from memory, pardon the rough edges.

e that?

I side-stepped nothing. You are forcing someone who truely believes abortion is wrong to accept your image of the world. You are forcing those who truely oppose gay marriage to accept your image of the world. You call people who oppose such things as stupid, arrogant, and in my case, lazy. Yet you are made of the same cloth as those whom you insult. You simply are unable to see the hypocricy in your own words.

Incorrect, the only people who are opposed to abortion or gay marriage are being forced to do is to tolerate those who aren't opposed. If you were being forced to have a gay marriage or to abort a problem, THEN they are forcing you to accept their world view.

The only thing people ask you to do is to tolerate others and to live your own life. We don't want to change the way you live your life--unless you mean we wnat you to leave us alone.

It is superstition to believe that Christianity is "dishonorable, ignorant, and weak" (from post #45).

No, it isn't. It may be prejudiced (although probably not, because it can be proved that it is all those things), but it isn't superstitious.

English. Do you speak it?

No, it isn't. It may be prejudiced (although probably not, because it can be proved that it is all those things), but it isn't superstitious.

English. Do you speak it?
For it to not be superstition, it must be proven, and since you say it can, please provide proof.

If you are able to provide proof, and not merely opinion, then I will retract my accusation of superstition and appologize.

For it to not be superstition, it must be proven, and since you say it can, please provide proof.

If you are able to provide proof, and not merely opinion, then I will retract my accusation of superstition and appologize.
many things that are unproven are not superstition. subjective opinions are not superstition, any more than individual emotional reactions are superstition. i stated my opinion of religion, and made it very clear (several times) that it is MY OPINION. i have specifically stated that i do not believe in objective definitions of value, therefore my opinion cannot possibly be construed as an attempt to define empirical reality.

open your dictionary, for crying out loud. you are mis-using the word "superstition," and it is getting very boring...please correct your error and move on.

It is superstition to believe that Christianity is "dishonorable, ignorant, and weak" (from post #45).

no, that is OPINION. opinion and superstition are not the same thing. read a book.


There is objective right and wrong. There is a definite line between right and wrong. You seem to chose to ignore that. I can't help you there.

it is impossible to ignore something that does not exist. if you assert that there is an objective morality then the burden of proof is on you.


Explain how the basic premise of love your neighbor, turn the other cheek or treat others as you want to be treated is destructive, dishonest and pathetic?

straw man.


No, you don't. You have a preconceived notion of what Christianity is.

my notion of Christianity is based on my consultations with practicing Christians, Christian religious leaders of varying sects, and my own personal examination of religious texts. you are right that i came into this discussion with an opinion of Christianity (hence that opinion is a "preconceived notion"), but you did too...pretty much anybody in America is going to have a "preconceived notion" of Christianity, because we are exposed to it constantly and humans have this funny habit of analyzing input and forming opinions.


I did look it up, I posted the definition here. I pointed out how you are superstitious.

sorry honey, but your "definition" is incorrect. please consult the Oxford English or Websters dictionaries. you are misusing a term, blatantly, and it's very silly of you.


But you again fail to realize that those who do oppose abortion/gay marriage feel the same way about you as you do about them. Their views are no more valid than your own.

um, actually, i SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT I UNDERSTOOD THAT. it would be nice if you would actually read my posts before responding.


Yet you feel compeled to insult, deride and redicule them.


i feel compelled to insult pretty much everybody. grow a spine.


You would force your views on them. You are not forcing them to have abortions, yet you ARE forcing them to accept abortions.

yes, just like how racists are forced to accept that black people can vote, and vegitarians are forced to accept that other people have the right to eat meat. forcing people to accept that they don't get to boss around their fellow citizens is something i am quite comfortable with.


You believe that Christianity is "dishonorable, ignorant, and weak" (again from post #45). There in lies your superstition.

no, therein lies my OPINION. i also think that pink is a hideous color...is that superstitious of me?


I made nothing up. You said you would work to correct the "injustice" as you see it. Those whom you rail against are simply working to correct the "injustice" as they see it. Different sides of the same coin. Their opinion is no more valid than your own, but yours is no more valid than theirs. You can't see that?


i have already stated my response to this, twice. if you aren't going to bother reading what i post then i won't bother reading what you post. please show the respect you would like to receive.


