NationStates Jolt Archive

All right, I'm finally breaking down on this one. I've actually read the Bible a lot; more than many people I would say. But I tend to skip around a lot.
So can someone kindly point me to the book, (chaper and verse) that talks about the fall of Lucifer and all that? The whole heirarchy of angels and all? Thanks.

All right, I'm finally breaking down on this one. I've actually read the Bible a lot; more than many people I would say. But I tend to skip around a lot.
So can someone kindly point me to the book, (chaper and verse) that talks about the fall of Lucifer and all that? The whole heirarchy of angels and all? Thanks.

Somewhere in Isaiah, I think.

I am not religious, and not very knowledgable about the bible, but "Lucifer", the name of one of the archangels, also means "light-bearer" and is associated with the morning star. Some people theorize that the archangel Lucifer never fell, but that the passage that describes the fall instead is referring to a falling star. That's just a theory I've heard. I personally don't know much about it, but it seemed like it might be relevant to the topic.

I can give you the Jewish view if you like, but I don't think it's what you're looking for. In Judaism Satan isn't the Devil and he neve falls from heaven (Although he still isn't a very nice guy)

All right, I'm finally breaking down on this one. I've actually read the Bible a lot; more than many people I would say. But I tend to skip around a lot.
So can someone kindly point me to the book, (chaper and verse) that talks about the fall of Lucifer and all that? The whole heirarchy of angels and all? Thanks.
Revelation, off the top of my head...
I left my Bible at school, so I'll get back with more soon as I can...

14:1
For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
14:2
And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
14:3
And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
14:4
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
14:5
The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
14:6
He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
14:7
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
14:8
Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
14:9
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
14:10
All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
14:11
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
14:16
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
14:17
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
14:18
All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
14:19
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
14:20
Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
14:21
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
14:22
For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
14:23
I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.
14:24
The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
14:25
That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
14:26
This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
14:27
For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
14:28
In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
14:29
Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
14:30
And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
14:31
Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
14:32
What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.

there you go.

I am not religious, and not very knowledgable about the bible, but "Lucifer", the name of one of the archangels, also means "light-bearer" and is associated with the morning star. Some people theorize that the archangel Lucifer never fell, but that the passage that describes the fall instead is referring to a falling star. That's just a theory I've heard. I personally don't know much about it, but it seemed like it might be relevant to the topic.


Satanic Bible
The book of Lucifer, Chapter 1

The Roman god, Lucifer, was the bearer of light, the spirit of the air, the personification of enlightenment. In Christian mythology he became synonymous with evil, which was only to have been expected from a religion whose very existence is perpetuated by clouded definitions and bogus values! It is time to set the record straight. False moralisms and occult inaccuracies must be corrected. Entertaining as they might be, most stories and plays about Devil worship must be recognized as the obsolete absurdities they are.

It has been said "the truth will make men free". The truth alone has never set anyone free. It is only DOUBT which will bring mental emancipation. Without the wonderful element of doubt, the doorway through which truth passes would be tightly shut, impervious to the most strenuous poundings of a thousand Lucifers. How understandable that Holy Scripture should refer to the Infernal monarch as the "father of lies" - a magnificent example of character inversion. If one is to believe this theological accusation that the Devil represents falsehood, then it surely must be concurred that it was HE, NOT GOD, THAT ESTABLISHED ALL SPIRITUAL RELIGIONS AND WHO WROTE ALL OF THE HOLY BIBLES!

When one doubt is followed by another, the bubble, grown large from long accumulated fallacies, threatens to burst. For those who already doubt supposed truths, this book is revelation. Then Lucifer will have risen. Now is the time for doubt! The bubble of falsehood is bursting and its sound is the roar of the world!


Needless to say, Anton Lavey is arguably the father of modern Satanism, hence the somewhat emphatic and satirical tone of the above text.

My own opinion on where Satan came from, is that every good story needs a bad guy, and the Christian bible is no exception.

there you go.
That refers to Lucifer as a title for a king, not Lucifer the name. It's analagous yes, but it doesn't refer to ol' Satan.

This well read athiest believes it has to do with the War in Heaven.
Where Lucifer falls and everything.

Thanks for your response, I'm aware of many of the esoteric theories involving Lucifer, but I'm seeking the specifically the BIBLICAL references to the fall. I mean really, If most of the globe's population is going to blame all the bad things in the world on the entity, you would think that we'd know a lot about him from BEFORE the gospels, Revelations, etc...
The problems are ultimately the fault of the Anti-Christ and man's sinful nature. Lucifer is just an antagonist, not so much the driving force of evil.

This may be a little off topic.
The Bible is very vague on most subjects, especially Lucifer/Beelzebub/The Devil/Satan/The Dark Prince/The Fallen Angel/other names for untalented gothic metal bands. Varying interpretations on the bible had a lot to do with the formation of modern day politics.

I do believe the name Lucifer is never literally given to Satan. Rather, it's used in one of the books as the name of a king who was being compared to Satan.

All it takes from there is one mis-translation or easy jump...

...which really sucks, because Lucifer is a rather beautiful name.




Random act of confusion: I'd have to look it up, but I beleive Jesus is called the morning start at one point. Does this mean christians worship their great enemy? xD

I am not religious, and not very knowledgable about the bible, but "Lucifer", the name of one of the archangels, also means "light-bearer" and is associated with the morning star. Some people theorize that the archangel Lucifer never fell, but that the passage that describes the fall instead is referring to a falling star. That's just a theory I've heard. I personally don't know much about it, but it seemed like it might be relevant to the topic.
Thanks for your response, I'm aware of many of the esoteric theories involving Lucifer, but I'm seeking the specifically the BIBLICAL references to the fall. I mean really, If most of the globe's population is going to blame all the bad things in the world on the entity, you would think that we'd know a lot about him from BEFORE the gospels, Revelations, etc...
14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Thanks, it's funny though, MY version of the Bible does not mention "Lucifer" by name. Funny. You must have the KJV? I do not. Very funny.

And where do we hear about the incubus(spirits, not the band) and succubus?

I can give you the Jewish view if you like, but I don't think it's what you're looking for.
I'll take it. I'm not faring well in other arenas. There has to be something more beyond what the pagan traditions have to say.
While you're at it, since I'm assuming you'll know, what is the Talmud? History? (I'd recently only ever heard of the Torah).

...which really sucks, because Lucifer is a rather beautiful name.

xD


Satan and Lucifer are never called the same person in the Bible. Christian theology, in order to make it all more easily understoood, have attributed every "evil" character or entity to Satan... names like Lucifer (a condemned king), Abbadon (literally "destruction" in Hebrew), the Serpent (of Adam and Eve fame), Wormwood (the "falling star" from Revelation, sometimes equated with the Anti-Christ), Beelzebub (a demon), Appolyon (the destroyer, name coming from Abbadon), Azazel (another demon), and others. All of those are fantastic names, but I agree with Goed that Lucifer is a beautiful name. I think that more people should name their children Lucifer.

You'll have to find theological books. Or books which were cut from the final version of the Bible.

The Bible itself rarely mentions the origins of Satan and I doubt if it ever mentions specific demons like incubii and sucubii.

Random act of confusion: I'd have to look it up, but I beleive Jesus is called the morning start at one point. Does this mean christians worship their great enemy? xD

The only occurences of the string "morning star" in the KJB, using a case-insensitive search, are in the books of Job and Revelations. Electronic copies of the King James bible rock when you're debating and discussing theology.


38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, 38:11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.



2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

...

22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


E-text version of the KJB courtesy of the Project Gutenberg archives.
http://www.gutenberg.net

Well, in Judaism Satan is a servant of God, no different from the other Angels except that he is of extremely high rank and he's evil. Well, not really evil, just not very nice.

From what I gather from the many stories (Book of Job, and many others that I remember in great detail but whose actual names I forget) it seems that Satans job was to test humans. To see if they truly are loyal to God or if they just act that way, and if they'll stay loyal no matter what. Further reading shows that he really just uses that as an excuse to play dirty tricks.

The Book of Job, that I just mentioned, has Satan say to God "Yes, Job is a good and righteous man, but look at how you have favored him! He has money and wealth and power, take it away and he'd spit on your name!"

Another story (Damnit, I can't remember the name!) has Satan say pretty much the exact opposite "Yes, that man is a humble and good man, but it is simply because he has never known the temptation of wealth and power. Give him good things and see how long it takes for him to stop praying constantly."

He never Falls from Heaven, he isn't the source of all evil, and to be be perfectly frank he isn't that important. He's like a petulant child, playing tricks on people and trying to get his way, but over all his doesn't really influence very much.

I hope that helps in some very tiny way

And where do we hear about the incubus(spirits, not the band) and succubus?
As far as remember, no one really knows for sure. The have been identified with the daughters of the Greek goddess Hecate (who's name escape for the moment), who used to pray apon men and suck their vital fluids dry.Other theories I have heard is that they were explanations for dreams/nightmares that resulted in repressing the sexual drive, also Lilith (the first woman) has also been identified.

As an aside, incubus [the male demon] comes from the Latin veb incubare, "to lie above" and succubus [female] comes from succubare "to lie below."

Unfortunately, most of my books on the Occult aren't with me so that is the best I can do.

Also, you may be interested in this (http://www.gutenberg.net/dirs/1/2/5/8/12586/12586-h/12586-h.htm) book. Also from Project Gutenberg (don't you just love the public domain).

Its been a while, but what I remember from my Catholic C.C.D. days, Lucifer was God's most beautiful and perfect Angel/Creation. Long story short, he got arrogant, and thought he was as good/better then God. He started an uprising in heaven. God deposed him, and sent him and all his followers to Hell. That was known as The Fall. Lucifer and his minions now rule Hell.

The problems are ultimately the fault of the Anti-Christ and man's sinful nature. Lucifer is just an antagonist, not so much the driving force of evil.

anti-christ? is it the chimp? (Dubya bush) <jk. i'm a christian, but i haven't heard much about the anti-christ. but yah if i steal a purse it is my fault (tho some physocogists would say it is my parents) not the devil. it means i am a crappy person, not that some being willed me to steal that purse.

