NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm currently reading The Arabian Nights and have reached the many stories of Sinbad the Seaman. Up until now I've thought Sinbad was a pretty good person. He's unlucky as hell and not very bright, but a good person. Then I reached story number four, and suddenly I want to vomit.

He's reached a city where when a husband/wife dies the living spouse is buried with them in this one giant tomb that is used for all burials. He has even taken a wife (He was married before he knew of this rather disturbing custom). Now, his wife dies and they make to bury him with her. He refuses, they force him down the tomb with one weeks food supply (as was the custom), and he's like "Dear God, this sucks." Now he's pretty much praying for death (how would you react if you'e buried alive with thousands of corpses?) but not willingly succumbing (He's still eating the food he was buried with and is even making an effort to ration so as to stay alive longer). When he's almost out of food something good (for him) happens. Here's where I suddenly want to vomit. Another man has died and they bury his still living wife with him and Sinbad, noticing the couple being buried, takes a leg from one of the thousands of corpses lying around and kills the still living woman. He then takes the food she had, as well as all the clothing she was buried with (It was the custom to bury the women fully dressed, and that included all the gold and diamonds and rubies and such that the rich wore back then). So, he as now killed a woman and robbed her corpse. He then does this again and again, killing dozens of people and robbing their deceased bodies as soon as their buried with their dead spouse.

Want to know the kicker? The entire time that he's down there he keeps expecting God to save him. He has just killed dozens of people and expects God to be on his side.

Dear God, how could this man live with himself?

But isn't that always the case with religious zealots? That no matter what depths they'll stoop to, they can still justify it and still expect forgiveness and help from their God?

But Sinbad wasn't a religous zealot. He was a Muslim and believed in God, but no more than you or I (Well, at least not more than I. I don't know about you). Nowhere did he think that killing the people was what God wanted.

Perceptions change also. Take TRON for example. When I first saw it, I rooted for the good guys,

Now after working tech Support and data Security... the good guys were nothing but Hackers and Viruses. :D

The last time I checked, Tron was a security program designed to seek out and stop viruses. It just so happened that the virus was actually the program he was meant to monitor and protect.

According to legend, it is supposed to be a cliff-hanger or something. So If he finds an impluasible/gross way out, then it's perfectly understandible.

What's supposed to be a cliffhanger? The Sinbad story?

Perceptions change also. Take TRON for example. When I first saw it, I rooted for the good guys,

Now after working tech Support and data Security... the good guys were nothing but Hackers and Viruses. :D

Nope, you'd have no job without those people!

What's supposed to be a cliffhanger? The Sinbad story?

Yes.

How is it a cliffhanger? I've already read past where he gets out of the tomb and there's three more stories after this one (Sinabd the Seaman has Seven Stories, this one is the Fourth)

maybe he's a sociopath.

How is it a cliffhanger? I've already read past where he gets out of the tomb and there's three more stories after this one (Sinabd the Seaman has Seven Stories, this one is the Fourth)

you weren't threatened with death or something if you didn't please the caliph and make him want to invite you back to the bed chamber for at least 1,001 nights "Shahrazad".

Please read up on things before asking me such questions.

maybe he's a sociopath.


He may not have been before going in the tomb....

You have seriously lost me. Shahrazad is the one telling the story of Sinbad telling his stories. Neither she, nor the circumstances surrounding her marriage to the King (Not the Caliph), have anything to do with Sinbads predicament. Where are you going with this?

He may not have been before going in the tomb....

You know, I did not consider that.

You have seriously lost me. Shahrazad is the one telling the story of Sinbad telling his stories. Neither she, nor the circumstances surrounding her marriage to the King (Not the Caliph), have anything to do with Sinbads predicament. Where are you going with this?

1. I think it was the caliph. Are you reading the Burton translation, or some other one? I can't say for sure since it was a long time ago for me.

2. Think about why she was telling these stories in the first place.

Is Shahrazad a different translation? I've always seen it as "Scheherazade".

Women were worth less than dirt in those times. You may prefer a current children's version with a different escape, but the truth is that, back then, people just didn't care about women.

Fortunately times have changed, for the better, I say. But we still should remember that back then things were very different and, in many ways, worse.

I'm currently reading The Arabian Nights and have reached the many stories of Sinbad the Seaman. Up until now I've thought Sinbad was a pretty good person. He's unlucky as hell and not very bright, but a good person. Then I reached story number four, and suddenly I want to vomit.