I side-stepped nothing. You are forcing someone who truely believes abortion is wrong to accept your image of the world. You are forcing those who truely oppose gay marriage to accept your image of the world. You call people who oppose such things as stupid, arrogant, and in my case, lazy. Yet you are made of the same cloth as those whom you insult. You simply are unable to see the hypocricy in your own words.
i am forcing those people to accept that other people are free to make their own choices. by your logic, your very existence is a violation of my rights, because you disagree with me. by holding views i don't agree with, you are FORCING your beliefs on me. my neighbor's enjoyment of the color pink FORCES me to see that odious color every day when i pass her in the hall, and therefore she should be forbidden to enjoy pink because doing so tramples my rights!

grow up, seriously. if you don't like abortions, don't have one. don't like gays? don't be one. don't like heathens? pray until your knees bleed. but quit expecting the rest of the world to hide its opinions to spare your tender little feelings. you're not being oppressed any more than any other human; everybody has different opinions, so by your logic we are all oppressing the crap out of each other, and that makes us even. deal with it.

jesus loved all men but he never accepted their sin..he was always leading people to what he preached..read more of the bible before trying to interpret it to me

Very true but Jesus was one with God. He taught US that we are all sinners and thus unworthy to judge other sinners. In fact it was one of his most powerful messages! To not feel rightous. To be accepting and loving of all and leave the final judgements to God.

Modern evangelical Christianity is about human politics not god and most certainly about Jesus. :( Think about what the biggest issues are within the evangelical movement. I will not name them. But it would take a complete lack of intellect not to make the connection between the preservation of a patriarcal society and those issues.

Jesus' message was to love as he loved and not judge. Period. Any human being who judges another is absolutely NOT a true Christian.

Very true but Jesus was one with God. He taught US that we are all sinners and thus unworthy to judge other sinners. In fact it was one of his most powerful messages! To not feel rightous. To be accepting and loving of all and leave the final judgements to God.

Modern evangelical Christianity is about human politics not god and most certainly about Jesus. :( Think about what the biggest issues are within the evangelical movement. I will not name them. But it would take a complete lack of intellect not to make the connection between the preservation of a patriarcal society and those issues.

Jesus' message was to love as he loved and not judge. Period. Any human being who judges another is absolutely NOT a true Christian.

Well done. I can back that up for Catholics specifically. A human being can judge actions and deeds, but never people. If someone's judgemental about another, they're just using religion as an excuse to get what they want.

You tolerate a cold, you tolerate something you don't like; put up with. That way when they call you intolerant it sounds that much worse.

If it was changed to "accepting", saying someone is "unaccepting" doesn't have the same harsh ring or negative connotation.

It does have its limits though.

I don't get why people on here are talking about Christians being wrong for imposing their morals, it's no lie that religion hasn't affected them but so would life experience (etc). It's also no different from atheists imposing their morals on the religious who may disagree. To solve this arguement you could always ban the religious from having any political power. . . or you could ban the atheists and have a theocracy. Neither of these solutions would be democratic though, but at least it would mean that only one group would be pissed off.

Well see cause morals are relative. Not so long ago it would have been immoral for a white woman to marry a black man. (to some neandrathals it probably still is immoral) A very long time ago it would have been immoral to sleep in the same bed as your wife if she was having her menses. Laws are not supposed to be based on morals but the good of society as a whole. The cool thing as most laws that are good for society as a whole jibe with the moral code of the majority of people. Some people don't want people to steal cause its a sin, others just want recourse when they crap goes missing. :P Everyone is happy.

The problem is with some legal issues like ohhhh say abortion and gay marriage. There is no societal reason to prohibit abortion. (Someone elses baby does not affect your life) There is no societal reason to prohibit gay marriage. (You don't have to attend the honeymoon)

THIS is where people get uptight with the (cough) Christian (cough cough) majority. Everyone gets that this is against what you believe. Simple solution for you...don't get an abortion if you think its wrong, don't get married if you are gay and think its wrong, and um don't BE gay if you think its wrong (good luck with that one). There your moral code is intact! Let the laws work for ALL of society, though, not just your moral compass.

