NationStates Jolt Archive

here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/international/europe/09dutch.html)

Despite what is claimed on this board, it seems not everyone in Europe is as enlightened as they claim. I guess their media is, in fact, as biased as fox news after all.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.


{B]Dutch Muslim School Bombed; Link to Killing Suspected
By CRAIG S. SMITH[/B]

Published: November 9, 2004

EINDHOVEN, the Netherlands, Nov. 8 - A bomb damaged a Muslim elementary school here before dawn on Monday, in what the authorities say they believe was intended as an act of revenge for the killing of a Dutch filmmaker last week.

No one was wounded in the attack, in which a medium-sized bomb exploded outside the Tarieq Ibnu Zyad Islamic school. The blast blew out windows and knocked the school's green doors ajar. Late in the day, police investigators in white protective suits continued to comb the wreckage for clues.

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The Dutch authorities have been bracing for reprisals against Muslims after the killing on Nov. 2 of Theo van Gogh, a filmmaker widely known for his mocking criticism of conservative Muslims. The main suspect in the killing is a young Muslim who sought to make contact with militant groups in the past.

The bombing was the most serious incident of anti-Muslim violence in recent days, but not the only one. Extra police officers have been put on the streets of some cities, and politicians have appealed for calm before Mr. van Gogh's funeral on Tuesday, which is also the anniversary of Kristallnacht, the wave of anti-Semitic attacks pushed by Hitler in 1938. The anniversary has inspired anti-immigration acts in Europe in the past.

Mr. van Gogh's killing has unleashed widespread anger toward the country's growing conservative Muslim population, much of which rejects the liberal tenets of Dutch society. The conflict is echoed across Europe, where decades of gradual Muslim immigration have created communities that are often at odds with the larger societies.

But Muslims argue that those frustrations, fueled by a fear of terrorism, unfairly taint the country's broader Muslim population. Eindhoven's 20,000 Muslims, in particular, say they have been battling a reputation for harboring Islamic extremists since the town was cited in news reports several years ago.

After the explosion on Monday, the city's mayor called for unity.

"It is essential that we stick together," the mayor, Alexander Sakkers, said after a news conference at the city hall. "We are a multicultural society working very well together, and we can't allow a few idiots to pull us apart."

Last year, firebombs were thrown through the windows of the same school, setting a hallway on fire. That attack appeared to have been a reaction to the acquittal of 12 men who had been charged with recruiting Muslims in the Netherlands for Islamic holy wars abroad.

Al Fourqaan mosque, which shares a building with Al Fourqaan Islamic Center, the organization that operates the school, was investigated on suspicion of taking part in the recruiting network after two young Eindhoven men who had attended the mosque were killed in Kashmir, the territory contested by India and Pakistan.

Subsequent reports said two of the hijackers in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, once attended a conference at the mosque, a charge that leaders of the mosque deny.

"It's ludicrous," said Saeed Muhammad, spokesman for the mosque, complaining that accusations in the news media take on a life of their own. He called the bombing on Monday "an act of terror against Muslims and kids at the same time" and decried a double standard that taints all Muslims for acts carried out by individuals like Mr. van Gogh's killer.

Mr. Sakkers, the mayor, said the investigation of the mosque had found no wrongdoing and insisted that the city did not deserve its reputation as an extremist hotbed. "There are no groups of extremists here," he said.

City officials said late Monday that investigators had yet to determine the kind of explosive used or the identity of the attackers. They ordered round-the-clock police protection of the school and the city's five main mosques.


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Interesting article. If your a member. What suprises me is that the government now has all muslim facililties in those cities under 24 hour guard. While they could not spare the manpower to protect Fortuyn or Van Gogh.
And oh yeah. They had it coming a long time.

here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/international/europe/09dutch.html)

Despite what is claimed on this board, it seems not everyone in Europe is as enlightened as they claim. I guess their media is, in fact, as biased as fox news after all.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.

Oooh, log-in page. Very convincing argument.:)

Care to post the article so I don't have to login.

As to terrorisng? Well there are two sides to the coin.

We have a guy from Belgium and he says that depending on where you live, you take your life in your hands if you say anything remotely bad about Islam. Woman are getting hastled for not having the heads covered....

A couple Dutch ministers went into hiding because of Death threats from the "oppressed."

Don't forget the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh......

As to your media point, all media outlets are biased to one way or another. And you hereby have my official authorization to slap anyone who says a certain media outlet is unbiased upside the head.

Posted.