While you're at it, since I'm assuming you'll know, what is the Talmud? History? (I'd recently only ever heard of the Torah).

The Talmud is, essentially, an explanation of the Torah. How to interpret the various teachings of the Torah, what obscure passages mean, how the teachings of the Torahs apply to the laws of the land, etc. The reason it's not simply part of the Torah is that it was originally a spoken thing. An oral tradition, taught to Moses by God and then passed down by word of mouth to his descendants. It wasn't written down until around 200 A.D. (Way after the Torah was written).

The Talmud is in two parts, the Mishnah (what I just described) and the Gemara. The Gemara is like an expantion of the Mishnah, explaining the explanation. A more in-depth view of the Torah to further help you understand Gods teachings. The Gemara was completed and added to the Mishnah around 500 A.D. which is when the Talmud was 'completed'

And where do we hear about the incubus(spirits, not the band) and succubus?

This is a bit of information from Encyclopedia Brittanica, but it's not going to help you much. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9042259&query=Incubus&ct=

Actually, there is no mention of either incubi or succubi in the Bible. Never even is there mention of them in the Apocrypha. Rather, they seem to have arisen out of the Middle Ages as legends and rumours that were later to become part of demonology. The Malleus Maleficarum, published sometime in the fifteenth century, is a large part of Catholic text, and it seems to be widely-accepted as the expert text on witchcraft and demons. Interesting... because the Bible itself and other works from the time of the Bible have very little to say on the subject of angels and demons... and even of Satan.

Read Memnoch the devil by Anne Rice to hear it from Satan, um Memnoch's own mouth. :p

where does the occult fall into play? i mean we talk about satan but how the hell (i made a funny) did he get worshipers, weird. Demons, witches (if they're real are they the occult? druids perhaps?) could there be diffrent classes, i also didn't know how many diffrent versions and explanations of Satan there were this has been interesting. (if there are some occult members out there perhaps you could answer these things.)

refresh listings.

Actually, Lucifer is a Roman god. He was literally "The Morning Star" or, as we now know him, the planet Venus. So, yes, you probably have seen Lucifer at least once.

I have also heard of a Roman emperor and probably a few kings who had that name as well. Possible relation in the passages quoted?

I don't really have any information to add to this discussion, but rather would like to applaud those that have posted. Not one person has yelled, name called, or been ignorant of someone elses post. I've enjoyed this read immensely and hope to see more. This makes me happy.

I have also heard of a Roman emperor and probably a few kings who had that name as well. Possible relation in the passages quoted?
I beleive that the Reference to Lucifer in Isiah [14:12] is sarcastically being applied to the Babylonian King. At other places the King of Tyre is called Satan, and Leviathan (from Job) is sometimes seen as the Devil.

i mean we talk about satan but how the hell (i made a funny) did he get worshipers

Various ways, as opposition to the established Christian Churches (who tended to dislike learning) and regimes created a reaction. The Masons as we know then today apparently started this way, secret rituals, handshakes and passwords had to be concocted because they were Republican and Monarchical regimes hunted them down. Similarly Lucifer became identified with knowledge and illumination, to such an extent that some thought Lucifer was really the Good god and the Christian god, evil (a bit like the Cathars and other Dualist heterodoxies)

i also didn't know how many diffrent versions and explanations of Satan
As far as I know, there are primarily three different concepts of 'Satan'

1) The typical Christian perspective of a renegade against an all power God.
2) Dualist perspective of Evil and Good being equally strong (but with different manifestations)
3) Single God who is ultimately not Good or bad (bit like the Greek gods)

I beleive that the Reference to Lucifer in Isiah [14:12] is sarcastically being applied to the Babylonian King. At other places the King of Tyre is called Satan, and Leviathan (from Job) is sometimes seen as the Devil.



Various ways, as opposition to the established Christian Churches (who tended to dislike learning) and regimes created a reaction. The Masons as we know then today apparently started this way, secret rituals, handshakes and passwords had to be concocted because they were Republican and Monarchical regimes hunted them down. Similarly Lucifer became identified with knowledge and illumination, to such an extent that some thought Lucifer was really the Good god and the Christian god, evil (a bit like the Cathars and other Dualist heterodoxies)


As far as I know, there are primarily three different concepts of 'Satan'

1) The typical Christian perspective of a renegade against an all power God.
2) Dualist perspective of Evil and Good being equally strong (but with different manifestations)
3) Single God who is ultimately not Good or bad (bit like the Greek gods)

thank you so much. i am a christian, but it seems like it is good to get multiple perscpectives, i always thought that all occult peoples wer just worshiping some evil being, but if they do not htink he is inherently evil that blurs the lines. That is the problem with knowledge, an uninformed opinion is usually 100% sure but with info. it becomes hazy, ahh mayhap ignorance is bliss.

thank you so much. i am a christian, but it seems like it is good to get multiple perscpectives, i always thought that all occult peoples wer just worshiping some evil being, but if they do not htink he is inherently evil that blurs the lines. That is the problem with knowledge, an uninformed opinion is usually 100% sure but with info. it becomes hazy, ahh mayhap ignorance is bliss.
I'm actually agnostic.

I just have a fasination with the occult, demonology and old folk lore.

I'm actually agnostic.

I just have a fasination with the occult, demonology and old folk lore.

i don't care what your religon is! i'm not like someone who will yell at you for not believing what i believe, and yah it is an interesting subject.

i don't care what your religon is! i'm not like someone who will yell at you for not believing what i believe, and yah it is an interesting subject.
I know that. Your previous posts have shown you to be tolerant (as well as the fact you didn't come onto the thread screaming hellfire and damnation).

Maybe I've been attacked for being a occultist too often, that I quickly get on the defensive.

Well, c'est la vie.

Revelations 12: 7-10, 12-13

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. . . . For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea; because the devil has come down to you, having greath wrath; knowing that he has only a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the worman who gave birth to the male child.

The New American Standard Bible

<snip> The Malleus Maleficarum, <snip>

...Is a pretty cool song :p

Various ways, as opposition to the established Christian Churches (who tended to dislike learning) and regimes created a reaction. The Masons as we know then today apparently started this way, secret rituals, handshakes and passwords had to be concocted because they were Republican and Monarchical regimes hunted them down. Similarly Lucifer became identified with knowledge and illumination, to such an extent that some thought Lucifer was really the Good god and the Christian god, evil (a bit like the Cathars and other Dualist heterodoxies)

Actually, pretty much ever major religion that's around now started off as a radical cult. Dunno about Judaism and Hinduism, but I know that Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism could VERY easily be classified as religious cults when they first started off.

Forgoten.

Actually, pretty much ever major religion that's around now started off as a radical cult. Dunno about Judaism and Hinduism, but I know that Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism could VERY easily be classified as religious cults when they first started off.

I don't know that I'd classify Judaism as a "radical cult" in its beginning, but as the first religion that espoused monotheism it was a serious break from the traditional religions of the time.

For the record, all "the occult" do not worship Satan. For example, Wiccans worship a goddess named, with Christian originality, the Goddess.

I don't know that I'd classify Judaism as a "radical cult" in its beginning, but as the first religion that espoused monotheism it was a serious break from the traditional religions of the time.
You might want to consult a follower of Zoroastrianism before you continue to keep that belief as truth. (It's been documented that Z. was the world's first true monotheistic religion and the Jews "borrowed" it when they were enslaved by the ?Ammonites?).

Anyway, I want to thank everyone who responded to this. The many different posts back have affirmed my belief that there is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE to the ORIGIN of the evil one, so Chritians who call upon this Lucifer and Hell business are simply full of malarky. Thanks all!

You might want to consult a follower of Zoroastrianism before you continue to keep that belief as truth. (It's been documented that Z. was the world's first true monotheistic religion and the Jews "borrowed" it when they were enslaved by the ?Ammonites?).

Anyway, I want to thank everyone who responded to this. The many different posts back have affirmed my belief that there is NO BIBLICAL REFERENCE to the ORIGIN of the evil one, so Chritians who call upon this Lucifer and Hell business are simply full of malarky. Thanks all!

You're right, I apologize, but it was the Babylonian capture that exposed the Jews to Zoroastrianism I do believe. It was the Jews, however, that spread the idea through the middle east in a way the Z worshippers didn't/couldn't.

Also, I thought I quoted a biblical reference to the origin of Satan, if you mean "when" did Satan "originate" in Judeao/Christian theology, then I'd have to say whenever Genenis 3 was written and the "fall of man" was described. As for "how" he came into being, the quote from Revelations tells you.

Y

Also, I thought I quoted a biblical reference to the origin of Satan, if you mean "when" did Satan "originate" in Judeao/Christian theology, then I'd have to say whenever Genenis 3 was written and the "fall of man" was described. As for "how" he came into being, the quote from Revelations tells you.
Which is a contradiction of Job though.

Its been a while, but what I remember from my Catholic C.C.D. days, Lucifer was God's most beautiful and perfect Angel/Creation. Long story short, he got arrogant, and thought he was as good/better then God. He started an uprising in heaven. God deposed him, and sent him and all his followers to Hell. That was known as The Fall. Lucifer and his minions now rule Hell.

In my chistian days thats what I was told. He was the most beautiful angel and the had the greatest voice in all of heaven.
He grew jealous. He wanted to be like God! Why couldn't he be better than God? He started a rebellion- and he was punished for rebelling against God.
Personally that is a great analogy for today- what makes us think he's an ugly horny fiend? Wouldn't he try to look the best in Church or Hollywood? Wouldn't he try to sound the best in Church or in Hollywood?

But I do find it weird- God wants us to be with him in Heaven yet he cast angels out of heaven because they sinned- they were against God?

there you go.

Of course, although this might be one of the references that was mentioned, this isn't about satan, or any other angel.

It is about the King of Tyre - who, though he lived like a king, dies like everyone else... the same way everyone dies.

How are you fallen.... even a KING dies like a person.