He's reached a city where when a husband/wife dies the living spouse is buried with them in this one giant tomb that is used for all burials. He has even taken a wife (He was married before he knew of this rather disturbing custom). Now, his wife dies and they make to bury him with her. He refuses, they force him down the tomb with one weeks food supply (as was the custom), and he's like "Dear God, this sucks." Now he's pretty much praying for death (how would you react if you'e buried alive with thousands of corpses?) but not willingly succumbing (He's still eating the food he was buried with and is even making an effort to ration so as to stay alive longer). When he's almost out of food something good (for him) happens. Here's where I suddenly want to vomit. Another man has died and they bury his still living wife with him and Sinbad, noticing the couple being buried, takes a leg from one of the thousands of corpses lying around and kills the still living woman. He then takes the food she had, as well as all the clothing she was buried with (It was the custom to bury the women fully dressed, and that included all the gold and diamonds and rubies and such that the rich wore back then). So, he as now killed a woman and robbed her corpse. He then does this again and again, killing dozens of people and robbing their deceased bodies as soon as their buried with their dead spouse.

Want to know the kicker? The entire time that he's down there he keeps expecting God to save him. He has just killed dozens of people and expects God to be on his side.

Dear God, how could this man live with himself?

It is survival. People will stoop very low to survive. The people he killed where going to starve to death anyway. And they where members of the city that put him in the tomb. I think what the people of the city did to him is worse than what he did to the people in the tomb.

Is Shahrazad a different translation? I've always seen it as "Scheherazade".

I think - and this is a while ago - my burton copy has it as shahrazad. What the transliteration should be, I don't know. In any event there is supposed ton be some sort of pun involving her name. But i don't know what it is.

I think - and this is a while ago - my burton copy has it as shahrazad. What the transliteration should be, I don't know. In any event there is supposed ton be some sort of pun involving her name. But i don't know what it is.

I like Scheherazade better. It sounds cooler, in my opinion.

As gruesome as the story (and I know it's a story) is, I have a question.. In that situation, if you were buried alive under those circumstances - what would you do? It's easy to shudder and claim that you would never do that, but if your only other option was to starve while you watched other people eat, I think you would find yourself at least mightily tempted to do the same. I would do it. The survival instinct forces people to do things that they would say they "would rather die before doing" an awful lot of the time.... And I assume that people who believe in a god would hope that their deity was there for them - even if they had to do distasteful things to stay alive.

So what would you do?

As gruesome as the story (and I know it's a story) is, I have a question.. In that situation, if you were buried alive under those circumstances - what would you do? It's easy to shudder and claim that you would never do that, but if your only other option was to starve while you watched other people eat, I think you would find yourself at least mightily tempted to do the same. I would do it. The survival instinct forces people to do things that they would say they "would rather die before doing" an awful lot of the time.... And I assume that people who believe in a god would hope that their deity was there for them - even if they had to do distasteful things to stay alive.

So what would you do?
I'd probably strave, because I wouldn't have the initiative to think of killing someone with a leg.

Also, isn;t Caliph just a Muslim term for King?

You should read some of the other stories, like the one about the chest pulled out of the river with a woman's body cut into pieces, and the story within the story of the husband who killed her because of some gossip. Hell, there is sexism and racism galore in that book, as well as lots of sex, drugs and ummm...yeah, rock and roll.

It's a little more graphic than a lot of modern or contemporary literature. You might be surprised to find, though, that a lot of our own fairy tales were just as gory and graphic as the Alf Layla Wa Layla. For example, in the original Cinderella, the sisters cut off their toes and heel, respectively, to fit into the slipper, but the blood gives them away, and the stepmother is made to dance at the wedding in red hot iron shoes until she falls down dead.

The brothers Grimm sanitized a lot of what was once passed down by memory and word of mouth. People have always had a fascination with the morbid. As for cannibalism, don't look at that story and think that there are no flies on us. Look at Hansel and Gretl, but even beyond that, remember that there isn't a culture on earth that hasn't got the stain of cannibalism in the past.

