NationStates Jolt Archive

I used to always say America was slowly and surely moving to the left, but lately that doesn't seem to be the case. States left and right are banning gay marriage, Wisconsin is now teaching God in Science class, Texas health textbooks now being forced to define marriage as between a man and a woman, Bush's re-election for chrissake...

Bush is gonna appoint a few Supreme Court justices. Three of the nine are already ardent anti-abortionists. Just takes two more, and liberals Ginsburg and Stevens are looking pretty old.

So, how long till Roe v. Wade is repealed and the coathangers brought back?

I used to always say America was slowly and surely moving to the left, but lately that doesn't seem to be the case. States left and right are banning gay marriage, Wisconsin is now teaching God in Science class, Texas health textbooks now being forced to define marriage as between a man and a woman, Bush's re-election for chrissake...

What?! Are you saying that they're teaching Creationism? Seriously?

And, yeah, I read about the marriage thing in the newspaper friday. Apparantly the use of the word "partner" legitmizes homosexuality, which is a terrible thing to do and a wonderful thing to protest... :rolleyes:

Bush is gonna appoint a few Supreme Court justices. Three of the nine are already ardent anti-abortionists. Just takes two more, and liberals Ginsburg and Stevens are looking pretty old.

So, how long till Roe v. Wade is repealed and the coathangers brought back?

It's a possibility, though a slim one. Though maybe I'm just being optimistic.

I'm pinning my hopes on bloody (well, hopefully peaceful but effective) protests should Roe v. Wade be repealed. Seriously. The US was never supposed to be a Christian country. Agh. What is wrong with the world? My country (Australia) elected Howard, the US elected Bush. What's going on?

*sniffle*

...Wisconsin is now teaching God in Science class...

What?! That's my old state, and I never heard about this. Source? I'd really like to read where this happened.

I'm pinning my hopes on bloody (well, hopefully peaceful but effective) protests should Roe v. Wade be repealed. Seriously. The US was never supposed to be a Christian country. Agh. What is wrong with the world? My country (Australia) elected Howard, the US elected Bush. What's going on?

*sniffle*

Sorry, but the Pilgrims were Christians fleeing their country. Even after the constitution was created, Congress opened with a prayer. Think it's a mistake that IN GOD WE TRUST was put on all currency and UNDER GOD in the pledge of alliegence? Our Justice system used the Bible for swearing witnesses in court. Here [Hands Pie a clean Hankerchief]

No read Casey.

BTW Roe v. Wade is no longer good law in the US anyway.

Sorry, but the Pilgrims were Christians fleeing their country.
Fleeing because of religious oppression and persecution...only to continue in kind once they were the majority in the New World. :p

Even after the constitution was created, Congress opened with a prayer. Think it's a mistake that IN GOD WE TRUST was put on all currency and UNDER GOD in the pledge of alliegence? Our Justice system used the Bible for swearing witnesses in court. Here [Hands Pie a clean Hankerchief]
Yes I think it's a mistake. Religion has no place in government.

What?! That's my old state, and I never heard about this. Source? I'd really like to read where this happened.
It's pretty sad, but true. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Evolution%20Debate)

Another source on the general trend towards teaching that God made the world a few thousand years ago: http://www.bigeye.com/creation.htm

So I take it no-one here has read Casey then.

Please learn somthing before getting all bent out of shape about it.

Not only has Australia re-elected John Howard, the is a senator from the ominously named Family First party who wants a full inquiry into abortion in the country and various government ministers suggest that abortion is "too common." And I'm SURE the solution is making them difficult to access, not improving sex-ed or making the morning after pill (RU486) available... Or putting better contraceptive pills on the PBS. (I have to pay $40 for 3 months, or else get the kind that make you pimply, moody and fat...)
Also they compared the number of abortions to newborns; basically saying "if this many newborns died we'd be very concerned." Apples and oranges people...
And it's not like anyone is holding a gun to a woman's head and making her have an abortion...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=21745
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=21737

So I take it no-one here has read Casey then.

Please learn somthing before getting all bent out of shape about it.
I googled a bit, found the court case you're referring to, Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania vs. Casey, in which they sort-of upheld Roe v. Wade, but no longer regarded abortion as a fundamental right, and that throwing obstacles at women trying to get abortions is a legitimate tactic.

That does seem to be backtracking a bit. Maybe I'm reading into it wrong.