And the 'star of morning' refers to the planet Venus, which rises ahead of the sun, and so, consequently, sets before the sun.... hence the reference.

Also, you may be interested in this (http://www.gutenberg.net/dirs/1/2/5/8/12586/12586-h/12586-h.htm) book. Also from Project Gutenberg (don't you just love the public domain).
Oh, yes. I fear the day when lawyers can time-travel.

For the record, all "the occult" do not worship Satan. For example, Wiccans worship a goddess named, with Christian originality, the Goddess.
There actually is a name for the Christian God; it's just not well known. It's Yahweh. I suppose at least one other person here has seen Bruce Almighty. When Bruce finally figures out a way to organize prayers, it says "Yahweh!" kind of like Yahoo! and that is the origin of the program name.

Satan and Lucifer are never called the same person in the Bible. Christian theology, in order to make it all more easily understoood, have attributed every "evil" character or entity to Satan... names like Lucifer (a condemned king), Abbadon (literally "destruction" in Hebrew), the Serpent (of Adam and Eve fame), Wormwood (the "falling star" from Revelation, sometimes equated with the Anti-Christ), Beelzebub (a demon), Appolyon (the destroyer, name coming from Abbadon), Azazel (another demon), and others. All of those are fantastic names, but I agree with Goed that Lucifer is a beautiful name. I think that more people should name their children Lucifer.

Excellent. Good post.

Take a bow, Natashagrad.

Lucifer - the "bringer of light" is the 'star' that rises before the sun - the planet venus.

Morning Star, or Star of Morning - is a term that is ALSO used for Jesus, in Revelation - and is, once again, an astrological reference to the 'star' that precedes the sun.

Abbadon is 'stolen' - since it was originally the name of a PLACE of destruction - and, as this poster points out, literally MEANS "Destruction".

Wormwood is supposed to be a star that actually crashes into the earth, and kills lots of people.... in Revelations. Not connected in anyway with the 'satanic' myth - except by later 'assumption' that it MUST be a satan reference.

Satan - in the Old Testament, is a RANK. It is an office. One of the angels is 'HaSatan', or the Adversary. Think of him as the prosecution, in the courts of heaven. The 'defence' is played by men. HaSatan was the 'Accuser' of men - a task that SERVES god. Example: see the 'trial' of Job.

Satan, in the New Testament - is usually used as a reference for any opponent. As in, "Get thee behind me, Satan" - or "Get lost, you liar" (or some such). There are SOME references to this term as being a 'devil' character - but this is largely due to some misunderstanding of Torah, by proto-christians.

Beelzebub (Taken to mean "Lord of Flies") is actually merely the name of a Mesopotamian god. In various Mesopotamian cultures, gods were termed as 'lord' (either 'Baal' or "adonai")... for example, the geographically linked god of Zebul, would have been Baal-Zebul, which later became Beelzeboul, and finally, Beelzebub.

The important thing is, that the Hebrews were originally pantheistic (try reading the Old Testament in Hebrew - the evidence is still there). The Hebrews 'became' monotheistic with the advent of one, jealous 'creator' god - but the pantheistic elements lingered in the form of 'kherubim' and 'seraphim'.

Thus, when Mithraism and Zoroastrianism converged (geographically) with late-Hebrew / proto-christian theology - they found ripe ground for 'revelation' and 'duality'. Of course, in order for christianity to become a 'duality', there needs to be another 'power' - but, not a 'god', since the god of the Hebrews is 'the only god'... so - the Adversary of Man, becomes the Adversary, and the modern 'satan' myth is born.

If im remebering correctly, an -el ending means something like "radiant", and all the angels have an -el, Raphiel, Michel, ect. Before Lucifer was fallen he was called Lucifel, but was stripped of the -el when he was cast out.

Also, many of the beliefs surrounding the Fall did not come from the bible. The Divine Comedy by Dante is about the fall of Lucifer, and many belief are coming from it I think, like the beliefs in the circles of hell came from Dante's Inferno.

Which is a contradiction of Job though.

you really like that quote don't ya. i've heard it before, but can't remember where. Also this has been the only forum i've been on (i mostly do political and religious) that no ones screaming and yelling mild corrections to alter slightly off facts are all. o and about Christianity, Islam, and Buddihsm being cults to start with. yah, but don't tell that to people of those religons unless you know them real well, or if they don't care in particular what u believe. (like me)

the quote was the "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart thows a sword at you" thought it would be put in.

the qoute was the "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart thows a sword at you" thought it would be put in.
You had me confused for a second there. But it is from Monty Python and the Holy Grail

You had me confused for a second there. But it is from Monty Python and the Holy Grail

o yes the constitoutinal peasants if i rember correctly.

o yes the constitoutinal peasants if i rember correctly.
Yeah.

refresh

I remember the story about Satan is in the book of Daniel isn't it? My pc-bible isn't working.Dang. It's late for me to dish out my actual bible and look. *yawn*

Something about him, wanting to be like God. He's actually one of the 3 archangels, (other it's Micheal (leader of Gods army), and Gabriel(God's personal messanger)) Lucifer was the most beautiful one and the leader of God's choir (or leader of the worshippers), supposedly his music is beautiful.

Then, because he wanted to be like God, he tried to overthrow God by rallying up 1/3 of angels to go against God, but God defeated him and threw him down to earth.

Something like that...

If im remebering correctly, an -el ending means something like "radiant", and all the angels have an -el, Raphiel, Michel, ect. Before Lucifer was fallen he was called Lucifel, but was stripped of the -el when he was cast out.

Also, many of the beliefs surrounding the Fall did not come from the bible. The Divine Comedy by Dante is about the fall of Lucifer, and many belief are coming from it I think, like the beliefs in the circles of hell came from Dante's Inferno.

I think the 'el' part actually usually refers to a spirit, god or man - some kind of entity or entities... as in the "ELohim" or the (non-canonical) angel, Sammael - who is, I believe, refered to as the 'poisoned angel'.

The Lucifer/Lucifel story is just a story - an attempt to explain the 'connection' between Lucifer and HaSatan - which really doesn't exist.

I remember the story about Satan is in the book of Daniel isn't it? My pc-bible isn't working.Dang. It's late for me to dish out my actual bible and look. *yawn*

Something about him, wanting to be like God. He's actually one of the 3 archangels, (other it's Micheal (leader of Gods army), and Gabriel(God's personal messanger)) Lucifer was the most beautiful one and the leader of God's choir (or leader of the worshippers), supposedly his music is beautiful.

Then, because he wanted to be like God, he tried to overthrow God by rallying up 1/3 of angels to go against God, but God defeated him and threw him down to earth.

Something like that...

The book of Daniel is a collection of short stories about how Daniel could interpret dreams, how loyal his three henchmen were, and a collection of possibly prophetic dreams and visions about the end of the world.

I don't recall anything about 'satan'.

Also, that 1/3 of the angels rebelling sounds suspiciously non-scriptural. I'd suspect a different source.

I don't know that I'd classify Judaism as a "radical cult" in its beginning, but as the first religion that espoused monotheism it was a serious break from the traditional religions of the time.

Second, the emergence of monotheism in Judaism is largely thought to have emerged after the time of Akhenaten in Egypt. It has been speculated that Aton-Ra (Akhenaten's god) is the same word as Adonai in Hebrew (meaning Lord) and that monotheism may have been imported into Canaan by Akhenaten's priests fleeing persecution after his death.

There actually is a name for the Christian God; it's just not well known. It's Yahweh.

Firstly, it's YHWH (Yahweh is just phonetics). Secondly, that's a name of God, not THE name of God.

Note: Qabbalah is not some washed up rock star with a piece of string around her bleedin' wrist.

I think the 'el' part actually usually refers to a spirit, god or man - some kind of entity or entities...

Originally, it was the name of the Canaanite father God (El, obviously). It gets confusing when the Hebrew God is called Yahweh-Elohim, as Elohim is plural.

Firstly, it's YHWH (Yahweh is just phonetics). Secondly, that's a name of God, not THE name of God.

Note: Qabbalah is not some washed up rock star with a piece of string around her bleedin' wrist.

Welcome back, Dischordiac.

As Dischordiac points out, it is YHWH... the Tetragrammaton - although I think it's more of a 'symbol' than a 'name', as such.... more like; YHWH is what god MEANS, rather than what 'he' is called.

All right, I'm finally breaking down on this one. I've actually read the Bible a lot; more than many people I would say. But I tend to skip around a lot.
So can someone kindly point me to the book, (chaper and verse) that talks about the fall of Lucifer and all that? The whole heirarchy of angels and all? Thanks.

If you really want to know about Lucifer and the heirarchy of non-human beings you should be reading the gnostic gospels, not the bible.

Besides that, I think that it has been stablished quite consistently the relation between Prometheus and Lucifer, and other mithological figures that in some way tried to make mankind more independent from the gods. In regards to that area you can search prometheus + lucifer in any search engine, a lot of garbage will come up, but some serious mythological/cultural/religious research can be found.

Besides interpretaions of Genesis 3:1-3:5, anOT mention is in Wisdom 2:24, which only Catholics consider Scripture. New Testemanet wise, mention occurs in John 8:44 and Rev. 12:9. However, you are correct in your feelings about Satan as we know of him not coming completely from Scripture, most eveything we gather of the devil being a fallen angel is actually taught by Tradition (Dante's source of information and Milton's as well).

it is so weird, most religious forums are the worst for yelling and such. It tis such a touchy subject, but i have not seen anything worse than mild disgreements over technical details or some minor corrections, hope ne-cannen does not show up tho, he is a reigous fundamentalist. (for those who don't know)

Bobslovakia signing off for now.

Needless to say, Anton Lavey is arguably the father of modern Satanism, hence the somewhat emphatic and satirical tone of the above text.

My own opinion on where Satan came from, is that every good story needs a bad guy, and the Christian bible is no exception.

You just clearly slapped Satanists in the face. Anton LaVey is an insult to modern Satanism. In 1975 he reformed the Church fo Satan into a non-functioning vehicle for his own personal monetary gain by selling "memberships" and "priesthoods" to people.