Dutch Muslim School Bombed; Link to Killing Suspected
By CRAIG S. SMITH

Published: November 9, 2004


INDHOVEN, the Netherlands, Nov. 8 - A bomb damaged a Muslim elementary school here before dawn on Monday, in what the authorities say they believe was intended as an act of revenge for the killing of a Dutch filmmaker last week.

No one was wounded in the attack, in which a medium-sized bomb exploded outside the Tarieq Ibnu Zyad Islamic school. The blast blew out windows and knocked the school's green doors ajar. Late in the day, police investigators in white protective suits continued to comb the wreckage for clues

The Dutch authorities have been bracing for reprisals against Muslims after the killing on Nov. 2 of Theo van Gogh, a filmmaker widely known for his mocking criticism of conservative Muslims. The main suspect in the killing is a young Muslim who sought to make contact with militant groups in the past.

The bombing was the most serious incident of anti-Muslim violence in recent days, but not the only one. Extra police officers have been put on the streets of some cities, and politicians have appealed for calm before Mr. van Gogh's funeral on Tuesday, which is also the anniversary of Kristallnacht, the wave of anti-Semitic attacks pushed by Hitler in 1938. The anniversary has inspired anti-immigration acts in Europe in the past.

Mr. van Gogh's killing has unleashed widespread anger toward the country's growing conservative Muslim population, much of which rejects the liberal tenets of Dutch society. The conflict is echoed across Europe, where decades of gradual Muslim immigration have created communities that are often at odds with the larger societies.

But Muslims argue that those frustrations, fueled by a fear of terrorism, unfairly taint the country's broader Muslim population. Eindhoven's 20,000 Muslims, in particular, say they have been battling a reputation for harboring Islamic extremists since the town was cited in news reports several years ago.

After the explosion on Monday, the city's mayor called for unity.

"It is essential that we stick together," the mayor, Alexander Sakkers, said after a news conference at the city hall. "We are a multicultural society working very well together, and we can't allow a few idiots to pull us apart."

Last year, firebombs were thrown through the windows of the same school, setting a hallway on fire. That attack appeared to have been a reaction to the acquittal of 12 men who had been charged with recruiting Muslims in the Netherlands for Islamic holy wars abroad.

Al Fourqaan mosque, which shares a building with Al Fourqaan Islamic Center, the organization that operates the school, was investigated on suspicion of taking part in the recruiting network after two young Eindhoven men who had attended the mosque were killed in Kashmir, the territory contested by India and Pakistan.

Subsequent reports said two of the hijackers in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, once attended a conference at the mosque, a charge that leaders of the mosque deny.

"It's ludicrous," said Saeed Muhammad, spokesman for the mosque, complaining that accusations in the news media take on a life of their own. He called the bombing on Monday "an act of terror against Muslims and kids at the same time" and decried a double standard that taints all Muslims for acts carried out by individuals like Mr. van Gogh's killer.

Mr. Sakkers, the mayor, said the investigation of the mosque had found no wrongdoing and insisted that the city did not deserve its reputation as an extremist hotbed. "There are no groups of extremists here," he said.

City officials said late Monday that investigators had yet to determine the kind of explosive used or the identity of the attackers. They ordered round-the-clock police protection of the school and the city's five main mosques.

Care to post the article so I don't have to login.

As to terrorisng? Well there are two sides to the coin.

We have a guy from Belgium and he says that depending on where you live, you take your life in your hands if you say anything remotely bad about Islam. Woman are getting hastled for not having the heads covered....

A couple Dutch ministers went into hiding because of Death threats from the "oppressed."

Don't forget the recent murder of Theo Van Gogh......

So? I feel bad for Van Gogh, but I doubt his murderers went to an elementary school.

SIGHS

Going after kids is wrong no matter what.

But I would hardly call this the hypocracy of the EU.

We have extreamists also.....

here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/international/europe/09dutch.html)

Despite what is claimed on this board, it seems not everyone in Europe is as enlightened as they claim. I guess their media is, in fact, as biased as fox news after all.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.


Again a anti EU post of DeaconDave. Guess he likes to forget the way muslims were trown in jail by thousands in the US after 9/11 without having the right to see a lawyer. Hundreds are still in jail...witouth charge, lawyer aso...

He also forgets the anti muslim rascist pogroms we saw in 2001/2002, the burning gas stations, houses that were property of muslims.

And, before I forget, those 14 year old kids and all those other muslims must like the US and go back home to tell how good the US is and how bad EU is towards muslims.

Scientia vincera tenebras.

But you are really on the tenebras side.