I googled a bit, found the court case you're referring to, Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania vs. Casey, in which they sort-of upheld Roe v. Wade, but no longer regarded abortion as a fundamental right, and that throwing obstacles at women trying to get abortions is a legitimate tactic.

That does seem to be backtracking a bit. Maybe I'm reading into it wrong.

No you got it.

It does backtrack on Roe rights.

That's why Roe is not good law. The thing that is most troublesome is O'connor's opinion that abortion should remain a right because people are used to it. That is a very weak premise. Nevertheless casey pretty much outlines that SCOTUS will not rule on this anytime soon.

No you got it.

It does backtrack on Roe rights.

That's why Roe is not good law. The thing that is most troublesome is O'connor's opinion that abortion should remain a right because people are used to it. That is a very weak premise. Nevertheless casey pretty much outlines that SCOTUS will not rule on this anytime soon.
That is troublesome.

In any case, just taking a look around various right-wing blogs (I force myself to do that, just to see what the other side is thinking), I see a lot of sentiment that Roe v. Wade will never be repealed, so they're gonna have to take it down piece by piece with lots of little legislations on lower court challenges. With clear Republican majorities in the House and Senate, I wouldn't be surprised to see various bills coming in to bump the limit for abortions up a few months, mandating 30-day waiting periods, mandating "education" of the woman about her choice (this would be throwing pictures of mangled fetuses in her face, and telling her how much she's gonna regret she murdered her own child years from now), parental approval all the way up to age 18, banning the abortion pill, protecting employees who refuse to sell abortion pills, things like that.

We're in for a long fight.

That is troublesome.

In any case, just taking a look around various right-wing blogs (I force myself to do that, just to see what the other side is thinking), I see a lot of sentiment that Roe v. Wade will never be repealed, so they're gonna have to take it down piece by piece with lots of little legislations on lower court challenges. With clear Republican majorities in the House and Senate, I wouldn't be surprised to see various bills coming in to bump the limit for abortions up a few months, mandating 30-day waiting periods, mandating "education" of the woman about her choice (this would be throwing pictures of mangled fetuses in her face, and telling her how much she's gonna regret she murdered her own child years from now), parental approval all the way up to age 18, banning the abortion pill, protecting employees who refuse to sell abortion pills, things like that.

We're in for a long fight.


I'll give you my honest opinion. Which is the same as Cass Sunstein's - a liberal law professor - this is something that is going to have to be won in the state houses ultimately. If we want to keep this as a legal option we have to start to reach out to the rest of the country and explain to them tha pro-choice != pro abortion, and in any case it's about freedom.

If we just rely in scotus for this we are sunk.

I'll give you my honest opinion. Which is the same as Cass Sunstein's - a liberal law professor - this is something that is going to have to be won in the state houses ultimately. If we want to keep this as a legal option we have to start to reach out to the rest of the country and explain to them tha pro-choice != pro abortion, and in any case it's about freedom.

If we just rely in scotus for this we are sunk.
Heh. SCOTUS got us through segregation and legalizing abortion, things that I find it doubtful a large number of states could get through their legislations.

In the short-term, the Religious Right is powerful, but any candidate the Republicans put forward in 2008 is likely to be one of the famous moderates.

And as time goes on people in America are becoming less religious by far. I honestly think the whole "moral majority" thing is a desperate resort by the religious right to hold power in a country that will soon have Christians as a minority.

An interesting study on religious trends in America (I'll probably start a thread on it later): http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/key_findings.htm

Sorry, but the Pilgrims were Christians fleeing their country. Even after the constitution was created, Congress opened with a prayer. Think it's a mistake that IN GOD WE TRUST was put on all currency and UNDER GOD in the pledge of alliegence? Our Justice system used the Bible for swearing witnesses in court. Here [Hands Pie a clean Hankerchief]
None of which is the same as making laws based on the Bible, which is prohibited by your Constitution.

I used to always say America was slowly and surely moving to the left
When and why did you ever think this?

In 1970 one of Nixon's aides said to him "this country is moving so far to the right that you wouldn't believe it". I'm guessing he said it more optimistically than you would say it.

Left. Right... I'm hoping we all move to the middle.

So, how long till Roe v. Wade is repealed and the coathangers brought back?

The overturn Rove v. Wade will not, as some believe, make abortion illegal. It will return the legality of abortion to the states, where in actuality, it belongs.