Satan originates from many mythologies. The name Satan itself is from Set Hen. Set was originally a circumpolar - stellar deity portrayed as a counterpart to the Solar Horus. Set later on was recast as an evil principle by the cults of Osiris and Isis. During the XIX & XX Dynasties, Set returned as the Pharaonic patron, but by the XXV Dynasty a new wave of Osirian persecution led to the final destruction of the original Priesthood of Set. When the Hebrews emigrated from Egypt during the XIX Dynasty, they took with them a caricature of Set; "Satan".

Satan originally was a sort of "prosecuting angel for YHVH". The Hebrew Satan was changed by Christianity into a personification of everything God was not, and since God was supposed to be "good", Satan was necessarily "bad". Alluring or mysterious deities from religions competing with early Christianity - such as the Hellenic/Roman Mysteries and the Persian Mithraic faith - were also "bad", hence Satan was decorated with a great deal of their characteristics, such as Pan's horns and cloven hoofs. Non-Christian gods tend to have been were redefined as CHristian "demons" and given a place in the Christian "Hell" - which of course is another name stolen and perverted, this time from ancient Norse mythology.

The original Priesthood of Set in ancient Egypt survived for just about twenty-five recorded dynasties, and was one of the two central priesthoods in predynastic times (The other being HarWer, or "Horus the Elder"). Unification of Egypt under both philosphical systems resulted in the nation's being known as the two kingdoms, and in it's Pharoahs wearing the famous Double Crown of Horus and Set.

Welcome back, Dischordiac.

As Dischordiac points out, it is YHWH... the Tetragrammaton - although I think it's more of a 'symbol' than a 'name', as such.... more like; YHWH is what god MEANS, rather than what 'he' is called.

I disagree. God is used in place for YHVH so as to be sure to not use the Lord's name in vain.. *duh duh duh*

You just clearly slapped Satanists in the face. Anton LaVey is an insult to modern Satanism. In 1975 he reformed the Church fo Satan into a non-functioning vehicle for his own personal monetary gain by selling "memberships" and "priesthoods" to people.

No, he's pretty accurate. There is a difference between Modern Satanism, which is an almost-atheistic club of elitists (and they openly admit it), and the 1800s Satanism, which is an actual worship of Satan as a being, though they often disagreed as to what form.

No, he's pretty accurate. There is a difference between Modern Satanism, which is an almost-atheistic club of elitists (and they openly admit it), and the 1800s Satanism, which is an actual worship of Satan as a being, though they often disagreed as to what form.

Incorrect. What you are describing is Luciferianism, which is a religion that believes everyone in it's own right is their own god, as does Modern Satanism to an extent, but goes further and declares Satan as a non-existant being, but a perfect symbol for humanity.

[Exploring Luciferianism a little further, it's a mix of Athiesm, Satanism, and the Philosophy of Dr. LaVey. Luciferianism denies the existence of devils/monsters/gods or any other type of deity that was brought to existence by Christian mythology. The difference between Luciferianism and Satanism is that a Satanism essentialy believes that they should enjoy their life (way over simplyifing it...), while Luciferianists are a lot more aggressive - they state right out that Christians are nothing but members of a large cult, brainwashed by their so-called "Priests". They also believe that Jesus Christ was a cult-leading, brainwashin hippy. Well, minus the hippy.

Incorrect. What you are describing is Luciferianism, which is a religion that believes everyone in it's own right is their own god, as does Modern Satanism to an extent, but goes further and declares Satan as a non-existant being, but a perfect symbol for humanity.

LaVey founded the CoS originally as a just "medium" for the black arts, and also as as a statement of indignation repudiating the hypocrisy of mainstream religion within conventional society. When he founded the CoS, Satanism as a religion in it's own right was essentially created. In this, can be seen as the father of modern Satanism. Publicly the Satan of the CoS was not the evil scarecrow of Christian mythology, but much rather the champion of anti-hypocrisy, crusader against the corroption of moral bankruptcy of society, which he of course blamed on Christianity. In a more private context, Satan from the CoS was understood to be an authetnic metaphysical presence - a being not evil, but rather independent, assertive, creative - essentially a true Prince of Darkness after after the imagery of Baudelaire, Milton, Blake, and Twain.

CoS = Church of Satan

Incorrect. What you are describing is Luciferianism, which is a religion that believes everyone in it's own right is their own god, as does Modern Satanism to an extent, but goes further and declares Satan as a non-existant being, but a perfect symbol for humanity.

Which is comical to hear you say, as my information about the Church of Satan I got from their website. Who do you think would know more about what they believe?

The other Satanism I am talking about is actually Satanism, though in a form that died out and was not recognized officially as a religion. Satanism, as it existed back then, varied and covered a lot of what you claim Modern Satanism to be. Pretty much all of your stuff is about the Old School Satanism as opposed to the Modern form.

[Exploring Luciferianism a little further, it's a mix of Athiesm, Satanism, and the Philosophy of Dr. LaVey. Luciferianism denies the existence of devils/monsters/gods or any other type of deity that was brought to existence by Christian mythology. The difference between Luciferianism and Satanism is that a Satanism essentialy believes that they should enjoy their life (way over simplyifing it...), while Luciferianists are a lot more aggressive - they state right out that Christians are nothing but members of a large cult, brainwashed by their so-called "Priests". They also believe that Jesus Christ was a cult-leading, brainwashin hippy. Well, minus the hippy.

Uh-huh. And where is your basis for this info?

To be honest, CoS has pretty much defined Modern Satanism. They are the standard by which everyone else is judged. Even the US military recognizes that. The "enjoying your life" part is one of the tenants taken from one part of the 1800s Satanism.

Which is comical to hear you say, as my information about the Church of Satan I got from their website. Who do you think would know more about what they believe?

The other Satanism I am talking about is actually Satanism, though in a form that died out and was not recognized officially as a religion. Satanism, as it existed back then, varied and covered a lot of what you claim Modern Satanism to be. Pretty much all of your stuff is about the Old School Satanism as opposed to the Modern form.



Uh-huh. And where is your basis for this info?

To be honest, CoS has pretty much defined Modern Satanism. They are the standard by which everyone else is judged. Even the US military recognizes that. The "enjoying your life" part is one of the tenants taken from one part of the 1800s Satanism.

And as I said, the Church of Satan is nothing more than a capital venture in existence to make money. To be honest, I think it's funny that you are telling a Satanist about.. Satanism. In 1975 the Church of Satan split. Most of the Priests left the CoS due to LaVey's reformation of the Church for financial gain.

Modern Satanists beliefs vary. Some follow the Psychological school of Modern Satanism, which believes that Satan is some primoridial side of the human psyche. Some the Symbolic, and yet again some even the Naturalist. But all the views of Modern Satanism essentially are against the full beliefs of LaVey, afterall - who would know better than his daughter, who formed the First Satanic Church back in 1999 due to the CoS split from the principles that her father held?

And as I said, the Church of Satan is nothing more than a capital venture in existence to make money. To be honest, I think it's funny that you are telling a Satanist about.. Satanism. In 1975 the Church of Satan split. Most of the Priests left the CoS due to LaVey's reformation of the Church for financial gain.

Modern Satanists beliefs vary. Some follow the Psychological school of Modern Satanism, which believes that Satan is some primoridial side of the human psyche. Some the Symbolic, and yet again some even the Naturalist. But all the views of Modern Satanism essentially are against the full beliefs of LaVey, afterall - who would know better than his daughter, who formed the First Satanic Church back in 1999 due to the CoS split from the principles that her father held?

I asked for proof. You provided none. Therefore, I hold your arguement as unproven and the information you just posted as baseless. You have no point and no arguement.

Incorrect. What you are describing is Luciferianism, which is a religion that believes everyone in it's own right is their own god, as does Modern Satanism to an extent, but goes further and declares Satan as a non-existant being, but a perfect symbol for humanity.

[Exploring Luciferianism a little further, it's a mix of Athiesm, Satanism, and the Philosophy of Dr. LaVey. Luciferianism denies the existence of devils/monsters/gods or any other type of deity that was brought to existence by Christian mythology. The difference between Luciferianism and Satanism is that a Satanism essentialy believes that they should enjoy their life (way over simplyifing it...), while Luciferianists are a lot more aggressive - they state right out that Christians are nothing but members of a large cult, brainwashed by their so-called "Priests". They also believe that Jesus Christ was a cult-leading, brainwashin hippy. Well, minus the hippy.

actually tho i am a christian, i don't think we created much mythology, i mean they pretty much stole the words, and perverted the definitions. but does that count as creating? weird so Satanism is kind of a whatever jsut live yur life type o thing, but Lucifernarianism is like the anti-christian religon this whole forum has been funny.

Others have mentioned the Biblical quotes most pertinent to the discussion, but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the most exhaustive (and I mean this in the most literal sense of the term) account of Lucifer and the fall is in John Milton's Paradise Lost.

Basically, Lucifer was originally one of the 5 Seraphim (sometimes known as archangels, but I've seen conflicting accounts about whether seraphim=archangel), the others being Michael, Gabriel, Azrael, and Israfel (the last two getting little or no screen time in just about anything I've read). The basic story is that he led a revolt rather than submit to the judgments of God (thus the phrase: "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."), which was eventually defeated by the greater contingent of angels under Michael. He was cast out of heaven and thrown into hell with the angels that had followed him. Some such angels include Beelzebub (sometimes confused with Satan, but actually a distinct entity that is the lieutenant of Lucifer. Generally described as the causer of plagues and disease, Beelzebub is not as strong as some of the other minions of Satan, but makes up for it by being smarter and more ruthless. In Paradise Lost, it was Beelzebub who came up with the idea of the Temptation of Eve), Azazel (as I recall, a warrior angel, now a bringer of conflict among men), and Mammon (the bringer of greed, hence the Gospel phrase "you cannot serve both God and Mammon.")

As a side note, Zoroastrianism came into contact with Judaism during the Persian's rule of Palestine, not during the Babylonian Captivity.