We have a guy from Belgium and he says that depending on where you live, you take your life in your hands if you say anything remotely bad about Islam. Woman are getting hastled for not having the heads covered....
You have the same thing if you venture into the wrong parts of Utrecht, Rotterdam, Amsterdam or The Hague. But eventhough this has been known for years the government chose to ignore it and make a big fuzz about how wonderfull the multi cultural society is instead. And when an Imam preached to throw gays off of buildings it was called freedom of religion. I'd like to see if a christian preacher/priest would have getting away with that. Man, those poor opressed muslims.

So? I feel bad for Van Gogh, but I doubt his murderers went to an elementary school.

We can't answer that.

The "freedom fighters" in Iraq took out a bunch of children in that suicide attack a month or so ago.....

He also forgets the anti muslim rascist pogroms we saw in 2001/2002, the burning gas stations, houses that were property of muslims.



What pogroms. Source.

So? I feel bad for Van Gogh, but I doubt his murderers went to an elementary school.
Oh realy? Hows that?

Again a anti EU post of DeaconDave. Guess he likes to forget the way muslims were trown in jail by thousands in the US after 9/11 without having the right to see a lawyer. Hundreds are still in jail...witouth charge, lawyer aso...

He also forgets the anti muslim rascist pogroms we saw in 2001/2002, the burning gas stations, houses that were property of muslims.

And, before I forget, those 14 year old kids and all those other muslims must like the US and go back home to tell how good the US is and how bad EU is towards muslims.

Scientia vincera tenebras.

But you are really on the tenebras side.

America's shoddy track record does not diminish the point he is making here.

You have the same thing if you venture into the wrong parts of Utrecht, Rotterdam, Amsterdam or The Hague. .


But lucky enough, you don't have De Winter and Vlaams Blok. Those make the debate impossible.

America's shoddy track record does not diminish the point he is making here.
Which is?

SIGHS

Going after kids is wrong no matter what.

But I would hardly call this the hypocracy of the EU.

We have extreamists also.....

Well considering Europeans act like it is only the US that has any anti-muslim sentiment among its population, I do find this hypocritical.

America's shoddy track record does not diminish the point he is making here.

Did not see any.

Which is?

That hate happens everywhere. Europeans aren't more or less tolerant than Americans.

But lucky enough, you don't have De Winter and Vlaams Blok. Those make the debate impossible.
Love them or hate them. But they have some valid points. And the governments have been closing their eyes to the dangers for years.

That hate happens everywhere. Europeans aren't more or less tolerant than Americans.
I somehow doubt that was his point.

"Dutch people terrorise muslims" is way out of line for everybody that knows the country.

You have the same thing if you venture into the wrong parts of Utrecht, Rotterdam, Amsterdam or The Hague. But eventhough this has been known for years the government chose to ignore it and make a big fuzz about how wonderfull the multi cultural society is instead. And when an Imam preached to throw gays off of buildings it was called freedom of religion. I'd like to see if a christian preacher/priest would have getting away with that. Man, those poor opressed muslims.

Man oh man.

Sometimes I think it's time to find a nice island someplace.

Multicultural societies can work when everybody "learns" there are a set a rules that everybody must follow.

The Imam should be cooling his ass in a cell for that.

Actually, over here the authorities usually frown when ministers say "Go out and kill people....."

I somehow doubt that was his point.

Yeah, well it did have a tinge of hatred towards the EU, but that's the overall point that I get, that Europeans are not somehow better than Americans because they are more tolerant.

Love them or hate them. But they have some valid points. And the governments have been closing their eyes to the dangers for years.

Can't agree more but it is really impossible talking with them. They only agree when you say that it rains or when you say that the sun is shining.

Hmm, we'll see after tomorrow with the end of the trial if they will winn.
I guess that they'll reform till a Vlaams Blok Light (but with the same leaders :rolleyes: )

Can't agree more but it is really impossible talking with them. They only agree when you say that it rains or when you say that the sun is shining.

Hmm, we'll see after tomorrow with the end of the trial if they will winn.
I guess that they'll reform till a Vlaams Blok Light (but with the same leaders :rolleyes: )
Didn't the VB get some 20% during the last elections?

So? I feel bad for Van Gogh, but I doubt his murderers went to an elementary school.
Oh realy? Hows that?

"Dutch people terrorise muslims" is way out of line for everybody that knows the country.

Were the people terrorizing not Dutch?

Is the New York Times now lying?

Did you, yourself, not just accuse Americans - falaciously, I suggest - of conducting anti-muslim pogroms?

And I do not "hate" europeans. I am just tired of ones who assume that the only racial intolerance left in the world is in th US.