It's pretty sad, but true. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Evolution%20Debate)

Another source on the general trend towards teaching that God made the world a few thousand years ago: http://www.bigeye.com/creation.htm

Well, I see the stuff on Georgia (no surprise there), but I'm missing the stuff about Wisconsin mandating the teaching of creationism. That's what allarms me. I know it happens in the South...

Well, I see the stuff on Georgia (no surprise there), but I'm missing the stuff about Wisconsin mandating the teaching of creationism. That's what allarms me. I know it happens in the South...
Huh?! Could have sworn that link was to the Wisconsin mess!

Oh well, here's the CNN story: Wisconsin district to teach more than evolution (http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/11/06/evolution.schools.ap/)

Says the School superintendant: "The science curriculum should not be totally inclusive of just one scientific theory".

Somebody please explain to this woman the difference between scientific theories and religious propoganda.

The overturn Rove v. Wade will not, as some believe, make abortion illegal. It will return the legality of abortion to the states, where in actuality, it belongs.
And then the Southern states will ban abortion.

Don't you see anything wrong with this?!

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE COURTS.

States can NOT just make any law they want. THIS is why we have constitutions. And THIS is why we have courts to throw out bullshit laws.

I used to always say America was slowly and surely moving to the left, but lately that doesn't seem to be the case. States left and right are banning gay marriage, Wisconsin is now teaching God in Science class, Texas health textbooks now being forced to define marriage as between a man and a woman, Bush's re-election for chrissake...

Bush is gonna appoint a few Supreme Court justices. Three of the nine are already ardent anti-abortionists. Just takes two more, and liberals Ginsburg and Stevens are looking pretty old.

So, how long till Roe v. Wade is repealed and the coathangers brought back?

I'm banking on some anti-abortion laws coming about.

The sooner baby murdering is illegal the better.

The sooner baby murdering is illegal the better.

oh but it already is. however, killing a "fetus" is not, which is how it should be.

None of which is the same as making laws based on the Bible, which is prohibited by your Constitution.
Actually, it doesn't say that. It basically says the government won't specifically choose a religion. Religious freedom's allowed. The President isn't going to be heading the Church of America like the monarchs in England did and still do, I believe.

Actually, it doesn't say that. It basically says the government won't specifically choose a religion. Religious freedom's allowed. The President isn't going to be heading the Church of America like the monarchs in England did and still do, I believe.

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. I win :p



People, do remember-freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion.

Freedom of Religion.

Not Freedom FROM Religion.

Our basic, core laws are based on Christianity.

Freedom of Religion.

Not Freedom FROM Religion.

Our basic, core laws are based on Christianity.

Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.

Start naming laws that are only found in christianity.

Let me give a hint on where to look: Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli.

Freedom of Religion.

Not Freedom FROM Religion.

Our basic, core laws are based on Christianity.
Prove it. Find one instance in the constitution where God is mentioned.

And as time goes on people in America are becoming less religious by far. I honestly think the whole "moral majority" thing is a desperate resort by the religious right to hold power in a country that will soon have Christians as a minority.

An interesting study on religious trends in America (I'll probably start a thread on it later): http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/key_findings.htm

I'd suspect that this trend will slow as the strongly catholic hispanic population grows. After all, the Hispanic group is the group that is the most rapidly increasing in size, whilst it maintains a fairly strong Roman Catholic background.

Not only has Australia re-elected John Howard, the is a senator from the ominously named Family First party who wants a full inquiry into abortion in the country and various government ministers suggest that abortion is "too common." And I'm SURE the solution is making them difficult to access, not improving sex-ed or making the morning after pill (RU486) available... Or putting better contraceptive pills on the PBS. (I have to pay $40 for 3 months, or else get the kind that make you pimply, moody and fat...)
Also they compared the number of abortions to newborns; basically saying "if this many newborns died we'd be very concerned." Apples and oranges people...
And it's not like anyone is holding a gun to a woman's head and making her have an abortion...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=21745
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=21737

It's $35 per month in the states.

I'd suspect that this trend will slow as the strongly catholic hispanic population grows. After all, the Hispanic group is the group that is the most rapidly increasing in size, whilst it maintains a fairly strong Roman Catholic background.
Ah, tis true. I'm sure the percentage of white christians will continue to fall, whereas the percentage of Christian Latinos will stay pretty stable for a while.

It's currently projected that white people will fall below 50% of the US by 2050, in large part due to Mexican immigration (although the black percentage is rising too, just not as fast).

However, there seems to be widespread sentiment to halt or at least really slow down immigration.