As a related question. One could debate the harm to society as a whole effected by abortion. The whole "aborted fetus could have cured cancer!" news at 11 thing. But I'd really love to hear one good logical reason why gay marriage would be bad for society. Not Christians, but SOCIETY! I'm a happily married hetero-sexual female. I can tell you without question that two gay people getting married will not make my marriage mean less. It will not threaten or harm me or my family in any way. What am I missing?

Y are people today much blaming christians? Because the extremists are the one who are more vocal. It's like in any other religion...look at those Muslim extremists in Irak or at the Jew extremists in the Middle East...the newspapers will never talk about those regular Jews, Muslims, Christians or any other religion just trying to make their lives and not caring about whatsoever else's religion. They will always talk about Bush taking a war on terrorist "on the name of God" or about those crazy Muslim extremists who are about to cut the head of a journalist or of a peacekeeper...its always like that!!!

N by the way...nice choise on November 2nd, Americans (sarcasm)

You mean nice choice just over half of you American, don't you? Did nearly half the country cease to exist? Did I miss the memo? (sarcasm)

If you don't like what Christians say, deal. A lot of people say a lot of things I don't like, but I don't go on a massive rant about how horrible they are and how dare they force their views on me.

I would also like to point out the irony that by forcing people not to force you to believe something, you're forcing them to believe what you believe (ie, that they shouldn't force you).

OMG...nice try. Buzzzz thanks for playing.

That latter statement is what gives Christians a bad name. As a Christian I resent the hell out of it. How DARE people feel they have the right, in a country founded on the principle of serperation of church and state, NOT to have your religious dogma crammed down their throats. How insanely in tolerant of them!

You argument is akin to me saying you should be executed and the fact that you feel you don't feel you did anything worthy of that punishment is hypocritical.

Nobody is forcing a Christian to believe anything. Noone is running around forcing Christians to have abortions or same sex marriages! But guess what? There are plenty of Christians trying to force the opposite on non-Christians. You think Jesus gives extra credit for snooping around other people's lives? Oy.

Ok here's the right way to be a good Christian (as I interpret the word)... We'll use the abortion issue because it is a little more clear than other issues as far as the Christian morality goes:

You are a Christian and personally know a fellow Christian or someone else you personally care about who is contemplating an abortion.

You have a heart to heart private conversation with said person and offer help at any and ALL personal cost to yourself, up to AND including taking all financial and custodial responsibility of the "child" you are wishing to save (to also "save" the person you care so much about). It's ok to HOPE that you don't have to personally pay for all medical expenses and raise this child (you're only human) but you ARE ready, willing and able to do so. You are also prepared to care for the mother throughout her pregnancy. That's what Jesus would do.

Jesus would also give away all his worldly posessions (actually would not have any to begin with). When a homeless, computerless, moneyless, "carless", and any and all "stuffless", Christian wants to force people to live a Christian life I will respect that.

It's easy to think of someone who takes 2000 year old as modern perfection as a little incompitent. Generally a christian views cannot be backed by anything but christian views and cannot be proven or disproven due to a blind (And apparently deaf) faith. Frequently christians enjoy butting in on others lives just to tell them whats wrong with them, and when asked to leave they give an unwelcome "I'll prey for you", this ignornace of personal space is also seen as rather idiodic. Notice the words "Easy to", "Generally", "Many times" and "Frequently". To contrast this is Easy to find a christian that Generally won't infringe on your personally beliefs. And Many Tiems you'll Frequently not be bothered by them. But I have given you your reasons.