We may have elected GW, but last I checked it is EU nations that have serving politicians from nationalist/white supremecist parties.

Is the New York Times now lying?.

I don't pay for the NYT on internet so like the other posters, we don't know if you tell the truth. BTW, as a good paper, the NYT has extreme right (republican), centre right (Dems) and some rare centre journalists.

But really, I know Holland, just been there in a week ago and I did not see US like pogroms like after 9/11 or the massive razzias on muslims like in the US.
Don't forget that Holland is not as rogue as some parts in the US.

But really, I know Holland, just been there in a week ago and I did not see US like pogroms like after 9/11 or the massive razzias on muslims like in the US.
Don't forget that Holland is not as rogue as some parts in the US.

Again, what pogroms?

Source - ?

Were the people terrorizing not Dutch?
And I do not "hate" europeans. .

.

Hmm, like Hitler did not hate the jews :rolleyes: , 90% of your posts are pure attacks on EU, full of assumptions and half truths.

Again, what pogroms?

Source - ?


Comme on, never heared of Gitmo?, never saw the US muslims wich gas stations were burning, be serious, you can't have this censurship in the press :rolleyes: Never heared of the amnesty reports?

Holland must be a muslims heaven regarding the US.

Hmm, like Hitler did not hate the jews :rolleyes: , 90% of your posts are pure attacks on EU, full of assumptions and half truths.


No they are not.

Whereas, all of your posts are blatantly anti-US.

When do I go around attacking the EU all the time. Sometimes I criticize it, but has it got to the point that no EU citizen can bear to hear honest criticism.

And what source do you have for your accusation of "pogroms" occuring in the US.

Or is that all just stupid lies.

Comme on, never heared of Gitmo?, never saw the US muslims wich gas stations were burning, be serious, you can't have this censurship in the press :rolleyes: Never heared of the amnesty reports?

Holland must be a muslims heaven regarding the US.

Have I heard of GITMO, yes. But that is not a pogrom.

As to the burning gas stations, no. I don't remember that. And I live within twenty miles of ground zero.

Also most of the people in GITMO were captured in afganistan.

No-one went around blowing up elementary schools. You are making all of this up because you are a European racist.

Whereas, all of your posts are blatantly anti-US.



Proof?

Critisizing a wrong government is something else then not hating a country like you do (a problem for CRWN that like to forget the difference, like in hating Nazi Germany (or Bush, Pinochet, aso..) but not hating the country.
Most people that don't understand the difference are a bit limited in their views.

Proof?

Critisizing a wrong government is something else then not hating a country like you do (a problem for CRWN that like to forget the difference, like in hating Nazi Germany (or Bush, Pinochet, aso..) but not hating the country.
Most people that don't understand the difference are a bit limited in their views.

What the fuck is CRWN?

Have I heard of GITMO, yes. But that is not a pogrom.

As to the burning gas stations, no. I don't remember that. And I live within twenty miles of ground zero.

Also most of the people in GITMO were captured in afganistan.

No-one went around blowing up elementary schools. You are making all of this up because you are a European racist.

Watch out who you call a rascist, you can do that once, not twice, OK?

Those gas stations where not burned in NYC, but in the South. And capturing 14 year old and lots of innocents in Afghanistan is not a excuse, certainly the way they are kept appart of any lawyers and the way all (even those released Brits) released prisonars speak about phisical and mentaly torture and sexual abuse.

What the fuck is CRWN?

Christian Right Wing Nut, found this great word on NS but I heared that it is winning the hearts and minds of the real Americans when they speak about the crazy guys in the red states.

Watch out who you call a rascist, you can do that once, not twice, OK?

Those gas stations where not burned in NYC, but in the South. And capturing 14 year old and lots of innocents in Afghanistan is not a excuse, certainly the way they are kept appart of any lawyers and the way all (even those released Brits) released prisonars speak about phisical and mentaly torture and sexual abuse.

Oh, only you can call people racist, I get it.

And again, give me a source for the burning gas stations. I think you have just seized upon an urban legend.

And again what about the "pogroms" you were talking about. You've never been to the US, have you, so you base your impression of it solely from a biased media.

As to GITMO, there are lawsuits pending. It there was indeed torture, people will be punished. Just like abu gharib.

Again a anti EU post of DeaconDave. Guess he likes to forget the way muslims were trown in jail by thousands in the US after 9/11 without having the right to see a lawyer. Hundreds are still in jail...witouth charge, lawyer aso...



How was that an anti EU post? Or even an anti muslim post?

How was that an anti EU post? Or even an anti muslim post?