Sorry, but the Pilgrims were Christians fleeing their country. Even after the constitution was created, Congress opened with a prayer. Think it's a mistake that IN GOD WE TRUST was put on all currency and UNDER GOD in the pledge of alliegence? Our Justice system used the Bible for swearing witnesses in court. Here [Hands Pie a clean Hankerchief]
those things were forced on the people in the 1950s officially as a counter for the "godless commies" and the relentless assault on the america people by the radical right began

and the pilgrims didnt found this country, far from it. shit it wasnt even the first colony. jamestown was in place years before plymouth

and you dont have to swear on the bible


thanks for playing you dont know jack

Freedom of Religion.

Not Freedom FROM Religion.

Our basic, core laws are based on Christianity.
start citing if you can, and also, you must cite laws specific to christianity

There is a big difference between latin american catholics and evangelical christians in the US. If you doubt it, look at Costa Rica where condoms are given out in schools, abortion is legal, blah blah blah.

Essentially, they're incredibly practical, unlike most here.

I think a factor in America's religion proportion is the internet. As of February, 2004, 204.3 million Americans (75 percent) have access to the internet from home. As this number increases (and/or as people begin to use the internet more wisely), more people will become informed of everything about their religion and that of others. It will provide a broad view of all the major issues that are split by religion and will hopefully open many minds. Unfortunately the majority of America uses the internet for porn, chat, bitching about movies on IMDb, eBaumsworld, email, sending email containing idiotic and irrelevant attachments, and doing "work".

Source: http://direct.www.nielsen-netratings.com/pr/pr_040318.pdf

I think a factor in America's religion proportion is the internet. As of February, 2004, 204.3 million Americans (75 percent) have access to the internet from home. As this number increases (and/or as people begin to use the internet more wisely), more people will become informed of everything about their religion and that of others. It will provide a broad view of all the major issues that are split by religion and will hopefully open many minds. Unfortunately the majority of America uses the internet for porn, chat, bitching about movies on IMDb, eBaumsworld, email, sending email containing idiotic and irrelevant attachments, and doing "work".

Source: http://direct.www.nielsen-netratings.com/pr/pr_040318.pdf

Hey, for the record, IMDb helps me big time in one of my classes :p

I'd suspect that this trend will slow as the strongly catholic hispanic population grows. After all, the Hispanic group is the group that is the most rapidly increasing in size, whilst it maintains a fairly strong Roman Catholic background.

Ah, tis true. I'm sure the percentage of white christians will continue to fall, whereas the percentage of Christian Latinos will stay pretty stable for a while.

I'd just like to point out here -- Catholics and Christians are not the same thing. Just a little penny before I go to bed... I know it's not pertinant or helpful to the discussion, just thought someone needed to say it. :)

start citing if you can, and also, you must cite laws specific to christianity

Specific to Christianity...

Example, homosexual sex used to be against the law until about 5 years because it was considered sodomy as it was in the Bible as well. See the Book of Corinthians.

Murdering and killing is considered to be wrong. Look at the 5th commandment.

Theft and stealing are wrong. 7th commandment

To deny that current marriage policies and laws are not based in Christianity is ridiculous.

Hell, look at the Declaration of Independence. Look at the back of coins and on other US currency. Say the Pledge of Allegiance. Sing God Bless America. The Ten Commandments were proudly displayed on government property and in schools.

Slowly but steadily, we are being pulled away by the Christian roots that we based many of our core laws upon.

I recommend that you read Christianity and the Constitution by John Eidsmoe

It's $35 per month in the states.
:eek: That explains the high rates of teen pregnancy. That and abstinence only/focussed sex-ed.

Slowly but steadily, we are being pulled away by the Christian roots that we based many of our core laws upon.
Don't worry, you guys are winning at the moment.

There is a big difference between latin american catholics and evangelical christians in the US. If you doubt it, look at Costa Rica where condoms are given out in schools, abortion is legal, blah blah blah.

Essentially, they're incredibly practical, unlike most here.
Good point. I would hope they become the dominant religious voice in America, as opposed to the hateful rhetoric spewed by the evangelicals.

I believe that Roe v. Wade should be overturned... equating right to abortion to right of privacy is just to shakey.

A much more sensible decision should be made and sensible laws should be inacted to protect abortion, with caveats of course.

I know, I know, asking politicians to do anything sensible is an exorcise in futility.

Huh?! Could have sworn that link was to the Wisconsin mess!