A blind and deaf faith?! Faith is called faith instead of fact because it believes in what cannot be proved. God doesn't want people to believe in him because it's been scientifically proven, God wants people to believe in him because they feel it in their hearts. I am a Christian. And I HATE it when other Christians, or anyone of any other faith, (though honestly I've only experienced it with Christians) does push their values on me, as if they are better than me. However I do believe and hope to serve through Missions. I hope to be the missionary that doesn't push values on people, but is used as a resource. Someone that if you have any questions about how the Christian faith is, I'll be there to answer your questions. I don't believe that pushing religion down anyone's throat is very effective. Because if its going to mean anything to you at all, it has to come out of your own willingness to seek it. There are some areas of the world where it is a day's travel to the nearest Church, and that people in remote areas haven't ever heard of Jesus. I'm sorry if responding to this makes me "intrusive" or if I've "pushed" my values on you, but I'm simply defending what I believe in, and in so doing, not being all that different than anyone else who has posted their opinion. Isn't this what threads are about? Being able to post your opinion? Sure, people disagree, and have the right to. But why is it that someone's opinion must be wrong, and some other's right? Are we all really that blood-thirsty? Why can't it simply be a difference of opinion?

Yeah and your right to do what you want ends when a child is killed. Is is pc to kill a child? Maybe I'm off-base... but I don't think so...

I can't imagine to what you're referring. There's no 'child' involved in abortions. Nor are there any 'babies'.

Emotive terms just push people away from your point of view, and piss off the opposition.

And I can kill as many children as I want, if it's by refusing to donate my blood/organs to them.

I really have no problem with Christians. As long as they don't harrass me (I feel your free to do what you want unless it bothers another)

And with harrassing I mean actually sending e-mail abouts how I am damned, have to convert, etcetera. If they wish to make comments like that on a board, fine by me. I can easily ignore that. Just a voice in the crowd if you will.

Nah, Christians aren't a problem in my eyes. For all their faults the majority of them really does seek to help others in what they belief is the only way.

I have more problems with those who don't want to help but persecute, and you find those more in other groups. (Even comparisonly so.)

I really have no problem with Christians. As long as they don't harrass me (I feel your free to do what you want unless it bothers another)

And with harrassing I mean actually sending e-mail abouts how I am damned, have to convert, etcetera. If they wish to make comments like that on a board, fine by me. I can easily ignore that. Just a voice in the crowd if you will.

Nah, Christians aren't a problem in my eyes. For all their faults the majority of them really does seek to help others in what they belief is the only way.

I have more problems with those who don't want to help but persecute, and you find those more in other groups. (Even comparisonly so.)

What if they were harrassing you by telling you you had to be plugged into another person by your bloodstream, and had to remain like that for nine months?

What if they were harrassing you by making it illegal for you to ever get married, or so that your marriage would henceforth be null and void? Through a government that is not meant to rule based on one religion?

Would you really sit back and not care if a religious base was trying to pull your legal rights out from under you?

Personally, I only respect the religious folk who can keep their choice of religion as what it should be - a personal choice. When people tell me they'll 'pray' for me, it doesn't make me feel good. It makes me sick.

The very best people are those who can say 'I don't agree with your actions, but I will not force you to follow my beliefs'. Not just in religion either - everyone should be allowed to make their own choices and own mistakes - unless, naturally, that prevents someone else doing the same.

Would you really sit back and not care if a religious base was trying to pull your legal rights out from under you?

Well there's the point, in this country it's muslims and not Christians who do that stuff.

As such I have no problems with Christians but with Muslims. Most Christians in this country are like the rest of it's people, fairly liberal.

As for people who will pray for me... Unlike you I wouldn't feel sick but actually flattered in a sense. That they pray for me does mean they care, that's good. And yet by praying they hope I come to the 'right' conclusion on my own, rather then throwing me to dead by small black bible books.

i dont think christians impose their morals on people at all. They just air their view/beliefs just like n e other religion really. u either choose to believe or choose not to believe. simple.......

:rolleyes:

Well there's the point, in this country it's muslims and not Christians who do that stuff.
Interesting, what country do you live in?

Interesting, what country do you live in?