He cannot stand the thought that EU != perfect. Therefore anyone who mentions it must hate the EU.

Christian Right Wing Nut, found this great word on NS but I heared that it is winning the hearts and minds of the real Americans when they speak about the crazy guys in the red states.

I'd rather be CRWN than a RDMF

Oh, only you can call people racist, I get it.

And again, give me a source for the burning gas stations. I think you have just seized upon an urban legend.

And again what about the "pogroms" you were talking about. You've never been to the US, have you, so you base your impression of it solely from a biased media.

As to GITMO, there are lawsuits pending. It there was indeed torture, people will be punished. Just like abu gharib.


I utterly condemn the torture that took place at Abu Ghraib but I do think it ironic that whilst Muslims worldwide were up in arms over the atrocities I doubt there is a single Arab nation where torture does not feature prominently in their prisons.

Slightly off topic I know.

But lucky enough, you don't have De Winter and Vlaams Blok. Those make the debate impossible.
No, but we have Wilders & Hirshi Ali to do the job for them. AFAICS, we don't have an equivalent of Abu Jaja...(yet?)

BTW, latest news:
Arson in Utrecht (that's the Netherlands) church.

Tonight, unknowns have set fire to a church in the Utrecht neighbourhood of Kanaleneiland (a 'hood with a lot of muslim people). Policemen put out the fire in an early stage. The perpetrators smashed a window, and threw flammable materials into the church.

No, but we have Wilders & Hirshi Ali to do the job for them. AFAICS, we don't have an equivalent of Abu Jaja...(yet?)

BTW, latest news:
Arson in Utrecht (that's the Netherlands) church.

Tonight, unknowns have set fire to a church in the Utrecht neighbourhood of Kanaleneiland (a 'hood with a lot of muslim people). Policemen put out the fire in an early stage. The perpetrators smashed a window, and threw flammable materials into the church.

Do you have an article. Is this a reprisal.

Do you have an article. Is this a reprisal.
Only in Dutch. {URL deleted} This happened only a few hours ago. There may be English articles available tomorrow.

Only in Dutch. http://teletekst.nos.nl/gif/103-01.html?navi=103&submit=gaan This happened only a few hours ago. There may be English articles available tomorrow.

Teletext. LOL.

I'd forgotten that even existed.

No, but we have Wilders & Hirshi Ali to do the job for them. AFAICS, we don't have an equivalent of Abu Jaja...(yet?)
Oh come on. Are you serious? Your comparing Wilders and Hirsi Ali with the VB and De Winter? Get real. And the AEL is a registered party here as well if I'm not mistaking. So we have that hatemonger Abu BlaBla as well.

Wow, finally my town (Eindhoven) is in the news on NS. Unfortunately with some hatecrimes :(

Stupid muslim extremists, stupid schoolbombers...

Bad, bad Dutch.. they are not perfect. But they truly strive to improve themselves, and to improve tolerance in their country. And since the dutch society is one of the most open and tolerant in the world (now, and in the past), calling them "racists" is a bit of an exageration.

BTW, yes, there is racism and hatred in stupidity in Europe also. But we try to end that, and the majority of us does not allow such ideas to spread, we fight them.

here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/international/europe/09dutch.html)

Despite what is claimed on this board, it seems not everyone in Europe is as enlightened as they claim. I guess their media is, in fact, as biased as fox news after all.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.

{B]Dutch Muslim School Bombed; Link to Killing Suspected
By CRAIG S. SMITH[/B]

Published: November 9, 2004
...
Before you slag off a well-respected international News organisation to further support your right-wing opinions, it's best to check with their web-site first.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3994141.stm
Last Updated: Monday, 8 November, 2004, 21:09 GMT

Dutch step up Muslim protection

Eindhoven's mayor condemned the school bombers as "cowardly"
Police patrols are to be stepped up in a Netherlands city where tensions are high after a bomb at an Islamic school.
Notice the bolded line at the top? Last updated yesterday. a day before your article came out.

Wow, finally my town (Eindhoven) is in the news on NS. Unfortunately with some hatecrimes :(
I felt like that a few years when my home town finally made it into international news, but it was some guys beating up Santa at the Xmas parade. Major :(

The fact that the bomb went off before dawn and noone was injured I think shows that the bomb planters didn't actually intend to harm anyone - just more like some kind of twisted warning for the Muslim community.

Despite what is claimed on this board, it seems not everyone in Europe is as enlightened as they claim. I guess their media is, in fact, as biased as fox news after all.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.


