NationStates Jolt Archive

It's really very simple, and I don't see why more people haven't seen it (Okay, I actually didn't see it until I was told, but it still is pretty simple).

Thousands of years ago, back when all the Great Floods happened in the different religions, people really couldn't get around. There were no cars, no trains, no airplanes, not even very good boats. You were limited by how far you could walk, and that was extended a little bit by the horse. Entire civilisations sometimes only extended their reach for a few miles outside of their 'nation'. They have no information of land beyond what they and their companions have seen, so for them that small bit of land where they live is the entire world.

So, a big Flood comes. Not a Planet Covering Flood, just a normal Flood like we get in Florida after the hurricanes. It covers their land and cities and the people who live there, because they don't know better, think that it has covered the entire world.

It seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

Actually, I've discussed this with my dad before. People were really centralized back then. How else would so many people believe the world iwas flat? These were the same people that saw the sun revolving around us, mind you.

Although I agree with you... try as you might and you'll never be able to convince many others of this idea. There's a little book that oh so many people regard as "The Book" and if this book says "the entire world was flooded," then sure as hell... "the entire world was flooded"

Thats sounds logical. The Greek great flood also happened in only one valley in the story.

There was no plumbing back then either, so peple had to live close to rivers, hence the flooding. Your theroy is pretty logical.

Also nearly every culture has flood myths because floods existed and were devestating in nearly every culture. I say nearly because some African tribes don't have flood myths, but they also never get floods. Kinda cool eh?

It's really very simple, and I don't see why more people haven't seen it (Okay, I actually didn't see it until I was told, but it still is pretty simple).

Thousands of years ago, back when all the Great Floods happened in the different religions, people really couldn't get around. There were no cars, no trains, no airplanes, not even very good boats. You were limited by how far you could walk, and that was extended a little bit by the horse. Entire civilisations sometimes only extended their reach for a few miles outside of their 'nation'. They have no information of land beyond what they and their companions have seen, so for them that small bit of land where they live is the entire world.

So, a big Flood comes. Not a Planet Covering Flood, just a normal Flood like we get in Florida after the hurricanes. It covers their land and cities and the people who live there, because they don't know better, think that it has covered the entire world.

It seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?
It does, indeed. "The world" was a lot smaller then than it is now.

That was a dern good piece of reasoning. Your theory makes perfect sense.

This is another of those things that I'm at a loss to how people can get through High School without knowing this. You get this same lecture in Freshman year global history, it's in more books than not, it's even in Colton-Palmer (which every Euro history class since 1960 has used). Are most of you really that uninterested with history & culture?

Actually, that explains a lot...

It's really very simple, and I don't see why more people haven't seen it (Okay, I actually didn't see it until I was told, but it still is pretty simple).

Thousands of years ago, back when all the Great Floods happened in the different religions, people really couldn't get around. There were no cars, no trains, no airplanes, not even very good boats. You were limited by how far you could walk, and that was extended a little bit by the horse. Entire civilisations sometimes only extended their reach for a few miles outside of their 'nation'. They have no information of land beyond what they and their companions have seen, so for them that small bit of land where they live is the entire world.

So, a big Flood comes. Not a Planet Covering Flood, just a normal Flood like we get in Florida after the hurricanes. It covers their land and cities and the people who live there, because they don't know better, think that it has covered the entire world.

It seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?

While an interesting theory for sure, it is in no way definitive.

As far as I'm aware (although I may be wrong, as I haven't researched it particularly thoroughly), the Egyptians had no flood myth. Maybe because the flooding of the nile was such a central part of their day to day lives, they didn't find it a particularly inspiring subject for mythology.

Not to mention that a flood is a pretty common disaster to have. Pretty much every culture back then had a river that flooded anually, sometimes nicely, sometimes not.

As far as I'm aware (although I may be wrong, as I haven't researched it particularly thoroughly), the Egyptians had no flood myth.

I'm pretty sure the Inuit's didn't have a flood myth either, but I could be wrong.

My guess is that the Great Flood myth may have a lot to do with the last glacial melt at the end of the last Ice Age.... since nearly all of the cultures that have that myth are in the Northern Hemisphere, and we (humans) lived fairly close to the margins, it would seem logical.

There is a current theory that believes the great flood that filled the Black Sea basin may be the actual origination of the myth as far as Europe and the Middle East goes (about 11,000 years ago). A massive flood occured around the same time in North America too (Lake Bonneville flood).