The Netherlands. Charming little country right beside Germany, above Belgium and along the Channel. *refuses to call it the English Channel*

also every single religion encourages its members to go out and spread whatever paricular brand of good news it bears to the world..it is just inherint in religion..and a good majority of those oppose the death of anyone including the unborn..and a good majority of those find marriage a institution between man and woman

that is the whole reason christans are "infringing" on your rights
they are just trying to get their beliefs/their interests into law
you are supposed to try to get laws that help you made
and do get me started on how bad atheists try to convert me, I have not seen anyone in my life who was so, a./ disrespectful b./intruding c./ ignorant that I did not share their beliefs

The Netherlands. Charming little country right beside Germany, above Belgium and along the Channel. *refuses to call it the English Channel*

lol

A blind and deaf faith?! Faith is called faith instead of fact because it believes in what cannot be proved. God doesn't want people to believe in him because it's been scientifically proven, God wants people to believe in him because they feel it in their hearts. I am a Christian. And I HATE it when other Christians, or anyone of any other faith, (though honestly I've only experienced it with Christians) does push their values on me, as if they are better than me. However I do believe and hope to serve through Missions. I hope to be the missionary that doesn't push values on people, but is used as a resource. Someone that if you have any questions about how the Christian faith is, I'll be there to answer your questions. I don't believe that pushing religion down anyone's throat is very effective. Because if its going to mean anything to you at all, it has to come out of your own willingness to seek it. There are some areas of the world where it is a day's travel to the nearest Church, and that people in remote areas haven't ever heard of Jesus. I'm sorry if responding to this makes me "intrusive" or if I've "pushed" my values on you, but I'm simply defending what I believe in, and in so doing, not being all that different than anyone else who has posted their opinion. Isn't this what threads are about? Being able to post your opinion? Sure, people disagree, and have the right to. But why is it that someone's opinion must be wrong, and some other's right? Are we all really that blood-thirsty? Why can't it simply be a difference of opinion?

HEAR HEAR :D

OMG...nice try. Buzzzz thanks for playing.

That latter statement is what gives Christians a bad name. As a Christian I resent the hell out of it. How DARE people feel they have the right, in a country founded on the principle of serperation of church and state, NOT to have your religious dogma crammed down their throats. How insanely in tolerant of them!

You argument is akin to me saying you should be executed and the fact that you feel you don't feel you did anything worthy of that punishment is hypocritical.

Nobody is forcing a Christian to believe anything. Noone is running around forcing Christians to have abortions or same sex marriages! But guess what? There are plenty of Christians trying to force the opposite on non-Christians. You think Jesus gives extra credit for snooping around other people's lives? Oy.

Ok here's the right way to be a good Christian (as I interpret the word)... We'll use the abortion issue because it is a little more clear than other issues as far as the Christian morality goes:

You are a Christian and personally know a fellow Christian or someone else you personally care about who is contemplating an abortion.

You have a heart to heart private conversation with said person and offer help at any and ALL personal cost to yourself, up to AND including taking all financial and custodial responsibility of the "child" you are wishing to save (to also "save" the person you care so much about). It's ok to HOPE that you don't have to personally pay for all medical expenses and raise this child (you're only human) but you ARE ready, willing and able to do so. You are also prepared to care for the mother throughout her pregnancy. That's what Jesus would do.

Jesus would also give away all his worldly posessions (actually would not have any to begin with). When a homeless, computerless, moneyless, "carless", and any and all "stuffless", Christian wants to force people to live a Christian life I will respect that.

so sarcastic,
"Nobody is forcing a Christian to believe anything. Noone is running around forcing Christians to have abortions or same sex marriages! But guess what? There are plenty of Christians trying to force the opposite on non-Christians. You think Jesus gives extra credit for snooping around other people's lives? Oy."

it isn't snooping when we are trying to spread the word of god
he is a fact for you
ALL RELIGIONS DO THAT
all of them,they all spread their faith/s

even an anti-faith (atheism) spreads what they belive quite forcefully maybe even more so the christians

so sarcastic,
"Nobody is forcing a Christian to believe anything. Noone is running around forcing Christians to have abortions or same sex marriages! But guess what? There are plenty of Christians trying to force the opposite on non-Christians. You think Jesus gives extra credit for snooping around other people's lives? Oy."

it isn't snooping when we are trying to spread the word of god
he is a fact for you
ALL RELIGIONS DO THAT
all of them,they all spread their faith/s

even an anti-faith (atheism) spreads what they belive quite forcefully maybe even more so the christians
But not so through the legal system.