This report is dated the 9th, today.
The BBC reported it yesterday (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3994141.stm), the 8th. What aspect of the BBC report was biased?

This may seem off-topic, but do we know that the murderer of the filmmaker was an Arab Muslim?

Or is everyone just assuming that?

Never mind, I found the article saying the suspects are all Moroccans, and the knife with the Koran note, etc.

Still, if I wanted to stir up trouble for the local Islamic community, this is how I would go about it. Egads, I seem to be in conspiracy theory mode today.

Wow, finally my town (Eindhoven) is in the news on NS. Unfortunately with some hatecrimes :(

Stupid muslim extremists, stupid schoolbombers...

I think the best way to promote democracy and tolerance in the Netherlands would be for the US to invade and put all muslims and dutch people in prison. That would stop the hate crimes immediately.

This may seem off-topic, but do we know that the murderer of the filmmaker was an Arab Muslim?

Or is everyone just assuming that?

"Several men, all believed to be Islamic radicals, have been arrested in connection with his death." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3994539.stm)

Of course we are assuming that they are guilty. If they'd been arrested for terrorist offences in the UK, I'd be assuming they were innocent.

Were the people terrorizing not Dutch?

Bad, bad Dutch.. they are not perfect

What did we do? Just as our society was unable to prevent the killing of van Gogh, we where unable to prevent the attack on the muslim school. Does that make us a terrorist society? (referring to the title of this thread). It's so easy to make a molotov coktail and throw it at a building, or pick up a gun and pull the trigger. With our best efforts, we can never prevent every attack from happening. Only when the dutch people support such an attack it would be disturbing news.

The murder of van Gogh sparked a debate in holland about the kind of freedoms a religion should have. It's my personal opinion that every religion is dangerous in some way (because it's unrational), and needs a degree of control.

I think the best way to promote democracy and tolerance in the Netherlands would be for the US to invade and put all muslims and dutch people in prison. That would stop the hate crimes immediately.


Yup, all hatecrimes between muslims and dutch would stop... We would concentrate all our agression on the Americans then ;)

This may seem off-topic, but do we know that the murderer of the filmmaker was an Arab Muslim?

Or is everyone just assuming that?
From what I remember reading at the time, the Police caught him soon after the killing. He's a Moroccan with dual Morrocan/Dutch citizenship. There was a shoo-out with the Police in which a cop and the (alleged) killer got injured.

Found it on BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3974179.stm
Here's their follow-up:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3978787.stm

"Several men, all believed to be Islamic radicals, have been arrested in connection with his death." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3994539.stm)

Of course we are assuming that they are guilty. If they'd been arrested for terrorist offences in the UK, I'd be assuming they were innocent.

Yeah, that was the article I found and read while you were posting. Tanks anyways for the info. I guess I'm still waking up.

I didn't think the Netherlands had such a multicultural society, but I guess my viewpoint is a wee bit tainted growing up in large Canadian cities. In my elementary school in Toronto, we had Poles, Chileans, Greeks, Africans (don't remember the country, I was seven), Caribbeans, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Scots, Native Americans, Pakistani, Germans, Jews, Asians of all sorts...and that was just the folks I remember from my class.

"Several men, all believed to be Islamic radicals, have been arrested in connection with his death." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3994539.stm)

Of course we are assuming that they are guilty. If they'd been arrested for terrorist offences in the UK, I'd be assuming they were innocent.
Just because they are being held without trial and unable to see a lawyer (let alone the charges or evidence, they are far too sensitive). Doesn't mean the Home Office is paranoid

Just because they are being held without trial and unable to see a lawyer (let alone the charges or evidence, they are far too sensitive). Doesn't mean the Home Office is paranoid
What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?
British anti-terror laws

British anti-terror laws

There are 2 ideas going on here, the factual one about people being held for the murder of Theo Van Gogh in holland, and a theoretical one about putative islamic extremists being held in the UK.

About multiculturalism, big cities in most of Europe, at least old europe, have multi-ethnic populations.

British anti-terror laws
Ah, alright.

Ok here we go. I am Dutch and I find it insulting that we are called terrorists. I've been all over the world and was present when Sri Lanka's presidential rally was bombed by Tamil Tigers in the late 90's.

First off all, just reading and posting one article in a thread doesn't mean that what it says in the article is true. In fact, the article doesn't give all the facts.

As you all know, Holland has an international reputation of being extremely tolerant of other people's cultures. However, this is far from the case. But this does not mean that we terrorize Muslims. Hell, After 9/11, Bush, much like our Prime Minister, had to tell people to stop terrorizing Muslims and Arabs living in America.