Always fun to speculate though.

I am amazed I haven't seen the more devout Fundamentalist Christians among us post something yet though.

My guess is that the Great Flood myth may have a lot to do with the last glacial melt at the end of the last Ice Age.... since nearly all of the cultures that have that myth are in the Northern Hemisphere, and we (humans) lived fairly close to the margins, it would seem logical.


Yeah, that's where my thoughts head with flood myths


Ofcourse, ancient cultures share alot of common myths. I wonder if that has more to do with the theory of Gondwana land and that the varied races we have now were at one time, in much closer proximity to each other and had shared cultures. But over the millenia when the land broke up and peoples across the globe lost contact, they developed in separate ways, whilst still holding some common threads.

As far as I'm aware (although I may be wrong, as I haven't researched it particularly thoroughly), the Egyptians had no flood myth. Maybe because the flooding of the nile was such a central part of their day to day lives, they didn't find it a particularly inspiring subject for mythology.

Actually the Egyptians did have a flood myth. However, it is not really the same as most. The primordial mound, or nun, rose up from the water. The story is pretty elaborate (much more so that others). The world was thus created. This is similar to the Christian flood which is decribed in the Bible. However, the difference is that the world had been destroyed and then re-created.

But just on the original post in this thread, there is actual evidence supporting global flooding. There have been studies inside caves and there are geological indications (water marks etc) that a flood happened in what we know as early biblical times, many thousands of years ago. However, a scientific reason shows that this coincides with one of the post ice-ages the world has gone through. As the ice melted, the world was flooded for a period of time.

So, the myth of the world actually flooding has some evidence. At least, most Mediterranean civilisations tell of a flood, which if anything else suggests this particular Sea experienced great flooding at some time in the past.

There is a current theory that believes the great flood that filled the Black Sea basin may be the actual origination of the myth as far as Europe and the Middle East goes (about 11,000 years ago). A massive flood occured around the same time in North America too (Lake Bonneville flood).


First, nothing to with your post, but it has been mentioned several timed before. Not every culture has Great Flood myth. Only cultures around Mesopotamia have it (I don't know about native Indians, never heard of it before, I'll learn about it).
Then this theory you mentioned. It has been in several science magazines and those articles say that a narrow isthmus (gee, no wonder I had to check my dictionary) fell down after an earth quake (about where Istanbul is located) and the Mediterranean flooded on the Black Sea basin. There was a huge lake before that and as it's surroundings were a very fertile area, it was quite densely populated. The flooding has certainly been devastating.

Actually the Egyptians did have a flood myth. However, it is not really the same as most. The primordial mound, or nun, rose up from the water. The story is pretty elaborate (much more so that others). The world was thus created. This is similar to the Christian flood which is decribed in the Bible. However, the difference is that the world had been destroyed and then re-created.

But just on the original post in this thread, there is actual evidence supporting global flooding. There have been studies inside caves and there are geological indications (water marks etc) that a flood happened in what we know as early biblical times, many thousands of years ago. However, a scientific reason shows that this coincides with one of the post ice-ages the world has gone through. As the ice melted, the world was flooded for a period of time.

So, the myth of the world actually flooding has some evidence. At least, most Mediterranean civilisations tell of a flood, which if anything else suggests this particular Sea experienced great flooding at some time in the past.

And a quick link to back some of that up:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Noah

Points out quite nicely that no one agrees on this. There's evidence all over the world of flood cultures, which biblical literalists take as proof of a world flood, whereas others take it simply as a widespread occurance, perhaps at the end of an ice age or possibly separate instances.

Still a bit more about Nile. It certainly flooded like nothing before when it was formed. But it happened so long ago, that I'm not sure if there were people living in the area (Egypt) at the time. If I remember correctly it happened about 12 000 years ago.

. . .

I am amazed I haven't seen the more devout Fundamentalist Christians among us post something yet though.

Just how did that giant fossilized boat get on top of Mount Ararat? :D

Just how did that giant fossilized boat get on top of Mount Ararat? :D
Vatican secret agents put it there! :p

Vatican secret agents put it there! :p

Not wishing to sound as ignorant as I actually am, nor to sound like I am taking you seriously. but when did Rome ever have control over Turkey?

Not wishing to sound as ignorant as I actually am, nor to sound like I am taking you seriously. but when did Rome ever have control over Turkey?
Before the separation of church. Constantinople was the second (Christian) capital.