Survivor. :D

It's a little more graphic than a lot of modern or contemporary literature. You might be surprised to find, though, that a lot of our own fairy tales were just as gory and graphic as the Alf Layla Wa Layla. For example, in the original Cinderella, the sisters cut off their toes and heel, respectively, to fit into the slipper, but the blood gives them away, and the stepmother is made to dance at the wedding in red hot iron shoes until she falls down dead.

Really? Do you have the book that has the original Cinderella story in it? Sounds interesting.

...it is just a story.

DeaconDave, I'm reading the Burton translation because it was the first one to English (I always like to go back to the Original). It was a simple King, not the Caliph. The Caliph is kinda like the Muslim equal of the Pope, the leaderof the entire religion. The Caliph is in many of the stories, but he's not wed to Shahrazad. Also, I know why she's telling the stories. Even if I didn't, you've already said it in this thread. I still don't see what relevance it has. (For those who don't know, here's the quick summary. The Kings wife cheats on him, his brothers wife cheats on his brother, so he thinks that all women are untrustworthy and evil. So, he takes a new bride every night and has her killed every morning so that they never get the chance to betray him. Shahrazad, the daughter of the Kings top advisor, gets an idea and has her father bring her to the king. Every night, after the king sleeps with her but before he kills her, she tells him a story but holds back the ending until the next night. That way he can't kill her in the morning since he wants to hear the ending. Eventually, after 1,001 nights, he pardons her forever and stops killing his new brides)

Iztatepopotla, he killed men to. Not just women. Also, God had forbid killing women just as much as men, and the Death penalty was in place for murdering women just like there was for men.

Pathlesspaganism (and everybody else who said it was survival): You never once consider working together with the people buried alive? Joining forces to share their food and work together to find a way out of the tomb (Which Sinbad does do, but would have done sooner if he had many people searching with him.

Sheilanagig, I had read the other stories. But, if you noticed, people feel guilt in those stories. The man who killed his wife because of gossip went to the Caliph and begged to be killed himself because he found out that the gossip was incorrect. The man who had his wife beaten horribly and (literally) thrown out of the house (He wanted to have her killed but his cleaning woman begged him to spare her life) for letting a man kiss her on the cheek married her again when she met his dad (A king)

It's a little more graphic than a lot of modern or contemporary literature. You might be surprised to find, though, that a lot of our own fairy tales were just as gory and graphic as the Alf Layla Wa Layla. For example, in the original Cinderella, the sisters cut off their toes and heel, respectively, to fit into the slipper, but the blood gives them away, and the stepmother is made to dance at the wedding in red hot iron shoes until she falls down dead.



I think you're mixing up your fairy tales, it is Snow Whites step-mother that is made to dance in theb red hot slippers.

Pathlesspaganism (and everybody else who said it was survival): You never once consider working together with the people buried alive? Joining forces to share their food and work together to find a way out of the tomb (Which Sinbad does do, but would have done sooner if he had many people searching with him.

But think about it. You're in this tomb with all these dead people. It probably stinks really bad. You see someone come in and, being a piratey person of the sea, you think "Mine!" when you see the jewels and food. "But what do I kill them with?" you say to yourself. Hmmm... that guy doesn't need his leg anymore....

To the people of the town it was tradition, like going to church on Sundays or running around naked in the woods on Wednesday. Besides, if you let everyone live, then there's more people to split the food between. Since he killed people and was able to gather a larger supply of food, he was able to split it in larger portions later when more people joined his cause of getting out of the tomb.

But someone said something earlier about not having the initiative to beat someone with a leg. Personally, I couldn't do it. That would feel weird, wouldn't it? Flinging a leg around at somebody...

You should read some of the other stories, like the one about the chest pulled out of the river with a woman's body cut into pieces, and the story within the story of the husband who killed her because of some gossip. Hell, there is sexism and racism galore in that book, as well as lots of sex, drugs and ummm...yeah, rock and roll.

It's a little more graphic than a lot of modern or contemporary literature. You might be surprised to find, though, that a lot of our own fairy tales were just as gory and graphic as the Alf Layla Wa Layla. For example, in the original Cinderella, the sisters cut off their toes and heel, respectively, to fit into the slipper, but the blood gives them away, and the stepmother is made to dance at the wedding in red hot iron shoes until she falls down dead.

The brothers Grimm sanitized a lot of what was once passed down by memory and word of mouth. People have always had a fascination with the morbid. As for cannibalism, don't look at that story and think that there are no flies on us. Look at Hansel and Gretl, but even beyond that, remember that there isn't a culture on earth that hasn't got the stain of cannibalism in the past.