The trouble with Christians, basically, is that they have no dress sense at all, so it's extremely difficult to be tolerant when talking to one. All I want to do is scream "get a mirror, dickhead!" at them. :headbang:

it isn't snooping when we are trying to spread the word of god
he is a fact for you
ALL RELIGIONS DO THAT
all of them,they all spread their faith/s

even an anti-faith (atheism) spreads what they belive quite forcefully maybe even more so the christians
Not so. It's only Semitic root religions that try to do that. Eastern religions do not specify conversion or 'spreading the word.'

Also I have never had an atheist force their views on me in any way. I've had discussions with them, but it's always been two-sided. On the other hand I've had Christians come to my front door uninvited, hand me pamphlets, try to convert me and speak to me in a condescending manner like I'm some savage heathen. They're like market research people calling at dinner time.

My problems with christianity? I wouldn't know where to start... It is their constant obbsession with pushing others who are not of their own religion around. They believe they have 'devine right' to convert the heathens. Much like the Monarchs of old. I also see the loopholes in the Bible, it says stuff like god gave us free will, so it is up to his warshippers to convert the non believers. I mean, what pile of bullcrap is that? I think they are snoobish, pushy hippocrits.
Last week, a local highschool paid for the removal of some bricks in the walkway, in which there were crosses engraved. The christians were pissed, saying it was discrimination and during the night, painted crosses on the new walkway.
This kinda crap makes me angry, they feel it is their devine right to infringe on the rights of others, and have their symbol placed at every intersection, even at schools. They are being discriminated against? I think not.

If you would stop playing the victam, than I would not be so angry. It is not your job to legislate who believes what. If you feel you wanna waste your time praying to a guy whos not even there, go ahead, but don't drag others into it. And just remember, all things come to an end, individuals, empires, even the continents are worn away by the sea. Maybe its time for some other religion that appeals to the basic human weaknesses to appear.

Ok, I am a proud Christian here and I believe what these people are saying. Christians are just as bad as... say... the Muslim extremists that Bush so hates in trying to force the religion on other people. God says encourage, not to force. Also, Christians are the ones who are infringing on our secular nation. I will gladly worship my Lord, and honestly, it hurts to think that somebody would be biased against me for my religion, but I'm not going to try to put my beliefs on the table of a "separation of church and state" nation. And, seeing as we are such, Christians are the only ones who have thus far violated this rule.
And you can't even use the Middle East as an example. Because they never aimed to be secular. We did.

Ok, I am a proud Christian here and I believe what these people are saying. Christians are just as bad as... say... the Muslim extremists that Bush so hates in trying to force the religion on other people. God says encourage, not to force. Also, Christians are the ones who are infringing on our secular nation. I will gladly worship my Lord, and honestly, it hurts to think that somebody would be biased against me for my religion, but I'm not going to try to put my beliefs on the table of a "separation of church and state" nation. And, seeing as we are such, Christians are the only ones who have thus far violated this rule.
And you can't even use the Middle East as an example. Because they never aimed to be secular. We did.

<applause>

This (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.3799:) is why I really, really, really don't like neo-conservatives and their evangelist base.

just a quick note to say thanx for all the responses....but one thing i notice is the anger ofo relligion moving into political circles..yes i whole heartily agree the gov't should make no laws based on religion..however when something is put to a public vote how can you ask the voters to take their personal morals and beliefs out of their vote...i dont know..i suspect you cannot..this is one of the inherint flaws of democracy..the majority rules..if the majority believes something you dont ..too bad you just gotta deal with it..any thing else would not be democracy...

It is not hard Galddis. I have very strong personal moral beliefs and spiritual beliefs. But when I vote, I think about what it means to be American not a Christian or specific religion. Anyone with the slightest hint of a clue can understand that not all religions have the same dogma or even the same God. They also know not everyone even believes there IS a God.

When I go to the polls to vote I take into consideration if the proposed law or candidate is going to remove my right to follow my own moral code or religious belief. I will vote against anyone or anything that would force me personally to do something I think immoral or wrong. However, if the said candidate or issue will not force me to do something ( that is me as in me personally)to do something I am firmly opposed to on a moral or religious grounds, I vote as an American without religion.