I remember one flood story where the survivors were to 'Throw their Mother's bones into the sea." When they realized it meant Mother Earth, Each stone they threw in brought back one person who was killed in the flood.

Now this is going to keep me awake.

Not wishing to sound as ignorant as I actually am, nor to sound like I am taking you seriously. but when did Rome ever have control over Turkey?

Rome controlled Turkey for a while.

Istanbul was, for a while, known as "Constantinople" - named after the Roman emperor Constantine. Actually, the eastern Roman empire, with Constantinople as a capital, flourished long after Rome itself was looted and sacked and the Western part of the Roman empire collapsed.

http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/TravelDetails/History/Romans.html
http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/TravelDetails/History/Byzantines.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium

Rome conquered Istanbul (then Byzantium) in 190 BC, renamed it Constantinople in 330 AD, and was not actually conquered again until 1453.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

I went to a christian school (and that's a memory I'm really trying to supress) and I remember my science teacher telling me thast there was evidence in the fossil layer to prove a major flood had covered the earth.

I did my own research and found that this fossil evidence was isolated to a single location somewhere in africa. I have to admit, I like the irony of a christian using evidence to back evolution

I went to a christian school (and that's a memory I'm really trying to supress) and I remember my science teacher telling me thast there was evidence in the fossil layer to prove a major flood had covered the earth.

I did my own research and found that this fossil evidence was isolated to a single location somewhere in africa. I have to admit, I like the irony of a christian using evidence to back evolution

have you read Velikovsky?

The scriptural deluge is regarded by historians and critical exegetes as a legendary product. “The legend of a universal deluge is in itself a myth and cannot be anything else.” (1) It is “most nakedly and unreservedly mythological.”

The tradition of a universal deluge is told by all ancient civilizations, and also by races that never reached the ability to express themselves in the written symbols of a language. It is found all over the world, on all continents, on the islands of the Pacific and Atlantic, everywhere. Usually it is explained as a local experience carried from race to race by word of mouth. The work of collating such material has repeatedly been done, and it would only fatigue the reader were I to repeat these stories as told in all parts of the world, even in places never visited by missionaries.(2)

The rest of the collected traditions are also not identical in detail, and are sometimes very different in their setting from the Noah story, but all agree that the earth was covered to the mountain tops by the water of the deluge coming from above, and that only a few human beings escaped death in the flood. The stories are often accompanied by details about a simultaneous cleavage of the earth.(3)

In pre-Columbian America the story of a universal flood was very persistent; the first world-age was called Atonatiuh, or the age that was brought to its end by a universal deluge. This is written and illustrated in the ancient codices of the Mexicans and was narrated to the Spaniards who came to the New Continent.(4) The natives of Australia, Polynesia, and Tasmania, discovered in the seventeenth century, related almost identical traditions.(5)

Clay tablets with inscriptions concerning the early ages and the deluge were found in Mesopotamia. Their similarity to the biblical account, and to the story of the Chaldean priest Berosus(6) who lived in the Hellenistic age, caused a great sensation at the end of the last century and the beginning of the current one. On this sensational discovery was based the sensational pamphlet Babel und Bibel by Friedrich Delitsch (1902) who tried to show in it that the Hebrews had simply borrowed this story, along with many others, from the Babylonian store of legends.

But if here and there the story of the flood could be said to have been borrowed by the scriptural writer from the Babylonians, and by some natives from the missionaries, in other cases no such explanation could be offered. The indigenous character of the stories in many regions of the world makes the borrowing theory seem very fragile.

Geologists see vestiges of diluvial rains all over the world; folklorists hear the story of a universal flood wherever folklore is collected; historians read of a universal flood in American manuscripts, in Babylonian clay tablets and in the annals of practically all cultured peoples. But the climatologists make it very clear that even should the entire water content of the atmosphere pour down as rain, the resulting flood could not have covered even the lowland slopes, far less the peaks of the mountains, as all accounts insist that this deluge did.



References

1. A. Loisy, Les mythes babyloniens et les premiers chapitres de la genese (Paris, 1901).

2. R. Andree, Die Flutsagen (1891); Sir J.G. Frazer, Folk-lore in the Old Testament (London, 1918); M. Winternitz, Die Flutsagen des Alterthums und des Natuervoelker

3. E.g., the Malaya story in Andree, Die Flutsagen, p. 29. s

4. [Cf. the Vatican Codex, first published by Humboldt, and the accounts of Ixtlilxochitl and Veytia among others.]