We dream of a tolerant society in Holland where everyone can do as they please, but we have the collective feeling that this is a failed venture. Now, because of the assassination of Theo van Gogh, we feel like our right to free speech is being threatened. van Gogh had just put out a movie called "Submission" which was based on a script from a Muslim member of the Dutch parliament, bringing to light the Qu'ran's condoning of domestic violence. True, Theo was an offensive critic of Islam, but to kill him for his views? That wouldn't fly in any civilized country.

The western world holds the tenet of free speech extremely dear, no matter how extreme the view. The KKK still exists and is allowed to say what they want, even though the message isn't heard by everyone, it's still there. So just because some dumbass decides to bomb a school doesn't mean that the entire society is against them, otherwise Americans would top the list of Anti-Muslim and Arab nations. The US had armed conflict with 2 of them in the last 4 years, and acts of violence have been recorded against them even though those individuals were innocent.

Every country has it's bad apples, but that doesn't mean the whole country is rotten, so next time you feel like posting something like this, don't, because this has been an extremely narrow view of things as they have happened. Pim Fortuyn's murder and Theo van Gogh's have nothing in common. The former was killed by a Dutch animal rights activist and the latter by a 26 year old Muslim, who had ties to a Muslim extremist sect that Dutch Intelligence had been watching. What you guys might also not know is that Theo van Gogh had an entire clip of ammunition emptied into him, then he was knifed as he lay dying and then a note was left stabbed into his body. Wouldn't that piss you off if it was Steven Spielberg?

The article is on The Economist website.

Theo van Gogh had an entire clip of ammunition emptied into him, then he was knifed as he lay dying and then a note was left stabbed into his body. Wouldn't that piss you off if it was Steven Spielberg?
2 knives.

2 knives.

That's kind of a moot point though, isn't it? That's no way for someone to die.

That's kind of a moot point though, isn't it? That's no way for someone to die.
No. It shows the coldbloodedness of his murderer. And that it was not a momentary reaction but a planned assasination. Attached to one of the knives there were death threads against Geert Wilders and Hirsi Ali.

I didn't know that, thank you :)

I didn't know that, thank you :)
No problem. You can check FOK.nl for updates on this case.
Also probably related: http://frontpage.fok.nl/nieuws/48117

Also, what happens if you loose your ID card?
You put in a request for a new one. Where did this came from?

Wrong thread. :(

America's shoddy track record does not diminish the point he is making here.
Yes it does becuase he say:
1. Europeans here have claimed that ALL citizens in EU countries are tolerant.
2. That isn't the case.
3. You are stupid if you believe that here are any communities without extremists, and if it isn't extremistic to bomb a school then tell us what is...

Well considering Europeans act like it is only the US that has any anti-muslim sentiment among its population, I do find this hypocritical.
You may found it hypocritical I don't as we complain about the US government and the party THE MAJORITY (at least of the states) HAS CHOSEN! we do NOT talk about NON-PARLAMENTARICAL extremists.

here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/international/europe/09dutch.html)

Despite what is claimed on this board, it seems not everyone in Europe is as enlightened as they claim. I guess their media is, in fact, as biased as fox news after all.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.

Who ever said that all Europeans were enlightened. We certainly have our fair share of bigots.

Who ever said that all Europeans were enlightened.
Actually the Americans do. In their attempts to throw it in our faces. :D

Yeah, well it did have a tinge of hatred towards the EU, but that's the overall point that I get, that Europeans are not somehow better than Americans because they are more tolerant.
Ha! So you admit we're more tolerant!

Ha! So you admit we're more tolerant!


Well the main point of this thread is to show that the USA-nians won't tolerate our tolerance...?

as i posted before (noone seems to read older posts..) i really don't see what the fuss is all about, this could happen in any country. it's impossible to prevent lunatics from grabbing weapons, so you can't blame us for it.

I guess their media is, in fact, as biased as fox news after all.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.
As I heard about this DAYS ago it seems that the US media either is very anti-islamic or that you react rather slowly.

Never mind, I'm sure the BBC will get round to reporting it eventually.

Actually, Newsnight did a report two years ago on the treatment of ethnic minorities by the Dutch authorities.

Get that chip off your shoulder. Dick!

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1345388,00.html


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3586543.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1991022.stm

Yet another thread that has fallen into the Europeans/Americans are better. The last time I checked there is no biological differences, and the cultural differences are small and shrinking quickly.

How about we all just agree that there is really no difference between the two groups other than what the governments assign, and its not like either side really does much to control government.