I asked for proof. You provided none. Therefore, I hold your arguement as unproven and the information you just posted as baseless. You have no point and no arguement.

uh-oh, here it comes where we ditch this kinda utopian type forum is gonna start going to personal insults. please don't i respect what you both are saying. I am neither a Satanist or well read enough about the subject to debate it but please don't start the insults.

uh-oh, here it comes where we ditch this kinda utopian type forum is gonna start going to personal insults. please don't i respect what you both are saying. I am neither a Satanist or well read enough about the subject to debate it but please don't start the insults.

One of the things I have found about internet arguements is sometimes people try to wiggle out of providing evidence when asked, usually a sign they don't have any. Even a "Hold on while I go get some" or "I don't have any on hand" is preferable over dodging it altogether.

To be honest, it is sad I must take such a position on the evidence issue when online, but it has developed from years of dealing with those who simply don't have any and try every trick they can to wiggle out of it. I wish I didn't have to be that way, but being hardline like that has been required in too many arguements for me to risk not taking that position.

satan is derived from the existence of the pure band camp. this state created evil so raw that it just had to manifest itself.

I asked for proof. You provided none. Therefore, I hold your arguement as unproven and the information you just posted as baseless. You have no point and no arguement.

The only proof I have is the fact that the majority of the Priesthood of the CoS left in 1975, and shortly after created the Temple of Set, considering Satans name originates from the heiroglyphics "Set Hen", and the Egyptian mythology is acknowledged as one of the oldest. That and the fact that they charge $200 and falsely claim that most Churches charge a 10% tithe on income (Every single Church I have been to - which is everyone in Bloomington/Normal - they only ask for money that you can spare, and don't require any amount of cash for becoming a member of the congregation...)

That, and Karla LaVey (the daughter of Anton) left the CoS due to the fact that it wasn't following the beliefs of her father. She started the First Satanic Church which it claims to be a resurgence of Satanic ideals, closer to the spirit of her father's original teachings.

You ask me for proof, I give you what I have. But the Satanist community at large looks down at LaVey Satanists themselves, and also have a dislike for LaVey although respect Magus LaVey for many of his ideological beliefs.

LaVey continued to (cynically) advertise the CoS as a religion until his death, and to sell memberships and priesthoods as I already have said - and if you do not believe that then you can try getting in touch with someone from the CoS, although it probably won't happen.

The only proof I have is the fact that the majority of the Priesthood of the CoS left in 1975, and shortly after created the Temple of Set, considering Satans name originates from the heiroglyphics "Set Hen", and the Egyptian mythology is acknowledged as one of the oldest. That and the fact that they charge $200 and falsely claim that most Churches charge a 10% tithe on income (Every single Church I have been to - which is everyone in Bloomington/Normal - they only ask for money that you can spare, and don't require any amount of cash for becoming a member of the congregation...)

That, and Karla LaVey (the daughter of Anton) left the CoS due to the fact that it wasn't following the beliefs of her father. She started the First Satanic Church which it claims to be a resurgence of Satanic ideals, closer to the spirit of her father's original teachings.

You ask me for proof, I give you what I have. But the Satanist community at large looks down at LaVey Satanists themselves, and also have a dislike for LaVey although respect Magus LaVey for many of his ideological beliefs.

Let me rephrase what I said: Provide me with the sources of your information.

I sometimes forget the multiple meanings of "proof."

And where do we hear about the incubus(spirits, not the band) and succubus?
i thought those were invented in the middle ages to place the blame for sexual desires and wet dreams at the fault of demons.

Let me rephrase what I said: Provide me with the sources of your information.

I sometimes forget the multiple meanings of "proof."

The Temple of Set, the group that split from the CoS in 1975 due to LaVey's corruption, and founded by the majority of the Priesthood of Mendes (Satanic Priesthood).

Kara LaVey's Church says outright there is a lack of a Satanic presence, even though you claim that the CoS is such a presence. Interesting that the two sole Churches, with at least one of which being a federally recognized church/religion (Temple of Set), do not recognize the CoS as a Satanic

i thought those were invented in the middle ages to place the blame for sexual desires and wet dreams at the fault of demons.

I was always under the belief that the Incubus and Succubus were related to Vampyres, those damned to live amongst the shadows and feed on the life force of humanity.

If it's any help, Zoroastrianism was the first religion to have opposing deities of good and bad. The original concept of satan, and also that of a single god, is from this Persian religion.

Read Milton's Paradise Lost. That's where the most famous story came from.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 (literal translation)

Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord Jehovah: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared.

You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.

Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I will put you before kings, that they may see you.

By the host of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trade, you have defiled your holy places. So I brought a fire from your midst and it shall devour you, and I will give you for ashes on the earth in the sight of all who see you.

All who know you among the peoples shall be appalled at you. You shall be terrors, and you will not be forever.

dunno if this has already been posted, but I did see the isaiah passage.

I was always under the belief that the Incubus and Succubus were related to Vampyres, those damned to live amongst the shadows and feed on the life force of humanity.

The mythology of vampires is a mix of various different elements and most of it is literary rather than traditional (drawing specifically from the writings of Le Fanu and Stoker). Vampires and Incubi/Succubi do share one element of origin in the Hebrew mythos of Lilith, but, if you read Le Fanu's "Carmilla" or Stoker's "Dracula", you'll see tons of classical references of all kinds (my girlfriend wrote her BA dissertation on the symbolism of vampire literature).

I disagree. God is used in place for YHVH so as to be sure to not use the Lord's name in vain.. *duh duh duh*

Any reference to God or Jesus, no matter what the name, in a disrespecting sense is regarded as taking the Lord's name in vain. Exclaiming "Good God" isn't any better than shouting "Jehovah".

The true name of God is unknown, and possibly unknowable (if you believe this stuff, of course).

The Bible uses lots of Metaphors. I think Hell & The Devil is no exception.

People find someting more useful to do with your PC time than talk about god and satan like surf for porn as neither exsit full stop

Read Milton's Paradise Lost. That's where the most famous story came from.
http://www.literature.org/authors/milton-john/paradise-lost/

I really am a nerd, I have this book marked (also, I'm cheap hence using an online edition rather then buying it).

Another good one to look at is Dante's Divine Comedy which I think can be found at http://www.gutenberg.net/. Not sure though, I felt it prudent to actually buy a proper translation (I found Dorothy Sayers to be the best)

In my chistian days thats what I was told. He was the most beautiful angel and the had the greatest voice in all of heaven.
He grew jealous. He wanted to be like God! Why couldn't he be better than God? He started a rebellion- and he was punished for rebelling against God.
Personally that is a great analogy for today- what makes us think he's an ugly horny fiend? Wouldn't he try to look the best in Church or Hollywood? Wouldn't he try to sound the best in Church or in Hollywood?

But I do find it weird- God wants us to be with him in Heaven yet he cast angels out of heaven because they sinned- they were against God?

Good point - The image of the horned demon (either the red horned creature or the Goat of Mendes) is one created by early christians to discredit other religions, paganism etc.

Good point - The image of the horned demon (either the red horned creature or the Goat of Mendes) is one created by early christians to discredit other religions, paganism etc.

More correctly, the image of the horned one was taken from other religions (particularly the Greek God Pan (http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/PAN.HTM)) by the early Christians and changed from a god to a demon.

All right, I'm finally breaking down on this one. I've actually read the Bible a lot; more than many people I would say. But I tend to skip around a lot.
So can someone kindly point me to the book, (chaper and verse) that talks about the fall of Lucifer and all that? The whole heirarchy of angels and all? Thanks.

Satan was Baai, a head God of Canaanites (or Phoniecians ... or something like that). The Jews turned him into something "evil" to destroy the old religion and stop worship of the old Gods. His symbol was the bull I think.

umm actually its Baal.

And you will find that many Christians dont believed in the horned pitchfork carrying devil, but unfortunately many do.
Personally I believe Satan is still the most beautiful of the angels...he just happens to be the most evil.

Satan was Baai, a head God of Canaanites (or Phoniecians ... or something like that).

Actually, the Canaanite Baal was corrupted into Beelzebub, much like the Goddess Astarte became Ashtoreth in Christian mythos and Tiamat of Babylonian mythology became Tehom, the deep, in Hebrew.

(note: true believers switch off here) The cosmology of the Bible/Torah is little more than edited highlights of the preceding Sumerian/Babylonian/Canaanite/Egyptian religions. God, in the Judeao-Christian mythos, is a combination of Marduk, El, Aten-Ra with whatever the original Canaanite YHWH was.

I was always under the belief that the Incubus and Succubus were related to Vampyres, those damned to live amongst the shadows and feed on the life force of humanity.

what are vampires? minor (or major i dunno) demons who got satan pissed at em too? had to live on earth?

umm actually its Baal.

And you will find that many Christians dont believed in the horned pitchfork carrying devil, but unfortunately many do.
Personally I believe Satan is still the most beautiful of the angels...he just happens to be the most evil.

dunno about baal, but that would give a reason to the name from diablo 2. also i agree with the angel part. i have never heard/read anything that says god changed his form, just kicked him out of heaven. Also if he hadn't like tried to do it by force, i don't believ going into competition with you father for example is evil. TV shows and movies have not helped in that regard ;)

Actually, the Canaanite Baal was corrupted into Beelzebub, much like the Goddess Astarte became Ashtoreth in Christian mythos and Tiamat of Babylonian mythology became Tehom, the deep, in Hebrew.

(note: true believers switch off here) The cosmology of the Bible/Torah is little more than edited highlights of the preceding Sumerian/Babylonian/Canaanite/Egyptian religions. God, in the Judeao-Christian mythos, is a combination of Marduk, El, Aten-Ra with whatever the original Canaanite YHWH was.

i suppose christians didn't really create much did we? just decide to corrupt/ change demons to our liking :mp5:

what are vampires? minor (or major i dunno) demons who got satan pissed at em too? had to live on earth?
I don't think they are classified as demons, but undead. So really haven't even been to hell.