5. [Cf. A. C. Caillot, Mythes, legendes, et traditions des Polynesiens (Paris, 1914); H. H. Howorth, The Mammoth and the Flood (London, 1887), pp. 455ff.]

6. Berosus’ story of the Deluge is quoted in Eusebius’ Praeparatio Evangelica Bk. IX, ch. 12, and in Cyril’s Contra Julianum, Bk. I.

http://www.varchive.org/itb/deluge.htm



Last I heard Velikovsky's findings were widely respected and never credibly refuted. But I am sure somebody here can dig something up... ;)

It's really very simple, and I don't see why more people haven't seen it (Okay, I actually didn't see it until I was told, but it still is pretty simple).

Thousands of years ago, back when all the Great Floods happened in the different religions, people really couldn't get around. There were no cars, no trains, no airplanes, not even very good boats. You were limited by how far you could walk, and that was extended a little bit by the horse. Entire civilisations sometimes only extended their reach for a few miles outside of their 'nation'. They have no information of land beyond what they and their companions have seen, so for them that small bit of land where they live is the entire world.

So, a big Flood comes. Not a Planet Covering Flood, just a normal Flood like we get in Florida after the hurricanes. It covers their land and cities and the people who live there, because they don't know better, think that it has covered the entire world.

It seems pretty obvious, doesn't it?The cultural and economic connections between the people of the ancient world were further reaching than you guess, at least in the region between the eastern Mediterranean (Egypt, Hatti) and the Indus Valley, where the flood legends (not myths!) are almost the same and cover the same time frame (2nd half of 4th millennium BEC) and place (the Mesopotamian plain). So it can be assumed that at least this flood was a real event with traumatic effects on the population and which triggered divergence in the region's cultural set-up.
Other flood legends from other parts of the world do not match in time and place, so the real events behind those must also have been regional. The flood legends of Mesoamerica are placed in the same time as the Mesopotamian flood, so maybe some global climate condition (El Nino?) was responsible for floods in different parts of the world.

The cultural and economic connections between the people of the ancient world were further reaching than you guess, at least in the region between the eastern Mediterranean (Egypt, Hatti) and the Indus Valley, where the flood legends (not myths!) are almost the same and cover the same time frame (2nd half of 4th millennium BEC) and place (the Mesopotamian plain). So it can be assumed that at least this flood was a real event with traumatic effects on the population and which triggered divergence in the region's cultural set-up.
Other flood legends from other parts of the world do not match in time and place, so the real events behind those must also have been regional.

But consider the records of the Sumerians. In the first or so dynasty, kings lived for centuries, then in subsequent dynasties they lived for between a century or two, and then they lived for more respectable times, albeit not by our views of ancient life expectancies (but they were kings). This kind of confusion I believe comes from the fact that a new dynasty presented leadership by a new, or previously marginalized, culture, and with it a new or "modernized" language.

Does that ancient word in that dead tongue mean "years"? or "seasons"? or "moons"? Does its similarity to a word in a slightly older version of that tongue represent identity, or merely similarity? This confusion, from the same cultural roots as my first example, can be seen in the biblical story that tells of how 16-year-old Ishmael was carried on his mother Hagar's back while wandering in the desert.

So the different time-frames of the world-wide flood myths are not really conclusive proof that they did not originate in the same event.

I'm surprised that I didn't think of this sooner! I've always gone along with the catastrophic Black Sea flooding as the basis for this myth, especially since it occured roughly 5600 BCE (much later than many other large-scale post-ice age floods), roughly 2000 years before written history so it is likely that this story was passed down orally and adapted to fit into different cultures before finally being written down. (For those who don't know prior to the flood the Black Sea was a freshwater lake, much smaller in area than it is today, and was a perfect place for communities to thrive so when the flood occured there was massive loss of life that no doubt led to the stories of a global flood).
Native American/Incan and Mayan flood stories could have been based on any number of events that occured
It is not surprising that few if any African cultures had a flood story. The Australian Aboriginies did have one however, despite the barren outback that they lived in. The basis for this is that Australia and New Guinea were once connected by a low-lying plain but when sea levels rose it flooded roughly 12,000 years BCE. This may seem like too far in the past to be passed down but one must take into account that anthropologists regard the Aboriginies as the oldest culture that still exists today, begining over 50,000 years ago, so in this case it wouldn't be far-fetched to think that they passed this story down.
(Thanks to encyclopedia.freedictionary.com for this info)

Also genetic drift would have resulted in the extinction of most species sooner or later if only two of each was tasked with repopulating the world.