"Dutch People" Terrorize? Yes, the entire Dutch population conspired to attack that school :rolleyes:

A small group of extreme Right wingers attack them, not representitive of the entire population. There are temsions in Holland, yes. There are tensions everywhere in Europe right now, there are tensions all over the globe. Unfortunatly the political will is not there on either side of the Atlantic to deal with the reasons behind the tensions and problems, instead they deal with the symptons, not the disease.

Actually, Newsnight did a report two years ago on the treatment of ethnic minorities by the Dutch authorities.

Get that chip off your shoulder. Dick!


So did fox news.

And Jeremy Paxman sucks.

A small group of extreme Right wingers attack them
Actually it's still unknown who it was.

So? I feel bad for Van Gogh, but I doubt his murderers went to an elementary school.
Oh realy? Hows that?

Oh realy? Hows that?

Why do I doubt it?

Or why do I feel bad for him?

Why do I doubt it?

Or why do I feel bad for him?
Why you doubt it.

Why you doubt it.

Becuase, from the reports I have read, his assailant was a 26 year old man, and therefore probably did not attend elementary school.

Hypocricy...

First, they kill Theo van Gogh...then someone decided to do something in return, and all of a sudden, we are the bad guys? The killer should have seen it coming...every action triggers a reaction, and some people decided that the famous Dutch tolerance has been strained too much.
I'm one of them, harsher action against fundamentalists and extremists( Be they muslim,christian or whatever) is needed.

Becuase, from the reports I have read, his assailant was a 26 year old man, and therefore probably did not attend elementary school.
And how did you come to that conclusion? Cause that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Hypocricy...

First, they kill Theo van Gogh...then someone decided to do something in return, and all of a sudden, we are the bad guys? The killer should have seen it coming...every action triggers a reaction, and some people decided that the famous Dutch tolerance has been strained too much.
I'm one of them, harsher action against fundamentalists and extremists( Be they muslim,christian or whatever) is needed.
Switch to RTL4. They are discussing this among other things at Barend & Van Dorp.

And how did you come to that conclusion? Cause that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Well who does bombing an empty elementary school hurt?

The students mostly.

Such racial expressions are outlawed in The Empire of Presidency. Those engageing in said activities are executed on site.

Well who does bombing an empty elementary school hurt?

The students mostly.
What the hell has that to do with your statement, that the murderer of Van Gogh beeing a 26 year old man, so he probably didn't attend elementary school? :confused:

What the hell has that to do with your statement, that the murderer of Van Gogh beeing a 26 year old man, so he probably didn't attend elementary school? :confused:


Oh I get it, I think we have a translation problem.

For me, elementary school = students 5-12 years old. approx.

I assume it is different in the Netherlands.

Oh I get it, I think we have a translation problem.

For me, elementary school = students 5-12 years old. approx.

I assume it is different in the Netherlands.
No. It's the same age range here. I don't understand why you doubt a 26 year old murderer probably didn't attent elementary school according to you.

No. It's the same age range here. I don't understand why you doubt a 26 year old murderer probably didn't attent elementary school according to you.

I don't see what you are getting at.

I don't see what you are getting at.
You said Mohammed B, the 26 year old suspect in the murder of Van Gogh, probably didn't attend elementary school. And I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion.

You said Mohammed B, the 26 year old suspect in the murder of Van Gogh, probably didn't attend elementary school. And I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion.


I meant: was not currently and has not in any recent time attended elementary school; not, has never attended elementary school.

I meant: was not currently and has not in any recent time attended elementary school; not, has never attended elementary school.
Alright. And what does that have to do with anything?

Alright. And what does that have to do with anything?

Well why blow it up. What does it have to do with his murderers.

I don't pay for the NYT on internet so like the other posters, we don't know if you tell the truth. BTW, as a good paper, the NYT has extreme right (republican), centre right (Dems) and some rare centre journalists.

But really, I know Holland, just been there in a week ago and I did not see US like pogroms like after 9/11 or the massive razzias on muslims like in the US.
Don't forget that Holland is not as rogue as some parts in the US.
I don't pay for the NYT online, it is free. To say the NYT has an extreme right pov is inaccurate. Either you are posing or are completely off the scale left.

I utterly condemn the torture that took place at Abu Ghraib but I do think it ironic that whilst Muslims worldwide were up in arms over the atrocities I doubt there is a single Arab nation where torture does not feature prominently in their prisons.

Slightly off topic I know.
An excellent point, but not a justification for Americans to behave that way. By allowing this behavior they handed thier opposition a media victory. I would say off with their heads but I am not an adherant of that aspect of Islamic justice.