For life of me I cannot remember what Dracul did to become a vampire (I know he was a bastard though). I have a feeling they may have been followers/worshippers of the devil and had been granted dark powers as a reward. I have also heard an [unconvincing arguement] is was a speciall punishment from god. But haven't read that anywhere.

Other Vampiric spirits have been seen as minor spirits/demons to plague the faithful (ie excuse for wet dreams and sexual thoughts) [succubi, incubi]. Also the case of Lilith is very interesting (try typing it into google).

The Ancient Greeks also had the idea of the Empusae [?] who were daughters of Hecate [goddess of the black arts iirc], who would seduce men and suck out there life force whilst they slept.

I don't think they are classified as demons, but undead. So really haven't even been to hell.

For life of me I cannot remember what Dracul did to become a vampire (I know he was a bastard though). I have a feeling they may have been followers/worshippers of the devil and had been granted dark powers as a reward. I have also heard an [unconvincing arguement] is was a speciall punishment from god. But haven't read that anywhere.

Other Vampiric spirits have been seen as minor spirits/demons to plague the faithful (ie excuse for wet dreams and sexual thoughts) [succubi, incubi]. Also the case of Lilith is very interesting (try typing it into google).

The Ancient Greeks also had the idea of the Empusae [?] who were daughters of Hecate [goddess of the black arts iirc], who would seduce men and suck out there life force whilst they slept.

lol it is like humans to find some way to blame sexual thoughts. i can just imagine someone yelling "piss off you incubus!" what is weird about lilith from what i've heard is she is the first wife of adam. (maybe i'm thinking of another lilith or just mixd up) but if i'm correct, did adam marry his own daughter or did god create another female?

lol it is like humans to find some way to blame sexual thoughts. i can just imagine someone yelling "piss off you incubus!" what is weird about lilith from what i've heard is she is the first wife of adam. (maybe i'm thinking of another lilith or just mixd up) but if i'm correct, did adam marry his own daughter or did god create another female?
Nothing weird about Lilith.

If I remember the legend properly. God originally created Adam from the mud and saw that he needed a companion so he created Lilith (also created from the mud). However Lilith refused to lie beneath during sex, claiming that since they both came from the earth they were equal and should lie side by side. Adam got a bit pissed off at this and asked God to intercede on his behalf. Lilith eventually fled, and God sent angels after her to bring her back, which she refused to do. Claiming that as revenge for what Adam had done she would steal mans children (something like 10,000 a night or something). Since Lilith had gone, Adam needed a wife, and not wanting the same thing to happen again, created Eve out of his rib.

One wonders why God just didn't tell Adam not to be an arrogant jerk and save all this trouble.

Nothing weird about Lilith.

If I remember the legend properly. God originally created Adam from the mud and saw that he needed a companion so he created Lilith (also created from the mud). However Lilith refused to lie beneath during sex, claiming that since they both came from the earth they were equal and should lie side by side. Adam got a bit pissed off at this and asked God to intercede on his behalf. Lilith eventually fled, and God sent angels after her to bring her back, which she refused to do. Claiming that as revenge for what Adam had done she would steal mans children (something like 10,000 a night or something). Since Lilith had gone, Adam needed a wife, and not wanting the same thing to happen again, created Eve out of his rib.

One wonders why God just didn't tell Adam not to be an arrogant jerk and save all this trouble.

hmmm. i don't seem to remember Adam being a moron in sunday school weird. i suppose that they wanted it to seem like it was a perfect world, with no morons around at all. o this is unrelated, but some evangelicals say that if you don't believe in jesus you go to hell. while this is probably true, what happened to all the native americans around for years and years before any missionarys came? they went to hell for all eternity for bad luck essentially?

hmmm. i don't seem to remember Adam being a moron in sunday school weird. i suppose that they wanted it to seem like it was a perfect world, with no morons around at all. o this is unrelated, but some evangelicals say that if you don't believe in jesus you go to hell. while this is probably true, what happened to all the native americans around for years and years before any missionarys came? they went to hell for all eternity for bad luck essentially?
Well according to traditional Catholic Dogma (as well as the Divine Comedy [Inferno] (http://www.gutenberg.net/etext/8789)) They are sent to Limbo, which is also the first circle of Hell. Not really too bad, but outside the grace of God. The technical term is the 'Virtuous Pagan' or something.

Well according to traditional Catholic Dogma (as well as the Divine Comedy [Inferno] (http://www.gutenberg.net/etext/8789)) They are sent to Limbo, which is also the first circle of Hell. Not really too bad, but outside the grace of God. The technical term is the 'Virtuous Pagan' or something.
It's really easy: this is a tough question, and since noone (except for Jesus, ofcourse but he never talked about it) ever came back to talk about it, we don't know, best thing is to wait a bit and just find out. It's not our decision anyway.

this is my first post.

just wanted to say hi :fluffle:

The origin of Vampyres originates back to Ancient Egypt. Anne Rice explored the origins of Vampyres with her series, "The Vampire Chronicles". While much of it is fiction, the origins are in fact based somewhat off of truth. The movie "Queen of the Damned" was based off of the third book in that series. On a side note, a friend of mine tried to laugh at the Talamascans until I pointed out that Talamasca means "Animal Mask" and is an actual secret society that investigates the "Paranormal".

There were many examples of vampyres, vampyric-like creatures, demons, spirits, vampyre hunters throughout many different civilizations. Asasabonsam, Obayifo, Aswang, Bhuta, Brahmaparusha, Chedipe, Chiang-shih, Churel, Kali, Kappa, Maneden, Penanggalan, Pisachas, olong, Pontianak, Rakshasas, Yara-ma-yha-who, Asema, Camazotz, Cihueateteo, Civateto, Jaracaca, Lobishomen, Loogaroo, Sukuyan, Tlahuelpuchi, Bruja, Bruxa, Callicantzaros, Drakul, Dhampir(or vampirdzhija), Djadadjiii, Incubi/Succubi, Lamia, Lidérc, Nachzehrer, Neuntöter, Nora, Obur, Redcap, Strigoiu, Upir, Ustrel, Dakhanavar, Ghul(Ghouls), and finally Lilith, the SUmerian vampyric-demonic figure.

Ardat Lili (known as the 1st wife of Adam, left him to go dwell in the desert). Becoming a demoness and the mother of all demons, attacking infants, sucking their blood and strangling them. The Ardat Lili legend made it's way into and throughout Europe after the Jewish Diaspora, and is the basis for many other female vampyric-like demonesses who attacked children, including the Bruja and Lamia of Greece and Spain respectively.

After diong some research, I guess Incubu/Succubi are like ghouls, and closely linked with vampyres, but completely unlike both of them. They are spirits, and not animated corpses. They don't drain the victims of their blood nor energy, apparently exhausting them to death by coming in every night to have sex with them. Worn out and helpless, those who were victimized by the Incubi/Succubi died of asphixiation.

Ghouls are associated with both vampyres and INcubi/Succubi, but of course unlike both. Also with zombies, but different from them as well (Zombies are controlled by witches, apparently). Ghouls eat corpses, not blood (but sometimes are known to eat the flesh of the living).

Good point - The image of the horned demon (either the red horned creature or the Goat of Mendes) is one created by early christians to discredit other religions, paganism etc.

Mende's Goat is actually a symbol, shown below. Interesting that Lilith is a part of the symbol, at least I think so. The Hebrew letters around the pentacle spell out "leviathan".

http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/symbols/mendes.jpg

I disagree. God is used in place for YHVH so as to be sure to not use the Lord's name in vain.. *duh duh duh*

I don't really see how that is a disagreement or a refutation...?


See - "god" isn't used, either, to avoid taking his name in vain... in fact, some people won't even go that far, and use g_d, instead.

Try reading up on the 'significance' of the Tetragrammaton - you'll understand why I say it is more 'description' than name.

Also - 'god' wasn't used to stop having to say the name... 'adonay' - stolen from those pesky Mesopotamians - was used... by simply adding the 'pronunciation points' for adonay into the 'text' of YHWH.

Any reference to God or Jesus, no matter what the name, in a disrespecting sense is regarded as taking the Lord's name in vain. Exclaiming "Good God" isn't any better than shouting "Jehovah".

The true name of God is unknown, and possibly unknowable (if you believe this stuff, of course).

Thank you.

EVERY name for god (in the Judeo-Christian traditions) is either a title or a description... the god HAS no name... that's almost the point...

Actually, the Canaanite Baal was corrupted into Beelzebub, much like the Goddess Astarte became Ashtoreth in Christian mythos and Tiamat of Babylonian mythology became Tehom, the deep, in Hebrew.

(note: true believers switch off here) The cosmology of the Bible/Torah is little more than edited highlights of the preceding Sumerian/Babylonian/Canaanite/Egyptian religions. God, in the Judeao-Christian mythos, is a combination of Marduk, El, Aten-Ra with whatever the original Canaanite YHWH was.

After a bumpy start with Dischordiac a few threads ago....

I have discovered a great deal of respect.

Excellent post, Dischordiac... take a bow.

*Applause*.

The origin of Vampyres originates back to Ancient Egypt. Anne Rice explored the origins of Vampyres with her series, "The Vampire Chronicles". While much of it is fiction, the origins are in fact based somewhat off of truth. The movie "Queen of the Damned" was based off of the third book in that series. On a side note, a friend of mine tried to laugh at the Talamascans until I pointed out that Talamasca means "Animal Mask" and is an actual secret society that investigates the "Paranormal".

There were many examples of vampyres, vampyric-like creatures, demons, spirits, vampyre hunters throughout many different civilizations. Asasabonsam, Obayifo, Aswang, Bhuta, Brahmaparusha, Chedipe, Chiang-shih, Churel, Kali, Kappa, Maneden, Penanggalan, Pisachas, olong, Pontianak, Rakshasas, Yara-ma-yha-who, Asema, Camazotz, Cihueateteo, Civateto, Jaracaca, Lobishomen, Loogaroo, Sukuyan, Tlahuelpuchi, Bruja, Bruxa, Callicantzaros, Drakul, Dhampir(or vampirdzhija), Djadadjiii, Incubi/Succubi, Lamia, Lidérc, Nachzehrer, Neuntöter, Nora, Obur, Redcap, Strigoiu, Upir, Ustrel, Dakhanavar, Ghul(Ghouls), and finally Lilith, the SUmerian vampyric-demonic figure.