America is about rights and freedom and choice. Anything that takes away or prevents rights based on ANYTHING but the well being of society is wrong. Anything that prevents freedom PERIOD is wrong. Anything that prevents choice is wrong because without choice there is no freedom and arguably no rights.

sorry but republic or not we all just witnessed what happens when you put issues of this nature to a popular vote...

Wasn't Hitler popular too? I know I know... inflamatory example. But seriously, just because something is popular does not mean it is right.

Christians at one time were a very small minority. (Actually they are still the minority in the world) Does this make them inherently wrong?

This is going to sound harsh but most people are not that smart. I love what Geroge Carlin said, "Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that HALF the people are stupider than that." I am not calling you stupid. But simply being on the side of the so called majority does not automatically make you right.

If the majority of people had a clue there would be no reality TV. ;)

Wasn't Hitler popular too? I know I know... inflamatory example. But seriously, just because something is popular does not mean it is right.

Christians at one time were a very small minority. (Actually they are still the minority in the world) Does this make them inherently wrong?

This is going to sound harsh but most people are not that smart. I love what Geroge Carlin said, "Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that HALF the people are stupider than that." I am not calling you stupid. But simply being on the side of the so called majority does not automatically make you right.

If the majority of people had a clue there would be no reality TV. ;)

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Where they shouldn't be put. There's a reason the founding fathers didn't want us to have nation wide votes on every issue. That's why you almost never see a national referendum on anything (IS there anything you can have them on? I'd appreciate hearing if anyone knows). Instead we have state referendums, though again I personally don't agree with that because the day to day people don't know enough about oru system of government (sadly). Its like people who believe God is referenced in the Consitution. You won't find that word anywhere in it. I'm not saying that people shouldnt' have their religious beliefs, but they should spend as much time learning about their government as they do their religion and should know how to separate the two.

Amen. Sorry for the religious reference. :) But some of us with religious beliefs DO understand the seperation of church and state! I guess I'm kind of a "cheater" since I do not accept the dogma of my relgion. But I do believe in God and Christ and I do not want my government anywhere NEAR that, one way or the other. What the bible thumpers do not get is the quagmire they get us into opening the door to state sanctioned religion. Right now Christians are the majority in this country but it most probably will not always be the case. Are they going to be so accepting of this religious majority rule thing when its a majority of muslims? Somehow I doubt it.

FYI nothing intended to insult muslims. Just recognizing the worlds largest religion. :)

Can i jus ask what is up with people believin in Karma? no offence to Buddhists but i kno lots of people who arent Buddhist yet still believe in Karma... i mean how does calling sum1 a cow one day and the being bitten by an ant get connected together? if ur Buddhist then i can understand how u get it but lots of atheists and agnostics believe in Karma... sum1 plz explain...

I cannot speak for athieists. But a Christian might say you reap what you sow. Same principle.

I cannot speak for athieists. But a Christian might say you reap what you sow. Same principle.

Most religions follow SOMETHING along the lines of "If you're an evil bastard, shit's gonna happen to you"

so sarcastic,
"Nobody is forcing a Christian to believe anything. Noone is running around forcing Christians to have abortions or same sex marriages! But guess what? There are plenty of Christians trying to force the opposite on non-Christians. You think Jesus gives extra credit for snooping around other people's lives? Oy."

it isn't snooping when we are trying to spread the word of god
he is a fact for you
ALL RELIGIONS DO THAT
all of them,they all spread their faith/s

even an anti-faith (atheism) spreads what they belive quite forcefully maybe even more so the christians

No no what I said was not sarcastic. Jesus shunned all material things. Why is it evangelical Christians are so righteous to a fault up to the point where they have to donate their computer to an orphanage, their car to the homeless and their IRA to a random person walking down the street?

I am a Christian (Catholic to be specific). I KNOW I am a sinner. If I was truely walking the path of Christ I would not be on this computer right now arguing, I would not even have a computer as long as there was one hungry person in the entire world.

My point was not sarcastic. My point was Christians can spread the word of God when they actually are living the word of God. Mother Teresa? She could spread the word of God, she was living it. If there is a living Christian actually lving the word of God, then they can feel free to spread that word.

Otherwise if they are like me and have enough on their plate just trying to be the best person they can be, while sinning through their personal material wealth while others have zip, they can do like me and concentrate on their own sins.