Oh well, here's the CNN story: Wisconsin district to teach more than evolution (http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/11/06/evolution.schools.ap/)

Says the School superintendant: "The science curriculum should not be totally inclusive of just one scientific theory".

Somebody please explain to this woman the difference between scientific theories and religious propoganda.

http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed=M7tNO.p_0TqT&csz=grantsburg%2C+wi&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=

Grantsburg...never heard of it. Check the map above and you'll see why most people probably haven't. Northern WI (only slightly moreso than southern) is dotted with tiny, barely incorporated towns, so I guess I'm not surprised that one district in such a placeis going to start teaching this drivel. There really are some backwards areas of that state.

I love how this woman has n oidea what constitutes a scientific theory...but, that's an administrator for you.

Murdering and killing is considered to be wrong. Look at the 5th commandment.

Theft and stealing are wrong. 7th commandment

Common sense. Christian beliefs are not required to comprehend that depriving another person of something is wrong. Are you the sort who has the bizarre notion that no morality can exist without God in the picture?

To deny that current marriage policies and laws are not based in Christianity is ridiculous.

Um, why?

Hell, look at the Declaration of Independence.

It was common at the time to cite God, and many of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Hey, check these boards, many non-Christians invoke God's name on a daily basis.

Look at the back of coins and on other US currency. Say the Pledge of Allegiance.

Religious phrases added in the 50s to differentiate us from the Godless commies do not constitute proof of a history rooted in Christianity (merely of a mass ideological panic).

Sing God Bless America. The Ten Commandments were proudly displayed on government property and in schools.

Ooh, a common song nowehere enshrined by the government, and a general claim with no proof whatsoever. You're batting 1000 here.

I'm banking on some anti-abortion laws coming about.

They already are - note the new law to protect unborn children from criminal acts, which provides for criminal prosecution if your crime brings about the death of an unborn child. No-one can argue with that, really.

But, what's the betting on this being used to pressure medics involved with abortion?

The abortion issue is a touchstone for the religious right, but all surveys show that around 60-70% of Americans support a woman's right to choose.

Sorry, but the Pilgrims were Christians fleeing their country. Even after the constitution was created, Congress opened with a prayer. Think it's a mistake that IN GOD WE TRUST was put on all currency and UNDER GOD in the pledge of alliegence? Our Justice system used the Bible for swearing witnesses in court. Here [Hands Pie a clean Hankerchief]

The pilgrims were one group of colonists out of litterally thousands. More people came for economic freedom than for religious. Just look at the purpose of each of the colonies at the time. If it wasn't a prison colony or a financial one, it wasn't a European colony.

The constitution was written and our nation founded by deists. Only one of the founding fathers openly espoused christianity as his religion (though many aggreed with much of its philosophy).

In God We Trust was not added to currency until 1957, and was part of a backlash of fundamentalism that occured in the late 50s as a direct response to the growing civil rights unrest that came to a head a decade later. In the same vein, under god was added to the pledge of allegience.

Justices and witnesses are not required by law to swear on a bible. It is unecessary. Purgery is illegal with or without your outmoded ritual. Only in a handful of areas is it even still done. Mostly that is just a movie thing.

Try again.

I used to always say America was slowly and surely moving to the left, but lately that doesn't seem to be the case. States left and right are banning gay marriage, Wisconsin is now teaching God in Science class, Texas health textbooks now being forced to define marriage as between a man and a woman, Bush's re-election for chrissake...

Bush is gonna appoint a few Supreme Court justices. Three of the nine are already ardent anti-abortionists. Just takes two more, and liberals Ginsburg and Stevens are looking pretty old.

So, how long till Roe v. Wade is repealed and the coathangers brought back?
i really, really, REALLY hope that they try to recriminalize abortion. modern feminism could use a shot in the arm, and nothing will improve the status of women's rights in America more than an attempt to recriminalize abortion. feminism has become sleepy, weak, and more focused on acoustic guitar music than on actual efforts for equality...if they tried to actually take away rights the maybe the movement would get off its collective ass.

Freedom of Religion.

Not Freedom FROM Religion.

Our basic, core laws are based on Christianity.
lol, wrong. our basic beliefs are ones shared by pretty much all religions everywhere; the ideas that killing is bad and stealing is wrong are not Christian inventions (and, in fact, Christianity specifically undermines such morality in many cases), and our Founders were smart enough to see that Christianity is the last place anybody should be looking for moral guidance.