Last I heard Velikovsky's findings were widely respected and never credibly refuted. But I am sure somebody here can dig something up... ;)

Surely you jest? Try a search on +"Velikovsky" +"debunk" and see what a reputation the man has.

Surely you jest? Try a search on +"Velikovsky" +"debunk" and see what a reputation the man has.

Most of the top headlines seem to be aimed at debunking his planetary theories. Granted, but hardly germaine here.

Actually the Egyptians did have a flood myth. However, it is not really the same as most. The primordial mound, or nun, rose up from the water. The story is pretty elaborate (much more so that others). The world was thus created. This is similar to the Christian flood which is decribed in the Bible. However, the difference is that the world had been destroyed and then re-created.
This is more similar to the original Mesopotamian Creation story (Middle-East), where earth is formed from the waters of the Deep.

I remember one flood story where the survivors were to 'Throw their Mother's bones into the sea." When they realized it meant Mother Earth, Each stone they threw in brought back one person who was killed in the flood.

Now this is going to keep me awake.
This is the Hellenic (Greek) version, the story of Deucalion, son of Prometheus, King of Phthia. It is regarded as being of the same origin as the Mesopotamian stories because it was brought to Greece by the Hellads from Asia Minor.

I'm surprised that I didn't think of this sooner! I've always gone along with the catastrophic Black Sea flooding as the basis for this myth, especially since it occured roughly 5600 BCE (much later than many other large-scale post-ice age floods), roughly 2000 years before written history so it is likely that this story was passed down orally and adapted to fit into different cultures before finally being written down. (For those who don't know prior to the flood the Black Sea was a freshwater lake, much smaller in area than it is today, and was a perfect place for communities to thrive so when the flood occured there was massive loss of life that no doubt led to the stories of a global flood).
Native American/Incan and Mayan flood stories could have been based on any number of events that occured
It is not surprising that few if any African cultures had a flood story. The Australian Aboriginies did have one however, despite the barren outback that they lived in. The basis for this is that Australia and New Guinea were once connected by a low-lying plain but when sea levels rose it flooded roughly 12,000 years BCE. This may seem like too far in the past to be passed down but one must take into account that anthropologists regard the Aboriginies as the oldest culture that still exists today, begining over 50,000 years ago, so in this case it wouldn't be far-fetched to think that they passed this story down.But silt layers in the soil of Mesopotamia suggest a date sometime around 3200 BEC for the flood, and text sources also hint to that time frame. The time that would thus coincide with the flood is a period of great political and cultural changes in the region. The overall Sumerian culture breaks up into smaller divisions and spreads further out from Mesopotamia proper. New trade connections are established with the Indus valley and with the lands on both sides of the Gulf of Aden.
I have also read about the Black Sea flood but that one does not fit the Sumerian or biblical sources.
The flood at the end of the last ice-age (around 11200 BEC) is too far past to be a candidate for the flood. What I find striking though is that this flood would fit Plato's accout of the Atlantean flood ;-)
The Mesoamerican Maya date their flood to 3113 BEC.

I always put the World Flood myths down to our ancestors coming across fossilised shells, fish and other sea marine life high up in the mountains. Without the knowledge of continental drift, the only explanantion they could possibly come up with is that at one time the sea waters were at that level at one time. Add in the stories passed down thru the generations of terrible floods and hey presto! You have a Biblical-level flood innudating the entire world.

Here's a good link about flood stories.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

Here's a good link about flood stories.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.htmlIn the Sumerian legend, is it not Enlil who wants to destroy mankind and Enki who warns Ziusudra ?

In the Sumerian legend, is it not Enlil who wants to destroy mankind and Enki who warns Ziusudra ?
Ea warned Ziusudra/Utanapishtim. But you are correct; Enlil was the destroyer.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm

I love how he talks to walls. :D

Ea warned Ziusudra/Utanapishtim. But you are correct; Enlil was the destroyer.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab11.htm

I love how he talks to walls. :DThe point is: for obvious reasons the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Assyrian, and biblical accounts of the Flood tell about the same event. Of course the story was adjusted to fit the respective theological set-up of the respective time and region, but it is basically the same.
Even the names of the Flood-heroes are more or less the same, as well as the involved gods (Ea is no other, of course, than Yah, and Enlil no other than Eloa).