Ardat Lili (known as the 1st wife of Adam, left him to go dwell in the desert). Becoming a demoness and the mother of all demons, attacking infants, sucking their blood and strangling them. The Ardat Lili legend made it's way into and throughout Europe after the Jewish Diaspora, and is the basis for many other female vampyric-like demonesses who attacked children, including the Bruja and Lamia of Greece and Spain respectively.

After diong some research, I guess Incubu/Succubi are like ghouls, and closely linked with vampyres, but completely unlike both of them. They are spirits, and not animated corpses. They don't drain the victims of their blood nor energy, apparently exhausting them to death by coming in every night to have sex with them. Worn out and helpless, those who were victimized by the Incubi/Succubi died of asphixiation.

Ghouls are associated with both vampyres and INcubi/Succubi, but of course unlike both. Also with zombies, but different from them as well (Zombies are controlled by witches, apparently). Ghouls eat corpses, not blood (but sometimes are known to eat the flesh of the living).

As a matter of interest... the 'blood' diet is a fairly new invention in vampiric lore, as is the having a physical form. Looking back at the Egyptian equivalent of vampires, for example, they had no physical bodies (which is WHY they roamed), and sustained themselves off of the life essences of living creatures... such as excrement.

Kappa originally were described as feeding on blood, yes, but they chiefly fed on the blood of horses, by sucking it out through a certain bodily orifice, which I won't name, to protect the eyes of possible minors.

The Incubi and Succubi legends probably derive from Sumerian vampires, who were bodiless spirits that fed on the 'life essences' of humans, those life essences being in the form of ejaculatory material.

As a matter of interest... the 'blood' diet is a fairly new invention in vampiric lore, as is the having a physical form. Looking back at the Egyptian equivalent of vampires, for example, they had no physical bodies (which is WHY they roamed), and sustained themselves off of the life essences of living creatures... such as excrement.

Kappa originally were described as feeding on blood, yes, but they chiefly fed on the blood of horses, by sucking it out through a certain bodily orifice, which I won't name, to protect the eyes of possible minors.

The Incubi and Succubi legends probably derive from Sumerian vampires, who were bodiless spirits that fed on the 'life essences' of humans, those life essences being in the form of ejaculatory material.

From what I read, vampyres are/were a malign spirit (believed to be the restless soul of criminals, heretics, or those who committed suicide) that has refused to join the ranks of the dead, instead leaving it's burial place (in it's original body) or taking possession of another's corpse, and then becoming a bloodsucking creature in order to continue enjoying the pleasures that the living enjoyed.

I need to go now, more later. Of course, each vampyric representation has it's own characteristics.

From what I read, vampyres are/were a malign spirit (believed to be the restless soul of criminals, heretics, or those who committed suicide) that has refused to join the ranks of the dead, instead leaving it's burial place (in it's original body) or taking possession of another's corpse, and then becoming a bloodsucking creature in order to continue enjoying the pleasures that the living enjoyed.

I need to go now, more later. Of course, each vampyric representation has it's own characteristics.

The 'restless souls leaving the burial place' variety of vampire myth is a largely Eastern-European version of the story, and much younger than the non-corporeal stories. Also - those early East European vampires were usually cannibalistic, rather than blood-sucking, and either mindless, or vengeful spirits.

The 'romantic' notion of the vampire (the lordly character who is a passionate creature... in whom the blood craving becomes a sublimation of sexuality and desire) predates the writing of the "Dracula" story by just a little way... now, what was the name of the book... "Vathek, the Vampire", perhaps... I do not have my mythology library with me!

The 'restless souls leaving the burial place' variety of vampire myth is a largely Eastern-European version of the story, and much younger than the non-corporeal stories. Also - those early East European vampires were usually cannibalistic, rather than blood-sucking, and either mindless, or vengeful spirits.

The 'romantic' notion of the vampire (the lordly character who is a passionate creature... in whom the blood craving becomes a sublimation of sexuality and desire) predates the writing of the "Dracula" story by just a little way... now, what was the name of the book... "Vathek, the Vampire", perhaps... I do not have my mythology library with me!

There is also the myth where Mankind was almost destroyed. It is similar to the storyline in the novel and movie, "Queen of the Damned" - Akasha, Mother of all Vampyres - but it is different. (Myth of Ancient Egypt)

Short version is that mankind wanted to overthrow the God's using the powers they gave mankind, and to stop this they chose Sekhmet (the force against which no other froce avails) to manifest herself on the Earth and "punish" all who kept imagined wicked plots against the Gods and imagined their destruction.

Story has it that Sekhmet walked among men and destroyed them, and drank their blood. Night after night, she literally waded in blood, slaughtering humans, tearing and destroying their bodies, and drinking their blood. Sekhmet was overcome with a thirst for blood that could not be controlled. "High on Human blood", so to speak. Anyway, skipping to the end - the God's got Sekhmet high on other drugs that made her happy and she stopped killing humans. The end.

Needless to say, Anton Lavey is arguably the father of modern Satanism, hence the somewhat emphatic and satirical tone of the above text.

My own opinion on where Satan came from, is that every good story needs a bad guy, and the Christian bible is no exception.


Goddamn it! Beat me to it! *sigh* Shemhamforash!


The 'romantic' notion of the vampire (the lordly character who is a passionate creature... in whom the blood craving becomes a sublimation of sexuality and desire) predates the writing of the "Dracula" story by just a little way... now, what was the name of the book... "Vathek, the Vampire", perhaps... I do not have my mythology library with me!

I belive you mean Polidory's (sp) "The Vampyre"

Also Incubi are mentioned in the bible several times. Forget exact verses but try anything related to Soddom and Gomorah (sp).

I can't be assed to read the rest of the topic! :P I'll come back later...

As a matter of interest... the 'blood' diet is a fairly new invention in vampiric lore, as is the having a physical form. Looking back at the Egyptian equivalent of vampires, for example, they had no physical bodies (which is WHY they roamed), and sustained themselves off of the life essences of living creatures... such as excrement.

Kappa originally were described as feeding on blood, yes, but they chiefly fed on the blood of horses, by sucking it out through a certain bodily orifice, which I won't name, to protect the eyes of possible minors.

The Incubi and Succubi legends probably derive from Sumerian vampires, who were bodiless spirits that fed on the 'life essences' of humans, those life essences being in the form of ejaculatory material.

That's part of the problem when talking about vampires: every culture has a notion of them, but beyond the fact that they are the dead that feed on the living, they tend to differ substancially from culture to culture. Most of our notions of a vampire tend to come from the Slavic dhlampyr (sp?), which IIRC was the Romanian/Bulgarian conception of a vampire.

Generally speaking, there are two ways a person becomes a vampire. The first is to be a manifestly evil person in life, so much so that you are cursed not just in this life but the next as well. As such, criminals were commonly assumed to become vampires, which is why criminals in Europe were often hung at crossroads--so they could never find their way back to terrorize the living they once knew.

The second way was for a human to drink vampire blood. Contrary to fairly contemporary notions, simply being bitten by a vampire isn't enough (in that case, you're just food). You instead had to actively will yourself, by in effect drinking the defiled blood of the recently-living, to become one. Do that, and you assure yourself the worst kind of immortality.

As far as killing one, generally speaking accounts differ to some degree, but the most universal method is to decapitate the head and burn the body. Usually you want a silver weapon to do this. Staking is a more recent feature, taken from the Romanians and Bulgarians. In this case, you don't so much kill the vampire as pin it in its coffin and keep it from getting out. The proviso of course is that you have to use either a silver or a oaken stake (oak was only introduced post-Christianity, because Jesus was supposed to be crucified on an oaken cross). Crosses are best a dicey anti-vampire tool, because many varieties don't seem to recognize the divinity of God.

The only other fairly consistent claim made by vampires is that they lack a soul. Accounts differ as to a) what happens to the soul of the human afterward, b) whether the body is infested with a demonic spirit, or simply becomes a killing machine in its own right, and c) how this lack of a soul is manifested. Some vampires don't show up in mirrors or reflections in water, some don't cast shadows during the day, etc.

T
After diong some research, I guess Incubu/Succubi are like ghouls, and closely linked with vampyres, but completely unlike both of them. They are spirits, and not animated corpses. They don't drain the victims of their blood nor energy, apparently exhausting them to death by coming in every night to have sex with them. Worn out and helpless, those who were victimized by the Incubi/Succubi died of asphixiation.

not a half bad way to die tho lol.

That's part of the problem when talking about vampires: every culture has a notion of them, but beyond the fact that they are the dead that feed on the living, they tend to differ substancially from culture to culture. Most of our notions of a vampire tend to come from the Slavic dhlampyr (sp?), which IIRC was the Romanian/Bulgarian conception of a vampire.

Generally speaking, there are two ways a person becomes a vampire. The first is to be a manifestly evil person in life, so much so that you are cursed not just in this life but the next as well. As such, criminals were commonly assumed to become vampires, which is why criminals in Europe were often hung at crossroads--so they could never find their way back to terrorize the living they once knew.

The second way was for a human to drink vampire blood. Contrary to fairly contemporary notions, simply being bitten by a vampire isn't enough (in that case, you're just food). You instead had to actively will yourself, by in effect drinking the defiled blood of the recently-living, to become one. Do that, and you assure yourself the worst kind of immortality.

As far as killing one, generally speaking accounts differ to some degree, but the most universal method is to decapitate the head and burn the body. Usually you want a silver weapon to do this. Staking is a more recent feature, taken from the Romanians and Bulgarians. In this case, you don't so much kill the vampire as pin it in its coffin and keep it from getting out. The proviso of course is that you have to use either a silver or a oaken stake (oak was only introduced post-Christianity, because Jesus was supposed to be crucified on an oaken cross). Crosses are best a dicey anti-vampire tool, because many varieties don't seem to recognize the divinity of God.