Actually, the Grimms didn't sanitize the stories -- I have a wonderfully gory collection. The stories' basic premise was if you are sweet and obedient to your parents and to God, no matter how horrible your life, you come out on top.... and if you are disobedient or sinful, you die a horrible death. It was more modern translations and, of course, Disney that did that.

Cinderella' stepsisters' eyes were pecked out by birds too. ;)

Really? Do you have the book that has the original Cinderella story in it? Sounds interesting.

I remember reading it when I was very young, like 12. I found it in a small-town school library, of all places. You'd be amazed at what's out there. But then again, there's plenty on the net, too.





Sheilanagig, I had read the other stories. But, if you noticed, people feel guilt in those stories. The man who killed his wife because of gossip went to the Caliph and begged to be killed himself because he found out that the gossip was incorrect. The man who had his wife beaten horribly and (literally) thrown out of the house (He wanted to have her killed but his cleaning woman begged him to spare her life) for letting a man kiss her on the cheek married her again when she met his dad (A king)

I think you're mixing up your fairy tales, it is Snow Whites step-mother that is made to dance in theb red hot slippers.




You're probably right. It's been such a long time, though, since I've read the original versions. And you're right about the man with the wife and the apples. He felt guilty once he found out that it was all a big misunderstanding, and he was spared, I believe, from death. I think his father begged for death too, claiming the deed was his. It's one long piece of literature, and I've never gotten around to finishing it. I prefer the more explicit translation for the fact that it is more faithful to the original.

Not to shatter anyone's willing suspension of disbelief here, but am I right in thinking the original question revolved around the stability of mind of a fictional character, to whit, Sinbad?
Is it too boring simply to suggest that the character of Sinbad is not very well created? That characterization was never what made the stories popular in the first place? That the reason his actions seem unbelievable is that, psychologically, they sometimes are?

To the people of the town it was tradition, like going to church on Sundays or running around naked in the woods on Wednesday. Besides, if you let everyone live, then there's more people to split the food between. Since he killed people and was able to gather a larger supply of food, he was able to split it in larger portions later when more people joined his cause of getting out of the tomb.

Ah, but what about after he's out of the tomb? You know, when he has fruit trees and animals around to survive off of. Cause after he escapes he still goes back into the tomb almost daily to kill new arrivals.

FutureExistence, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. You're pretty much saying "It's a story, it doesn't make sense, stop analysing his mentality and just keep reading the adventures." right?

The last time I checked, Tron was a security program designed to seek out and stop viruses. It just so happened that the virus was actually the program he was meant to monitor and protect.

I wonder if he had a brother named Troff?

..that may only make sense if you speak geek.

FutureExistence, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. You're pretty much saying "It's a story, it doesn't make sense, stop analysing his mentality and just keep reading the adventures." right?
Yeah, pretty much.

Ah, gotcha.

Well, if you look at this from the point of view that the "victims" of Sinbad had already accepted that they were going to die a slow horrible death, you could say that he was actually doing them a favour. I would much rather die from a blow to the head than starvation, thirst or any of the wonderful infections you could pick up from all the putrefying bodies.

As for going back and raiding the tomb - why not? His "victims" were already dead or going to die horribly. Keep in mind that this story was set in a culture where if you had little money, you also had little/no food and survival was his focus, that and profit. :p

All in all, I think that Sinbad was performing a service for these poor victims of religion and if he was paid well - so what? These days he would be a celebrated entrepeneur :cool:

It's not Trigun, what do you expect?

Amazing the things they don't show you in the Disney film, eh?

Amazing the things they don't show you in the Disney film, eh?
Amazing the things that are [allegedly] shown in Disney films too.

Amazing the things that are [allegedly] shown in Disney films too.


I watched Shrek 2 the other day .... hillarious! Puss in Boots just cracked me up.

If you want some really messed up stories, try reading the bible through. Genesis is a good place to find the really sick ones.

It's all about perspective. They'd die anyway, right? And their death would be one of long, slow starvation.. Sinbad was doing them a favor by ending their suffering, and he was able to live longer himself.

From another perspective.. survival of the fittest. He was able to kill the other people buried in the tomb, so he was entitled to their food.

From yet another perspective, it's just a freaking story.

Take your pick. xvx