The only other fairly consistent claim made by vampires is that they lack a soul. Accounts differ as to a) what happens to the soul of the human afterward, b) whether the body is infested with a demonic spirit, or simply becomes a killing machine in its own right, and c) how this lack of a soul is manifested. Some vampires don't show up in mirrors or reflections in water, some don't cast shadows during the day, etc.

You are incorrect about the Dhampir. The Dhampir (Serbian) is a Vampire's Son, the only person believed to be able to see and kill a vampire. In the late 17th, early 18th centuries, some people would hire themselves out as vampyre killers under the guise of being a Dhampir. The Bulgarian form of a Dhampir is a Vampirdzhija.

The correct Serbian name for a vampire would be "Vampyre". Serbo-Croation would be "Uprinia", and Slavonic vampires known as "Oupire" or "Nosufur-atu".

Excellent post, Dischordiac... take a bow.

*Applause*.

*Bows* This stuff has been a pet subject of mine since the pure unoriginality of it all ended my Catholic-ness 14 years ago or so. A fabulous book on the transmission of imagery through the ages is "Myth of the Goddess" by Baring & Cashford - particularly the bit where they compare the Babylonian Enuma Eilish with Genesis, and then compare Genesis with Revelation - basically concluding that all three are the very same story with slight variations (mostly in the names). Marduk vs. Tiamat becomes Adonai Yahweh-Elohim vs. Tehom/Leviathan/etc, which, in turn, becomes the second coming of the Messiah vs. the Antichrist.

Of course, the religious among us would probably say "through a glass darkly".

This raises an interesting question though - Would any of you choose to be a vampyre? To live a life dead to the world, hungry for blood (or whatever you feed on, be it emotions/ones life force), living a life of eternal darkness and loneliness - as all you have is yourself and no one else. Walking amongst the shadows, cut off from most of the joys and fruits of the living. Not able to walk out in the day and experience the warmness of the sun on your skin with that nice summer breeze. Would you choose to be alone and immortal, or dead? Of course, I'm questioning wether you would want to become the modern interpretation of a vampire etc.

Mmm, this is interesting. Do any of you know of any books on the subject of the vampire myths in different cultures? I'm a bit of a myth nerd, y'see...

There is also the myth where Mankind was almost destroyed. It is similar to the storyline in the novel and movie, "Queen of the Damned" - Akasha, Mother of all Vampyres - but it is different. (Myth of Ancient Egypt)

Short version is that mankind wanted to overthrow the God's using the powers they gave mankind, and to stop this they chose Sekhmet (the force against which no other froce avails) to manifest herself on the Earth and "punish" all who kept imagined wicked plots against the Gods and imagined their destruction.

Story has it that Sekhmet walked among men and destroyed them, and drank their blood. Night after night, she literally waded in blood, slaughtering humans, tearing and destroying their bodies, and drinking their blood. Sekhmet was overcome with a thirst for blood that could not be controlled. "High on Human blood", so to speak. Anyway, skipping to the end - the God's got Sekhmet high on other drugs that made her happy and she stopped killing humans. The end.

Didn't they confuse her with wine? Because it looked like blood....

*Bows* This stuff has been a pet subject of mine since the pure unoriginality of it all ended my Catholic-ness 14 years ago or so. A fabulous book on the transmission of imagery through the ages is "Myth of the Goddess" by Baring & Cashford - particularly the bit where they compare the Babylonian Enuma Eilish with Genesis, and then compare Genesis with Revelation - basically concluding that all three are the very same story with slight variations (mostly in the names). Marduk vs. Tiamat becomes Adonai Yahweh-Elohim vs. Tehom/Leviathan/etc, which, in turn, becomes the second coming of the Messiah vs. the Antichrist.

Of course, the religious among us would probably say "through a glass darkly".

The religious among us might... and then fail to see the very same transitions even WITHIN their own religion... e.g. Cain and Abel retold as Esau and Jacob, or Abraham sacrificing Isaac retold as god sacrificing Jesus.

I seem to remember that the Babylonian 'genesis' even has a naughty snake, who causes Gilgamesh(?) to 'lose the secret of immortality'... which sounds strangely familiar to some other story I have heard...

The religious among us might... and then fail to see the very same transitions even WITHIN their own religion... e.g. Cain and Abel retold as Esau and Jacob, or Abraham sacrificing Isaac retold as god sacrificing Jesus.

I seem to remember that the Babylonian 'genesis' even has a naughty snake, who causes Gilgamesh(?) to 'lose the secret of immortality'... which sounds strangely familiar to some other story I have heard...

And the "Golden Age" of the greeks end with Prometheus and Pandora, it's no news... the people wasn't immortal I think, but they were in a state of complete joy and they lost it.

And the "Golden Age" of the greeks end with Prometheus and Pandora, it's no news... the people wasn't immortal I think, but they were in a state of complete joy and they lost it.

Zeus was certain they were best of as they were. Prometheus din't think so and gave them fire. a cosmic law said that anything one god/titan gave, no other could take away. So zeus chained prometheus to a stone, he couldn't die, but 2 giant vultures sat on him and ate his liver i think. it kept coming back tho because couldn't die, he sat up there until hercules rescued him. (which royally pissed off zeus i believe) that's how i learned it anyhow.

And the "Golden Age" of the greeks end with Prometheus and Pandora, it's no news... the people wasn't immortal I think, but they were in a state of complete joy and they lost it.

also actually, it was pandora and prometheus's brother. i cant remember his stupid name. he wasn't as smart as prometheus and didn't realize the trick. Zeus pretended that pandora (the first woman,) was a gift to show he was only pissed at prometheus [see previous post] anyhow she opened the box, and man was cursed bla bla bla bla bla.

also actually, it was pandora and prometheus's brother. i cant remember his stupid name. he wasn't as smart as prometheus and didn't realize the trick. Zeus pretended that pandora (the first woman,) was a gift to show he was only pissed at prometheus [see previous post] anyhow she opened the box, and man was cursed bla bla bla bla bla.
Not just the man, the whole human race wasn't it?

Didn't they confuse her with wine? Because it looked like blood....

What the God's did was take thousands of barrels of alcohol and human blood and put powerful drugs in it, and then poured it along that land for miles and miles along a path she would pass through, so that it would be absorbed by the plants. She ate the plants and drank the rest of the blood that wasn't absorbed and became joyous, no longer needing human blood to become happy or to feel whole etc.

Not just the man, the whole human race wasn't it?

welcome back Conceptualists. i believe it was you due to the watery broad quote. no i mean man as a species, not a person sorry should have been more clear.

helloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo anyone there?

helloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo anyone there?

No.

No.

o

also actually, it was pandora and prometheus's brother. i cant remember his stupid name. he wasn't as smart as prometheus and didn't realize the trick. Zeus pretended that pandora (the first woman,) was a gift to show he was only pissed at prometheus [see previous post] anyhow she opened the box, and man was cursed bla bla bla bla bla.

At no point I suggested that Prometheus' and Pandora's myths were related, they were the two greek myths that gave the humanity separation from the Gods, that's it.

At no point I suggested that Prometheus' and Pandora's myths were related, they were the two greek myths that gave the humanity separation from the Gods, that's it.

k sorry misinterpreted your quote. Just curious didn't Prometheus's gift of fire to the humans make them closer to the gods (in the sense of more powerful)?

k sorry misinterpreted your quote. Just curious didn't Prometheus's gift of fire to the humans make them closer to the gods (in the sense of more powerful)?

No, it's the exact opposite - it separated them from the gods by making them more independent. It may have made them closet to being gods themselves, but it's a classic hero quest, which ends with the removal of the hero (or mankind in general) gaining dominion over their surroundings and independence from the primal forces that previously controlled them (in the form of the gods).

You are commonly referring to the original angel that was cast down, punished by the all loving god to the foul, burning decayed, pits of hell. But, there is another devil that some may not be aware of. Can anyone speak on Asmodeus? Just...stirring up some talk. I would like to see others' knowledge on the subject.

You are commonly referring to the original angel that was cast down, punished by the all loving god to the foul, burning decayed, pits of hell. But, there is another devil that some may not be aware of. Can anyone speak on Asmodeus? Just...stirring up some talk. I would like to see others' knowledge on the subject.

From what i know, it is like another name. Kinda like Prince of Flies, King of Darkness etc. that's what little info. my readings have given me.

You are commonly referring to the original angel that was cast down, punished by the all loving god to the foul, burning decayed, pits of hell. But, there is another devil that some may not be aware of. Can anyone speak on Asmodeus? Just...stirring up some talk. I would like to see others' knowledge on the subject.

Well, the name comes from the same Hebrew root as "abaddon", so probably means destruction... The only actual reference, scripturally, that I can think of is from the Catholic version of the bible, in the book of Tobias - where Asmodeus kills a series of men who would be the husband of a girl... apparently, because they had 'impure motives' in wanting to marry her.

I think it is Tobias himself who wishes to marry her for 'pure' motives, and Raphael casts Asmodeus out, so that he can marry her, without being killed on the wedding night.

The name 'Asmodeus' is most likely from the word "destruction" in Hebrew, the same as Abaddon... but it is uncertain if this is another case of the name of a place being confused with a 'person'. ("Abaddon" is the name of a PLACE of destruction - but has become synonomous with a destructive 'spirit').

Interesting how this thread has evolved. I'm almost sorry I mentioned Incubi and Succubi as that degenerated into talk of vampires.
I guess I pretty mush proved my point that the whole story of the fall of Lucifer has no BIBLICAL reference. The Bible passeage quoted had to do with a serpent tempting Eve, The King of Tyre, but nothing about the story of Lucifer. I know about Milton, I know about Baphomet and Baal and all that.
I just don't understand why fundamentalists are whipped into a frenzy by tales written by Dante, Virgil and Milton. I would figure if it's not in the Bible, it ain't so!